Gods, Deities and other such entities

[oxybe]

Deities in D&D have always been a sticking point for me.

In traditional D&D, the gods are generally partially omnipotent entities that can move the world if angered. in some worlds, like FR, they will mingle with the common folk, and in others, like Eberron, they might just be a byproduct of some long dead dragon's joke taken too far and took a life of their own.

but... why? why are gods such supreme beings?

in the setting i'm working on for homebrew, such entities are well... nonexistant. there are only a handful or less that might come close to a traditional god with a proper following, but most are small regional spirits/entities that overlook & keep guard of an area, town or even just a house, garden or graveyard. others fall in line more of the boogyman type and used a very real warning of what might happen to disrespectful or negligent people who ignore advice and warning. they aren't tied to a location, but are still quite powerful in some respects.

now, these "gods" can't be killed in the traditional sense like how applying a large dose of fire can solve most of your goblin problems, but they can be resisted & fought off by PCs/NPCs with some power, while a more esoteric method of killing is possible, if difficult ("Torvalds, protector of Ulala" might require you to destroy the town of Ulala to kill. or changing the town's name to something else).

and there are "false gods", very powerful creatures that take on the title of "god" and throw their weight around. an older dragon or deranged archmage could take the title and not have it contested by even "real" gods (though these might make the lives of the fakes quite a bit more difficult). some powerful fighters or military leaders are sometimes revered by the common folk as gods due to their skill, but those warriors usually just ignore this and are happy with the praise.

so how about you? do you like a pantheon of worldshakers, a gaggle of spirits of varying power, a single supergod, or what?

[Arti3]

I usually entail at least three types of worship in my games: a (true) pantheon of gods, cults that believe only in one of the gods of the pantheon, and false religions that start worshiping gods that don't exist, but because they are worshiped, come into existence as very minor gods. Usually in a 1:5:2~3 ratio, those being the main ones.

[Bibliomancer]

I tend to use the Eberron Campaign Setting, which says that the gods a) don't exist or b) can't do anything.

Thus, all you have to worry about are the Dragons/Quori/Rakshasas/Undying Court/Daelkyr/Any Other Outsider/More Dragons.

It's quite efficient, actually, mainly because it clarifies that the PCs really are the only ones who care (the dragons will save the world, just not your section of the world).

[Xallace]

Godly interaction in our games tends toward two extremes:

A) The gods are impersonal, inhuman, merely embodiments of concept that either have no consciousness of their own or have a consciousness that mortals simply could not comprehend, or

B) The gods are very human, with distinct personalities, traits, and flaws. They never influence events, only really interacting with mortals as comedy relief.

Heironeous, for example, is itself "the calling" for paladins, just given a name and anthropomorphized for mortal convenience. He is the pure essence of knighthood. On the other hand, he is also considered the "Defender of the Funk," and his avatars are noted for their breakdancing skill.

Nerull is death. No alignment, no villainous schemes; just pure, impersonal death. He's also a snooty know-it-all who likes to talk about the political cartoons in The New Yorker.

Then we have Olidamara, who makes this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ex30DYwQlHU) happen every time he touches down on the Prime Material. He doesn't have an impersonal divinity. He's Olidamara, he just parties.

[Mastikator]

I don't use deities as omnipotent beings. Just superpowerful outsiders. Though since I am a fan of E6, this allows me to use a "mere" pitfiend as a deity, because it might as well be.

[PersonMan]

I usually use gods as beings that have huge amounts of worshipers. They can be killed, but you'd have to kill enough of their worshipers that they began to run out of divine power and "fell" back into a mortal form.

[slyfox99]

My campaign will eventually feature a gods vs primordials rematch, but until the characters are powerful enough to deal with THAT, the deities on both sides will act through their agents: at first priests, cultists, avengers, paladins, etc... then the archons and angels will show up, and then...

I am not sure the gods will show their actual faces... We'll see.

[Teron]

I tend to use the Eberron Campaign Setting, which says that the gods a) don't exist or b) can't do anything.
Or c) have a sense of subtlety.

That's the interpretation I prefer, anyway.

[Samb]

It largely depends on the setting. For Eberron, gods may or may not exist, but something/someone is granting spells. Something is out there, be it the silver flame or whatever.

I generally treat gods in standard campaigns as real beings that are embodiments of their religion. There are some cases that are not clear cut like some high end demons and devils that have thralls and disiples (PrC in BoVD) who don't really worship them but get power from them anyway.

