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nysisobli
2010-02-28, 07:14 PM
Im building a character for a campaign, and ever player is starting off at level 1, and as humans. We are not allowed to pick any classes that use magic, however supernatural powers like the monks are still acceptable. I was trying to build a level 1 character who duel wields great axes, can anyone help me?

BRC
2010-02-28, 07:16 PM
No.

Short of loads of probably broken homebrew, I don't think it's possible to build a 1st level character that can wield a 2-hander in one hand without taking some massive penalty, much less one in each hand.

At Epic Levels it's an option, but not at first.

sonofzeal
2010-02-28, 07:24 PM
Not at ECL 1, but a Dolgrim Figher 1 (or Thrikeen too, really) can do this just fine.

Kylarra
2010-02-28, 07:25 PM
Monkey Grip unfortunately does not allow you to wield a larger weapon in your offhand. You need the epic improvement feat Wield Oversized Weapon for that.

Skorj
2010-02-28, 07:25 PM
Not in core, but you can do it with the common books (not even ToB). You probably want to try for "large" weapons, not specifically 2-handed weapons. I believe you can do this as a level 1 human fighter, or using flaws to get 3 feats.

The feats you want are:
2-Weapon fighting (15 DEX)
Oversized 2WF (2WF + 13 STR) - from CA
Monkey Grip (+1 BAB) - from CW


This isn't ideal char-op, but it's fun. Even more so if you can find a way to play a large race.

EDIT: oops, Kylarra is right - but see if your DM will allow it anyway, it's hardly unbalancing. :smallsmile:

BRC
2010-02-28, 07:29 PM
Monkey Grip dosn't let you wield larger size weapons in your off hand, and you still have the -2 penalty.

Closest thing I can think of would be a Human Fighter, take EWP Dwarven Waraxe (Or a dwarf fighter), and TWF, you'll be taking a -4 penalty on both attacks. If you use a light axe in your offhand, it's a -2 penalty on each attack instead.

nysisobli
2010-02-28, 07:36 PM
wasn't there a feat somewhere called ambidextrous that removed the off hand penalties?

Soranar
2010-02-28, 07:38 PM
At level 1 , not really.

I think powerful build would let you use a 2 hander in 1 hand. And to prevent the need for DEX just make a ranger.

You can then take the feat Oversized two weapon fighting to slightly reduce your penalties.

Your to hit penalties would be incredibly high though, simpler to just play something with 2 knives instead.

ranger (and paladin) have an option from Complete champion to dump spellcasting for bonus feats (from a restricted list)

nysisobli
2010-02-28, 07:39 PM
The knives are simpler, but its the flavor im looking for.

sofawall
2010-02-28, 07:39 PM
wasn't there a feat somewhere called ambidextrous that removed the off hand penalties?

Ambidexterity was a 3.0 feat.

BRC
2010-02-28, 07:39 PM
wasn't there a feat somewhere called ambidextrous that removed the off hand penalties?

A quick search reveals that such a feat exists for 4e
Which edition is this?

Kylarra
2010-02-28, 07:39 PM
Not in core, but you can do it with the common books (not even ToB). You probably want to try for "large" weapons, not specifically 2-handed weapons. I believe you can do this as a level 1 human fighter, or using flaws to get 3 feats.

The feats you want are:
2-Weapon fighting (15 DEX)
Oversized 2WF (2WF + 13 STR) - from CA
Monkey Grip (+1 BAB) - from CW


This isn't ideal char-op, but it's fun. Even more so if you can find a way to play a large race.

EDIT: oops, Kylarra is right - but see if your DM will allow it anyway, it's hardly unbalancing. :smallsmile:Human Fighter. Take 2WF, Oversized TWF and EWP Dwarven Waraxe.
Only D10 damage per hand, but frankly that's better than taking the additional -2 penalty in order to deal 2D6 per hand, assuming you could get the DM to agree to that.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-02-28, 07:40 PM
The closest thing to greataxe dual-wielding would probably be dwarven waraxe + TWF + oversized TWF, maybe plus Monkey Grip. I suggest a barbarian with Spirit Lion Totem, using flaws to get Dwarven Waraxe + Two-Weapon Fighting + Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting. That way you can full attack on a charge, and get both your hits in.
Or Warblade might be a better idea, I dunno.

