Kung Fu Panda

[Amiel]

Honestly? I was going into this movie expecting an overly saccharine affair, that was coupled with slapstick comedic antics that served no other purpose than to detract from the main plot (if there was even one); if the trailer was to be believed (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NeverTrustATrailer).

I...I was pleasantly surprised. I really enjoyed this movie. It was amazing, easily on par with some of Pixar's offerings; and definitely different to how it was portrayed in the trailers. While it was mostly directed at kids, the movie also had strong messages and underlying themes about being true to yourself, about tolerance, about losing yourself to pride and rising above it, about belief in yourself and others, about hope. And the messages were poignant and deeply effective.
Oogway remains my favourite character.

And the music! The movie seriously has one of the best movie soundtracks of all time.


And I totally cried on some scenes while watching Secrets of (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjYPlzlga78) the Furious (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuVNhGBGWfY) Five (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17Tvpu4SOpU&feature=fvw). Shut up

[skywalker]

We are noodle folk...




...

White text required.

[Starscream]

I am an absolute animation junkie. Seriously, I annoy friends and relatives by rattling off the names of voice actors I recognize without looking at the screen. "That's Jim Cummings as Tigger. Later on he takes over as Pooh as well".

And I loved Kung Fu Panda. It was quire simply some of the best animation I have ever seen. In fact, I'd say it was also one of the best action movies I've ever seen. The scene where Tai Lung escapes from prison is incredible.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Agreed. One of my favorite animated films, or films in general. It was especially great since I've a little familiarity with the Chinese wuxia genre. I did like how it was both funny and meaningful. Like Pixar, although not quite on their level.

But a very good movie. And visually stunning.

[Killer Angel]

Yes, that movie is made of win! :smallbiggrin:

[Szilard]

Yeah, the movie was way more epic that I thought it would be from the trailers.

[Tirian]

I get what you all are saying, but the movie disappointed me even more than a bad movie would. Because two-thirds of it is the same old boring trope of fat stupid useless verbally-evasive lump being miscast as a savior, and then winning over his comrades, then his master, losing it all, and finally achieving his destiny. They hit every spot on the checklist. Halfway into the movie, I was so bored that I was debating with myself which of the hundred movies that did this better did it best. (I still can't decide between Stripes and Trading Places.)

Then the movie metaphorically twitched its pinky finger by switching the focus to being about the dynamics about the dojo, and that was flat-out amazing. Shifu and Tigress were great characters, and it was clear that they didn't hate Po because they were meanies but because he was useless and flippant and unworthy of the trust to save them. I was awestruck there.

But then the focus mostly went back to Po and it was more of the same old same old facedown, training montage, transfiguration, and climactic battle, and I was back to being mostly bored again.

I tell you, make this movie over again with the same story except Tigress as the lead character instead of Po, and it will be something for the ages even if it only takes forty-five minutes to tell.

[Avilan the Grey]

(Snip stuff)

...So what you are saying is that you hate not only western animated movies, but movies about underdogs and unlikely heroes in general?
I have no problem with that except: Why on earth would you go watch this movie then?

This is not asked in a snarky tone, I would really like to know?

(And 45 minutes? That would be 45 minutes too long... A movie based on the most boring character... No thank you).

....

To the rest of the people in this thread: Yes, I loved it too. The biggest reason it is so good is because it is a classic Kung Fu movies made with animated animals, not a western animated movie about Kung Fu.

[Indon]

I liked the movie as well, though I think they missed an awesome storytelling opportunity near the end -

That scroll did not have nothing - it was quite clearly reflective and showed the visage of the individual attempting to read it. I think the scroll's lesson would've been much more interesting narratively if they'd appropriately pushed that angle.

[The Glyphstone]

It was a an awesome movie, but one thing sadly stands out in memory about it...I ended up going to see it with my entire family, all of us are martial artists ourselves. We couldn't avoid commenting that Po's back foot was angled completely wrong for the kick he was doing on the movie poster...

[Saph]

I'm kind of with Tirian here. The idea of being true to yourself and having hope seems like a good message at first . . . then you think back over the movie and realise that all of the Five did all that too, trained for years and years, and ended up being completely irrelevant, while Po just walked in, did a tenth of the work that they did, and became the hero.

I think I prefer Terry Pratchett's take on it.


