Heavy Rain

[Zeta Kai]

OMG, Heavy Rain is the coolest game EVAR. Okay, perhaps not, but it is certainly innovative & engrossing. The story is very compelling, the dialogue is superb (not to mention very natural; no Hollywood-chat), & the interface is deceptively immersive (although it can be confusing at times). The only reason that I'm not playing right now (like I have been all day) is the fact that a Sony network error is preventing me (& apparently everyone else in the world) from playing.

So, what are your thoughts on this incredible experience?

[ZeroNumerous]

So, what are your thoughts on this incredible experience?

I say a game system that requires a network of any sort just to play games you have personally purchased and manually inserted into the system is ludicrous. The simple task of playing a relaxing and enjoyable game should not be an arduous and epic undertaking requiring the slaying of virtual hydras.

But these are just my two bits, take 'em or leave 'em.

[Lord Blace]

I say a game system that requires a network of any sort just to play games you have personally purchased and manually inserted into the system is ludicrous. The simple task of playing a relaxing and enjoyable game should not be an arduous and epic undertaking requiring the slaying of virtual hydras.

But these are just my two bits, take 'em or leave 'em.

It actually has more to do with a y2k style leap year bug than the actual network its self. And it has me NERD-RAGING. :smallfurious:
It is also only affecting the 'fat' systems.

As for Heavy Rain, well, I was looking to pick it up soon, but if the problem isn't able to be fixed, I might be looking at getting a 360 instead. Maybe.

[Illieas]

OMG, Heavy Rain is the coolest game EVAR. Okay, perhaps not, but it is certainly innovative & engrossing. The story is very compelling, the dialogue is superb (not to mention very natural; no Hollywood-chat), & the interface is deceptively immersive (although it can be confusing at times). The only reason that I'm not playing right now (like I have been all day) is the fact that a Sony network error is preventing me (& apparently everyone else in the world) from playing.

So, what are your thoughts on this incredible experience?

it is pretty good so far the problem is that the voice acting could do better.
for example

when you first lose jason in the mall. your fratic cries sound very much like a looped machine when it should be more and more deperation as each time you hit X. it sounded like JAh-----SON!

just people need to emote the lines better.

The controls are kinda wonky. I don't like the fixed camera angles. as to screw things up when they switch and you need to reorient the stick to get the right direction your going for. Another problem is you don't know what specific actions would do when they show up. so you end up doing things you didn't want to do.

as for the good I like the QTE during combat car dodges and the button gymnastics you have to do holding down multiple buttons to give a good feel of what is being displayed.

Plot
i am still in the midst of doing it but it seems rather good.
some questions that sprang up doing ti but may get resolved

there is alot of mystery behind it all. but it feels very SAW like in execution you have to drive on the wrong side of the road. you have to crawl through glass shard tunnel and through a lightning area. and cut a section of a finger. it just seems over elborative requiring soo much premetitation and work to set these up.

I also don't get why he doesn't you tell the police.

this is under the assumption that he isn't killer which as my play through goes he belives he is the killer through some kinda multiple personalities plot.

just bugs me part three is the kid would probably die of hypothermia before he drowns probably with in the first day of raining

otherwise it has an awesome thriller feel to it. i like how the interplay between the charcters viewpoints helps place all the pieces of the puzzle together not in a straight line but patching it together.


current verdict
it is good start for the interactive movie genre. I hope to see more but with some improved controls.

[valadil]

I tried the demo yesterday. I was mostly in it for the graphics because a game based entirely on Quick Time Events sounded unappealing. And yet, I enjoyed it quite a bit. The fight scene was kinda silly but the investigation was a good time. To be honest I think RPGs could take a hint from this kind of game. This felt more like taking on a character than any electronic RPGs I've ever played.

I can't agree with the OP's assertion that the diablogue was superb. The text was alright, but the voice acting felt like something out of a B movie or high school theater production. It was bad. In some places it actually kept me from feeling immersed in the game. For all the money that went into advertisements you'd think they could have afforded better voice actors.

