Justification: Composite Crossbow

[ZerglingOne]

Most of us that have played D&D are aware that bows can add your strength modifier as damage to an attack. I say why not crossbows too? When you think about it, a crossbow is just a bow that can store energy for a period of time that can be released by pulling a trigger. The justification for a composite longbow is no different, it has a much higher pull strength to it imparted by the materials used in its construction, and as such, only people of higher strength can use it effectively. Why should this be any different from a crossbow that takes 14 or 16 strength to operate? Shouldn't it do just as much damage as a similar composite longbow?

Any thoughts?

[T.G. Oskar]

Most of us that have played D&D are aware that bows can add your strength modifier as damage to an attack. I say why not crossbows too? When you think about it, a crossbow is just a bow that can store energy for a period of time that can be released by pulling a trigger. The justification for a composite longbow is no different, it has a much higher pull strength to it imparted by the materials used in its construction, and as such, only people of higher strength can use it effectively. Why should this be any different from a crossbow that takes 14 or 16 strength to operate? Shouldn't it do just as much damage as a similar composite longbow?

Any thoughts?

This would fit better in the roleplaying section, unless the intention is to make a homebrewed "composite" crossbow later on. However, the mechanics differ.

In a bow, you draw the string and use your Strength to make the pull, while making the Dexterity to aim. In a composite bow, the components of the bow (say, horn and sinew) make the bow much more difficult to pull, but with the required Strength the released energy is much stronger, so it's easy to justify the inclusion of Strength to damage.

On a crossbow, however, that's not the case. In most crossbows, you need to make the pull as part of the loading mechanism; in more modern crossbows (and not even so modern; the cranequin didn't even needed a person to pull since it had a rack and pinion system, or so says the Wiki) you don't even need to be strong to pull it. The mechanism is designed so that, in theory, it will always release the same amount of force. Crossbows whose prod (the arc) is made of composite materials will not exactly require more Strength to pull, but rather a much more efficient mechanism to pull; in fact, the loading system for a regular crossbow is just as efficient. You don't really need strength to pull a crossbow with a loading mechanism, which is what you'd expect from D&D crossbows.

However, and much as Crossbow Sniper shows, you *can* add Dexterity to the damage of the crossbow. The idea is that, with the stored energy just where it was needed, you can technically aim at a better spot and deal much more damage.

So...there's no need to use Strength to use a crossbow, specifically one that has a loading mechanism. Now, if you're talking about a Gastrophetes, then you can quite enough justify use of Strength; a composite prod Gastrophetes would work like a crossbow but allowing the use of strength. The catch? It would be an exotic weapon (since to use it, you need to support it on the stomach, hence the "gastro" reference) and that defeats the entire purpose of making a "composite" crossbow. Gastrophetes, as far as they can be seen, aren't so easy to use; in either case, they resemble bows more than crossbows in terms that you need to actually pull the bowstring instead of using a system to pull it off.

Now, if you want to justify a "composite" crossbow, you could say that you can create a crossbow that has a sturdier, hardier prod and thus required a Strength check to pull as part of the loading action (move for light, full round for heavy); if you fail the Strength check, you fail to load the bolt. It's...truly complex, however, and perhaps won't be of much utility.

[Ashtagon]

Crunch-wise, I see no reason not to allow it. Bows are far weaker in RAW than in historical reality anyway. The entire section needs a total revamp, tbh. Beware of a high-strength character loading the party's bows and then handing them out like confetti.

Fluff-wise, some crossbows actually were of composite construction anyway. This can be clearly seen in this drawing, for example: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/DaVinci_Crossbow.JPG (then again, just because he drew it doesn't mean it was made. But the concept certainly existed).

Material technology-wise, the problem with the concept is that, until modern technology levels, materials that have the appropriate variation in tensile strength and were also strong enough to withstand the kind of tension involved in crossbows simply didn't exist (unless you made the weapon so bulky it would not be man-portable).

Really, the "composite bow" is a slight misnomer. What actually gives these bows their greater potential is that they are also recurve bows (traditional bows are not), and it is this recurve (along with the material tensile strength) that creates the higher strength. No crossbow design, either manufactured or drawn by those who would have appropriate technical competence, has ever had this feature.

[Radar]

While it is true, that crossbows allways fire bolts with the same energy, i can see them being build with different users in mind. Even if in medieval times, there were no proper materials, most fantasy settings have something suitable.

Crunch might look like this: for every +1 to damage, there would be a +2 to required Str (starting with 10 for +0) to load the crossbow. For example:
Strenghtened light crossbow (medium): 1d8+3; minimal Str 16.

[sigurd]

Normally the compensation you have to pay for really heavy crossbows is not strength but time. Elaborate methods of readying a crossbow involve windlasses and other mechanical advantage mechanisms to create great pull.

The simplest and possibly most successful aid (I'm only talking from impressions here) is the belt hook and foot loop. The front of the crossbow has a loop for your foot to hold it to the ground. The firer has a specialized hook hanging from his belt set at a precise length. First the firer crouches and puts his foot in the loop. Second he sets the hook to the firing string. When he straightens up both his legs pull back the firing string. He then slides it off the hook and resets the crossbow.

Sigurd

[Ashtagon]

Normally the compensation you have to pay for really heavy crossbows is not strength but time. Elaborate methods of readying a crossbow involve windlasses and other mechanical advantage mechanisms to create great pull.

The simplest and possibly most successful aid (I'm only talking from impressions here) is the belt hook and foot loop. The front of the crossbow has a loop for your foot to hold it to the ground. The firer has a specialized hook hanging from his belt set at a precise length. First the firer crouches and puts his foot in the loop. Second he sets the hook to the firing string. When he straightens up both his legs pull back the firing string. He then slides it off the hook and resets the crossbow.

Sigurd

Correct.

Note that the light crossbow already includes the foot loop and hook.

The heavy crossbow instead has a winch mechanism to reload it. The PHB illustration describes this as for "reloading", but strictly speaking, it's for drawing back the string.

Only the hand crossbow is actually reloadable purely by hand without special mechanical assistance.

[Knaight]

Normally the compensation you have to pay for really heavy crossbows is not strength but time. Elaborate methods of readying a crossbow involve windlasses and other mechanical advantage mechanisms to create great pull.

But a stronger person can pull back a stronger crossbow without a mechanical aid, or with a lesser but quicker mechanical aid. The level of strength in the person determines the time taken if the crossbow is built with an aid that is as light as they need, so strength bonus makes perfect sense. It just represents a heavier crossbow, and someone with less strength could still use it, just with a longer reload.

[Ashtagon]

A crossbow that requires more strength would also be physically bigger, unless you start proposing fantasy materials technology. And inventing new materials technology then raises the question of why isn't that being used to make regular bows, or springs, or kickstart an entire industrial revolution...

I suppose you could say a guy with a sufficiently Strength can grab a heavy crossbow, strip out the windlass and install the footstrap of a light crossbow, and use the reloading times of a light crossbow (or mutatis mutandis, use the reloading times of a hand crossbow when using a light crossbow). But really, the levels of strength such a feat would require is quite extraordinary, even in an era when a 60-lb draw weight longbow was considered low-to-middling.

[Latronis]

you can easily accomplish 'quite extraordinary' (read superhuman) strength though.

So a high str req heavy crossbow reloads as light w\ rapid reload seems like a nice kind of xbow to use if you have the strength. Though given most with the strength would have martial weapon prof you'll probably just use a composite bow instead