Miss Tick sniffed. “You could say this advice is priceless,” she said, “Are you listening?”
“Yes,” said Tiffany.
“Good. Now...if you trust in yourself...”
“Yes?”
“...and believe in your dreams...”
“Yes?”
“...and follow your star...” Miss Tick went on.
“Yes?”
“...you’ll still be beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren’t so lazy. Goodbye."

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I liked the movie as well, though I think they missed an awesome storytelling opportunity near the end -

That scroll did not have nothing - it was quite clearly reflective and showed the visage of the individual attempting to read it. I think the scroll's lesson would've been much more interesting narratively if they'd appropriately pushed that angle.
I think that point was there, subtly. I know that's what I took out of it initially: the idea that power isn't something that's given to you. It's something that already exists, that you have to accept. And I do think they used it to storytell. The scroll was highly reflective...that had to have been intentional. They just weren't hammering us over the head with the message, which I appreciate.

@Saph: I don't think it's so much about "who deserved it". The movie clearly shows that Po didn't deserve to become that hero. That's not the point. The point is, he was the hero. It's the idea of being given a role to play, a job to do, and then accepting that call. It's not a role you can earn, it's a role that you must accept. Call it destiny, call it purpose, that's one of the big things that was in the movie. Possibly one of the things pointed to by the reflective scroll.

[SolkaTruesilver]

I just realised something.

Master Oogway is a Ninja Turtle :smallbiggrin:

[Starscream]

@Saph: I don't think it's so much about "who deserved it". The movie clearly shows that Po didn't deserve to become that hero. That's not the point. The point is, he was the hero. It's the idea of being given a role to play, a job to do, and then accepting that call. It's not a role you can earn, it's a role that you must accept. Call it destiny, call it purpose, that's one of the big things that was in the movie. Possibly one of the things pointed to by the reflective scroll.

Agreed. While I love the Pratchett quote (he's the greatest author ever), a recurring theme in his books is that the hero is never the guy who sets out to be one. It's always someone who who frankly rather it not be them.

[Saph]

Agreed. While I love the Pratchett quote (he's the greatest author ever), a recurring theme in his books is that the hero is never the guy who sets out to be one. It's always someone who who frankly rather it not be them.

That's pretty much the opposite of Kung Fu Panda, then, isn't it? Po spends all his time dreaming of being an awesome kung fu warrior without actually doing anything to get there, then gets cosmically handpicked to be the Dragon Warrior instead of all the students who've been training and working for it.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

I just realised something.

Master Oogway is a Ninja Turtle :smallbiggrin:
Oh man, that brought forth a guffaw. I never pieced those two together.

Oogway was the most awesome character ever.

[Destro_Yersul]

I just realised something.

Master Oogway is a Ninja Turtle :smallbiggrin:

Well, if you want to argue semantics he's not, because Kung Fu is Chinese and Ninja are Japanese, but that really doesn't matter in the face of Oogway's greatness.

He was awesome.

[Starscream]

That's pretty much the opposite of Kung Fu Panda, then, isn't it? Po spends all his time dreaming of being an awesome kung fu warrior without actually doing anything to get there, then gets cosmically handpicked to be the Dragon Warrior instead of all the students who've been training and working for it.

If he'd spent the whole film convinced it really was his destiny to be a hero, then yeah. Instead he was fully aware of how pathetic he was, tried to run away, and only saved the day because he was the only one who could.

So I see him as being a little like Rincewind. Sure, Rincewind always wanted to be a powerful wizard, but is well aware that he has no talent for magic, and prefers to flee from danger than face it. And yet he always finds himself saving the world where much more competent characters have failed.

But yeah, you have a point. The whole "destined hero" thing has pretty much been done to death. In particular, it has been used over and over in kung fu movies, probably hundreds of times. And Kung Fu Panda is a pastiche of those films, so I think it makes sense that they used it, albeit in a comical manner.

If it had simply been a case of Tai Lung saying "I'm going to win because I've trained." and Tigress saying "No, I'm going to win because I've trained more" then you would have a movie that was logical, sensible, honest, and completely utterly boring.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Well, if you want to argue semantics he's not, because Kung Fu is Chinese and Ninja are Japanese, but that really doesn't matter in the face of Oogway's greatness.

He was awesome.

