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golem1972
2010-02-27, 05:00 PM
Warmages and other limited list arcane casters get a big boost out of the Raimbow Servant PrC. Waiting (min entry level + 10 level PrC) to get all of the cleric spells sucks though.

Much has been argued about Dragonwrought Kobolds and the Loredrake archtype. If a D. Kobold can pick up an archtype like Loredrake, what's to stop a Warmage Kobold from picking up a different one like Master of the Horde and adding all of the cleric spells (plus a couple of domains) to their spontaneous casting list at level 1?

I know it doesn't say it adds the cleric spells to the spell list directly, but it does say the dragon keeps its arcane casting and adds the ability to cast all cleric spells as arcane spells (which would put all cleric spells on your spell list).

Just wondering.

Wings of Peace
2010-02-27, 06:42 PM
This post has been erased at present until I learn to read closely.

erikun
2010-02-27, 06:54 PM
You do get a few other bonuses for Rainbow Servant, namely domain abilities and adding domain spells to your spell list. I'm not sure if there are any domain spells that aren't already on the Warmage + Cleric list already, though.

Perhaps the text for Master of the Horde would help in this case? I know we can just wait for someone familiar with the feat/template/whatever, but those of us who are not would need the actual wording to tell if your "Warmaster Hordemage" plans would work by RAW.

Greenish
2010-02-27, 07:09 PM
I'm not sure if there are any domain spells that aren't already on the Warmage + Cleric list already, though.Plenty of them. Travel is a good one, and amusingly, there's hardly any overlap between Warmage's list and Magic domain spells. Trickery might be useful too: Invisibility, Nondetection, PaO, Time Stop.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-27, 08:18 PM
My personal opinion is that no, you can't, because Dragonwrought Kobolds are not True Dragons and do not qualify for Sovereign Archetypes, but we'll leave that aside for a second.

There's another obstacle in that it could easily be seen as applying only to the innate casting of a dragon, but if you're allowing Loredrake you're already not taking that interpretation.

So yeah. If Loredrake works, it works, but Loredrake doesn't work.

golem1972
2010-03-02, 02:03 AM
I Don't think I can post all of the sovereign archtype here, but this is a little bit of it.

This special ability replaces the optional spell selection abilities a dragon normally possesses; as such, a silver dragon that adopts the child of Eberron archetype can no longer cast cleric spells or those from the Air, Good, Law, and Sun domains. Those wholly unable to cast cleric spells (black, green, and white) lose nothing when they adopt a Sovereign archetype.

Archtypes are:
Child of Eberron - Speak Druidic, Survival class skill, Druid spells as arcane spells.

Flame of the Forge - Craft and UMD class skills, +2 caster level for item creation, some bonus spells, Artificers Retain Essence class feature.

Fortune's Fang - Bluff and Disguise class skills, cleric spells and spells from Feast, Luck, and Trickery domains as arcane spells.

Guide of the Weak - Diplomacy and Intimidate as class skills, cleric spells and spells from Community and Protection domains as arcane spells.

Lightkeeper - Extra Turning Feat, cleric spells and spells from Glory, Law, Sun, and War domains as arcane spells.

Loredrake - +2 sorcerer levels.

Master of the Hoard - Appraise, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive class skills, cleric spells and spells from Charm, Commerce, and Travel domains as arcane spells.

Passion's Flame - Perform class skill, Rage as barbarian, cleric spells and spells from Passion and Madness domains as arcane spells.

Stalking Wyrm - Hide, Move Silently, and Survival as class skills, Track feat, Favored Enemy as Ranger, spells from Air, Animal, and Earth domains as arcane spells.

Wyrm of War - Martial Weapon proficiency, Armor proficiency, Bonus Feats.

Hope this isn't to much info, will edit if so.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-02, 06:15 AM
I Don't think I can post all of the sovereign archtype here, but this is a little bit of it.

This special ability replaces the optional spell selection abilities a dragon normally possesses; as such, a silver dragon that adopts the child of Eberron archetype can no longer cast cleric spells or those from the Air, Good, Law, and Sun domains. Those wholly unable to cast cleric spells (black, green, and white) lose nothing when they adopt a Sovereign archetype.

Archtypes are:
Child of Eberron - Speak Druidic, Survival class skill, Druid spells as arcane spells.

Flame of the Forge - Craft and UMD class skills, +2 caster level for item creation, some bonus spells, Artificers Retain Essence class feature.