I always felt the idea of "if enough people believe in a god then one will spring into existence" as utter crap. DnD canon has heavily hinted that divinity is more than just faith but rather a rare quality that one is created/born with. There was a darklord in Ravenloft that found his own imaginary relgion and used his power (granted by the Mist most likily) to make it into the state theocracy. But even with such a huge follow, only he recieved spells not any of his followers. And no one ever heard the breast god speak to them as a real god would.

[Shademan]

I use the standard D&D pantheon but do a couple of tweaks:
All gods are worshipped and have temples everywhere.
The gods are kinda like the greek/norse pantheon. they stick together, squabble, love, fight, hug, make love and headbutt each other.
Sometimes they walk among the mortals, trying to pull strings, joyriding, trying to help or trying to bed a charming mortal.
also: alignment is alot more ambigious, clerics of Pelor don't KNOW he is neutral good. they debate it etc etc. and sometimes pelor do something that is NOT neutral good at all.
in short, I made them closer to the classical mythological pantheon.

[magic9mushroom]

It largely depends on the setting. For Eberron, gods may or may not exist, but something/someone is granting spells. Something is out there, be it the silver flame or whatever.

Canon is pretty much that they aren't. People get spells from the strength of their own convictions.


I always felt the idea of "if enough people believe in a god then one will spring into existence" as utter crap.

What's so wrong with the idea? If you've accepted magic, power from faith is hardly a stretch.

It's also helpful to give a reason why the gods help their worshippers out.


DnD canon has heavily hinted that divinity is more than just faith but rather a rare quality that one is created/born with. There was a darklord in Ravenloft that found his own imaginary relgion and used his power (granted by the Mist most likily) to make it into the state theocracy. But even with such a huge follow, only he recieved spells not any of his followers. And no one ever heard the breast god speak to them as a real god would.

"D&D canon on the matter" is horribly vague by design so a DM can rule it however he wants. Unless you look at Tyrants of the Nine Hells, which basically explicitly proves you wrong with the existence of God Street.

[AslanCross]

I also see the Eberron take as that the gods are much more subtle than in say, Forgotten Realms.

Cultists who worship ideas or beings that are explicitly not gods (the Lord of Blades, for example, or the Blood of Vol, where people worship some inner sort of divinity) still gain powers from their faith, but that worship doesn't actually make the Lord of Blades a god.

I never really liked the apotheosis-by-survey concept.

[oxybe]

I never really liked the apotheosis-by-survey concept.

i so need to include this one guy, a disheveled street preacher, who's surveying random people in an overly chipper voice for "what they want in a deity" and trying to ascend in this fashion.

[AslanCross]

i so need to include this one guy, a disheveled street preacher, who's surveying random people in an overly chipper voice for "what they want in a deity" and trying to ascend in this fashion.

...I've gotta admit that's a pretty interesting adventure hook.

[Yora]

In my setting, I use demigods and true gods.
Demigods are very powerful creatures that are immortal in most regards and have the ability to always know what's going on in their domain. Depending on their power, they can control the local animals and plants, and even shape the landscape to some degree by their will alone. Humanoids and intelligent creatures that live inside their domain usually accept them as their supreme lords. Many are fully corporeal, but some are incorporeal spirits that only manifest temporary corporeal avatars to interact with the living. They are creatures, that can theoretically be killed if someone has enough power to defeat them or destroy the source of their power. They are very similar to arch-fiends, but they also include many nature spirits.
True gods are more like cosmic powers, principles, ideals, or concepts. They are not creatures and can neither be destroyed, nor contacted. The only thing that can be percieved about them is that they are the source of divine spells for clerics. It's generally accepted that true gods exist, but people disagree if they are even concious in the sense of mortals, or if they notice the existance of their worshippers, or if worshipping them creates any way of response from them. Most priests and very devout worshippers believe that there's some kind of connection between them and their gods and that this connection positively influences their worldly or at least spiritual wellbeing. Others just believe in the principles and morals their chosen deities represent and approach it more like a philosphy. And then there are also those who don't worship them at all and follow fully philosophical ideologies, or revere demigods as their supreme lords and masters.

[slyfox99]

I am trying very hard now to remember that Futurama episode where Bender meets God, who looks somewhat like a nebula deep in space, and recall what God told him. Something along the lines of "I just do enough to make them wonder." is it?

There is also H.P. Lovecraft's notion of a blind idiot god who dances to the piping of insane pipers at the center of the universe...