And the Ninja Turtles aren't ninjas, as they don't hide, they don't assassinate anyone, nor do they use any real ninjutsu. The only thing "Ninja" is their use of martial art techniques, and that isn't even part of the real "Ninja" mythos, it's more of a Monk mythos.

But Teenage Mutant Monk Turtle doesn't sound the same...

[Joran]

Did anyone else find Tai Lung to be a sympathetic character? He's known throughout the movie as a terrible person, but we never see any of his crimes. I'm sure he clubbed seals or stole candy from a baby or something else terrible so they had to lock him up. Instead in my view, he's someone with ambition and skill that didn't react well to the capricious decisions of his master's master.

My major issue with Kung Fu Panda is they set up Tai Lung as a bad ass antagonist and then completely removed that when he fought Po. It's possible for a completely inept character to become slightly less inept and yet not overshadow his or her peers who have been working at this for awhile. The Forbidden Kingdom, the movie with Jet Li and Jackie Chan, managed to use the "destined hero" idea, but in a more logical manner.

[Tirian]

I have no problem with that except: Why on earth would you go watch this movie then?

This is not asked in a snarky tone, I would really like to know?

(And 45 minutes? That would be 45 minutes too long... A movie based on the most boring character... No thank you).

I watched the film because it was what was being done while eating pizza in the living room with my nine year-old nephew and four year-old niece. And my brother assured me that it was the most beautiful Western animation he had ever seen.

Which is all fair, and it was an okay movie. It just would have been a great movie if it had the courage to tell the new story instead of the tired old one.

And Tigress is not the most boring character by a long shot. She's a promising student shunted off during training because of Shifu's inability to love, and then the best of the Furious Five but overlooked to avenge her pain against Tai Lung because the duty falls to an untrained oaf, and then she has to process her anger in light of the fact that her comrades are warming up to Po. Let her take the first steps in training Po before handing him off to Shifu for the dumpling scene, then the rest of the movie like it was and you've got something reminiscent of Bull Durham except much more emotionally involved. I'd sure watch the hell out of it.

[Saph]

My major issue with Kung Fu Panda is they set up Tai Lung as a bad ass antagonist and then completely removed that when he fought Po. It's possible for a completely inept character to become slightly less inept and yet not overshadow his or her peers who have been working at this for awhile. The Forbidden Kingdom, the movie with Jet Li and Jackie Chan, managed to use the "destined hero" idea, but in a more logical manner.

Agreed. I thought Forbidden Kingdom did that really well. The hero in Forbidden Kingdom goes from inept to competent, but he doesn't suddenly become able to defeat warriors who've trained their entire lives.

The film never gives a good explanation for how Po can beat Tai Lung when the Five and their master can't - it's just part of the story that he's the Dragon Warrior, so he has to win, even though he's unfit and inexperienced. I found it kinda lame.

[Da'Shain]

Well, I thought the implied explanation for Tai Lung's inability to defeat Po was partially that once he got over his fear, Po was able to use Tai Lung's own strengths against him, which worked better and better as the fight goes on because Tai Lung himself is starting to believe that the Dragon Scroll made him the perfect warrior. Then, after the "secret" is revealed, the widdle kitty's just too confused and pissed to fight well.

Oh, and Po's too fat for the nerve strikes to work. :smallbiggrin:

It was a rather large leap in abilities, and I agree that a Forbidden Kingdom-style ending where Po was essential to his defeat but was still utterly dominated would have made more sense. But Kung Fu Panda was good enough otherwise, and Forbidden Kingdom so god-awful bad otherwise, that I didn't mind the end not making so much sense.

[Dvandemon]

Did anyone else find Tai Lung to be a sympathetic character? He's known throughout the movie as a terrible person, but we never see any of his crimes. I'm sure he clubbed seals or stole candy from a baby or something else terrible so they had to lock him up. Instead in my view, he's someone with ambition and skill that didn't react well to the capricious decisions of his master's master.

My major issue with Kung Fu Panda is they set up Tai Lung as a bad ass antagonist and then completely removed that when he fought Po. It's possible for a completely inept character to become slightly less inept and yet not overshadow his or her peers who have been working at this for awhile. The Forbidden Kingdom, the movie with Jet Li and Jackie Chan, managed to use the "destined hero" idea, but in a more logical manner.