Soranar
2010-02-28, 07:41 PM
if you're allowed templates and other races

multiheaded (+2 LA for a medium sized character) gives you superior two-weapon fighting for free (no dual wielding penalties, at all and full iteratives), on top of several other benefits (Con, other free feats)

well thats if you don't mind being a freak

Androgeus
2010-02-28, 07:43 PM
ermm I think EWP(warmace), TWF and Oversized TWF would work. You would however be taking -2 to your ac. (A Warmace is an exotic weapon from CW, 1d12 dmg, but -1 to ac when wield in 1h).
This is the closest you can come in terms of damage, while keeping a moderate to-hit.

DragoonWraith
2010-02-28, 07:52 PM
Yeah, I think it's perhaps a bit unclear: what edition are you playing?

nysisobli
2010-02-28, 07:55 PM
3.5 edition/pathfinder

Kylarra
2010-02-28, 07:55 PM
The closest thing to greataxe dual-wielding would probably be dwarven waraxe + TWF + oversized TWF, maybe plus Monkey Grip. I suggest a barbarian with Spirit Lion Totem, using flaws to get Dwarven Waraxe + Two-Weapon Fighting + Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting. That way you can full attack on a charge, and get both your hits in.
Or Warblade might be a better idea, I dunno.Assuming 3.5, at some point you'll definitely want that barbarian level, I don't think so much at level 1 though.

Beelzebub1111
2010-02-28, 07:58 PM
Half-Giant fighter 1 can weild two Large Battle Axes...Granted you aren't using d12s, but 2d6 with a x3 crit in each hand isn't too bad. You just have to roll MONSTER dexterity.

if you're willing to wait another level, you can wield 2 large Dwarven Waraxes. for 2d8 x3 crit in each hand.

Eldariel
2010-02-28, 11:05 PM
So yeah, you can't do it on level 1 by default, but I'd like to point out that Revenant Blade PrC for Valenar Elves [PGtE] gains the ability to treat both ends of Valenar Double Scimitar as two-handed weapons on level 5. Something to consider. Could be refluffed/adapted to match what you want.

ericgrau
2010-02-28, 11:18 PM
Obligitory:

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z256/filipinoromel/Giant_51_Final_Fantasy_7_Cloud_Bust.jpg

KillianHawkeye
2010-02-28, 11:34 PM
Ambidexterity was a 3.0 feat.

Note: The benefits of Ambidexterity were folded into the Two-Weapon Fighting feat in D&D 3.5.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-01, 12:14 AM
Totemist 2 can give you 4 arms, which gets the job done (sorta).

Thurbane
2010-03-01, 12:29 AM
I'm currently playing a dwarf that dual wields dwarven waraxes (Oversized Two Weapon Fighting). Throw in a pair of Strongarm Bracers, and you've got two 2d8 axes in your hands. Won't be doable at 1st level, though.

ZeroNumerous
2010-03-01, 01:38 AM
Human Fighter with one flaw. Take 2WF, Oversized TWF and EWP Dwarven Waraxe.

Basically the best idea presented. 'Cept you don't need the flaw(just use your human feat, fighter bonus feat and regular feat).

Kylarra
2010-03-01, 01:50 AM
Basically the best idea presented. 'Cept you don't need the flaw(just use your human feat, fighter bonus feat and regular feat).Oh hey I miscounted. I am ashamed. :smallredface:

lightningcat
2010-03-01, 02:56 AM
Alternatively you could go with a Goliath Fighter with one flaw. Take 2WF, Oversized 2WF and EWP Dwarven Waraxe. Then use large-sized Dwarven Waraxes.
I've seen this build with bastard swords instead of the dwarven waraxes.

EDIT: Actually it would be Huge-sized Dwarven Waraxes, which is even more fun.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-01, 04:30 AM
Technically, anybody can dual-wield 2-handers, by picking up a pair of Bastard Swords.

Doing it well is a different matter. :smallwink:

Ravens_cry
2010-03-01, 04:39 AM
Technically, anybody can dual-wield 2-handers, by picking up a pair of Bastard Swords.

Doing it well is a different matter. :smallwink:
. . .said the actress to the bishop.:smalltongue:

Bayar
2010-03-01, 05:14 AM
Wield a small greataxe in your main hand and a tiny greataxe in your off hand. Yeah, not what you wanted, but the only way to dual wield greataxes at level 1 in core as a human.

Xenogears
2010-03-01, 09:31 AM
Too bad you hafta be human. The Diopsid Race from Dragon Compendium is literally made for this concept. LA+1 race that has the racial ability to dual wield two-handed weapons and ignore the dex requirements on TWF feats. Granted your a four-armed beetle-man but still...