Much as I enjoyed it I think this will either be a rental or used purchase for me. I'm treating it as a choose your own adventure movie and I'm not interested in dropping $60 for a movie. I'm guessing it won't have great replay value (though I'd love to be proven wrong) so used copies will probably start showing up in the not too distant future.

[Anteros]

I'm not a big fan of movies, and not a big fan of quick time events in games. Combining both things into a 6-12 hour experience and asking me to pay 60 bucks for it....yeah, that's not going to happen.

Maybe instead of playing Heavy Rain, I'll just buy a mystery movie and go open chests in Mass Effect while it's on. Same thing really.

[Otogi]

OMG, Heavy Rain is the coolest game EVAR. Okay, perhaps not, but it is certainly innovative & engrossing. The story is very compelling, the dialogue is superb (not to mention very natural; no Hollywood-chat), & the interface is deceptively immersive (although it can be confusing at times). The only reason that I'm not playing right now (like I have been all day) is the fact that a Sony network error is preventing me (& apparently everyone else in the world) from playing.

So, what are your thoughts on this incredible experience?

It sounds pretty awesome, and I can see what makes it so engrossing, but what makes in innovative?

[Zeta Kai]

It sounds pretty awesome, and I can see what makes it so engrossing, but what makes in innovative?

1) The HUD is non-existent. You have no health. You have no lives. If one of your characters die, then the story goes on without them. Not 100% unique, but pretty damn rare in games to have any of those, let alone all of them.

2) You can move your character, but that's basically it for static controls. Everything else is handled by indirect button prompts: move a joystick this way to open a door, move it that way to pick something up, push a face button to dodge a punch, or move the whole controller to the side to swerve your car. It's all context sensitive, & you're only prompted when you can do something. The control scheme is written off by some as "just quick-time-events", but I think that there is only a superficial resemblence between the two things. This gameplay is unlike anything else; it's something that doesn't really have a name yet.

3) The story is by far the most mature & adult plotline in games, ever. It's literally incredible. This isn't mature like God of War, or adult like GTA. It's not a game PLUS BOOBZ. This is a game created by adults, who treat their audience like adults. It's cinematic in a very good way that is hard to describe, let alone define.

4) It doesn't matter what it is, it needs to be played. By me. Now. And with the 8001050F error for the PSN, I'm gonna go do just that.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

It actually has more to do with a y2k style leap year bug than the actual network its self. And it has me NERD-RAGING. :smallfurious:
It is also only affecting the 'fat' systems.

As for Heavy Rain, well, I was looking to pick it up soon, but if the problem isn't able to be fixed, I might be looking at getting a 360 instead. Maybe.

Which is odd, my PS3 fatty fat fat fat, was unaffected entirely.

[king.com]

3) The story is by far the most mature & adult plotline in games, ever. It's literally incredible. This isn't mature like God of War, or adult like GTA. It's not a game PLUS BOOBZ. This is a game created by adults, who treat their audience like adults. It's cinematic in a very good way that is hard to describe, let alone define.

Really? From what ive played ive seen very little of this "great matue & adult plotline". I mean at most its an expanded Law and Order Episode which details its characters and yes there is a + BOOBZ component. I honestly felt that games like Mass Effect or Deus Ex contained much more mature and complex ideas and themes and in the case of Deus Ex treated its characters and player with a far greater level of maturity. Perhaps the concepts expand as the game goes on but for me the analysis and subsequent decisions based upon your individual understanding of human nature is a far more mature concept than anything Heavy Rain could present.

Then again im someone who believes good Sci-Fi examines complex and mature ideas far better than drama so believe me how you will.

[Avilan the Grey]

OMG, Heavy Rain is the coolest game EVAR. Okay, perhaps not, but it is certainly innovative & engrossing. The story is very compelling, the dialogue is superb (not to mention very natural; no Hollywood-chat), & the interface is deceptively immersive (although it can be confusing at times). The only reason that I'm not playing right now (like I have been all day) is the fact that a Sony network error is preventing me (& apparently everyone else in the world) from playing.

So, what are your thoughts on this incredible experience?

Well I have looked at it and... no.
Basically this is not the kind of story I am interested in. I agree that the little voice acting I have heard is not exactly top notch.

