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Mystic Muse
2010-03-01, 03:54 AM
I've heard tripping builds being mentioned before that were supposed to be really good but I don't see why. I looked at the mechanics for tripping and all it does is make your opponent prone. While this is desirable I still don't see why it's all that.

Am I missing something?

Ravens_cry
2010-03-01, 04:13 AM
Action economy and battle field control. Get knocked down, and you have to use actions to get up. These actions provoke attacks of opportunity, which can knock you back down on your species buttock equivalent again. No, you're not dead. But you're not helping your comrades, so you might as well be dead.

sonofzeal
2010-03-01, 04:13 AM
- It's an ability score check, so it's really hard to defend against for humanoids at least.

- Prone enemies take a -4 to AC from melee attacks

- Prone enemies provoke an AoO from everyone nearby when they stand up.

- You can trip on an AoO, and it cancels whatever else the enemy was doing.

- Improved Trip lets you do all that and get your normal attack in.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-01, 04:15 AM
Action economy and battle field control. Get knocked down, and you have to use actions to get up. These actions provoke attacks of opportunity, which can knock you back down on your species buttock equivalent again. No, you're not dead. But you're not helping your comrades, so you might as well be dead.

Actually, the AoO happens before you get up, so you can't use it to trip again. However, if they try to do anything else that provokes, such as move, you can.

Pluto
2010-03-01, 04:16 AM
+ If you have longer reach than the other guy and you trip him, you can keep him from hitting you with his sword.

And getting hit with swords is not a good thing.

Ravens_cry
2010-03-01, 04:18 AM
Actually, the AoO happens before you get up, so you can't use it to trip again. However, if they try to do anything else that provokes, such as move, you can.
Which is what makes the oh so goofy spiked chain so good. They get up, move in, womp.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-01, 04:23 AM
Which is what makes the oh so goofy spiked chain so good. They get up, move in, womp.

And then they fall in the square they started in... because the AoO happens before the move.

However, they've spent the move, so they need another to get up.

With good reach, it's nasty.

A good Psywar can get polymorphed into a large biped creature, then expansion to gargantuan, and have a 40 foot or so reach with a spiked chain, and a massive modifier from strength.

It can get nastier than that, I've gotten characters designed with 70 and 80 feet of reach.

Koury
2010-03-01, 04:25 AM
And then they fall in the square they started in... because the AoO happens before the move.

However, they've spent the move, so they need another to get up.

Wouldn't they just 5 ft in? :smallconfused:

Not arguing the huge reach thing, of course, just the normal 10 ft reach. Of course, by that time they have been delayed sufficently anyway. It's just not an endless loop (without Thicket of Blades, of course)

Ravens_cry
2010-03-01, 04:27 AM
Wouldn't they just 5 ft in? :smallconfused:

Not arguing the huge reach thing, of course, just the normal 10 ft reach. Of course, by that time they have been delayed sufficently anyway. It's just not an endless loop (without Thicket of Blades, of course)
Once you've taken a move action, such as getting up, I don't think you can simply take a five foot step that round. Can you?

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-01, 04:30 AM
Wouldn't they just 5 ft in? :smallconfused:

Not arguing the huge reach thing, of course, just the normal 10 ft reach. Of course, by that time they have been delayed sufficently anyway. It's just not an endless loop (without Thicket of Blades, of course)

Not if you have 20 feet of reach, or are in difficult terrain (where 5 foot steps are not allowed).

15 feet of reach is the sweet spot. Then you can 5 foot step to 15 feet away, and they have to move to reach you.

Mystic Muse
2010-03-01, 04:30 AM
-
- Improved Trip lets you do all that and get your normal attack in.

I did not notice this. Thanks.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-01, 04:32 AM
Once you've taken a move action, such as getting up, I don't think you can simply take a five foot step that round. Can you?

You can. Standing up is not movement. It's a move action. Movement is the only action that prevents a 5 foot step.

Killer Angel
2010-03-01, 04:35 AM
Once you've taken a move action, such as getting up, I don't think you can simply take a five foot step that round. Can you?

Yes.
"You can move 5 feet in any round when you donít perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You canít take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you canít take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#take5FootStep)."

To stand up, is a move equivalent action, and you don't move any distance doing it.

Edit: ah, the ninjas...

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-01, 04:41 AM
Yes.
"You can move 5 feet in any round when you donít perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You canít take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you canít take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#take5FootStep)."

To stand up, is a move equivalent action, and you don't move any distance doing it.

Edit: ah, the ninjas...

There's no such thing as a "move-equivalent" action anymore. That's a 3.0 term that was removed. Now there's move actions, one of which is actually moving.

Killer Angel
2010-03-01, 04:52 AM
There's no such thing as a "move-equivalent" action anymore. That's a 3.0 term that was removed. Now there's move actions, one of which is actually moving.

Ah, yes, you're right. Sometimes the old memories tend to remain attached... :smallredface:

Edit: BTW, Kyuubi, Tripping is good, but very often you'll be not able to use it, thanks to enemies' abilities.

Mystic Muse
2010-03-01, 04:54 AM
So is tripping itself an attack or just an attempt to make a person prone? I can't really tell.

Temotei
2010-03-01, 04:56 AM
So is tripping itself an attack or just an attempt to make a person prone? I can't really tell.

It's an attack.


You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack.

Mystic Muse
2010-03-01, 04:58 AM
It's an attack.

you can also use a weapon.

Temotei
2010-03-01, 04:59 AM
you can also use a weapon.

Only if it's a tripping weapon. If you're using a trip-focused build, it's likely you have one, but you never know.

Otherwise, it's an unarmed touch attack.

Mystic Muse
2010-03-01, 05:07 AM
Only if it's a tripping weapon. If you're using a trip-focused build, it's likely you have one, but you never know.

Otherwise, it's an unarmed touch attack.

Are there specific qualifiers for tripping weapons?

Aharon
2010-03-01, 05:07 AM
Is there any way to make weapons trip weapons with an enchantment or a spell or something?

I will trip you... with my dagger! :smallbiggrin:

sonofzeal
2010-03-01, 05:07 AM
Are there specific qualifiers for tripping weapons?
Yes. The weapon must say "you can trip with this weapon" in the description. Browse around in the PHB weapons section and you'll quickly see what I mean.