I know I felt a little sorry for him

[Indon]

That's pretty much the opposite of Kung Fu Panda, then, isn't it? Po spends all his time dreaming of being an awesome kung fu warrior without actually doing anything to get there, then gets cosmically handpicked to be the Dragon Warrior instead of all the students who've been training and working for it.

Well, Po did have Chekov's Fu there at the beginning when he demonstrated keen physical capabilities related to food serving (you try balancing *one* hot bowl of noodles on your body, let alone the eight or so Po manages without any training whatsoever). He does so again when he prepares noodles for the Five.

The implication is that Po was, in fact, very talented, but he wasn't employing his talents consciously towards martial arts.

Edit: And Tai Lung wasn't really a villain - instead, he was a tragic hero, whose downfall was his pride. Without that pride, even, he could have grasped the wisdom of the Dragon Scroll and presumably demonstrated himself to be as much the Dragon Warrior as Po eventually did, but it was that pride which caused him to reject it.

[Joran]

The implication is that Po was, in fact, very talented, but he wasn't employing his talents consciously towards martial arts.


Actually, now I remember the exact words I said after watching the movie. "Did that movie just reject the trope of "If you want something bad enough and work hard enough to try to achieve it, you'll attain it." Because, the person who fit that was Tai Lung, the villain. The Kung Fu Panda was instead naturally gifted and worked a fraction as hard and yet was the chosen one.

[Jerthanis]

Actually, now I remember the exact words I said after watching the movie. "Did that movie just reject the trope of "If you want something bad enough and work hard enough to try to achieve it, you'll attain it." Because, the person who fit that was Tai Lung, the villain. The Kung Fu Panda was instead naturally gifted and worked a fraction as hard and yet was the chosen one.

To be perfectly fair though, Kung Fu Panda isn't the first movie to ever embrace this message.

Also, the final battle was one of enlightenment, and training for a long time has little bearing on your emotional or spiritual strength.

[Joran]

To be perfectly fair though, Kung Fu Panda isn't the first movie to ever embrace this message.

Also, the final battle was one of enlightenment, and training for a long time has little bearing on your emotional or spiritual strength.

I'm sure that being jailed underground, unable to move a finger, with physically abusive guards for 10 20 years has a negative effect on one's mental state.

[Jerthanis]

I'm sure that being jailed underground, unable to move a finger, with physically abusive guards for 10 20 years has a negative effect on one's mental state.

He was jailed for going on a murderous rampage because someone didn't say he was the most awesome guy in the world.

He didn't have much of it to start off with.

[Brother Oni]

And the Ninja Turtles aren't ninjas, as they don't hide, they don't assassinate anyone, nor do they use any real ninjutsu.

In the first movie, they do a pretty good job of being ninja, hiding in April's apartment while her semi-boyfriend looks about the place.

Unfortunately, that's about the extent of their supposed ninja abilities in all three live action movies.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Unfortunately, that's about the extent of their supposed ninja abilities in all three live action movies.

Most people (*cough* Naruto *cough*) thinks that Ninja = Martial Artists.

The Ninja Turtles were Martial Artists, not ninjas...

But in most people's mind, Oogway is thereof a Ninja Turtle :-)

[Avilan the Grey]

Did anyone else find Tai Lung to be a sympathetic character?

No. Because he is obviously evil. If he had only been robbed of his great dream, then yes. But this is a psychopath, willing to kill and maim innocents to make a point.

[Joran]

No. Because he is obviously evil. If he had only been robbed of his great dream, then yes. But this is a psychopath, willing to kill and maim innocents to make a point.

Right, but we never saw him actually kill or maim anyone, we're only told that he did, allowing my mind to gloss over the "HE KILLED PEOPLE" fact. In fact, I can't remember anything he did on screen that was particularly evil. He spared the Fighting Five when he could have easily killed them all.

I blame Sifu and Oogway. Sifu trained Tai Lung toward a specific goal without instilling the necessary coping mechanisms if his flaky master rejected his pupil. By focusing on a goal, instead of the journey, Sifu set his pupil up for failure. Oogway just pulled his mysterious crap and never fully explained his reasoning, didn't stop Tai Lung's rampage until AFTER people were hurt even though it apparently took him no effort, then locked him up and threw away the key without any apparent attempts at rehabilitation. Once Tai Lung escaped, he then left for the spirit plane, leaving the entire valley defenseless except for his pupil, who failed once to defeat Tai Lung, and an untrained panda.