[king.com]

Well I have looked at it and... no.
Basically this is not the kind of story I am interested in. I agree that the little voice acting I have heard is not exactly top notch.

Yea from what ive played everyone seems to sound really off. I dont think they used localised voice actors or something?

[valadil]

I honestly felt that games like Mass Effect or Deus Ex contained much more mature and complex ideas and themes and in the case of Deus Ex treated its characters and player with a far greater level of maturity.

Calling Heavy Rain less mature than Deus Ex is not a disservice to Heavy Rain. That still puts it in the 99th percentile of quality mature games.

[Avilan the Grey]

Calling Heavy Rain less mature than Deus Ex is not a disservice to Heavy Rain. That still puts it in the 99th percentile of quality mature games.

Of course it also depends on what you put in the word "Mature". Mature can mean everything from "T&A" to "Cthulhu". It can also mean deep and meaningful dialogue and wonderful backstories. Also, unfortunately "Friday 13th XXCV" and "Saw".
Personally I fail to see why extremely bizarre and unlikely scenarios with traumatic experiences is more "mature" than "T&A", because to me they always come across as bizarre for the sake of being bizarre, which at some point crosses a line and becomes almost childish. (See "The Path". Also, it seems, this game).

[MrPig]

Which is odd, my PS3 fatty fat fat fat, was unaffected entirely.

Likewise. From my understanding only the first few generations of the PS3 "fat" were affected, i.e. those with a built in PS2 compatibility. Unfortunately, I'm nearly at my monthly bandwitch cap, so I'll have to wait to try out the Heavy Rain demo.

[faceroll]

I say a game system that requires a network of any sort just to play games you have personally purchased and manually inserted into the system is ludicrous. The simple task of playing a relaxing and enjoyable game should not be an arduous and epic undertaking requiring the slaying of virtual hydras.

But these are just my two bits, take 'em or leave 'em.

You are really going to not like the future.

[ZeroNumerous]

You are really going to not like the future.

This is partly why I hate Steam and everything it stands for.


Of course it also depends on what you put in the word "Mature".

See: Heavy Rain is mature in the sense that it's not a game about saving the world. It's not a game about tramping about the galaxy, killing the bad guys and stopping Eldritch Horrors from farming humanity for XP. It's not a game about being the hero who stops a secret government cover-up aiming to conquer and control all of mankind.

It's a game about saving your son. It's a game about protecting what is important to you. Not about protecting the world because it's your duty, but because it's your own flesh and blood. Those who understand that feeling, that desire and willingness to do anything it takes to save something so important to you: Those players are the ones Heavy Rain is trying to reach.

That is, in my opinion, the key story in Heavy Rain. What will you do for your son?

[Zeta Kai]

Here is a major spoiler warning, concerning the plot of Heavy Rain:
About halfway through the game, you play the kidnapped boy's father, & in order to save him from the Origami Killer, he/you have to cut off the tip of one of your fingers. You have 5 minutes. You assemble your tools (a knife, some disinfectant, some booze, a hot metal rod for cauterizing the wound, etc.), & then you slowly, painfully, methodically do the deed. It's not a cut-scene. You control the character, taking this father through every deliberate step in severing one of his fingers. It's Saw-style horror, but without the exploitative hype, & with a strong family-man motivation.

The reason that I mention that is to give context for the next spoiler, which are squicky images illustrating my point.


http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s228/zetakai/Finger1.jpg
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s228/zetakai/Finger2.jpg
I lost the tip of my middle finger in an accident at the hospital where my wife was giving birth to our son. I could have gotten it reattached, but I would've missed the birth, by being stuck in surgery (which might not have worked anyway). I gladly gave up my finger for my son, & I'd do it again in a heartbeat. I can completely relate to the character's desperate quest to save his son. I've been there, & I would do the same.

And yes, the character's reaction to the deed was entirely accurate. I think that the game designers must've taped me.

[king.com]

See: Heavy Rain is mature in the sense that it's not a game about saving the world. It's not a game about tramping about the galaxy, killing the bad guys and stopping Eldritch Horrors from farming humanity for XP. It's not a game about being the hero who stops a secret government cover-up aiming to conquer and control all of mankind.