Temotei
2010-03-01, 05:09 AM
Are there specific qualifiers for tripping weapons?

Other than specific wording saying "this is a trip weapon," I don't think so. :smallsmile:

I suppose if you homebrewed a weapon though, you could come up with a reason. Like...stabbing them in the leg with a long weapon, then having it collapse and twist or something.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-01, 05:10 AM
The weapon description will list that you can make trip attacks with it.

Mystic Muse
2010-03-01, 05:14 AM
Okay. Well I planned on using a Scythe anyway so that will work out well.

I hear there are potions of enlargement but I can't find them in The SRD. Are they in the MIC or something else?

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-01, 05:15 AM
Okay. Well I planned on using a Scythe anyway so that will work out well.

I hear there are potions of enlargement but I can't find them in The SRD. Are they in the MIC or something else?

Check again, and look for "Enlarge Person". They're listed at 250gp, in the SRD.

Power Stones of Psionic Expansion are generally more effective.

Defiant
2010-03-01, 05:22 AM
Are there any ways to increase reach with a weapon? I want to make my spiked chain 10ft reach a 15ft reach without enlarging myself: something permanent added in to the weapon (or a feat on myself).

Temotei
2010-03-01, 05:24 AM
Are there any ways to increase reach with a weapon? I want to make my spiked chain 10ft reach a 15ft reach without enlarging myself: something permanent added in to the weapon (or a feat on myself).

There's a maneuver that allows it.

Bayar
2010-03-01, 05:38 AM
Aberrant blood and inhuman reach for a +5 reach to everything.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-01, 05:42 AM
Or Willing Deformity and Deformity: Tall.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-01, 06:03 AM
There's a maneuver that allows it.

Actually, a stance, Iron Heart: Dancing Blade Form.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-01, 06:05 AM
Actually, a stance, Iron Heart: Dancing Blade Form.

I believe that only increases reach on your turn. won't help much for tripping.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-01, 06:21 AM
Aberrant Blood/Inhuman Reach and Willing Deformity/Deformity: Tall stack IIRC, so you can get 15ft reach there. Not sure how that works with reach weapons though.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-01, 06:23 AM
Aberrant Blood/Inhuman Reach and Willing Deformity/Deformity: Tall stack IIRC, so you can get 15ft reach there. Not sure how that works with reach weapons though.

Reach weapons double your base reach. So that makes it 30 feet.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-01, 07:11 AM
Reach weapons double your base reach. So that makes it 30 feet.

Nice. You can match the Tarrasque's reach.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-01, 07:15 AM
Nice. You can match the Tarrasque's reach.

Enlarge makes it 40. Expansion makes it 50. Giant Size makes it about 80.

Person_Man
2010-03-01, 10:11 AM
From the melee combo thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026):

Combat Reflexes + Combat Exp + Improved Trip + Knock-Down (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Knock-Down):


Pro: Enemy can either sit there and attack with a -4 penalty, crawl, or stand up and provoke an AoO if you threaten them.
Con: Size matters, so big/strong enemies will have an advantage. Pointless against most enemies with ranged attacks and/or spells. Some enemies can't be tripped, or can stand up without provoking.
Level of Effort: 4ish feats.
Best used against: Groups of weak enemies, or to create a choke point in a dungeon.
Commentary: Probably the most common form of melee lock down. Even though it's not particularly effective against many enemies, some DMs really hate this combo and think that it's unbalanced. If yours does, pick something else.


It's a decent combo, but it's ineffective against many enemies. Standstill requires a lower feat investment and has a superior chance of success, but deals no damage. Knockback also has a superior chance of success and can also Trip two enemies if you have Shock Trooper, but requires a higher investment and moves the enemy away from you (potentially a good or bad thing, depending on the situation). Daze effects do a better job of incapacitating the enemy but allow a Saving Throw. If your enemy is using a weapon, spell component pouch, or holy symbol, you can just Sunder it to neuter him, and doing so requires no investment except for an adamantine reach weapon. There are many combos, and which one(s) you should use depends heavily on the encounter and your build.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-01, 10:15 AM
On the bright side, building a trip build with an adamantine weapon will also cover you for sundering.

Killer Angel
2010-03-01, 10:25 AM
Commentary: Probably the most common form of melee lock down. Even though it's not particularly effective against many enemies, some DMs really hate this combo and think that it's unbalanced. If yours does, pick something else.



It's worse, when your DM don't object, then, mysteriously, after one month of playing, suddenly all the (few) trippable enemies, begin to win always the contest... :smallsigh:

JeenLeen
2010-03-01, 10:33 AM
If the enemy has a decent Tumble, can't Tumble to used to get up from prone without an AoO? They can also tumble instead of moving, which I would think would get past a lot of tripping methods.

Of course, if Trip cheese is countered only by Tumble cheese, that isn't saying Trip is ineffective.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-01, 10:36 AM
If the enemy has a decent Tumble, can't Tumble to used to get up from prone without an AoO? They can also tumble instead of moving, which I would think would get past a lot of tripping methods.

Of course, if Trip cheese is countered only by Tumble cheese, that isn't saying Trip is ineffective.

Tumble will let you get up as a free action. It won't bypass the AoO. It will allow you to move through, however, barring, again, thicket of blades.

JeenLeen
2010-03-01, 10:37 AM
Tumble will let you get up as a free action. It won't bypass the AoO. It will allow you to move through, however, barring, again, thicket of blades.

Ah; I thought if it was a free action, by merit of being a free action it bypassed AoO, like how a spell cast as an immediate action or swift/quickened action doesn't get AoO.

Person_Man
2010-03-01, 10:53 AM
If the enemy has a decent Tumble, can't Tumble to used to get up from prone without an AoO? They can also tumble instead of moving, which I would think would get past a lot of tripping methods.

Of course, if Trip cheese is countered only by Tumble cheese, that isn't saying Trip is ineffective.

Yes, although the DM might rule that it is "Accelerated Tumbling" since there is no such thing as "one-half speed" for standing up.

For the sake of completeness, here is a list of things that resist/deter Trip or counter it entirely:

Etherealness
Ooze
A few Aberrations
Sufficiently big Size/Str
Sufficient reach
Stability
Numerous feats which add to your ability to resist Trip
Certain feats/abilities (Thief Acrobat, Combat Acrobat)
Tumble Skill
Various Magic/Psionics
Ranged builds
Other battlefield control combos


I've probably forgotten several things.