Fortune's Fang - Bluff and Disguise class skills, cleric spells and spells from Feast, Luck, and Trickery domains as arcane spells.

Guide of the Weak - Diplomacy and Intimidate as class skills, cleric spells and spells from Community and Protection domains as arcane spells.

Lightkeeper - Extra Turning Feat, cleric spells and spells from Glory, Law, Sun, and War domains as arcane spells.

Loredrake - +2 sorcerer levels.

Master of the Hoard - Appraise, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive class skills, cleric spells and spells from Charm, Commerce, and Travel domains as arcane spells.

Passion's Flame - Perform class skill, Rage as barbarian, cleric spells and spells from Passion and Madness domains as arcane spells.

Stalking Wyrm - Hide, Move Silently, and Survival as class skills, Track feat, Favored Enemy as Ranger, spells from Air, Animal, and Earth domains as arcane spells.

Wyrm of War - Martial Weapon proficiency, Armor proficiency, Bonus Feats.

Hope this isn't to much info, will edit if so.

Why did you post this, again? :smallconfused:

golem1972
2010-03-02, 08:24 AM
You do get a few other bonuses for Rainbow Servant, namely domain abilities and adding domain spells to your spell list. I'm not sure if there are any domain spells that aren't already on the Warmage + Cleric list already, though.

Perhaps the text for Master of the Horde would help in this case? I know we can just wait for someone familiar with the feat/template/whatever, but those of us who are not would need the actual wording to tell if your "Warmaster Hordemage" plans would work by RAW.

Truthfully, it's a little too much cheese to want to play anyway. Though I did rough out a character concept when I first started thinking about it.

Basically he was the librarian / secretary / gopher in the place the dragons of argonessan held meetings. Been at it over a hundred years. Part sorcerer, part Kobold paragon, part specialist caster (couldn't decide, like beguiler but can't see that being usefull around a bunch of dragons), heading into ultimate magus (add in Riddled and Spellhoarding Psychosis). Not horribly optimized, but probably still overpowered.

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-02, 09:52 AM
Dragonwrought Kobolds are not True Dragons. They gain many of the advantages of True Dragons but do not qualify for anything that requires the creature be a True Dragon rather than a Dragon.

You may be able to convince a DM otherwise, but that's RAW.

Of course, I'm sidestepping the issure. Your question was
"If a D. Kobold can pick up an archtype like Loredrake, what's to stop a Warmage Kobold from picking up a different one like Master of the Horde and adding all of the cleric spells (plus a couple of domains) to their spontaneous casting list at level 1?"

So the answer is: Nothing is stopping the Kobold.

If you choose to willfully misread the rules. :smallbiggrin:

obnoxious
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JaronK
2010-03-02, 03:04 PM
Dragonwrought Kobolds are not True Dragons. They gain many of the advantages of True Dragons but do not qualify for anything that requires the creature be a True Dragon rather than a Dragon.

You may be able to convince a DM otherwise, but that's RAW.

This again? Look up the definition of True Dragons (Draconomicon sidebar, page 4 or 6, or Dragons of Kyrnn... the requirements are Dragon Type, has Age Catagories, Gets more powerful as it gets older. That's it. The MM entry is only talking about some True Dragons, which it's clear about, especially when it goes on to say things that don't apply to the majority of True Dragons).

Also, technically the Sovereign Archtypes don't even clearly say that you have to be a True Dragon.

JaronK

Tyndmyr
2010-03-02, 03:13 PM
My personal opinion is that no, you can't, because Dragonwrought Kobolds are not True Dragons and do not qualify for Sovereign Archetypes, but we'll leave that aside for a second.

Already beaten to death, but by RAW, they are. It was probably intentional too.

However, the later writers of Dragons of Eberron almost certainly didn't look at this combo, and didn't realize what a can of worms they were opening.


There's another obstacle in that it could easily be seen as applying only to the innate casting of a dragon, but if you're allowing Loredrake you're already not taking that interpretation.

So yeah. If Loredrake works, it works, but Loredrake doesn't work.

I don't see how this is the case. I can't find any limiting clause like that.

Clearly, they didn't anticipate it being used in this way, since the balancing factor of loredrake(rhd are decreased to d8s) is being avoided by not having rhd, but without a limitation that explicitly limits it to say, sorcerery, this isn't really a good argument.

IIRC, there's a way to swap out dragon's sorc casting for that of a wizard, so that's probably why they didn't get real specific.

