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Tyger
2010-02-27, 07:24 AM
We're going to be running a high level one off game, playing at level 20. One of my players has asked for a decent gish build, and unfortunately, I have zero experience with gishes in general (our group usually doesn't over optimize). As this is his chance to play with PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER!!! (and without the itty bitty living space), I would like to help him play something that kicks butt.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Eldritch Knight is a good stand-by, but I have a feeling we can do a lot better than that. We have access to almost all the books between us, and anything in them is GtG. No Dragon magazine stuff though, just gets too cheesy too fast.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-27, 07:36 AM
Well, the best gishes are generally Cleric and Druid, followed by Ardent. :smalltongue:

Amphetryon
2010-02-27, 07:36 AM
Sorcerer 4/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 5. :smallcool:

magic9mushroom
2010-02-27, 07:43 AM
Sorcerer 4/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 5. :smallcool:

No 9ths. :smallfrown:

Also, you're using Primary Contact, right?

Melamoto
2010-02-27, 07:43 AM
Sorcerer 6/Fighter 1/Abjurant Champion (CMage) 4/Knight Phantom (Eberron's "Five Nations") 10 is a good one. You get light armor casting, 18th level Sorc casting, 17 BAB, and all the goodies of the Champion and Knight. You can take the Battle Caster feat (CArc) to get medium armor casting.

Alternatively, you could go for the same build, but replace the Knight Phantom and Fighter with Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327). Puts you down to 16th level Sorc casting, and you'll have to take the Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) variant if you want to cast in light armor. However, it gets you some very nice class features, including the ability to take extra actions, mimic time stop, and have a constant 50% miss chance for all attacks against you.

KellKheraptis
2010-02-27, 07:49 AM
9th level spells + 3.0 haste. Wizard 4/Spelldancer 2/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5 using either flaws or respec of racial weapons as an elf (as spelled out in Complete Warrior). You won't miss 1 AC or a - to Spot and Listen, as you get free Alertness and a free +2 for being an Elf. Go Elven Generalist, and snag a familiar that shores up a weak point (since the Hummingbird is out, sadly). 3rd level will double it's benefit for you. Enjoy always winning initiative, never being grappled, and always laughing at melee as they struggle with at least two miss chances (assuming you follow standard gish buffing of mirror image or it's greater cousin).

Amphetryon
2010-02-27, 07:58 AM
What is Primary Contact?

Greenish
2010-02-27, 08:10 AM
We're going to be running a high level one off game, playing at level 20. One of my players has asked for a decent gish build, and unfortunately, I have zero experience with gishes in general (our group usually doesn't over optimize).Straight Duskblade?

playswithfire
2010-02-27, 08:54 AM
Just to be different, one based on bard


1 bard
2 bard
3 bard
4 bard
5 crusader
6 spellsword
7 battle dancer
8 crusader
9 bard
10 bard
11 sublime chord
12 abjurant champion
13 abjurant champion
14 abjurant champion
15 abjurant champion
16 jade phoenix mage
17 jade phoenix mage
18 jade phoenix mage
19 jade phoenix mage
20 jade phoenix mage

BAB: 18
Saves: 12/9/14
Casting: 9th level bard/sorcerer spells
Caster level: 17
Maneuvers: 8 known, 6 readied, 3 granted (5 2nd level, 5th level, 6th level, 7th level)
Stances: 3 (1st level, 3rd level, 6th level) + jade phoenix stance
Initiator level: 13

Only required feats: Combat Casting
Probable feats: Practiced Spellcaster, Snowflake Wardance
Possible feats: Song of the White Raven, Arcane Strike

It does take the one level of battledancer, though that's not strictly necessary if it gets banned. Gives you the option of going unarmored and getting the CHA to AC to go with a nice Greater Mage Armor and Shield. But it can be replaced with another level of bard or crusader and you can take advantage of spellsword's lowering of ASF

KellKheraptis
2010-02-27, 08:59 AM
Nice one! If the Bladesinger by ErrantX is allowed from on here, a good build is Wizard 4/Spelldancer 2/Heartfire Fanner 3/Warblade 1/Bladesinger 10. Gets 16 BAB, 17 CL, and with Song of the White Raven an effective Bard level of 20 for Bardic Music. A hair of Inspire Courage optimization (i.e. two feats) will get you to +10 to hit and damage just from that. Roll in Knowledge Devotion, persistent wraithstrike from Spelldancer, Lady's Gambit, and GMW, and you're looking at easily a +30 to hit touch AC, even power attacking away all your BAB for damage. Oh, and each use of Lady's Gambit (@+10 to hit and damage) will cost you 20 hp, so good to pick up a renewable source of temp hp. All together though, you'll be one bad bard in melee, without a single level of bard :P

Eldariel
2010-02-27, 10:07 AM
Sorcerer 4/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 5. :smallcool:

Make that a Wizard and it'll be 100% better.