Cyrion
2010-03-01, 10:54 AM
Okay. Well I planned on using a Scythe anyway so that will work out well.

I hear there are potions of enlargement but I can't find them in The SRD. Are they in the MIC or something else?

You may be thinking about the spell Enlarge Weapon. It's not in the SRD because it's from Complete Scoundrel. The effect of the spell is to make the weapon larger without incurring size penalties for the user. Its intent is to increase the damage of the weapon- your dwarven waraxe goes from doing 1d10 to 2d8 for example. I don't recall that the spell description says anything specific for or against increasing the reach for a tripping weapon. By RAW, I suppose, since it doesn't say the reach is affected, it must not be. Check with your DM if you think your mileage may differ.

Telonius
2010-03-01, 11:24 AM
Not if you have 20 feet of reach, or are in difficult terrain (where 5 foot steps are not allowed).

15 feet of reach is the sweet spot. Then you can 5 foot step to 15 feet away, and they have to move to reach you.

Hm, never noticed this particular combination before. Consider a level 3 Knight with Bulwark of Defense. Prone is not flatfooted, so Knight is still allowed to hit him. Everything in his threatened range is considered difficult terrain for the enemy, so no 5-foot steps at all. :smallamused:

Xenogears
2010-03-01, 11:31 AM
Enlarge makes it 40. Expansion makes it 50. Giant Size makes it about 80.

Long Arm graft from Fiend folio increases base reach by 5ft for only 5k IIRC. Hmmm. Only at 90ft after that. We need one more 5ft increase to hit 100ft away...

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-01, 11:38 AM
I believe that only increases reach on your turn. won't help much for tripping.

Caught, you are right. But does not come in my mind another maneuver increasing reach, so I guess that this is the one intended above.

faceroll
2010-03-01, 11:52 AM
If you are using knockdown, are you still making unarmed touch attacks to trip? Because the feat seems to imply that you hit someone so hard they fall over.

lsfreak
2010-03-01, 12:01 PM
Comment on Potions of Enlarge Person: The price is a holdover from 3.0, where higher caster levels made you grow bigger, and so the default Enlrage Person potions was at max caster level. Using the potion rules, they should be 50gp each, not 250gp. See if your DM is willing to follow potion-making rules rather than the table.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-01, 12:03 PM
On the bright side, building a trip build with an adamantine weapon will also cover you for sundering.

You mean Disarming. Sundering is vastly inferior to Disarming if the enemy isn't using a Natural Weapon. both suck if the enemy is all ready unarmed though.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-01, 12:34 PM
- It's an ability score check, so it's really hard to defend against for humanoids at least.
Not completely. See page 97 of Complete Adventurer to see how you can use a Balance check to Resist Trip. Since Balance ranks can be increased faster than trip modifier, once a Rogue or Scout gets to middling level they're pretty much untrippable.

Person_Man
2010-03-01, 12:40 PM
If you are using knockdown, are you still making unarmed touch attacks to trip? Because the feat seems to imply that you hit someone so hard they fall over.

No. This is explained in the errata (and I think the FAQ as well).

Normal Trip: Make a touch attack with an unarmed strike or trip weapon (Guisarm, Spiked Chain, bolas, etc). Assuming your target threatens you, this provokes an attack of opportunity from your target if it is an unarmed strike. Then you make a Str check, opposed by your target's Str or Dex check (using the higher modifier), which is also modified by Size and a wide variety of other potential modifiers. If you win this check, your target is knocked Prone. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Str check opposed by your Str or Dex check to try to trip you. If you are wielding a Trip weapon, you can drop the weapon to avoid being knocked tripped in this way.

Improved Trip: Make a touch attack with an unarmed strike or trip weapon (Guisarm, Spiked Chain, bolas, etc). Then you make a Str check, opposed by your target's Str or Dex check (using the higher modifier), which is also modified by Size and a wide variety of other potential modifiers. If you win this check, your target is knocked Prone. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Str check opposed by your Str or Dex check to try to trip you. If you are wielding a Trip weapon, you can drop the weapon to avoid being knocked tripped in this way. Then you may make a melee attack against your now Prone enemy (ie, you get a +4 to hit him).

Knock-Down: Make a normal melee attack. If you deal 10 or more points of damage, then you may make a Str check, opposed by your target's Str or Dex check (using the higher modifier), which is also modified by Size and a wide variety of other potential modifiers. If you win this check, your target is knocked Prone. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Str check opposed by your Str or Dex check to try to trip you. If you are wielding a Trip weapon, you can drop the weapon to avoid being knocked tripped in this way.

Note that there is no touch attack or "follow-up" attack from Knock-Down. You hit enemy, make an opposed check, and they're knocked Prone if you succeed. Mathmatically you have a higher chance of success this way, since there is one less roll that you could potentially miss on. Knock-Down also does not require a Trip weapon to make Trip attacks, although it's generally a good idea to use one anyway to avoid the "counter Trip" attempt when if you fail.

faceroll
2010-03-01, 12:43 PM
Thanks for the thorough explanation.

Defiant
2010-03-01, 01:02 PM
Aberrant blood and inhuman reach for a +5 reach to everything.

Where can I find these things?

herrhauptmann
2010-03-01, 01:02 PM
Knock-Down: Make a normal melee attack. If you deal 10 or more points of damage, then you may make a Str check, opposed by your target's Str or Dex check (using the higher modifier), which is also modified by Size and a wide variety of other potential modifiers. If you win this check, your target is knocked Prone. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Str check opposed by your Str or Dex check to try to trip you. If you are wielding a Trip weapon, you can drop the weapon to avoid being knocked tripped in this way.

Note that there is no touch attack or "follow-up" attack from Knock-Down. You hit enemy, make an opposed check, and they're knocked Prone if you succeed. Mathmatically you have a higher chance of success this way, since there is one less roll that you could potentially miss on. Knock-Down also does not require a Trip weapon to make Trip attacks, although it's generally a good idea to use one anyway to avoid the "counter Trip" attempt when if you fail.

Could have sworn that regardless of weapon type, you could had the choice of dropping it, or falling over (unless you had it locked to your gauntlets).