Tyndmyr
2010-03-01, 10:19 AM
Monkey Grip unfortunately does not allow you to wield a larger weapon in your offhand. You need the epic improvement feat Wield Oversized Weapon for that.

Is this obtainable via dragonwrought kobold and flaws?

Note that this would still be horribly, horribly sub-par as a build, but it might make it possible.

Kylarra
2010-03-01, 10:22 AM
Is this obtainable via dragonwrought kobold and flaws?

Note that this would still be horribly, horribly sub-par as a build, but it might make it possible.Not unless you can also swing BAB 21 and STR 25.

Tyndmyr
2010-03-01, 10:32 AM
Not unless you can also swing BAB 21 and STR 25.

Hmmm. Str 25 is probably possible in isolation, but not on a kobold. The racials just don't work out. BaB 21 is even more unpossible.

Of course, I don't see it working out for human, either. It's an interesting concept, but it's not really doable at level 1. In fairness, it probably is a bit crazy for level 1 anyhow.

Person_Man
2010-03-01, 10:41 AM
Is there a reason you can't just use the statistics for a battle ax + throwing ax, and just say that they're oversized anime like axes?

Kylarra
2010-03-01, 10:41 AM
Hmmm. Str 25 is probably possible in isolation, but not on a kobold. The racials just don't work out. BaB 21 is even more unpossible.

Of course, I don't see it working out for human, either. It's an interesting concept, but it's not really doable at level 1. In fairness, it probably is a bit crazy for level 1 anyhow.Dual-wielding the Dwarven Waraxes will probably have to suffice for a human. Next level he could take fighter2, pick up power attack and be doing equivalent damage to monkey grip shenanigans for less penalty.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-01, 03:10 PM
I like it better with Psi Warrior and Inspired (psychic human from eberron. Its human +1 pp)

Evard
2010-03-01, 03:26 PM
Get two arms grafted onto your character, you now have 4 arms. 2 handed weapons on each side :D You may need to take a couple monster feats or something (hey you have 4 arms you are a monster now :p )

Darrin
2010-03-01, 05:14 PM
Get two arms grafted onto your character, you now have 4 arms. 2 handed weapons on each side :D You may need to take a couple monster feats or something (hey you have 4 arms you are a monster now :p )

I think I saw in Savage Species somewhere that the Girallon Arms spell can be Permanenced.

A 2-level dip into Totemist allows you to bind the Girallon Arms soulmeld to your totem chakra. This gives you four claw attacks, and according to the fluff, four glowing blue arms. It's not clear if it gives you four fully-functioning hands, though.

Evard
2010-03-01, 05:17 PM
Not sure about that build but the idea of a 4 armed player duel wielding Great Swords is yummy :D

magic9mushroom
2010-03-02, 12:31 AM
I like it better with Psi Warrior and Inspired (psychic human from eberron. Its human +1 pp)

Aren't Inspired gribbly evil monsters from dreamland out to conquer the world?

Devils_Advocate
2010-03-02, 05:25 AM
Why are you specifically trying to build a character who uses weapons so absurdly oversized for one-handed use that it's barely plausible that he could wield one in each hand at all, much less well?

I've never seen the appeal in the whole "My character's sword is ridiculously big" thing. Replacing "sword is" with "axes are" leaves me feeling no less perplexed. :smallconfused:

Vizzerdrix
2010-03-02, 05:59 AM
Too bad you hafta be human. The Diopsid Race from Dragon Compendium is literally made for this concept. LA+1 race that has the racial ability to dual wield two-handed weapons and ignore the dex requirements on TWF feats. Granted your a four-armed beetle-man but still...

You say that like it's a bad thing :smallmad:

Raendyn
2010-03-02, 07:04 AM
I think I saw in Savage Species ...

.

3.5e wasn't it?

magic9mushroom
2010-03-02, 07:06 AM
3.5e wasn't it?

Savage Species was never updated and is hence still legal.

Raendyn
2010-03-02, 07:18 AM
Savage Species was never updated and is hence still legal.

There are many feats/spells/blah/ blah/ blah/...

from savage spieces that have been updated.
It's true that there was never a book that had the subtitle " playing monstrus characters in 3.5 e revision." but still spell compendium,underdark,lords of madness & especially serpent kingdoms note that they update features from savage spieces.
So,whatever was to be updated has already been updated.so book is far from legal,& don't forget SS=pun pun. Isn't it obvious that the book has problems?

It's like hearing "there was no update for BoVD so its still legal.."