It's a game about saving your son. It's a game about protecting what is important to you. Not about protecting the world because it's your duty, but because it's your own flesh and blood. Those who understand that feeling, that desire and willingness to do anything it takes to save something so important to you: Those players are the ones Heavy Rain is trying to reach.

That is, in my opinion, the key story in Heavy Rain. What will you do for your son?

Okay i may aswell respond to this and valadils post. At no point did i say it was bad I simply said it was not the grand level of maturity that games have never seen before. I believe there is more mature stories out there and simply because it is a real world setting does not make it more mature.

Questioning the extent of family bonds is very difficult for a player who is not a parent themselves so i will not comment on the emotional impact but as previous post has said its obviosuly of some significance.

Saving the world can be a mature theme, particularly if you are forced to question whether the world itself needs to be or should even be saved. Killing badguys is a pretty general term. Take Deus Ex again, the terrorist group at the start, your asked by Paul to minimise casualties and even find out these guys are not "bad guys" at all. In fact your part of a system which is responsible for the problems.

Heavy Rain and its characters are not as deep as people seem to look at them as:

Sure the father could have been a great character, had the "JAA-SSSOOON!" scene not permantly turned him into comic relief to my ears. Shelby was interesting atleast until more of his character is revealed and i stopped accepting him as being remotely rational yet apparently acting that way when the script needed it to fit. The others have their moments but seem uninteresting (though perhaps with so many pointless scenes, such as the ninja attack of the reporter which was a ....dream, apparently)

Also the kid himself, Jason to me was potentially the dumbest individual ive ever seen. Maybe its different over there in the US but any kid who decides its a fun idea to run off right after being told not to is either so young that a parent shouldnt let go of his hand or is just plain stupid (cant remember his age it was like 10 or something wasnt it?). Im sure a parent can feel sympathy for the kid but I was completely unsympathetic to it. Also, i found it really wierd that the dad survived and the kid died when it looks like the dad was between the car and jason.

[Illieas]

Here is a major spoiler warning, concerning the plot of Heavy Rain:
About halfway through the game, you play the kidnapped boy's father, & in order to save him from the Origami Killer, he/you have to cut off the tip of one of your fingers. You have 5 minutes. You assemble your tools (a knife, some disinfectant, some booze, a hot metal rod for cauterizing the wound, etc.), & then you slowly, painfully, methodically do the deed. It's not a cut-scene. You control the character, taking this father through every deliberate step in severing one of his fingers. It's Saw-style horror, but without the exploitative hype, & with a strong family-man motivation.

The reason that I mention that is to give context for the next spoiler, which are squicky images illustrating my point.


http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s228/zetakai/Finger1.jpg
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s228/zetakai/Finger2.jpg
I lost the tip of my middle finger in an accident at the hospital where my wife was giving birth to our son. I could have gotten it reattached, but I would've missed the birth, by being stuck in surgery (which might not have worked anyway). I gladly gave up my finger for my son, & I'd do it again in a heartbeat. I can completely relate to the character's desperate quest to save his son. I've been there, & I would do the same.

And yes, the character's reaction to the deed was entirely accurate. I think that the game designers must've taped me.


huh your moves were much better than mine i found a knife and just chopped. it is interesting they figured you can be very meticulous about how to work it. it is too bad i don't think i hit any repercussions from not disinfecting and cauterizing the wound. it should though or hit me with some kinda of infection.

I am liking the next phase as apparently from the hint of the next origami you have to choose between your kid and killing a person. not sure i would be willing to pull that off.

as for that picture wow. just wow... I hope to never have to make that kind of decision...

[toasty]

This game sounds very interesting, but... its a PS3 only game... and that really sucks. :smallfrown:

[king.com]

This game sounds very interesting, but... its a PS3 only game... and that really sucks. :smallfrown:

As with uncharted 2 i will probably never have a ps3 long enough to finish it.