Also, are you sure the knockdown route is more effective/less prone to failure? In either case, trip or knockdown, you are making a strength check opposed by a strength or balance check, so that part is the same.
But when using imp trip, your opponent gets a -4 to AC because he's already on the ground.
Meanwhile, with knockdown, you have to first hit them to deal damage (vs a higher AC), then do enough damage to initiate the knockdown. Granted, I don't expect someone with a damage range of 6-12 to be using knockdown. But there's other things that can negatively effect your chance of getting knockdown. Enemy has DR/alignment, DR/bludgeoning, DR/weapon material. Many of which can occur among low level enemies which are not automatically immune/resistant to tripping.

edit:

Where can I find these things?

Lords of madness I believe.

Greenish
2010-03-01, 01:10 PM
Could have sworn that regardless of weapon type, you could had the choice of dropping it, or falling over (unless you had it locked to your gauntlets).You can only drop the weapon if you're tripping with it. If your weapon is not tripping weapon, you're not tripping with it.

Draz74
2010-03-01, 02:14 PM
Yes, although the DM might rule that it is "Accelerated Tumbling" since there is no such thing as "one-half speed" for standing up.
I don't think I've ever seen rules for standing up safely as a Tumble check. AFAIK, doing this requires a Skill Trick (Back On Your Feet or Nimble Stand), or a Thief-Acrobat class feature. (Or my personal favorite, the dirt-cheap Boots of Agile Leaping.)


For the sake of completeness, here is a list of things that resist/deter Trip or counter it entirely:

Etherealness
Ooze
A few Aberrations
Sufficiently big Size/Str
Sufficient reach
Stability
Numerous feats which add to your ability to resist Trip
Certain feats/abilities (Thief Acrobat, Combat Acrobat)
Tumble Skill
Various Magic/Psionics
Ranged builds
Other battlefield control combos


I've probably forgotten several things.

Steadfast Boots (another dirt-cheap magic item, which every character who wields a two-handed weapon should buy)
the big one: non-winged Flight



Caught, you are right. But does not come in my mind another maneuver increasing reach, so I guess that this is the one intended above.

There's at least one more maneuver that increases reach (I forget the name, but it's Desert Wind, Level 2 Boost). But again, it only works on your turn. Tome of Battle in general was careful not to make battlefield-control melee get too much of a boost compared with other melee styles.

Again, though, if you're looking for ways besides size increases to increase your reach, Magic Item Compendium is your friend. Greatreach Bracers are the best, but Reach Gauntlets are worth looking at too.


You mean Disarming. Sundering is vastly inferior to Disarming if the enemy isn't using a Natural Weapon. both suck if the enemy is all ready unarmed though.

Sundering has its place. Mostly where spell component pouches or holy symbols are involved.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-01, 02:16 PM
Where can I find these things?
The online Feat Index (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats) is a useful resource to bookmark.

ericgrau
2010-03-01, 02:20 PM
Also of note, it's only a couple -4's. Very significant, to be sure, but not life ending. Often tripping is only good because people think they need to get up only to be tripped again. Doing nothing? That is life ending. Nonono, fight, wait till the tripper is dead, then get up. Heck, trip the tripper back. Even at a -4 it's only a touch attack. Or even if you or the monster focused entirely on non-reach melee (and melee is unusual for someone who isn't also big and/or high strength), someone in the party can use one of the 2 dozen options suggested to take out the tripper.

Doug Lampert
2010-03-01, 02:31 PM
Comment on Potions of Enlarge Person: The price is a holdover from 3.0, where higher caster levels made you grow bigger, and so the default Enlrage Person potions was at max caster level. Using the potion rules, they should be 50gp each, not 250gp. See if your DM is willing to follow potion-making rules rather than the table.

The rules for pricing potions (and that say you can make one for ANY spell you know of 3rd level or below using those rules) are in the feat description in the PHB. This is only true for scrolls, potions, and wands, for other items you need the DMG/and or DM permission, but not for those three types.

And the primary sources discussion indicates that the PHB takes precedence over the DMG. Thus the DMG price is an error or for a level 5 potion because someone REALLY wanted that duration or better dispell check or something. But if your wizard is the one making them he can make them for 25 GP and 2 XP strictly RAW.

faceroll
2010-03-01, 02:42 PM
The rules for pricing potions (and that say you can make one for ANY spell you know of 3rd level or below using those rules) are in the feat description in the PHB. This is only true for scrolls, potions, and wands, for other items you need the DMG/and or DM permission, but not for those three types.

And the primary sources discussion indicates that the PHB takes precedence over the DMG. Thus the DMG price is an error or for a level 5 potion because someone REALLY wanted that duration or better dispell check or something. But if your wizard is the one making them he can make them for 25 GP and 2 XP strictly RAW.

lsfreak is saying the price is due to a copypasta error from an earlier edition, where Enlarge Person was simply enlarge, and it gave you +1 str per two caster levels (up to caster level 5).

Gnaeus
2010-03-01, 02:43 PM
Just wanted to point out that the default AOE chain tripper tends to have other useful tactics, and the same stuff that makes him a good AOE tripper (Spiked chain, large size, high STR) help him on his secondary uses also.

For example, if you add Mage Slayer, it is close to the best a muggle can do to counter enemy casters. He can't cast defensively while within your reach. Your reach is so big he can't 5 foot step out of it. He can evade it with quickened spells, but an unprepaired caster is in trouble.

It is a good build for dropping mooks scattered across the battlefield, even if said mooks are untrippable.

With a 2 handed weapon (spiked chain) large size and high strength it is even a pretty effective damage dealer. Not ubercharger level perhaps, but better than a sword and board or twfer is likely to be.

So ultimately, the base trip build is particularly good at tripping, but has a lot of other good combat uses.

Flickerdart
2010-03-01, 02:43 PM
Also of note, it's only a couple -4's. Very significant, to be sure, but not life ending. Often tripping is only good because people think they need to get up only to be tripped again. Doing nothing? That is life ending. Nonono, fight, wait till the tripper is dead, then get up. Heck, trip the tripper back. Even at a -4 it's only a touch attack. Or even if you or the monster focused entirely on non-reach melee (and melee is unusual for someone who isn't also big and/or high strength), someone in the party can use one of the 2 dozen options suggested to take out the tripper.
Haha, now I'm imagining a fight with all combatants lying down.