Tai Lung is responsible for his own actions (see: Anakin Skywalker), but his masters did a poor job of raising him.

[Dvandemon]

The TV Tropes page description for Kung Fu Panda says that Tai Lung has such low self-esteem that he couldn't comprehend the scroll's message. What do you think of that statement?

[Tirian]

The TV Tropes page description for Kung Fu Panda says that Tai Lung has such low self-esteem that he couldn't comprehend the scroll's message. What do you think of that statement?

Frankly, one part of the movie that did work is that I think that Oogway was right that Po is the only person who could have appreciated the wisdom of the Dragon Scroll. Everyone else saw their capabilities as being overshadowed by someone else and was therefore blind to the fact that the next level of advancement would come TO them instead of FROM them.

[Amiel]

I'm kind of with Tirian here. The idea of being true to yourself and having hope seems like a good message at first . . . then you think back over the movie and realise that all of the Five did all that too, trained for years and years, and ended up being completely irrelevant, while Po just walked in, did a tenth of the work that they did, and became the hero.

Ah, the Five were well trained, but were they trained well?

Tai Lung was the only disciple to who Shifu showed any real emotion; to all others, he presented a stoic, emotionally distant demeanor coupled with bottled-up anger. He wasn't the kind and loving father he was to Tai Lung that he was to the Five.

When he was training Po, we see that same coldness and even anger, but gradually we see it thaw and he even smiles; something he did not previously do; profound happiness also seems to suffuse him. The story was not only about Po, the central character, but also about the shift in Shifu's view of seeing the world and others; remember when he couldn't even concentrate to meditate?
But doing that; by being tolerant, by seeing past all inadequacies into the soul within, by truly understanding his student, he was able to train Po to be every bit as powerful as Tai Lung if not more so.
This is what Oogway means by Po bringing peace to him. He managed to achieve harminuous union with soul and focus.

And I believe that Po already had the prerequisite skills (working in his dad's restaurant), he just needed to refine them.


[...]then gets cosmically handpicked to be the Dragon Warrior instead of all the students who've been training and working for it.

Not so much comically handpicked, moreso because Oogway was and remains the wisest of all. "There are no accidents"


Did anyone else find Tai Lung to be a sympathetic character? He's known throughout the movie as a terrible person, but we never see any of his crimes.

Raises hand

We are, however, presented with a scene (several actually) where he is shown to be violently attacking and perhaps maiming and killing the villagers. Unless of course this was hyperbole.


Tai Lung's qi attacks on Po were also stopped by his inordinately thick fur, that or perhaps his fat.


The film never gives a good explanation for how Po can beat Tai Lung when the Five and their master can't - it's just part of the story that he's the Dragon Warrior, so he has to win, even though he's unfit and inexperienced. I found it kinda lame.

Actually, all of that is there.

Po was the the most humble out of the students and the one who truly understood the message and meaning behind "there is no secret ingredient"; all others suffered from some degree of arrogance.

[Avilan the Grey]

Right, but we never saw him actually kill or maim anyone, we're only told that he did, allowing my mind to gloss over the "HE KILLED PEOPLE" fact. In fact, I can't remember anything he did on screen that was particularly evil. He spared the Fighting Five when he could have easily killed them all.

I blame Sifu and Oogway. Sifu trained Tai Lung toward a specific goal without instilling the necessary coping mechanisms if his flaky master rejected his pupil. By focusing on a goal, instead of the journey, Sifu set his pupil up for failure. Oogway just pulled his mysterious crap and never fully explained his reasoning, didn't stop Tai Lung's rampage until AFTER people were hurt even though it apparently took him no effort, then locked him up and threw away the key without any apparent attempts at rehabilitation. Once Tai Lung escaped, he then left for the spirit plane, leaving the entire valley defenseless except for his pupil, who failed once to defeat Tai Lung, and an untrained panda.

Tai Lung is responsible for his own actions (see: Anakin Skywalker), but his masters did a poor job of raising him.

