PDA

View Full Version : Item creating classes... 3.5



gallagher
2010-02-27, 02:05 PM
hey all, i was wondering if any of you had any advice on a build for an item and golem creation character. its 10th level, and i always thought it would be cool to be a character that has his golems fight for him, and it is up to my creativity to make magic items...

anyway, any advice or builds i should look at?

Sanguine
2010-02-27, 02:15 PM
You'll want to look at the Artificer in the Eberron campaign setting it's main focus is in making magic items. If you haven't already got a race picked out Humans are always good and the Warforged from the same book make great Artificers. You might also want to look at the feats Extraordinary/Legendary/SomethingElse Craftsman also in the Eberron campaign setting.

sonofzeal
2010-02-27, 02:19 PM
Artificer is best for that, followed by Warlock (at higher levels), followed by Wizard.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-27, 02:20 PM
You'll want to look at the Artificer in the Eberron campaign setting it's main focus is in making magic items. If you haven't already got a race picked out Humans are always good and the Warforged from the same book make great Artificers. You might also want to look at the feats Extraordinary/Legendary/SomethingElse Craftsman also in the Eberron campaign setting.

Exceptional is the other one.

And yes, Artificers are great magic item and construct crafters - they get almost every magic item creation feat for free (all of the core ones), and get bonus feats they can spend on any of the ones the class misses.

They can craft any magic item they have the feat for, just by passing a Use Magic Device check - no spell slots required. They get 'free XP' in the form of their Craft Reserve, which they can use to craft magic items. They can also recharge their Craft Reserve by destroying magic items they don't want any more.

They also get Craft Homunculus as a class feature, which lets them craft... well, homunculi. Which they can then buff to high heaven with their infusions - basically spells, but only work on items and constructs.

You also don't need any PrCs: straight Artificer will serve your purposes well.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-27, 02:26 PM
+ something to artificer, they are also quite strong on their own

nargbop
2010-02-27, 02:48 PM
If you can take the Chameleon PrC from Races of Destiny, do so. Chameleon 2 gives a floating feat which you can switch out every day. So, take the feats Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item, and you never have to take another crafting feat.
This is an excellent dip for a human or doppelganger.
There is a not-very-effective PrC called Techsmith of Gond from one campaign setting that is thematically appropriate for you.
There are several feats available to you that dramatically reduce the costs in GP, time, and XP of your crafting. With these and carefully-chosen items, you can make very good use of your wealth.
Wands of Anyspell are great. Spell Compendium. There might be a Staff that includes Greater Anyspell in the literature, but I don't know of one. Check with your DM to see if you can make a Staff that includes Greater Anyspell.
The Recharge Staff feat from Dragon 338 pg 60 is AWESOME if you are a caster with a Staff that includes Greater Anyspell.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-27, 02:52 PM
If you can make staffs and can cast or emulate Greater Anyspell, yes, you can make a Staff of Greater Anyspell.

Also, if you're going to be an Artificer, ignore all of the suggested PrCs. Straight Artificer is better.

sonofzeal
2010-02-27, 03:19 PM
Also, if you're going to be an Artificer, ignore all of the suggested PrCs. Straight Artificer is better.
Eh, I found after a certain level (7-12), further levels of Artificer actually did very little for me. Craft Reserve is nice, but xp rates are such that I found it impossible to drop more than half a level anyway, and once you can Metamagic Wands and Scrolls, there's really not that much special later on or any reason to take more levels. Even getting +spellcaster PrCs is optional, as I found most Infusions were massively underwhelming, except for a few low-level ones (Skill Enhancement, I'm looking at you).

Warpwolf16
2010-02-27, 03:19 PM
Can I suggest the Arcane Mechanik from the Iron Kingdom Setting

Prime32
2010-02-27, 03:27 PM
+ something to artificer, they are also quite strong on their ownThey have the potential to be one of the most powerful classes in the game, but they take skill to play effectively.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-27, 03:30 PM
They have the potential to be one of the most powerful classes in the game, but they take skill to play effectively.

Even played badly, they're quite good.

Eldrys
2010-02-27, 03:31 PM
AFB right now, but there is a prc called Effigy something(master IIRC) from Complete Arcane that allows you to create robots that are reminiscent of animals

mostlyharmful
2010-02-27, 05:52 PM
Artifacer's also one of the few classes with even MORE book keeping than a Wizard. Personally I'd just take a creation feat or two and maybe Magical Artisan if you have a paticular focus (wonderous item's always good). That way you can have your fluff and still be resonablly flexible day to day rather than ask your party to take a break for a few weeks between adventures.