Doug Lampert
2010-03-01, 02:43 PM
lsfreak is saying the price is due to a copypasta error from an earlier edition, where Enlarge Person was simply enlarge, and it gave you +1 str per two caster levels (up to caster level 5).

I agree that that's what happened, but it doesn't require a GM ruling to fix because the rules for pricing potions are in a source that takes precedence over the DMG.

Person_Man
2010-03-01, 03:09 PM
Also, are you sure the knockdown route is more effective/less prone to failure?

It is possible that the +4 bonus To-Hit from targeting a Prone enemy could statistically outweigh the benefit of not making a Touch Attack. But I don't think it applies to the vast majority of attacks that you will make:

Your enemy could have a high Touch AC (anything with high Dex, small Size, Deflection bonuses, etc).
Your enemy could have a Miss Chance (which you'd essentially have to bypass twice to hit your enemy once).
Your To-Hit modifier might not be that great, especially if you're using Power Attack without Shock Trooper. Remember, the To-Hit penalty applies to all attack rolls.
A Touch Attack is going to miss at least 5% of the time (when you roll a natural 1). Also, many DM's have "critical fumble" house rule. For example, every time you roll a natural 1, you lose the rest of your attacks for that turn, or you drop your weapon. I think that those rules are an abominable and pointless nerf - but if your DM uses them, then having more attack rolls per round increases the probability that you will screw up.


Using Knock-Down also speeds up game play. I'm convinced that half the reason some DMs hate Trip builds is because they hate the hassle.

As an aside, when I want to play a Trip build (which is rare, because it gets boring), I use Knockback + Shocktrooper with one or more forms of Pounce/Free Movement (usually some riff on Flaming Homer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4108954&postcount=22)). It's more effective at knocking enemies Prone and controlling their movement then Improved Trip.

Glimbur
2010-03-01, 04:03 PM
Heck, trip the tripper back.

Most bonuses to trip also help you avoid being tripped. You might be better off trying to Grapple... which is a whole different kettle of fish. Attacking from prone isn't life-ending, but it is inconvenient.

ericgrau
2010-03-01, 04:50 PM
Most bonuses to trip also help you avoid being tripped. You might be better off trying to Grapple... which is a whole different kettle of fish. Attacking from prone isn't life-ending, but it is inconvenient.
You get a full attack of trips. One will land. It's still easy. And if you fail any attempts, all he gets is a free attempt to counter-trip... except he can't now. Grappling works too, but is more limited by reach than tripping is.

Person_Man
2010-03-01, 05:34 PM
Grappling works too, but is more limited by reach than tripping is.

Scorpion's Grasp (Sandstorm) gives you a free Grapple check whenever you hit an enemy with a light or one handed weapon (although you have to drop one handed weapons). This includes the whip, whip dagger, Spinning Sword, and kusari gama, which are all reach weapons. It's extremely effective (especially against casters), although it also has a big down side in that you lose your threatened area and your Dex bonus against everyone you're not in a Grapple with.

ericgrau
2010-03-01, 05:38 PM
So does the reach tripper. I think he's worse off.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-01, 05:40 PM
I believe that only increases reach on your turn. won't help much for tripping.If you used your move action on your turn, then used your Standard action to ready an action, doesn't that mean it's your turn until your readied action goes off, even if other people are also getting their turns?

erikun
2010-03-01, 06:08 PM
There are two common misconceptions with tripping. First, movement only provokes one AoO, regardless of the distance moved. Second, the AoO interrupts the action that provoked it, meaning the action resolves after the AoO.

It's kind of important, because most tripping builds assume a 15' spiked chain (under the assumption that this allows multiple AoOs against a charging opponent) and tripping as opponents stand up (which isn't possible, or at wouldn't make sense as they are still prone at the time).

Of course, tripping on its own is a decent strategy. You get a +4 to hit against prone targets, and a prone opponent gets a -4 to hit against you. Prone targets spend a move action to stand up, either preventing them from fleeing or preventing them from full attacking (or forcing them to full attack at a penality). In addition, with the Improved Trip feat, you get a free attack if you knock someone prone - so you don't lose any attacks during a full attack.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-01, 06:49 PM
If you used your move action on your turn, then used your Standard action to ready an action, doesn't that mean it's your turn until your readied action goes off, even if other people are also getting their turns?
No. Ready is an initiative-modifying action. Your turn stops when you ready, and you get a new turn, with a new initiative, if the trigger occurs.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-01, 10:47 PM
I agree that that's what happened, but it doesn't require a GM ruling to fix because the rules for pricing potions are in a source that takes precedence over the DMG.

Here's the thing. If you're using a potion of enlarge person at CL 1, it only lasts for 1 round. That's really not that helpful since you just used your standard action to quaff a potion. The CL 5 potion otoh lasts for 5 rounds, making it at least somewhat useful. It may well be a simple "copy-paste error" but I think it, at least, may have been intentional.

Greenish
2010-03-01, 10:51 PM
No. Ready is an initiative-modifying action. Your turn stops when you ready, and you get a new turn, with a new initiative, if the trigger occurs.You could ready an action for when someone comes within 10ft. of you, and then it would be your turn when that triggers, allowing to you to benefit from the reach-increasing stance. :smallcool:

lsfreak
2010-03-01, 11:07 PM
Here's the thing. If you're using a potion of enlarge person at CL 1, it only lasts for 1 round. That's really not that helpful since you just used your standard action to quaff a potion. The CL 5 potion otoh lasts for 5 rounds, making it at least somewhat useful. It may well be a simple "copy-paste error" but I think it, at least, may have been intentional.

Not one round, one minute. There's little reason to get anything but the lowest level of potion, unless you combats last far above the average length.

Kylarra
2010-03-01, 11:10 PM
Here's the thing. If you're using a potion of enlarge person at CL 1, it only lasts for 1 round. That's really not that helpful since you just used your standard action to quaff a potion. The CL 5 potion otoh lasts for 5 rounds, making it at least somewhat useful. It may well be a simple "copy-paste error" but I think it, at least, may have been intentional.
Duration: 1 min./level (D)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/EnlargePerson.htm

Pluto
2010-03-01, 11:22 PM
Going back a ways:

Is there any way to make weapons trip weapons with an enchantment or a spell or something?

I will trip you... with my dagger! :smallbiggrin:
Exotic Weapon Master (CWar) is the only thing that comes to mind.