I agree to a point, especially your last sentence (although technically I think he only had one master; Oogway was Sifu's master and therefore Tai Lung had to call him master, but his actual master was Sifu. I think it is more an inherited flaw: Oogway trusted Sifu to know what he was doing and Sifu failed him as much as he failed Tai Lung. This is why Sifu is so utterly guilt ridden; he has a threefold of guilt: Towards the hurt and killed villagers. Towards Tai Lung. And towards Oogway.
However, I do think that Tai Lung had (for a lack of a better word) "evil" tendencies. Sifu should have noticed them, but even if he did everything right, Tai Lung might have turned out this way anyway.


Actually, all of that is there.

Po was the the most humble out of the students and the one who truly understood the message and meaning behind "there is no secret ingredient"; all others suffered from some degree of arrogance.

Exactly. It was very obvious to me why he was the one to beat Tai Lung; he is the opposite. Humble, kind, simple (in the good way).
Plus his fat stopped the nerve attacks :smallbiggrin:

Oh and Edit:
I have to add something important to this: Remember, this is a Kung Fu movie that happens to be made with CGI animals. This is not a typical western cartoon. That is why a lot of the messages can seem "inverted", because they fit with Chinese stereotypes and tropes, not western ones.
(The degree of which Dreamworks pulled this off can be seen in the fact that the Chinese gov. basically asked Chinese filmmakers why they can't make movies about Chinese culture that are as good, and as respectful of the source material as one made by an American company)

[Mr White]

I'm an omnivore when it comes to movies and animations. I watch everything and I can enjoy it as long as it's well made (definition pending).


Tigress a promising student shunted off during training because of Shifu's inability to love, and then the best of the Furious Five but overlooked to avenge her pain against Tai Lung because the duty falls to an untrained oaf, and then she has to process her anger in light of the fact that her comrades are warming up to Po. Let her take the first steps in training Po before handing him off to Shifu for the dumpling scene, then the rest of the movie like it was and you've got something reminiscent of Bull Durham except much more emotionally involved. I'd sure watch the hell out of it.

I really would want to watch this to. With a bit of attention this could still be a movie for the whole family (children aren't stupid). It would be a superiour movie, unfortunatly it wouldn't be such a great success financially.

P.S.
And my brother assured me that it was the most beautiful Western animation he had ever seen.

I assume he isn't really familiar with a lot of western animation then.

[Tirian]

I assume he isn't really familiar with a lot of western animation then.

I trust that he was thinking of major studio work and being hyperbolic even then. But if you have recommendations, I'm sure he'd appreciate me passing them along.

[Mr White]

What's his preference?

Waltzing with Bashir has gotten a lot of good press lately but it's not really lightharted material.

[Avilan the Grey]

What's his preference?

Waltzing with Bashir has gotten a lot of good press lately but it's not really lightharted material.

I do find Kung Fu panda beautiful. It is not extraordinary (like say Finding Nemo was when it was released; by the standard of the day the coral reef was breathtaking). My personal favorite is Lilo & Stitch due to the hand painted watercolor backgrounds.

[Amiel]

By the standards of Western animation, Kung Fu Panda is one of the more beautiful masterpieces, at least on par with Pixar's works; graphically, emotionally and storywise.
I actually like Dreamworks Animation movies, I really liked Ice Age (the original Ice Age, the others never existed), and found myself crying at the end.

Kung Fu Panda is a great coming-of-age film (coming-of-age referring to the story rather than an inexperienced film studio breaking out), that has, erroneously, been lumped as just a kids flick; which is unfortunate as only a matured, experienced mind can appreciate all the nuances and subtleties of this great film.

[Primal Fury]

I really enjoyed this movie, though there were a few issues I had with it:

They could have done so much more with the Furious Five. Their characterization was much to shallow for my tastes.

I found Tai Lung to be a very tragic hero. At the end he almost seemed like a child throwing a tantrum, especially during that fight between him and Sifu. He was raised to be this amazing hero, but Oogway said he "saw darkness in him" whatever that means.

And I really don't think Po needed to kill Tai Lung. He really couldn't fight anymore, not after the beating Po laid on him; using the Wushi Finger Hold on him was just going to far. After realizing the secret of the Dragon Scroll, his spirit was broken, he didn't have anything left to fight for. He could have gone through a bit of rehabilitation, now that he's seen that his goal is unattainable. But no, he simply had to die. :smallannoyed:

[SolkaTruesilver]

/turn Undead Thread

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