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Lysander
2010-02-27, 08:28 PM
If you use the Clone spell to make a copy of a dead person it basically functions as a version of resurrection that takes 2d4 months.

What happens if you create a clone of living person (making a "soulless bit of inert flesh") and then that person dies? A common assumption seems to be that the dead person's soul instantly enters the clone and they return from the dead. But the spell doesn't actually say that. It just says it creates an inert copy. You could validly argue that your spirit can't enter a clone made before your death.

So which is it?

Otodetu
2010-02-27, 09:35 PM
Another question is how you extract that 1 cubic inch piece of flesh from your body... that will leave a mark only regenerate can fix.

Lysander
2010-02-27, 09:46 PM
Eeesh. People never think about that. I guess the best thing to do is load up on calories and cut out a little piece of fat.

Bibliomancer
2010-02-27, 09:48 PM
Even that would produce some scarring (especially if one assumes flesh means muscle).

However, if a wizard or sorcerer can cast 8th level spells, they probably have a divine ally who can cast 7th level spells.

I would assume that it transfers to the clone instantaneously, since that seems to be RAI.

mostlyharmful
2010-02-28, 07:13 AM
One of many reasons why Eschew Materials is a good feat, it may not be all that worth it mechanically but it does make certain problems go away.

JeminiZero
2010-02-28, 07:59 AM
If you use the Clone spell to make a copy of a dead person it basically functions as a version of resurrection that takes 2d4 months.


The text states that you need a peice of flesh, taken from the original's LIVING body. So no, I don't think you can use it as a resurrection spell. You need to at least have harvested a backup sample while the guy was still alive.



What happens if you create a clone of living person (making a "soulless bit of inert flesh") and then that person dies? A common assumption seems to be that the dead person's soul instantly enters the clone and they return from the dead. But the spell doesn't actually say that. It just says it creates an inert copy. You could validly argue that your spirit can't enter a clone made before your death.


I think it does, but its hidden in the very first line


This spell makes an inert duplicate of a creature. If the original individual has been slain, its soul immediately transfers to the clone, creating a replacement.


Since the last line also refers to "inert flesh", the "inert duplicate" in the first line presumably refers to the result of a clone made while te guy as still not dead yet.

Lysander
2010-02-28, 09:55 AM
One of many reasons why Eschew Materials is a good feat, it may not be all that worth it mechanically but it does make certain problems go away.

I don't think Eschew Materials would work with spells that require a piece of flesh from a specific creature. The spell could still technically be cast, but you might end up making a clone of nothing. It's kind of like pretending to mix flour and eggs, then putting an empty pan in the oven. You can turn the oven on but there won't be a loaf of bread in there afterwards.

mostlyharmful
2010-02-28, 10:08 AM
I don't think Eschew Materials would work with spells that require a piece of flesh from a specific creature. The spell could still technically be cast, but you might end up making a clone of nothing. It's kind of like pretending to mix flour and eggs, then putting an empty pan in the oven. You can turn the oven on but there won't be a loaf of bread in there afterwards.

it's a material component that doesn't have a cost so the rules are pretty clear it works, if you want to talk about how the spell knows what you're cloning then welll.... I get to just run around with my fingers in my ears going 'nah nah nah can't hear you... IT's MAGIC!' And that's hardly dignified for either of us.:smallsmile:

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-28, 10:26 AM
This is what planar binding (and/or simulacrum) is good for. Get an efreeti, wish for a few clones. You don't have to wait 2d4 months, and if your friend is dead you can bring him back ASAP.

Really, since this is best done for you, since it's difficult to make wishes when you're dead.

...Though "I wish for a true resurrection spell to be cast immediately on me upon my death" could take care of that little issue (and avoids the level loss). Having a backup clone or twenty might be a good idea anyway, since there's always the possibility of getting ganked when you respawn (and those clones should be in many and varied locations, each with backup spellbooks).

Jodo Krast
2010-02-28, 03:47 PM
If you use the Clone spell to make a copy of a dead person it basically functions as a version of resurrection that takes 2d4 months.

What happens if you create a clone of living person (making a "soulless bit of inert flesh") and then that person dies? A common assumption seems to be that the dead person's soul instantly enters the clone and they return from the dead. But the spell doesn't actually say that. It just says it creates an inert copy. You could validly argue that your spirit can't enter a clone made before your death.

So which is it?

Since your body technically still exists, it is assumed that your soul enters the clone. It's a fun spell.

Jodo Krast
2010-02-28, 03:48 PM
This is what planar binding (and/or simulacrum) is good for. Get an efreeti, wish for a few clones. You don't have to wait 2d4 months, and if your friend is dead you can bring him back ASAP.

Really, since this is best done for you, since it's difficult to make wishes when you're dead.

...Though "I wish for a true resurrection spell to be cast immediately on me upon my death" could take care of that little issue (and avoids the level loss). Having a backup clone or twenty might be a good idea anyway, since there's always the possibility of getting ganked when you respawn (and those clones should be in many and varied locations, each with backup spellbooks).

In addition, you can have gentle repose cast on the clones so that they do not decay (they normally do)

herrhauptmann
2010-02-28, 04:42 PM
...Though "I wish for a true resurrection spell to be cast immediately on me upon my death" could take care of that little issue (and avoids the level loss). Having a backup clone or twenty might be a good idea anyway, since there's always the possibility of getting ganked when you respawn (and those clones should be in many and varied locations, each with backup spellbooks).

But what if you get killed as a result of something like V received? Dragon casts AMF, goes up next to a wizard, then full attacks, again and again. You die, but your body is in an AMF, so the true resurrect shouldn't be able to work.

Other option. You die by falling into something like lava or acid. Maybe you failed a save, who knows why you're flying/standing above a pit of lava, after all, it's on the evil overlord list.
Anyway, you're in the lava, you die. True resurrect happens next round. You're still in the lava, and all your equipment has taken lava damage for a round. Now what?

Not that I'm saying the contingency true rez is a bad idea, just that it needs to be phrased better.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-28, 04:58 PM
...Though "I wish for a true resurrection spell to be cast immediately on me upon my death"

Wish can't replicate true resurrection. The best it can do is raise dead.

Jack_Simth
2010-02-28, 05:34 PM
Wish can't replicate true resurrection. The best it can do is raise dead.
Well... there's that pesky "Powerful request" clause ... which you'll need doing this, as a contingent spell isn't really on it's list.

Alternately, you could pick up Craft Contingent Spell, and just collaberate with the Cleric on True Resurrection spells. Very pricey, but can be WELL worth it in the right circumstances; having your extra lives activate immediately, while in the middle of a battle, bringing you to full health, can mean the difference between a TPK and a close call.

Or, you know, if you're making them contingent spells, you use those ones that are lower-level, but require no more than a round has passed since death - then you use Craft Contingent Spell for that and Teleport - revive you and get you out of the danger zone.

Prime32
2010-02-28, 05:58 PM
1. Use Eschew Materials to ignore the "piece of flesh" requirement of the clone spell
2. Create a clone of the tarrasque
3. Possess or otherwise take over clone
4. ???
5. Profit!