Eldariel
2010-03-01, 11:48 PM
Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown)! Always ready to serve.

sonofzeal
2010-03-01, 11:58 PM
Re: Potions of Enlarge...

It's probably a typo, but actually makes sense from a balance point of view. I mean Enlarge/Reduce Person is possibly the #1 best low level potion in Core. It's powerful and useful at all levels, and can have a significant impact in the fight. Pricing it higher just makes sense, and I'm totally not going to complain. It may be a little off the formula, but there's all sorts of exceptions to just about every pricing formula WotC uses, and many of those exceptions are entirely justified.

...not that they don't get some stuff grievously wrong of course. But I'm willing to accept the higher price for Potions of Enlarge Person. Just say that they're special somehow and can't be made at less than CL 5 without risk of... oh... quantum tunnelling. That sounds good.

Ashiel
2010-03-02, 12:01 AM
Re: Potions of Enlarge...

It's probably a typo, but actually makes sense from a balance point of view. I mean Enlarge/Reduce Person is possibly the #1 best low level potion in Core. It's powerful and useful at all levels, and can have a significant impact in the fight. Pricing it higher just makes sense, and I'm totally not going to complain. It may be a little off the formula, but there's all sorts of exceptions to just about every pricing formula WotC uses, and many of those exceptions are entirely justified.

...not that they don't get some stuff grievously wrong of course. But I'm willing to accept the higher price for Potions of Enlarge Person. Just say that they're special somehow and can't be made at less than CL 5 without risk of... oh... quantum tunnelling. That sounds good.

Sounds horribly arbitrary. :smallconfused:

Sophismata
2010-03-02, 01:10 AM
I agree that that's what happened, but it doesn't require a GM ruling to fix because the rules for pricing potions are in a source that takes precedence over the DMG.

Not quite. While the PH is the primary source for combat rules, the DMG is the primary source for magic items & the making thereof.

Of course, the potions still ought to be 50gp.

sonofzeal
2010-03-02, 01:16 AM
Sounds horribly arbitrary. :smallconfused:
So are many Class Skill Lists, the prices of 3/4 of the Wondrous Items, and what weapons deal how much damage. It's a game system, it's necessarily going to apply arbitrary rules to cover things not necessitated by verisimilitude... which, y'know, is a sizeable portion of the game system. Complaining that parts of an RPG are arbitrary is like complaining that they have dice; in theory you could avoid them, but they aren't exactly things you can avoid without complexity or awkwardness.

Sophismata
2010-03-02, 01:18 AM
Complaining that parts of an RPG are arbitrary is like complaining that they have dice; in theory you could avoid them, but they aren't exactly things you can avoid without complexity or awkwardness.

Lies! I can generate totally random numbers in my head any time, any place. You want a number? 3. Want another number? Also 3.

BAM.

sonofzeal
2010-03-02, 01:28 AM
Lies! I can generate totally random numbers in my head any time, any place. You want a number? 3. Want another number? Also 3.

BAM.
RFC 1149.5 specifies 4 as the standard IEEE-vetted random number (http://xkcd.com/221/). (Note: Actually, it does no such thing. It's a joke. The real world isn't quite that awesome yet.)

Ashiel
2010-03-02, 02:44 AM
So are many Class Skill Lists, the prices of 3/4 of the Wondrous Items, and what weapons deal how much damage. It's a game system, it's necessarily going to apply arbitrary rules to cover things not necessitated by verisimilitude... which, y'know, is a sizeable portion of the game system. Complaining that parts of an RPG are arbitrary is like complaining that they have dice; in theory you could avoid them, but they aren't exactly things you can avoid without complexity or awkwardness.

I mean given the fact there are already rules for making common items such as scrolls, potions, wands and staffs. It's silly to pick one item out of the lot of them and say "Oh, and this one is just Xgp" without a reason. Now that reason could be due to a costly material component (see scroll of identify), or due to an extra XP cost (1 XP = 5gp); but merely just saying "Oh, and this costs 250gp instead of 50gp) is terribly arbitrary.

Also, the examples you give of arbitrary aren't exactly solid. I mean, most of the weapon damages seem to follow certain common laws, even to the point you can quickly scale weapon damage up or down based on size. Class skill lists are chosen based on themes of the classes, and are explained within the context of the rules. Using dice isn't really arbitrary; merely a requirement of the system to include a random number generation method (with dice being the default method).

If you don't understand what I mean, I'm not exactly sure how to explain it to you at the moment. I'll need more time to think about it in other terms. It will suffice to say that none of the other things are arbitrarily breaking the rules of existing things or deviating greatly from the norm without a defined or strongly implied reason (or typo as is the case with some class skill lists).

Why they listed a 5th caster level potion of Enlarge Person is anyone's guess; but it's far from a limitation.

sonofzeal
2010-03-02, 02:54 AM
It will suffice to say that none of the other things are arbitrarily breaking the rules of existing things or deviating greatly from the norm without a defined or strongly implied reason (or typo as is the case with some class skill lists).
See, and I think there's at very least a valid and defensible and not-too-hard-to-spot reason why Potions of Enlarge Person could deviate greatly from the norm. Whether or not it's "strongly implied" is up for debate, but with the number of times they've reprinted the PHB and how much it sticks out to even a cursory glance at the list, I find it exceedingly hard to believe it's a typo. They do make typos, but usually not that obvious and usually cleaned up in errata or later printings.

Given that, I think we have every reason to accept the argument that, hey, maybe they're more expensive because they're still entirely worth it, while most of the others wouldn't be.

Ashiel
2010-03-02, 02:58 AM
See, and I think there's at very least a valid and defensible and not-too-hard-to-spot reason why Potions of Enlarge Person could deviate greatly from the norm. Whether or not it's "strongly implied" is up for debate, but with the number of times they've reprinted the PHB and how much it sticks out to even a cursory glance at the list, I find it exceedingly hard to believe it's a typo. They do make typos, but usually not that obvious and usually cleaned up in errata or later printings.

Given that, I think we have every reason to accept the argument that, hey, maybe they're more expensive because they're still entirely worth it, while most of the others wouldn't be.

If that was the case, I'd imagine they would have side-noted it. Also, if that is the case, why not make most healing potions super cheap; especially since they're generally considered not worth their prices?