[hanzo66]

While the story from what I've seen is an interesting murder-mystery, I get the feeling that for certain people a game run entirely on Quick-Time Events could get frustrating. Sure I heard the idea that it's meant to be such since the task themselves are difficult, but I can't help but feel that you'll end up getting a character killed just because you failed at mashing the R2 button at the right time or the SixAxis didn't detect your shaking well enough.

That and the Uncanny Valley bit, though that's more minor.

[Klose_the_Sith]

I too, kind of want Heavy Rain but console meh. I considered renting a PS3 to play it, but I just never want to use those controllers. Ever. So I won't play and that's just that. Such is life, I suppose.


Then again im someone who believes good Sci-Fi examines complex and mature ideas far better than drama so believe me how you will.

Oh, it does. Sci Fi is the best genre on the face of the planet for approaching and analysing issues (it isn't always done well, but that doesn't change things).

EDIT:
You are really going to not like the future.

You seem pretty certain of an uncertain thing, especially considering consumer backlash.

[Avilan the Grey]

This is partly why I hate Steam and everything it stands for.



See: Heavy Rain is mature in the sense that it's not a game about saving the world. It's not a game about tramping about the galaxy, killing the bad guys and stopping Eldritch Horrors from farming humanity for XP. It's not a game about being the hero who stops a secret government cover-up aiming to conquer and control all of mankind.

It's a game about saving your son. It's a game about protecting what is important to you. Not about protecting the world because it's your duty, but because it's your own flesh and blood. Those who understand that feeling, that desire and willingness to do anything it takes to save something so important to you: Those players are the ones Heavy Rain is trying to reach.

That is, in my opinion, the key story in Heavy Rain. What will you do for your son?

And I fail to see why that is more mature?
It still seems to be mostly "weird and twisted because we can", which might qualify as art, but it does not make a game more mature. Zeta Khai's spoiler makes my point, really.

[ZeroNumerous]

And I fail to see why that is more mature?
It still seems to be mostly "weird and twisted because we can", which might qualify as art, but it does not make a game more mature. Zeta Khai's spoiler makes my point, really.


Okay i may aswell respond to this and valadils post. At no point did i say it was bad I simply said it was not the grand level of maturity that games have never seen before. I believe there is more mature stories out there and simply because it is a real world setting does not make it more mature.

See, to people who don't have kids, spouses or have ever had anything resembling the responsibilities of a parent: Heavy Rain will be a mediocre murder mystery. As I said before, if you don't understand that feeling then you are not the type of person Heavy Rain is trying to reach. In fact, I would not suggest playing the game without that unless you like Quick Time Events. Rent a movie instead.


Saving the world can be a mature theme, particularly if you are forced to question whether the world itself needs to be or should even be saved.

Indeed it can. But that's not why Heavy Rain is mature. Heavy Rain reaches into that part of your brain which shelters your maternal/paternal instincts and yanks that out to be exposed to yourself and those who know how you played the game.

[Avilan the Grey]

See, to people who don't have kids, spouses or have ever had anything resembling the responsibilities of a parent: Heavy Rain will be a mediocre murder mystery. As I said before, if you don't understand that feeling then you are not the type of person Heavy Rain is trying to reach. In fact, I would not suggest playing the game without that unless you like Quick Time Events. Rent a movie instead.

Indeed it can. But that's not why Heavy Rain is mature. Heavy Rain reaches into that part of your brain which shelters your maternal/paternal instincts and yanks that out to be exposed to yourself and those who know how you played the game.

I am indeed not a parent, but I do question if this is actually realistic behavior of a parent anyway. How many news stories do you read about a single parent going through all this in person to save their child?
Besides, I question anyone that claims that "reaching into my brain to my instincts" make it more mature; I would claim the opposite. A major aspect of maturity is the ability to deny your instincts. A small child reacts almost entirely on instinct. An adult does not.

[ZeroNumerous]

I am indeed not a parent, but I do question if this is actually realistic behavior of a parent anyway. How many news stories do you read about a single parent going through all this in person to save their child

Wait, so you think people aren't knee-jerk reactionists when it comes to their children? Why do you think Jack Thompson even had a career? A man in the UK shot a doctor to 'save children'. People quite often, and ridiculously easily, will murder threats they perceive to their children. It's hardly unrealistic.