KellKheraptis
2010-02-27, 10:15 AM
What is Primary Contact?

A feat from Cityscape allowing you to exceed your skill rank cap by 1 (or the one setting up the feat that allows such, can't remember which).

Eldariel
2010-02-27, 10:16 AM
A feat from Cityscape allowing you to exceed your skill rank cap by 1 (or the one setting up the feat that allows such, can't remember which).

Primary Contact is just that; the prerequisite you're thinking of is Favored.

KellKheraptis
2010-02-27, 10:25 AM
Primary Contact is just that; the prerequisite you're thinking of is Favored.

Cool, had it right the first time then :P To the OP, that JPM build is one of the simpler ways of owning face with ToB and arcane magic. There was one floating around called the King of Combustion that hit the same raw numbers but was focused upon dealing mass fire damage through the spell Combust. Also, if you find it (Something like Wizard 6/Ruathar 3/Warblade 1/JPM 10, though the previous probably works just as well while getting WAY better AC), something I would add is Elven Spell Lore, so that way your Combust spell deals something other than fire damage. I'm partial to Hellfire, just for the coolness factor of still burninating, but the sky is the limit :D

Tyger
2010-02-27, 10:49 AM
Wow, thanks for the great responses here folks. I knew about the EK / AC builds, and had previously suggested those to him. The Swiftblade wasn't on my radar, and that seems right up his alley, as he's always loved high mobility characters.

But the Jade Phoenix Mage has taken the cake in my opinion. What a great class, both mechanically and fluff wise. Nice suggestions there all!

Thanks again all.

BenTheJester
2010-02-27, 11:06 AM
Duskblade 13/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7

Requires you to be an Illumian with the Improved Sigil(Krau) and to get a bunch of useless feats, but damn it pays off.

A good build would be:
F Skill Focus(Spellcraft)
F Improved Sigil(Krau)
1 Power Attack
2 Combat Casting
3 Knowledge Devotion
6 Spell Focus(Abjuration)
9 Arcane Strike
12 Greater Spell Focus(Abjuration)
15 Extend SLA
18 Ability Focus(Warding) or Extra Spell

Geddoe
2010-02-27, 07:15 PM
Generally, if you can persuade you DM to go for it, Knight Phantom levels are superior to Eldritch Knight levels. Better hd, and class features.

Soranar
2010-02-27, 07:49 PM
Race: Gray Elf
Alignment: any

template: necropolitan (for d12 HD and to ignore Con)

STATS (32 pts buy)

STR 6
DEX 20
CON -
INT 20
WIS 8
CHA 8

Elves get rapier proficiency which qualifies for Swiftblade. Necropolitan fixes your hitpoints to decent levels for a wizard.

ACF: Fighter bonus feats at level 1, 5 (From SRD)

1 Wizard Dodge bonus feat: Mobility
2 Wizard
3 Wizard weapon finesse
4 Wizard
5 Wizard Bonus feat: martial study
6 Swiftblade practiced spellcaster
7 Swiftblade
8 Swiftblade
9 Swiftblade Martial Stance
10 Swiftblade
11 Swiftblade
12 Swiftblade Shadow Blade (add Dex to Damage with proper weapon)
13 Swiftblade
14 Swiftblade
15 Swiftblade extend spell
16 Abjurant Champion
17 Abjurant Champion
18 Abjurant Champion persist spell
19 Abjurant Champion
20 Abjurant Champion

your effective caster level=20
you cast level 9 spells
your BAB = 17

Note: I added physical combat oriented feats for fun, but you can easily take better spellcasting feats. I didn't bother taking the best feats in order since you start at level 20.

Swok
2010-02-27, 07:55 PM
you cast level 9 spells


How? Swiftblade loses 4 CL. that's 16th level wizard casting, at 20th caster level for spell variables.

