My Stubborn Friend

[waterpenguin43]

After seeing another thread about monks, I decided to post my issue. My friend is very, VERY bent on the idea that psions are better than wizards because they can do a lot of damage in a short period of time and some more stuff. I keep trying to convince him that wizards are better but he WON'T agree. I have tried a lot of arguments, but I think if somebody with more experience at D&D (It's only been about a year of DM'ing for me.) I might talk some sense into him.
Can you help?

[tahu88810]

You're both wrong. They're kind of on a level playing field.

[FishAreWet]

You're both wrong. They're kind of on a level playing field.

..not really.

And your friend is actually wrong about the Nova ability of psions. I believe the build is known as Mailman or something like that, Wizards can put out a lot more.

And simply in the nature of ML limiting augmentation vs the nature of getting free metamagics. And the fact that magic has a much stronger splatbook support.

Magic is simply a stronger system.

[Tao the Ninja]

Try building a lv20 wizard, having him build a lv20 psion, and kick his butt.

[lsfreak]

Wizards have options - they can redo their spell list every day, and have access to a *huge* number of spells.

Psions have a much more limited access, but are better at certain things. A psion does make a very impressive nova-machine, topped only by mailman/Cindy wizards (metamagic reduction abuse on orb spells) and sorcerers (arcane spellsurge + arcane fusion).

The thing is, psions and sorcerers CAN do one thing at a time better than wizards. It's just that while psions and sorcerers break one or two things at once, wizards can break everything. Maybe not quite as well as someone focused, but there comes a point where you just **** up so much that the fact that someone does one of those things a little better is inconsequential.

So you're both right, in a way.

(EDIT: It could be said that psions are a better class than wizards, specifically because they can't break everything.)

[Apropos]

Psions and Wizards should be about equal, but the fact is, Wizards have a much more diverse list of spells to choose from. Not only that, but they can actually use metamagics, boosting their power much higher. Finally, while Psion seems to be able to output much more damage, it is still limited by the action economy and the fact that they'll probably get killed by the next SOD the wizard is about to cast.

[Kylarra]

As said above, in terms of single output power, psion (and sorcerer) are on par with the wizard. The difference between tier 2 and tier 1 is versatility, not a measure of power.

[zarakstan]

In a duel a well put together wizard would beat a psion with ease (probably). They can do more diverse things and have far more spells available from sources only adding to their versatility. In my opinion, however, a psion has more staying power. With the power-point system a psion can easily get ~375 power points by 20th level. That means about 16 fully boosted (and over-channeled) 23 power point powers used. That's alot, and considering only about 1/3 to 1/2 of your spells will need to be that augmented you're talking anywhere between 30 - 50 powers per day.

[Olo Demonsbane]

In a duel a well put together wizard would beat a psion with ease (probably). They can do more diverse things and have far more spells available from sources only adding to their versatility. In my opinion, however, a psion has more staying power. With the power-point system a psion can easily get ~375 power points by 20th level. That means about 16 fully boosted (and over-channeled) 23 power point powers used. That's alot, and considering only about 1/3 to 1/2 of your spells will need to be that augmented you're talking anywhere between 30 - 50 powers per day.

I have a 13th level psion that can blow all of his power points in one round. A straight psion. I also have a cerembrancer that has, and can go through, 5000 power points in a single round.

[Tinydwarfman]

I have a 13th level psion that can blow all of his power points in one round. A straight psion. I also have a cerembrancer that has, and can go through, 5000 power points in a single round.

You do realize that you cannot augment over your ML right? Or are you getting infinite actions?

[lsfreak]

I have a 13th level psion that can blow all of his power points in one round. A straight psion. I also have a cerembrancer that has, and can go through, 5000 power points in a single round.

Yea, a duel probably won't prove much. Sorcerers and psions are both outstanding novas.

What would help illustrate it to your friend is a short, single-shot, solo dungeon crawl, or maybe a three-person team, where the other two members are the same. He runs a psion, you run a wizard. Make it *challenging.* Show him how a wizard deals with encounters more efficiently than a psion.

[tyckspoon]

You do realize that you cannot augment over your ML right? Or are you getting infinite actions?

Psionics allows some really really nasty action abuses, yes.

[waterpenguin43]

Yea, a duel probably won't prove much. Sorcerers and psions are both outstanding novas.

What would help illustrate it to your friend is a short, single-shot, solo dungeon crawl, or maybe a three-person team, where the other two members are the same. He runs a psion, you run a wizard. Make it *challenging.* Show him how a wizard deals with encounters more efficiently than a psion.

Ok, I haven't heard the term Nova before, but I take it it means can do incredibly but only for a short period of time?

Thanks for the plan....
Muahahaha!!

[sonofzeal]

Psions make better out-of-the-box blasters than Wizards. This is true, and you shouldn't try to refute it. Wizards, though, have many dozens of times more spells out there, more feats, more PrCs. Out of SRD, Wizards can do far more blasting than Psions ever can. Even in SRD-only play, the Wizard has a whole lot more options available to him, and can do all sorts of other nasty things that the Psion can't emulate.

The strengths of the Psion are Charm/Dominate, and blasting. In these two areas, they're pretty awesome and should compare favorably against most things. The strengths of the Wizard are buff, utility, battlefield control, and being able to hit everything where it's weakest. Wizard has far more flexibility, far more options for problem solving, and far more really broken spells. In a power contest, Wizard wins.

[Wings of Peace]

Wizard's biggest pro versus Psion in my opinion is that the Wizard's effects scale with his level naturally.