Also, doesn't text trump table? :smallconfused:

spectralphoenix
2010-03-02, 03:12 AM
Also of note, it's only a couple -4's. Very significant, to be sure, but not life ending. Often tripping is only good because people think they need to get up only to be tripped again. Doing nothing? That is life ending. Nonono, fight, wait till the tripper is dead, then get up. Heck, trip the tripper back. Even at a -4 it's only a touch attack. Or even if you or the monster focused entirely on non-reach melee (and melee is unusual for someone who isn't also big and/or high strength), someone in the party can use one of the 2 dozen options suggested to take out the tripper.

That's where the 15 foot reach comes in. If you're prone and 15 feet away from your opponent, you have to either get up and move towards him, which provokes a trip for the movement and uses your entire turn so he can just Spring Attack away from you for another trip, and then get one last trip attempt as you charge him on your turn, or else crawl towards him, which provokes an AoO and won't close the gap in one round, so he can just move away again and beat on you some more.

sonofzeal
2010-03-02, 03:24 AM
If that was the case, I'd imagine they would have side-noted it. Also, if that is the case, why not make most healing potions super cheap; especially since they're generally considered not worth their prices?

Also, doesn't text trump table? :smallconfused:
WotC rarely if ever side-notes anything. A cursory glance through the Wondrous Items tables will show you all kinds of anomalies and deviations, none of which are notated or explained.

As to CLW, I think WotC assumed that healing was really valuable when the game first came out. That helps explain the Cleric ("surely nobody would send such a valuable person as the medic to the front lines"), the Healer ("better healing is totally worth massive nerfs in every other area"), and the price of Cure pots.


As to text vs table, I believe the text for that particular table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/potionsAndOils.htm) doesn't actually overrule price in any way.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-02, 03:36 AM
Also, doesn't text trump table? :smallconfused: Yes, in the same source. The DMG is the primary source for premade items, so if you want to buy a standard potion you pay the DMG price. But the PH is the primary source for spells and the item creation feats, so if you brew a potion you can set the caster level accordingly, and come up with something that's cheaper than the standard DMG item.

Don't want to pay the DMG price? Then take Brew Potion yourself. You've got options.

aboyd
2010-03-02, 04:49 AM
Re: Potions of Enlarge...

It's probably a typo, but actually makes sense from a balance point of view.
I'd say it's definitely a typo, considering that they fixed it in the Magic Item Compendium. In the back, they list all items -- from DMG, MIC, splatbooks -- by price. Where is the potion of Enlarge Person? At 50 gp.

sonofzeal
2010-03-02, 04:55 AM
Ah, right you are, never looked at that table before. Objection withdrawn.

Ashiel
2010-03-02, 07:08 AM
Yes, in the same source. The DMG is the primary source for premade items, so if you want to buy a standard potion you pay the DMG price. But the PH is the primary source for spells and the item creation feats, so if you brew a potion you can set the caster level accordingly, and come up with something that's cheaper than the standard DMG item.

Don't want to pay the DMG price? Then take Brew Potion yourself. You've got options.

Considering the DMG has the exact same pricing formulas and even goes so far as to show the formulas for even Paladins and Rangers brewing potions, crafting scrolls, and so forth. It's even included in the SRD: Creating Magic Items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm).

You enjoyed that class with the 66 spells per day typo, didn't you? I mean, it's pretty much the same thing. The chart/list has something wrong and you expect that naturally that must be the way it is for some unspecified, unusual, and undeclared reason; even at the contradiction to existing standard rules. :smallamused:


WotC rarely if ever side-notes anything. A cursory glance through the Wondrous Items tables will show you all kinds of anomalies and deviations, none of which are notated or explained.

As to CLW, I think WotC assumed that healing was really valuable when the game first came out. That helps explain the Cleric ("surely nobody would send such a valuable person as the medic to the front lines"), the Healer ("better healing is totally worth massive nerfs in every other area"), and the price of Cure pots.

I'd beg to differ on that. There's quite a few side bars, notes from the authors, and even suggestions for rule variants in the DMG. There's a few in the MM, and some in other WotC books. Also, many wondrous items don't use the pricing formulas or guidelines to the letter (something spelled out in the side-notes in the DMG as well); but then again you can see that an incredibly large sum of the items use mechanics not associated with the pricing guides and formulas already listed.

Great examples include feather tokens, ring gates, the submarine apparatus, and so forth - for which there is no preset rules for determining. The writers had to wing-it. Scrolls, Potions, Wands, and Staffs don't share this trait. On the flip side, wondrous items (and items like rings) that have specified rules tend to follow them; such as ability score enhancement items (such as gauntlets of ogre strength or cloak of charisma), resistance items (such as cloak of resistance), AC enhancement (bracers of armor, ring of protection, or amulet of natural armor).

I can't understand the logical value behind your previous position; other than enlarge person is too good/overpowered; so it must be priced accordingly without any indicated rhyme or reason. Literally guessing or interpreting something that stands out as incorrect amongst all the usual rules for it, and trying to invent an unspecified reason for its existence.


I'd say it's definitely a typo, considering that they fixed it in the Magic Item Compendium. In the back, they list all items -- from DMG, MIC, splatbooks -- by price. Where is the potion of Enlarge Person? At 50 gp. Well that clears everything up. Thanks *****. :smallsmile:

Defiant
2010-03-02, 10:29 PM
The online Feat Index (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats) is a useful resource to bookmark.

Indeed it is.

Are there any weapon enchantments that increase reach? I'd rather keep my fluff than have these weird elongated arms.

elonin
2010-03-02, 11:10 PM
Just to throw something out there I played with someone who made a trip build. He was a human psi-war who had improved trip and the feats up to whirlwind. Also think he had combat reflexes and improved disarm. Using expansion+spiked chain+whirlwind attack meant that he controlled a fair bit of the battle field.

On the tumble thought that free action implies no attack of opportunity with an successful check. And maybe I didn't get the context but you can provoke 2 attacks of opportunity from movement. Standing up plus moving while threatened. While on this subject do you make a single tumble check vs each person (ie 15 then 17 then 19) or just the highest check? Also MeQ actions do still exist for example moving up to base speed +drawing weapon. Or Drop bow (free), move while drawing one sword (move), then attack (standard).