[Ormur]

It may be a fault but I find all that god stuff a bit too messy. The possibility of deus ex machina isn't something I'd want to consider when designing my campaign. If divine intervention is a possibility any important event enough to warrant a campaign would pretty much guarantee it. However I didn't rewrite the cosmology before the campaign so the gods probably exist and provide divine power and some hints of their existence.

My solution is that they deities probably treat the material plane as some kind of an experiment or have a non-intervention pact or something concerning it. Maybe seeing how their ideologies thrive without their constant meddling. If people go to another plane, or use magic they might encounter the deities or their representatives but it must be initiated by the NPC's or the players.

[Samb]

Canon is pretty much that they aren't. People get spells from the strength of their own convictions. It's a bit more vague, but I'm inclined to agree with you here. Other than the fact that the silver flame clear does exist and makes a 12 year kid a level 20 cleric is proof that spells (or raw power) is granted by outside forces. Though that could be more the exception than the rule.




What's so wrong with the idea? If you've accepted magic, power from faith is hardly a stretch.

It's also helpful to give a reason why the gods help their worshippers out.

The Ravenloft example I just cited proves that it is wrong. Faith determines the gods' power level but NOT if they are gods to begin with. Gods simply are. Take Mina from Dragonlance, she had no worshipers and those that followed her worshipped the One Goddess, not her. But it didn't change the fact that she was a goddess herself even without any worshippers. If you want to make "worshipper make gods" that is your own houserule, please don't get it mixed up.



"D&D canon on the matter" is horribly vague by design so a DM can rule it however he wants. Unless you look at Tyrants of the Nine Hells, which basically explicitly proves you wrong with the existence of God Street.
In fact it is NOT vague. In any module that has a villain trying to achieve godhood it has been involved having a divine spark. Take a look at Beloved of the Lich Queen (Dungeon #100) and Harbringer House (Planescape) for more examples. Gods and Divinities says the nature of gods is up to the DM and the divine spark is one theory, but all modules involving gods have subscribed the the divine spark theory.

And after reviewing the BoVD, the thralls and disciples only gain class features for following powerful demons/devils, not spells. The demon/devil lords themselves don't gain power having followers either, just increases their influence in the Prime. So no I'm not wrong, though I can hardly fault you for not knowing every module in existence.

[Emmerask]

Canon is pretty much that they aren't. People get spells from the strength of their own convictions.

What's so wrong with the idea? If you've accepted magic, power from faith is hardly a stretch.


Thats the main reason I dislike Eberron, basically every player could just say I believe hard enough now that I have a diamond worth 1 billion gold pieces and by Eberron setting it should happen, why even have caster classes I could be a fighter and get spellcasting the same way "I believe hard enough now":smallmad:

Lucky for me there is still Faerun :smallwink:

[Volkov]

Gods aren't all-powerful, Zargon, Mau-yuan, and Pandorym can attest to that. Those guys are the terrible trio of god-slayers, Zargon took on more or less every god at once and killed a good deal of them and sent the rest scurrying for cover, but he had special powers that only work on gods. Mau-yuan slaughtered ten gods and countless demon lords, and Pandorym could destroy all reality if his halves were reunited.

[Volkov]

Thats the main reason I dislike Eberron, basically every player could just say I believe hard enough now that I have a diamond worth 1 billion gold pieces and by Eberron setting it should happen, why even have caster classes I could be a fighter and get spellcasting the same way "I believe hard enough now":smallmad:

Lucky for me there is still Faerun :smallwink:

Without that thing, Setrous doesn't work, and Sertrous is badass, so he must work. (Sertrous told mortals that you can get divine magic without faith in gods.) And plus, you still need levels in cleric or adept to get the divine magic.

[Emmerask]

Gods aren't all-powerful, Zargon, Mau-yuan, and Pandorym can attest to that. Those guys are the terrible trio of god-slayers, Zargon took on more or less every god at once and killed a good deal of them and sent the rest scurrying for cover, but he had special powers that only work on gods. Mau-yuan slaughtered ten gods and countless demon lords, and Pandorym could destroy all reality if his halves were reunited.

Well the question is not really if the respective setting gods outlined in books are killable but how you like your gods in your campaigns which pretty much is up to the dm :smallwink:

[Volkov]

Well the question is not really if the respective setting gods outlined in books are killable but how you like your gods in your campaigns which pretty much is up to the dm :smallwink:

Then we have the major Far Realm entities, which make gods crap their pants. Oh and Tharidizun, who can also destroy all reality if restored to full-power. I would buy and sell tickets to a match between Taridizun and Pandorym. It would be an awesome fight, even if the multiverse is destroyed in the crossfire.