JaronK
2010-03-02, 03:31 PM
At the end of the day, Kobolds were almost certainly intended to be True Dragons (Races of the Dragon spends pages talking about how Kobolds consider themselves to such, and gives them all the necessary elements). But the writers of Dragons of Eberron screwed up and didn't realize that Kobolds counted, and thus wrote something overpowered.

I think a lot of people don't want it to be RAW because it's extremely powerful, much like many people would claim you can't have flowing time Genesis or that Polymorph doesn't grant spellcasting. But that's not how RAW works... the rules say what they say, and sometimes what they say is stupid. There's nothing wrong with nerfing something that's overpowered, but let's not pretend the game is magically balanced by putting our fingers in our ears and reading it to say what we want it to say. If you don't like it, just tell your players it's not allowed.

As for the question of the OP, yes, it works. Kobold Warmages (and Dread Necromancers, and Beguilers) can by RAW get all Cleric or Druid casting spontaneously, making them quite nasty.

JaronK

magic9mushroom
2010-03-02, 06:20 PM
At the end of the day, Kobolds were almost certainly intended to be True Dragons (Races of the Dragon spends pages talking about how Kobolds consider themselves to such, and gives them all the necessary elements). But the writers of Dragons of Eberron screwed up and didn't realize that Kobolds counted, and thus wrote something overpowered.

I think a lot of people don't want it to be RAW because it's extremely powerful, much like many people would claim you can't have flowing time Genesis or that Polymorph doesn't grant spellcasting. But that's not how RAW works... the rules say what they say, and sometimes what they say is stupid. There's nothing wrong with nerfing something that's overpowered, but let's not pretend the game is magically balanced by putting our fingers in our ears and reading it to say what we want it to say. If you don't like it, just tell your players it's not allowed.

As for the question of the OP, yes, it works. Kobold Warmages (and Dread Necromancers, and Beguilers) can by RAW get all Cleric or Druid casting spontaneously, making them quite nasty.

JaronK

I don't see anything that says Kobolds are True Dragons barring an extremely specific reading of a single passage in Draconomicon. If I've missed something, tell me.

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-02, 07:34 PM
This again? Look up the definition of True Dragons (Draconomicon sidebar, page 4 or 6, or Dragons of Kyrnn... the requirements are Dragon Type, has Age Catagories, Gets more powerful as it gets older. That's it. The MM entry is only talking about some True Dragons, which it's clear about, especially when it goes on to say things that don't apply to the majority of True Dragons).

Also, technically the Sovereign Archtypes don't even clearly say that you have to be a True Dragon.

JaronK


True dragons are those creatures that become more powerful as they grow older
Using this as a basis for calling dragonwrought kobolds true dragons also allows one to consider many non-dragon type creatures true dragons, as it doesn't specify that true dragons must also be of the dragon type. Yes, this argument has been gone over many times with a fine-toothed comb, but if you search archives and apply some close reading, you will see that the argument against dragonwrought kobolds being true dragons is much stronger.

All of the material in Races of the Dragon about dragonwrought kobolds describes the similarity dragonwrought have to true dragons. Nothing says that they are considered true dragons. The only basis for the true dragon argument is that Races of the Dragon describes these similarities and the single sidebar in Draconomicon uses these same similar qualities to separate true dragons from lesser dragons.

This has not stopped me from convincing my DM to allow me to play a Riddled Dragonwrought Kobold Warmage :smallbiggrin: (Riddled being a true dragon-only template), but I really don't think it is anything but willful misreading to interpret a dragonwrought as a true dragon. Again though, the question was "if a dragonwrought can be considered a true dragon..." so if you would like to continue discussing it I'll keep arguing in another thread. :smallsmile:

I'm afraid that you are wrong about the Sovereign Archetypes, however.


All true dragons have the potential to use arcane magic. Most [true dragons] have the ability to select spells from the cleric spell list and certain domains. This variant rule instead [of the ability of true dragons to select spells from the cleric spell list and certain domains] provides a dragon with a special ability based on the Sovereign archetype it chooses to follow.

obnoxious
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Foryn Gilnith
2010-03-02, 08:53 PM
but if you search archives and apply some close reading, you will see that the argument against dragonwrought kobolds being true dragons is much stronger.
Obviously we don't see that.

@Sovereign Archetypes:

Those wholly unable to cast cleric spells (black, green, and white) lose nothing when they adopt a Sovereign archetype.
And, again, it's not clear that only true dragons can by RAW select Sovereign archetypes.