KellKheraptis
2010-02-27, 07:57 PM
Aye, trade that Swiftblade level for another Wizard level. 17/17.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-27, 08:28 PM
What is Primary Contact?

A feat which you need to get into JPM at level 5, due to the 9 ranks of... Concentration, I think, required.

Soranar
2010-02-27, 08:30 PM
How? Swiftblade loses 4 CL. that's 16th level wizard casting, at 20th caster level for spell variables.

oups, tired, I forgot that was the main drawback of swiftblade, as mentioned before trade in a bladesinger level (level 1 gives +1 spellcasting) to attain 9th level spells or just take more wizard levels (so you don't waste a feat)

Pluto
2010-02-27, 08:30 PM
Aye, trade that Swiftblade level for another Wizard level. 17/17.

+1. That also happens to make it a legal build.

edit:
Well, almost.

KellKheraptis
2010-02-28, 07:36 AM
+1. That also happens to make it a legal build.

edit:
Well, almost.

Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5 is perfectly legal, assuming you have Dodge, Mobility, and a martial weapon proficiency (all doable at level 1).

AslanCross
2010-02-28, 08:25 AM
Anyone have any recommendations for how to go about a 10th-level Swiftblade/Martial adept build?

KellKheraptis
2010-02-28, 08:38 AM
Anyone have any recommendations for how to go about a 10th-level Swiftblade/Martial adept build?

Go epic? Or find a homebrew Swiftblade that's ToB based. Seriously, there's just not enough room in 20 levels. Now, if you're willing to cheese it up with something like Beholder Mage or Divine Crusader, you can probably get 6th or 7th level maneuvers fairly easily, but nothing close to a full on 9th/8th 16 BAB/17 CL hybrid AND get Swiftblade 10. Gestalt is a totally different matter though...

AslanCross
2010-02-28, 04:33 PM
Sorry, I meant what's the best you can get if you've only got 10 levels. A lot of the builds on this forum are really great, but I find them generally impractical for use as either PCs or BBEGs, since they're typically 20-level builds.

Tao the Ninja
2010-02-28, 04:50 PM
Can Duskblade qualify for Abjurant Champion? If so, Duskblade 5/Abjurant Champion 5/ Warblade 10 could be nice.

Pluto
2010-02-28, 05:03 PM
Can Duskblade qualify for Abjurant Champion? If so, Duskblade 5/Abjurant Champion 5/ Warblade 10 could be nice.
DB's qualify without any effort at level 6, so that's legal.

The problem with this as a Gish is that it only gets 3rd level spells, ever.

And Duskblade and Warblade don't play nicely. (Both are centered around standard action melee attacks; neither brings much to the other and spreading focus between them means neither gets level appropriate abilities.)

Crusader/Wizard/Jade Phoenix Mage/Abjurant Champion would be a better route to the same thing.
(An early Crusader level easily makes up for early-game Wizard squishiness, if that's your concern.)


Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5 is perfectly legal, assuming you have Dodge, Mobility, and a martial weapon proficiency (all doable at level 1).
Don't mind me. I'm just quibbling about the original build ignoring prerequisites like BA and Combat Casting.

herrhauptmann
2010-02-28, 05:06 PM
Crusader/Wizard/Jade Phoenix Mage/Abjurant Champion would be a better route to the same thing.
(An early Crusader level easily makes up for early-game Wizard squishiness, if that's your concern.)
Don't mind me. I'm just quibbling about the original build ignoring prerequisites like BA and Combat Casting.
A later crusader level will get you higher level stances and maneuvers when you finally take it, since you count as a higher level initiator.

Pluto
2010-02-28, 05:13 PM
A later crusader level will get you higher level stances and maneuvers when you finally take it, since you count as a higher level initiator.

Very true.

If you aren't expected to be the party beatstick at levels 1-4, delaying the first Martial Adept level is wise.

Eldariel
2010-02-28, 10:44 PM
You're actually perfectly capable beatstick with just high Str as a Wizard on low levels; that's really all it takes (though your HP will be a very real problem; you're even squishier than standard Fighters who are already dead in a breath). So...yeah, suggest the Wiz 4/Cru build. Unless you want Crusader's 4+Int skills instead of higher level maneuvers. Decisions, decisions.