That being said, a Quill of Scribing (Complete Mage) and the Homonculous that crafts for you (Ebberon guide) are essential to a decent crafter. Otherwise you just annoy your party with weeks of rest, the narcoleptic party on overdrive, which is the major problem with Artifacers since 99.9% of their power is in their WBL, just go with a crafting mage.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-27, 06:03 PM
Artificers get Craft Homunculus, for free.

They appear in the same book as the Dedicated Wright.

There is absolutely no reason for them to have any more downtime than any other crafter. In fact they can have less downtime earlier, because they can craft a Dedicated Wright far earlier than anyone else can. They get Craft Homunculus at fourth level. Everyone else needs to have a caster level of at least 5 to even be able to have the Craft Construct feat.

Plus, Dedicated Wrights need fabricate, a fifth level spell, so a Wizard (say) can't craft one until at least level 9.

Soonerdj
2010-02-27, 06:11 PM
How is your cohort going to be level 10? IIRC you guys are still at level 9 and there is no way I'd allow Leadership to give you an even level character.

That being said, I'd recommend the Chameleon with the floating feats. There probably more likely to be found than a Warforged Artificer. That way you can drop him off in the port town and he'll be able to make divine stuff as well.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-27, 06:15 PM
...A Chameleon, a member of a secretive order who very specifically do not flaunt their abilities, is more likely to be found than a Warforged Artificer now?

And Artificers can make divine stuff, too.

gallagher
2010-02-27, 06:18 PM
How is your cohort going to be level 10? IIRC you guys are still at level 9 and there is no way I'd allow Leadership to give you an even level character.

That being said, I'd recommend the Chameleon with the floating feats. There probably more likely to be found than a Warforged Artificer. That way you can drop him off in the port town and he'll be able to make divine stuff as well.

for those concerned, this is my DM :) say hi!

and dude, you know i am planning on taking leadership at level 12. we have discussed this. remember my original plan was rogue1/wiz4/combat trapsmith 5?

turns out i just want to make an army.

Soonerdj
2010-02-27, 06:22 PM
Yeah well if you are willing to do all the book keeping and refrain from any of the too exotic constructs I can't see why it wouldn't work.

Good luck learning the Artificer class, I read all the Ebberon books trying to make one at level 10. Took hours and hours getting it all set.

mostlyharmful
2010-02-27, 06:53 PM
Artificers get Craft Homunculus, for free.

They appear in the same book as the Dedicated Wright.

There is absolutely no reason for them to have any more downtime than any other crafter. In fact they can have less downtime earlier, because they can craft a Dedicated Wright far earlier than anyone else can. They get Craft Homunculus at fourth level. Everyone else needs to have a caster level of at least 5 to even be able to have the Craft Construct feat.

Plus, Dedicated Wrights need fabricate, a fifth level spell, so a Wizard (say) can't craft one until at least level 9.

It's not about the time or the unworkableness of either concept, it's just that Wizards get less homework than Artifacers. And that's still a huge pile of OOC work to get them to perform.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-27, 07:14 PM
Why do Artificers need more homework than crafter-Wizards?

An Artificer can just look at a magic item, say "I'll 'ave that" and craft it. A Wizard has to worry about knowing the right spells.

A crafter-Wizard is still going to need to look up lots of magic items, because, well, his main focus is crafting magic items. A non-crafter might need less homework, but then he's not making magic items, is he?

gallagher
2010-02-27, 07:37 PM
Yeah well if you are willing to do all the book keeping and refrain from any of the too exotic constructs I can't see why it wouldn't work.

Good luck learning the Artificer class, I read all the Ebberon books trying to make one at level 10. Took hours and hours getting it all set.

the bookkeeping is going to be, in effect, making magic items and constructs. when we get back to base town, he will also serve to identify magic items. also going to be the guy in charge of watching and researching and all that with my various mooks.

trust me, i have a plan

Devils_Advocate
2010-02-27, 08:16 PM
A warforged Artificer with a dedicated wright does seem like a good idea. 'Sup dawg, I heard you like constructs, so I gave your construct that makes constructs a construct that makes constructs so he can craft constructs while he and his constructs adventure with you.


Eh, I found after a certain level (7-12), further levels of Artificer actually did very little for me. Craft Reserve is nice, but xp rates are such that I found it impossible to drop more than half a level anyway, and once you can Metamagic Wands and Scrolls, there's really not that much special later on or any reason to take more levels.
Skill Mastery looks pretty good to me. No matter how high you pump your Use Magic Device modifier, it still fails on a natural 1, and then you can't activate the item again for 24 hours. I think that I'd stick with the class through level 13.

And while the Craft Reserve isn't so great for a normal character, cohorts gain XP in their own weird way so that they only level as fast as their leaders. So a cohorts who loses XP falls permanently behind unless his leader also loses XP.