Besides, I question anyone that claims that "reaching into my brain to my instincts" make it more mature; I would claim the opposite. A major aspect of maturity is the ability to deny your instincts. A small child reacts almost entirely on instinct. An adult does not.

Actually that's quite wrong. The vast majority of normal adults whom function appropriately in society are following their instincts: To procreate and assure the passage of their genes into the future. Your emotions, your ability to judge your environment based on prior encounters, your perception of your world and the like are all based on instincts reinforced from your past experience. Humanity, as a whole, are a writhing mass of instincts and hormonal drives which are loosely controlled by our self-conscious.

To put it plainly: Reason is to your instincts as a midget is to a rhinoceros rodeo.

[Avilan the Grey]

Wait, so you think people aren't knee-jerk reactionists when it comes to their children? Why do you think Jack Thompson even had a career? A man in the UK shot a doctor to 'save children'. People quite often, and ridiculously easily, will murder threats they perceive to their children. It's hardly unrealistic.

Actually that's quite wrong. The vast majority of normal adults whom function appropriately in society are following their instincts: To procreate and assure the passage of their genes into the future. Your emotions, your ability to judge your environment based on prior encounters, your perception of your world and the like are all based on instincts reinforced from your past experience. Humanity, as a whole, are a writhing mass of instincts and hormonal drives which are loosely controlled by our self-conscious.

To put it plainly: Reason is to your instincts as a midget is to a rhinoceros rodeo.

Kneejerk reactions, yes.
I was going to ask "Jack who?" but then I googled. Yes, I know that type of person, but that is not what we discuss here. Jack Thompson is a loon of a specific species, mostly common in the US with a few other breeding grounds like Australia and Germany.
Anyway, his form of child protection is of a totally different kind. What I am saying is that what I take from news and statistics is that any reaction other than sitting half-dazed at home crying after reporting whatever to the police is a very rare reaction.

As for adults and instincts:
Yes I know. My point is that appealing to our instincts is not what makes a game mature. Quite the opposite, because of the facts you just posted.

[TricksyAndFalse]

I think I'm about 60% of the way through the game. I'm avoiding the spoilers above in case they are for the parts of the game I haven't seen yet.

I just finished the Trial of the Lizard, where Ethan cut off his finger. I have two trials to go, plus whatever other chapters the other characters go through.

I'll sit on the fence re: maturity in Heavy Rain. There are some mature subjects that are handled maturely. But at least two chapters so far have seemed silly enough to come from a Saw movie.

I've now been through a contrived death trap in the vacant power plant (crawling through shards of broken glass, and doing the limbo under electrified cables), and cut off my own finger ala Cary Ewes' character in the first Saw. I even had the option of using a saw to do it.

I'm disappointed with what I've seen of the gender roles so far in the game. I'm hoping the later half of the game reverses this.

I've played Madison's first three chapters, and they involve her having a rape nightmare, and nursing Ethan back to health after his first two trials. Her first chapter seems gratuitous--sure, it explains her insomnia and why she's at the Crosroads Motel trying to sleep rather than at home, but we could have skipped this. It seems so far that her insomnia is just a convenient excuse to have a woman hanging around Ethan's motel room to fix him up between trials. Is her only connection to the events in this game that she plays nurse for Ethan? I really hope not.

[ZeroNumerous]

Anyway, his form of child protection is of a totally different kind. What I am saying is that what I take from news and statistics is that any reaction other than sitting half-dazed at home crying after reporting whatever to the police is a very rare reaction.

That's mainly because most parents have no other recourse. Heavy Rain has the Origami Killer give you another recourse, and like any parent Ethan leaps on the chance to save his son.


As for adults and instincts:
Yes I know. My point is that appealing to our instincts is not what makes a game mature. Quite the opposite, because of the facts you just posted.

Children lack most of those instincts though. Most children only strive to protect themselves, meet their own needs and care little to nothing about the world around them. It's not until the onset of adulthood that the instinctual desire to protect and procreate takes root. You can say appealing to your instincts does not make the game mature, and you would be right if the game appealed to your self-serving instincts. However, the game does not and appeals to a radically opposed outlook.