That's all for SS.Magic mushroom we have re-done this conversation in an other thread,let's not repeat it.dezavu is not my best:smallwink:

magic9mushroom
2010-03-02, 07:20 AM
There are many feats/spells/blah/ blah/ blah/...

from savage spieces that have been updated.
It's true that there was never a book that had the subtitle " playing monstrus characters in 3.5 e revision." but still spell compendium,underdark,lords of madness & especially serpent kingdoms note that they update features from savage spieces.
So,whatever was to be updated has already been updated.so book is far from legal,& don't forget SS=pun pun. Isn't it obvious that the book has problems?

It's like hearing "there was no update for BoVD so its still legal.."

That's all for SS.Magic mushroom we have re-done this conversation in an other thread,let's not repeat it.dezavu is not my best:smallwink:

We have, and you're still wrong by WotC policy, and it's spelled deja vu, and I still don't like being given a thumbs-down.

Eldariel
2010-03-02, 07:21 AM
Actually, Serpent Kingdoms = Pun-Pun. All it takes is Core and SK to ascend.

Raendyn
2010-03-02, 07:39 AM
We have, and you're still wrong by WotC policy, and it's spelled deja vu, and I still don't like being given a thumbs-down.

Whatever you say. I had no interest in changing your mind.(i actually don't believe this is possible)It's just sad to see players that have spend so much time reading all those books & web enhancements,(which is really admireable),but never touched the Players handbook.Ending up making themshelves so happy that they play RAW.but they can't even see that the "RAW" is a fragile mechanism that when speaking of"cheesy" or "broken" it mostly depends on, your point of view,& your unique-personal way of translating the text.

Furthermore,such way of thinking is always a thumbs-down.& i mostly added it because.i might be who i am & you are something different.but blah blah around ppl who try to figure out some things... is a bad thing.
It is not needed the WotC to publish a book "Savage spieces for 3.5e revision".to throw the old one away.If you can't understand it it's ok. just don't advice others to do so themshelves.

Also pun pun is SS.at least the completly-legal version.
it can be done at lvl 27 based on savage spieces & tattoed monk.along with dragon magic & stuff. but there is too much of " assuming you can do this & that" is this build that renders it "non-legal".

Eldariel
2010-03-02, 11:40 AM
Also pun pun is SS.at least the completly-legal version.
it can be done at lvl 27 based on savage spieces & tattoed monk.along with dragon magic & stuff. but there is too much of " assuming you can do this & that" is this build that renders it "non-legal".

...no, the basis of Pun-Pun, the legal version, is Sarrukh and its ability "Manipulate Form". You don't need 27 levels or even 20 levels. You need either:
- Access to Gate/Planar Binding - most easily enough money to purchase Candle of Invocation (or some other source of one such as Pazuzu)
- Enough levels to cast Shapechange
- Metamorphosis and Metamorphic Transfer
- Polymorph and Assume Supernatural Ability

The last one is the only one at all aided by Savage Species. It's also the hardest to accomplish. The first two are purely Player's Handbook Only. The only outside source they need to begin the ascension.


For various reasons, Gate is by far the fastest; most importantly this gives you a Sarrukh under your control (you can Gate Efreet for Wishes to correct minor inconsistencies, like lack of Being Scales One of Toril before) as opposed to turning you into Sarrukh at which point the Sarrukh can grant you Manipulate Form.

This means you don't need to meet the HD limitation of inherent in Polymorph/Metamorphosis. All you need is Manipulate Form so acquiring that is enough; you have no need to actually turn into Sarrukh. Heck, since Sarrukh can't affect Sarrukhs, if turning, you might need to use a proxy like your Familiar to do it at all, turning from the Sarrukh-form and having them grant you Manipulate Form.

2xMachina
2010-03-02, 01:19 PM
There are many feats/spells/blah/ blah/ blah/...

from savage spieces that have been updated.
It's true that there was never a book that had the subtitle " playing monstrus characters in 3.5 e revision." but still spell compendium,underdark,lords of madness & especially serpent kingdoms note that they update features from savage spieces.
So,whatever was to be updated has already been updated.so book is far from legal,& don't forget SS=pun pun. Isn't it obvious that the book has problems?

It's like hearing "there was no update for BoVD so its still legal.."

That's all for SS.Magic mushroom we have re-done this conversation in an other thread,let's not repeat it.dezavu is not my best:smallwink:

Well, even if parts of it are updated, the non-updated parts are still legal. Updated parts? Use the updated stats. So, everything in SS works, with some updates as necessary.