99.9% of their power is in their WBL, just go with a crafting mage.
They also have their Convert Wealth to Firepower... erm, I mean, Metamagic Spell Trigger... class feature. I gather that their infusions can be pretty handy, too. Especially for a character who has constructs fight for him.

sonofzeal
2010-02-27, 09:51 PM
Skill Mastery looks pretty good to me. No matter how high you pump your Use Magic Device modifier, it still fails on a natural 1, and then you can't activate the item again for 24 hours. I think that I'd stick with the class through level 13.
Wrong. Skillchecks don't auto-fail on a 1, and it's not hard to get them into auto-pass range even without a take 10.


And while the Craft Reserve isn't so great for a normal character, cohorts gain XP in their own weird way so that they only level as fast as their leaders. So a cohorts who loses XP falls permanently behind unless his leader also loses XP.
Granted. For a cohort, I'd consider using straight artificer. But for a cohort, I'd try to avoid all semblance of powergaming anyway, since the advantage of having a cohort at all is so big, and simple builds are best.

Also, I posted before Soonerdj came over and informed us it was a cohort - for a non-cohort character, I still say you have every reason to diverge from pure Artificer, and can do so far more easily than almost any other character. An Artificer 11 / CW Samurai 5 / Healer 4 is, imo, honestly almost as good as an Artificer 20. The only significant loss is 6th level infusions, which aren't even all that good compared to all the leet hax you'll be making for yourself with ECL 20 gold either way.


(edit - the previous hyperbolic example depends on "Practiced Spellcaster" stacking with Artificer's "effective caster level" to determine maximum craftable stuff, but that's ambiguous. Without that, Artificer 15 is the "it really doesn't matter after this point" level, as that's where you can get 9th level scrolls)

Devils_Advocate
2010-02-27, 11:10 PM
Wrong. Skillchecks don't auto-fail on a 1, and it's not hard to get them into auto-pass range even without a take 10.
Woah! I had thought that Use Magic Device had a special exception where you do fail on a natural 1, but upon closer inspection, it just says "if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can’t try to activate that item again for 24 hours". I must have either fundamentally misremembered that or misread it in the past.

I think that it came up in one discussion that you can't take 20 on a UMD check because of that clause, and I just later forgot that it was only a potential penalty for failure. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.


Also, I posted before Soonerdj came over and informed us it was a cohort - for a non-cohort character, I still say you have every reason to diverge from pure Artificer, and can do so far more easily than almost any other character.
I largely concur. At high levels, the class starts to primarily grant a Craft Reserve so large that you may well not have enough in-game time between level-ups to use half of it. Depending on how the campaign is progressing, you could multiclass a bit and still not even need to spend actual XP on item creation.

Greenish
2010-02-27, 11:38 PM
Woah! I had thought that Use Magic Device had a special exception where you do fail on a natural 1, but upon closer inspection, it just says "if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can’t try to activate that item again for 24 hours". I must have either fundamentally misremembered that or misread it in the past.

I think that it came up in one discussion that you can't take 20 on a UMD check because of that clause, and I just later forgot that it was only a potential penalty for failure. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.Well, if your skill is high enough that you don't fail on 1, why would you need to take 20? :smalltongue:

sonofzeal
2010-02-27, 11:42 PM
At high levels, the class starts to primarily grant a Craft Reserve so large that you may well not have enough in-game time between level-ups to use half of it.
Two words: Dedicated Wrights.

xp is a river anyway. Once you're half a level behind, the boosted rate is such that you'll actually pass your non-crafting teammates on the rebound sometimes. Even with six Wrights going full speed, my Artificer never ended up more than one session behind in level. Craft Reserve helps mitigate a problem that isn't even a problem, and is hence entirely disposable imo.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-28, 03:11 AM
xp is a river anyway.

Not for cohorts.

sonofzeal
2010-02-28, 03:24 AM
Not for cohorts.

Posted by me, earlier this thread, after that had already been pointed out:

Also, I posted before Soonerdj came over and informed us it was a cohort - for a non-cohort character, I still say you have every reason to diverge from pure Artificer, and can do so far more easily than almost any other character. An Artificer 11 / CW Samurai 5 / Healer 4 is, imo, honestly almost as good as an Artificer 20. The only significant loss is 6th level infusions, which aren't even all that good compared to all the leet hax you'll be making for yourself with ECL 20 gold either way.