@OP: Irreverent Fool's post (#9) hits the nail on the head. If DM allows dragonwrought kobolds, sovereign archetypes, and Master of the Horde to work, then the combo works. If DM does not allow, which is likely, well...

magic9mushroom
2010-03-02, 09:11 PM
@OP: Irreverent Fool's post (#9) hits the nail on the head. If DM allows dragonwrought kobolds, sovereign archetypes, and Master of the Horde to work, then the combo works. If DM does not allow, which is likely, well...

Not quite. The DM has to allow all those things and allow Dragonwrought Kobolds to count as True Dragons (as RAI is unclear and RAW is debated).

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-03, 01:44 AM
Obviously we don't see that.

@Sovereign Archetypes:

And, again, it's not clear that only true dragons can by RAW select Sovereign archetypes.

@OP: Irreverent Fool's post (#9) hits the nail on the head. If DM allows dragonwrought kobolds, sovereign archetypes, and Master of the Horde to work, then the combo works. If DM does not allow, which is likely, well...

Then obviously you haven't looked. I have looked extensively and the argument for True Dragonwrought is shaky at best.

I will concede that in reality it will (as always) come down to DM interpretation.

I see no problem with it in theoretical optimization, as much of the premises of such are already built on shaky footing and I do not feel that this is the worst offender.

obnoxious
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JaronK
2010-03-03, 02:28 AM
{Scrubbed}

hamishspence
2010-03-03, 03:47 AM
And half-dragon phaerimm are true dragons as well by this reading.

And half-dragon kobolds aren't true dragons by RAW (since they don't "get more powerful as they get older") but if you can get Timeless Body on one of these (by taking levels in various classes or prestige classes) they become true dragons the moment they gain Timeless Body.

Its a little weird, to say the least.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-03, 04:49 AM
{Scrubbed}

I have not read Dragons of Krynn, but Dragons of Krynn information presumably only applies to Dragonlance and is overruled in general by the primary source Draconomicon (just as the ECS rules about clerics not falling are not applicable to campaigns outside Eberron). I have read the relevant passage in Draconomicon multiple times, so please do not call my opinion "uninformed" - though I acknowledge that it is my opinion as there is AFAIK no official statement on the subject.

The passage in Draconomicon says that a True Dragon must:

a) Be a Dragon. I do not contest in any way, shape or form, that a Dragonwrought Kobold is a Dragon. This is fine.

b) Must "become more powerful as they grow older". I contest that Dragonwrought Kobolds fulfill this requirement, since the official (as opposed to practical) representation of power is CR, and Dragonwrought Kobolds do not gain CR automatically as they age (while all other True Dragons I'm aware of do). Obviously, they can gain class levels, which would make them more powerful, but to rule that this ability fulfills the requirement would make all Dragons with an Int of 3 or higher True Dragons, an absurd conclusion, as it is in conflict with the list of Lesser Dragons in Draconomicon itself. Neither do they gain HD or ECL, the other two representations of power that I'm aware of. Hence Dragonwrought Kobolds are not True Dragons, since they do not fit the definition.

c) Must not "not advance through age categories", as this is part of the definition of a lesser dragon. Obviously, this is the flip side of b) above. Again, there are different interpretations of "advance through age categories". The interpretation of "has age categories" again has an absurd conclusion, since it again results in no Dragons that aren't immortal being Lesser Dragons. The interpretation of "advances in CR through age categories" is the best mirror to b) that I can see. Which means that a Dragonwrought Kobold does "not advance through age categories", rendering Dragonwrought Kobolds Lesser Dragons.



I do not "not want it to be true because it's overpowered", and apparently neither does Irreverent Fool, so please do not misrepresent my argument. I've posted at least two threads about cheesy character builds I've created, in fact. I simply do not believe that Dragonwrought Kobolds fulfill the requirements to take Sovereign Archetypes, as they are not True Dragons by RAW.

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-03, 04:56 AM
I have not read Dragons of Krynn...

It's "Irreverent Fool".

Aside from that, what Magic said.

obnoxious
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hamishspence
2010-03-03, 04:57 AM
Not to mention that, by RAW in the SRD, Old, Venerable, etc are Age Categories- several rules referencing them, refer to them as such.

So, any PC race with both Timeless Body and the Dragon type, becomes a True Dragon,

if "grows more powerful as it grows older" is interpreted in the way described-with +3 to mental stats and no change to physical stats, being enough to qualify.