[Illieas]

Alright this is a post will have tons of spoilers relating to the story overall so forewarning to all.


i found these two articles that cover plot holes the first covers 15 plotholes while the second link counters those 15.

http://www.gamesradar.com/f/heavy-rains-big-plot-holes/a-20100224105436979020

http://www.strengthgamer.com/Heavy_Rain_Plot_Holes.html

I agree with a few of the plot holes and disagree with few in they are not actual plot holes but things that are just things that bugs you.

1. i agree isn't a plot hole so much as it is bad writing in that it need to establish knowing shelby but it isn't too much a stretch that he would known by a reporter

2. i agree with the second link as they are parts of the trails things highly likely hidden as the parents would want to save their child

3. i can't say the 3rd one as it didn't happen in my run through as ethan always escaped.

4. 4th is more of suspension of belief. I don't believe the first few encounter with gun drawn would be going. as it would be more of bring a man in for questioning. but since he spent the rest of time running away i can see the problem.

5. i agree with the first link as the first time it happened was when he was at home. on top of a stairway without a window to see that he had blacked out. then again we don't know what these entail can he move talk and walk and interact with objects when he is in the black outstate.

6. 6th is game play mechanic it is necessary to make that portion quicker as it would cause a slow pace in game which time is against you is counter to the feel like you need to save the universe but you spending time to save someone's kitten while you go at your leisure pace

7. the problem i find is you literally go standing into a fire. water won't protect your face or your lungs from being burned. standing tall for the several minutes in the fire would also mean you would probably fall unconscious from the smoke inhalation. the fridge was decent in the point was to use it as blast shield. and then hope that the explosion either opened a door or hole to escape. it just that in real circumstances she would be either stuck at the window screaming for help or dead.

8. i think he used the drug to use ARI. then agin i may be wrong which case yeah such a debilitating drug habit should have got him fired a while ago.

9. eh more times than not in movies people get into a fight which gun go way across the room. it is kinda stupid but that how you make fight scenes more dramatic.

10. i didn't have those action happen to me. but i just had me fall unconscious and him trying to run me through a trash compactor. which destroys most of the evidence. i thought he wasn't terrible at it.

11. is just suspension of belief the fact that guy can place glass shards in a tunnel and set up a electrical net that wouldn't be immediately shut down by the local electric company or having the components melt down after so much arc lighting passing back and forth. really kills the realism of the game.

12. I kinda agree with the second link in that charcters can still act stupid. he isn't in the greast states of mind.

13. number 13 is major which link 2 is stupid to dismiss as a time issue. shelby the killer that killed his mom and went through the trouble of destroying evidence so that he wouldn't get caught and go to jail. He suddenly goes out and kills 12 guards with a gun. It makes no sense. he would be put in jail for the even bigger crime of 12 counts of murder. it isn't about time its about mentality. for a person who is being extremely careful suddenly becomes so reckless of a bigger crime just character dissonance.

14. is easy to explain he took kickbacks from criminals to keep them safe.

15. this was bad. i agree it would just bad presentation to try to get you to not believe it is shelby. and the cop would not let you go so very easily as you were the only ones there and if you broke out ari it would confirm it as a person from the window would have different print and wet shoes prints on the ground.

i have somethings that also bug me.
1. I had ethan kill the drug dealer in his house. in this house he touches 20 to 30 objects in their shoot out. he then goes and hurls on the ground. some how he isn't convicted and thrown in jail for that instead he placed as hero and has new apartment with madison.

2. the kid should have died from hypothermia in about a day or two

so with this walls of text do you agree or disagree with arguments of plot problems.

other than these problems i find that the story is pretty interesting and the shelby being the killer was rather unexpected. I liked this game but with a slightly better story would have been epic.

[TricksyAndFalse]

I'm disappointed with what I've seen of the gender roles so far in the game. I'm hoping the later half of the game reverses this.

I've finished the game, and I'm pretty pleased. They did indeed give Madison a bigger role in the story and a solid reason for getting involved than her first couple of chapters showed. I was irritated that we don't even know her name or what her "work" is that she alludes to in her first chapter. But, her profession and motivations are part of a big reveal later, so I'll forgive them for making me wait.