Sue me for launching a discussion based on the OP. :smallannoyed:

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-28, 03:26 AM
Sue me for launching a discussion based on the OP. :smallannoyed:

Don't tempt me.

gallagher
2010-02-28, 11:40 AM
Don't tempt me.now now now, any legal action, while funny if on daytime TV, would solve us nothing here

but that leaves me with a question: if i am out fighting all day, and my cohort gains experience with me even though he isnt there, but instead making me things, would it be reasonable to say that he levels about a session after me (we normally level about 2 or 3 sessions apart)

and also, the dedicated wrights, do they use their own xp, or mine? that is to say, if i had one wright building a sword while the cohort was building a construct of some sort, whos xp would it effect?

and if i use a wright to hep create an item, does it decrease the time it takes, and does it cost additional XP even if the same amount of work is being done?

Flickerdart
2010-02-28, 11:46 AM
AFB right now, but there is a prc called Effigy something(master IIRC) from Complete Arcane that allows you to create robots that are reminiscent of animals
Yes, the Effigy Master lets you make construct versions of creatures. I'm not sure how effective it is, though.

If you want an army, necromancy is the easiest rout to go, though. Cheaper in the long run. Or better yet, robo-zombies.

Petrocorus
2010-02-28, 02:08 PM
Hello.

I'm a bit lost here. I got interested in this thread but since i'm a newbie with DnD 3.5, there are some thing i don't get.

Someone has spoken of WBL. What is it?

Is there a book other than Eberron campaign setting where i can find the Artificers class?

What are the CW Samurai and the Healer class? Where can i find them?

In what book can i find the Dedicated Wright and the Homonculi which can craft construts? Are they all in the Eberron campaign setting.

What is the Magical Artisan feat?

Thank you.

Flickerdart
2010-02-28, 02:13 PM
WBL is wealth by level. D&D 3.5 is balanced around the PCs having access to a certain amount of wealth for every level. The table for this can be found in the DMG, and is not part of the SRD so we can't reproduce it.

The CW Samurai is from Complete Warrior (hence the designation CW, as opposed to the better Oriental Adventures (OA) Samurai). I forget where the Healer is from, but it also sucks.

Greenish
2010-02-28, 02:15 PM
Someone has spoken of WBL. What is it?Wealth by level. It's the guidelines for DMs on how much wealth characters of X level ought to have (in form of magical items and so forth).

What are the CW Samurai and the Healer class? Where can i find them?CW stands for Complete Warrior (to differentiate it from Oriental Adventures samurai). Healer is from Miniatures Handbook, I seem to recall.
In what book can i find the Dedicated Wright and the Homonculi which can craft construts? Are they all in the Eberron campaign setting.Those are indeed Eberron critters.

PinkysBrain
2010-02-28, 02:53 PM
Just for reference, he used Samurai and healer to make a point ... they are seen as extremely weak classes. He was saying Artificer 11 with level 20 WBL is almost as powerful as an Artificer 20.

ECS is the only book which contains the Artificer class.

mostlyharmful
2010-02-28, 03:12 PM
What is the Magical Artisan feat?

Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide

ScionoftheVoid
2010-02-28, 03:31 PM
In what book can i find the Homonculi which can craft construts? Are they all in the Eberron campaign setting.


Homunculi are in the MM (Monster Manual) since everthing else has been covered. You may want to look at the Acronyms and Abbreviations thread, there's a link in one of the stickied threads (Notable Threads), it's useful if you're new here.

@^ What not where.

Petrocorus
2010-02-28, 05:34 PM
Thanks you all for all those quick replies.

Petrocorus
2010-03-02, 10:22 AM
Ok, i've found the Eberron campaign setting, read the Artificer class description and re-read the thread.
So, if i understand well, someone with the Prestige feat can have an Artificer as a cohort and have him creating items with his craft reserve and own XP, while the PC himself is adventuring and earning XP. Is that it?

Isn't it a bit cheesy?

Could a PC Artificer take a Dedicated Wright as a cohort?
In this case, would really need the Prestige feat?

Greenish
2010-03-02, 10:26 AM
Ok, i've found the Eberron campaign setting, read the Artificer class description and re-read the thread.
So, if i understand well, someone with the Prestige feat can have an Artificer as a cohort and have him creating items with his craft reserve and own XP, while the PC himself is adventuring and earning XP. Is that it?

Isn't it a bit cheesy?

Could a PC Artificer take a Dedicated Wright as a cohort?
In this case, would really need the Prestige feat?The feat is called Leadership (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#leadership), and there are very few non-cheesy uses for it. Dedicated Wright is a construct, so you might be able to buy one.

[Edit]: PC Artificer would just build a wright of his own.
[Edit]: Guide to Artificer (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19579430/The_Unofficial_Artificer_Players_Guide_3.0), for those interested. It's quite long and detailed.

Petrocorus
2010-03-03, 06:48 PM
And as we speak of item creation. Is there a good PrC for an Crafter Wizard?