Conversely, "Must have the dragon type" may be a little restrictive- since it means that true dragons which change type, cease to be true dragons.

A Great Wyrm Red Dragon disciple of Ashardalon, for example, would lose all benefits of being a true dragon, the moment it gains the capstone feature.

I prefer- "Must have the dragon type as a baseline"- that is- it may not have gained it through feats, templates, PRCs, etc.

This would exclude dragon disciples, half-dragons of any kind (including phaerimm) and dragonwrought kobolds.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-03, 05:01 AM
It's "Irreverent Fool".

Aside from that, what Magic said.

obnoxious
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Sorry about that, edited... :smallredface:

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-03, 05:11 AM
Not to mention that, by RAW in the SRD, Old, Venerable, etc are Age Categories- several rules referencing them, refer to them as such.

So, any PC race with both Timeless Body and the Dragon type, becomes a True Dragon,

if "grows more powerful as it grows older" is interpreted in the way described-with +3 to mental stats and no change to physical stats, being enough to qualify.

Conversely, "Must have the dragon type" may be a little restrictive- since it means that true dragons which change type, cease to be true dragons.

A Great Wyrm Red Dragon disciple of Ashardalon, for example, would lose all benefits of being a true dragon, the moment it gains the capstone feature.

I prefer- "Must have the dragon type as a baseline"- that is- it may not have gained it through feats, templates, PRCs, etc.

This would exclude dragon disciples, half-dragons of any kind (including phaerimm) and dragonwrought kobolds.

You could go a step further and cite the same sidebar from the Draconomicon which says it lists all True Dragons in the appendix. Dragonwrought Kobolds aren't in there.

@Magic: No worries

obnoxious
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magic9mushroom
2010-03-03, 05:17 AM
You could go a step further and cite the same sidebar from the Draconomicon which says it lists all True Dragons in the appendix. Dragonwrought Kobolds aren't in there.

Unfortunately, you can't, as RotD was published more than two years after Draconomicon.


@Magic: No worries

Yeah, you're certainly not irrelevant. :smalltongue:

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-03, 05:33 AM
Unfortunately, you can't, as RotD was published more than two years after Draconomicon.

I fail to see why that matters when interpreting the rules in the manner that is being done here. Clearly if the intent had been to include any dragons in the category of "True Dragons" in books following the Draconomicon, such monster entries would have specifically stated that those creatures are dragons by either saying so explicitly or by listing such creatures under the heading of "Dragon, <type>" and including challenge ratings for each age category to indicate how the creature becomes "more powerful" as it ages.

Oh wait. They did.
Fight fire with fire!
obnoxious
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hamishspence
2010-03-03, 06:14 AM
I think its more a case of people claiming that:

"non-true dragon + template/feat/PRC = True Dragon"

That, and:

"If they didn't intend it to be that way, they wouldn't have given kobolds a table from wyrmling to Great wyrm, and dragonwrought kobolds a rule making them immune to aging penalties."

magic9mushroom
2010-03-03, 06:20 AM
I think its more a case of people claiming that:

"non-true dragon + template/feat/PRC = True Dragon"

That, and:

"If they didn't intend it to be that way, they wouldn't have given kobolds a table from wyrmling to Great wyrm, and dragonwrought kobolds a rule making them immune to aging penalties."

Dragonwrought Kobolds are similar to True Dragons in quite a few ways, yes. This is only natural, given the fact that they're the most True Dragon-like of their race.

But you've got the alternate opinion on RAI that a member of another race that has features of a True Dragon should be a Lesser Dragon itself, since it's very lesser.

hamishspence
2010-03-03, 06:28 AM
then there is the other question about Draconomicon's "dragons of at least old age may take epic feats" which is irrelavent to the question of whether it's a true dragon or not.

Since "Old" is a normal PC age category- any half-dragon of a PC race technically qualifies.

It might not be as problematic though.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-03, 06:33 AM
then there is the other question about Draconomicon's "dragons of at least old age may take epic feats" which is irrelavent to the question of whether it's a true dragon or not.

Since "Old" is a normal PC age category- any half-dragon of a PC race technically qualifies.

It might not be as problematic though.

It's not as much, since most of the extreme cheese epic feats require other epic stuff like 24+ skill ranks, 21+ BAB, etc.

Roland St. Jude
2010-03-03, 08:09 AM
Sheriff of Moddingham: This is apparently too touchy a subject for people. I think this is the second thread on the this I've had to lock in the past week or so.