On the 15 plot holes from GamesRadar linked above:


1) Her reaction seems to imply she recognizes the name, but I'm not ready to call this a plot hole.

2) We only see Scott collect three clues from parents. Lauren and Hassan take a lot of convicing to surrender their clues (and I now wonder if the gunman in Hassan's store is a set-up to convince Hassan to part with the shoebox). They were likely equally tight-lipped when talking to the police. Susan's clue is just a non-working cellphone that she may have not even found until after the police interviewed her. I don't see this as a plot hole at all.

3) I was waiting for there to be fall-out from this, but never saw any. Even though I thought to turn the cameras off, Norman was still the last man in the room with Ethan, but we never see him lie about how Ethan got away, or confess. I'll agree that this one is a plot hole.

4) Not a plot hole. The news reports manhunts for suspects who are later found not guilty due to insufficient evidence all the time. You may remember OJ Simpson?

5) Absolutely a plot hole. The players need some explantion for why Ethan keeps waking up with origamis in his hand.

6) When I played through, Norman also found the gun used to shoot Paco lying on the floor. That gun had gone missing from a police evidence locker a few years ago, corroborating Norman's hunch that the killer is a cop or former cop. This is not a plot hole if you find and analyze the evidence.

7) I didn't bother hiding in the fridge. I escaped out of the kitchen window I had earlier scoped out from the hall window prior to breaking in.

8) I agree with the counterpoint from StrengthGamer. His superiors will probably turn a blind-eye if he gets results, up until he causes an embarrasment. Happens all the time in real life. Not a plot hole.

9) When I played through, Scott is shown having clearly run out of bullets when he chases Madison up the ladder. This is why he doesn't shoot her.

SWAT teams shoot to kill, not to incapacitate. If you fail or surrender (I surrendered rather than jump off the roof), Ethan gets arrested, not shot to death. They aren't firing because they can take him alive.

And I agree with StrengthGamer's retort. This is not a description of a plot hole.

10) We have no idea how long that officer has been missing. Not necessarily a plot hole.

11) I agree with StrengthGamer, not necessarily a plot hole (though, I was thinking what an absolute tedious job it would be to fill those tunnels with glass shards when I was playing through. I couldn't take the tedium, myself. I'd make a bad death-trap-style serial killer)

12) Agree with StrengthGamer. Ethan is not in his right mind. Not a plot hole.

13) I did poorly in this chapter, and Scott only shot a few guards before running away. Maybe Mr. Kramer was planning retaliation for later, but in my play-through, Scott dies later that night at Norman's hands, so Kramer's revenge is moot. I re-played the final chapter, and Lauren shoots and kills Scott after I let him get away. Again, Kramer's plans for retaliation are moot.

Illieas asks why Scott did this at all, and I believe it's because Mr. Kramer earlier locked him and Lauren in a car and tossed that car into a lake (This event happened to me, anyway). Once Mr. Kramer found out that Scott was still alive, he'd try to kill him again. Scott had to end things between them.

14) I agree with Illieas. Scott is clearly getting kick-backs from Paco, and maybe from others as well. I also agree with StrengthGamer, we don't know the size of his pension, but he made lieutentant before retiring, so probably enough to afford a nicer apartment than he has. Not a plot hole.

15) I agree with StrengthGamer, Scott wants to shoo Lauren out quickly, so he calls the cops. Lauren very reasonably asks why they can't just explain things to the cops, and Scott concocts some excuse about being tied up for hours. But, if he does visit the station (as he did in my playthough--I forgot the second telephone), it's clear he has friends on the force to clear things up for him. His excuse seemed really lame to me, and made more sense in light of his later flashback, not less sense.


On Illieas's additional points:


1) I did the same thing, and this bugged me too--that Ethan never faces any external repercussions from this decision.

2) I hadn't thought about it, but yeah, Shaun is in the water for at least 3 days (assuming he gets locked in the well just prior to Ethan's first viewing of the video feed on the cell phone).