Just to remind there is also the shadow enhancement in the MIC that for some number of times a day lets you extend your reach. And any concealment makes AOO's impossible.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-02, 11:18 PM
Just to throw something out there I played with someone who made a trip build. He was a human psi-war who had improved trip and the feats up to whirlwind. Also think he had combat reflexes and improved disarm. Using expansion+spiked chain+whirlwind attack meant that he controlled a fair bit of the battle field.Psychic warriors ARE some of the best trippers out there, agreed.


And any concealment makes AOO's impossible.Concealment: yes. Full concealment: no.

This makes greater concealing amorpha a great power for any manifester to get (no AoOs; no problem!).

Runestar
2010-03-02, 11:24 PM
Indeed it is.

Are there any weapon enchantments that increase reach? I'd rather keep my fluff than have these weird elongated arms.

I think there is one in MIC, but it can only be used a few times a day.

Mystic Muse
2010-03-02, 11:31 PM
I think there is one in MIC, but it can only be used a few times a day.

two times a day and elongates your arms IIRC so doesn't really work for the character's fluff.

Apropos
2010-03-02, 11:34 PM
Indeed it is.

Are there any weapon enchantments that increase reach? I'd rather keep my fluff than have these weird elongated arms.

There's an Iron Heart stance (I can't remember the name, something with "snake" in it) that increases your reach for your turn only.

Greenish
2010-03-03, 12:12 AM
There's an Iron Heart stance (I can't remember the name, something with "snake" in it) that increases your reach for your turn only.Dancing Blade Form, 5th level stance.

Runestar
2010-03-03, 12:41 AM
two times a day and elongates your arms IIRC so doesn't really work for the character's fluff.

I wasn't talking about the gauntlets of extended reach. I could have sworn there was some sort of weapon property which increases its reach by 5ft for 1 round or something. But AFB at the moment, so can't check it out.

Ring a bell for anyone?

Defiant
2010-03-03, 01:33 AM
Now thinking about it, would a larger weapon give me greater reach? If I wield a large longsword, do I have 10ft reach? Large spiked chain, 15ft reach?

I could probably easily find feats to minimize the penalties (or not) and go with that.

Greenish
2010-03-03, 02:01 AM
Now thinking about it, would a larger weapon give me greater reach? If I wield a large longsword, do I have 10ft reach? Large spiked chain, 15ft reach?By RAW, "Reach weapons typically double creature's normal range", though there are exceptions, such as awlpike or whip.

Defiant
2010-03-03, 02:08 AM
By RAW, "Reach weapons typically double creature's normal range", though there are exceptions, such as awlpike or whip.

So I'm guessing that's a no :smalltongue:

balistafreak
2010-03-03, 09:47 AM
Just a thought:

Improved Trip = free attack if successful.

Knockdown = if you strike for 10 or more points of melee damage, free trip attack.

The way it reads, you can get a Knockdown from an Improved Trip free attack, which you'll use to get another Improved Trip, which will get you another Knockdown... all the same BAB that you started with.

I mean, the rules say nothing about being unable to trip an already prone foe. Obviously, you'll eventually miss an attack somewhere, whether in the touch attack to begin a trip, the trip check, or the free attack for damage, but the potential for instant-death is still highly amusing.

In the words of Kenshiro from Fist of the North Star:

ATATATATATATATATATATATATATATATATATATATATATATATA!!! !

You get my point. :p

Person_Man
2010-03-03, 10:05 AM
Just a thought:

Improved Trip = free attack if successful.

Knockdown = if you strike for 10 or more points of melee damage, free trip attack.

The way it reads, you can get a Knockdown from an Improved Trip free attack, which you'll use to get another Improved Trip, which will get you another Knockdown... all the same BAB that you started with.

Read the errata for Knock-Down (it's in one of the 3.0 books). Also, my previous post in this thread which explains how each feat works.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-03, 10:52 AM
I'd say you have a solid argument for a very reasonable houserule.

However, that section of the MIC lists itself as a shopping list, not an update. It makes no mention of errata or the like (such as CompPsi does with its powers).

What does this mean?

When 2 rules sections (DMG and MIC) conflict, primary source holds sway.

What is primary source for an item printed in the DMG, and referenced in the MIC?

The DMG.

Thus, the DMG's price holds sway, by RAW.

Were the MIC to list that its list updates others, or reflects adjusted prices, or SOMETHING to that effect, it would be primary source for the changes.

But it doesn't. So it isn't.

Defiant
2010-03-03, 11:21 AM
Were the MIC to list that its list updates others, or reflects adjusted prices, or SOMETHING to that effect, it would be primary source for the changes.

But it doesn't. So it isn't.

Actually it does. Somewhere towards the beginning it lists that some prices are different from other sources, and that this was done in order to rebalance certain things. It goes so far as to tell DMs (and players) how to readjust their wealth level based on these changed prices: DMs might want to give a few extra items to players with now-lower-priced items, and players might be happy that the items they have are now higher-priced.

EDIT: Bottom of page 4

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-03, 11:30 AM
Actually it does. Somewhere towards the beginning it lists that some prices are different from other sources, and that this was done in order to rebalance certain things. It goes so far as to tell DMs (and players) how to readjust their wealth level based on these changed prices: DMs might want to give a few extra items to players with now-lower-priced items, and players might be happy that the items they have are now higher-priced.

EDIT: Bottom of page 4

I stand corrected.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-03, 05:35 PM
Read the errata for Knock-Down (it's in one of the 3.0 books).
You're referring to the Sword and Fist Errata, which includes extra text for "Knockdown", which isn't actually in that book. That aside, the most recent publication of the Knock-Down feat is in Deities and Demigods, which is substantially identical to the original feat from Sword and Fist. The Official D&D Errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20060531a) page doesn't list anything for Deities and Demigods; there's a D&D v.3.5 Accessory Update Booklet for the book at this page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a), but it contains nothing about Knock-Down. So, as long as you're willing to call your character "the deity", you may use that general feat in Deities and Demigods, free of any errata. All strictly according to WotC's rules about using the most recent versions of things, of course. :smallsmile:

Escheton
2010-04-15, 07:37 AM
One takes knockdown mainly to watch foes fly 10 ft and to the floor when using charging minotaur and getting a AoO during that flight...

and when using other maneuvers that include a normal dmg dealing attack
free trip, who wouldnt love that?