Goblins: Tactical RPG

[Kensen]

I've been thinking of designing another goblin game, similar to Goblins: the Exodus, but focusing on individual goblins rather than goblin families. I'll recycle a lot of the flavor and some of the mechanics from the earlier system, but I'll add a lot of detail and options for character development.

Here's the first draft of my design specification:

Design goals
* The primary objective in the game is survival: gathering resources (hunting, fishing, woodcutting, etc.) and crafting tools (bows, axes, spears, traps, poisons, etc.). The game also features a lot of tactical combat. The game is by no means a full-fledged RPG, but roleplaying is encouraged.
* A campaign consists of a number of scenarios. Each scenario features a battle grid and one or more problems the goblins must solve. The placement of campfires, fortifications, traps and sentries is important.
* Tactical combat must be fast and simple because the game is played on message boards. Players can write "scripts" for their goblins that determine how they react in certain situations, thus lessening the amount of interaction and making combat faster. Battle grids shall be used. The combat system rewards planning and tactical thinking, but it is possible (if more difficult) to win battles with little or no planning.
* The two main resource types are food and wood. Both are essential for survival. Wood is obtained by chopping down trees with axes. Food is obtained by killing animals and monsters. Eating certain types of food may have advantageous or disadvantageous effects.
* Crafting materials are more detailed than in most games, including wood, sinew, bone, horn, flint, leather, fur, etc. Some materials are harder to work with, but for example, a flint arrowhead is more durable and has a better armor piercing value than a bone tip. Crafting materials affect the tools' properties in a realistic fashion. For example, an arrow fletched with feathers from a slain bird has better accuracy and range than an arrow with no fletching. Crafting materials obtained from rare or magical creatures make it possible to craft even better weapons.
* Perks (similar to feats in D&D) determine how skilled a character is at something. There are perk trees for different tools and actions. There are synergies between perks from the same perk trees and sometimes between similar perks from different perk trees. For example, it costs one xp less for a goblin with the Axe Thrower perk to obtain the Spear Thrower perk. As the goblins gain experience, they can pick more perks.
* There are at least three basic types of goblins: big, smart and fast. Each type grants a bonus on actions. For example, a big goblin can use more powerful bows, a fast goblin is a better skirmisher, and a smart goblin has more crafting options (traps, poisons, better arrows).
* All perks, materials, tools, weapons, etc. should have a distinctive goblin flavor to them.

Anyway, please comment and ask questions if you have any. :smallsmile:

In the coming weeks, I'll start fleshing out the actual game mechanics. All kinds of input is appreciated.

[The Bookworm]

Looks great to me! I'm eager to play already!

[Kuma Da]

I was actually going to suggest you do this when exodus ended. :smallbiggrin:

I'm certainly happy to help.

[Morty]

Hmmm. So, basically, it's like Goblins: the Exodus but more complex. I like what I see here so far.

[Cieyrin]

After having a read through the Exodus so far and looking at what you're doing for Goblins 2: The Revival of Gobenheim, it almost feels to me like Final Fantasy Tactics with Goblins, though with crafting thrown in. I approve heartily, as FFT is still an awesome game after all these years.

For the crafting bits, I assume it'll be a tad bit more complicated than the difference between normal and awesome, like in Exodus, like starting with a base tool which provides +1 to an action and then adding stuff to them to make them specifically better, either in general or in certain situations, yeah? Would it be a slot based system for the tools, like for arrows having a space for the head, fletching and shaft?

As for combat itself, I assume to keep it quick, you'd keep it to simply to comparisons of combat strength, with the victor either killing or knocking out their opponent, depending on what weapon your using. Maybe splitting Combat Strength to Attack and Defense values would be in order, if you want to further complicate things and add an armor mechanic.

Just a few things that have come to mind. I may be back with more. :smallbiggrin:

[Kensen]

Thanks for the input! :smallsmile:

Yes, tools/weapons are going to be more complicated, with a slot based system. A few examples:

An arrow in its simplest form is a straight, sharpened wooden stick. It's relatively easy and fast to craft, but its damage, armor piercing and range values are poor. However, if you have the right materials you can pimp the arrow.

If you have feathers (i.e. you've killed a bird) you can increase the range because fletching stabilizes the flight or the arrow.
If you have bone or flint, you can craft arrowheads. Flint is more difficult to work into arrowheads, but its armor piercing value is a lot better than that of a bone tip.
Then there is bronze and iron. Their damage and armor piercing values are even better. The goblins don't know how to mine metals, so they are considered superior materials.
And finally, it's possible to obtain magical materials. An arrow with a darkwood shaft, angel feathers for fletching and a basilisk bone tip... Enough said. :smallbiggrin:


And that's just arrows. The bow itself can be made of wood, bone and other materials. Similarly, your axes, spears and other tools are more efficient if you use better materials.

Combat will be more complex than what it is in Goblins: the Exodus. I've been thinking that combat will be grid-based. But you cannot do a lot more than move & attack in combat. Each weapon has accuracy and damage values, and the perks you've selected also affect your ability to hit and deal damage. Armor reduces damage, but armor piercing ignores armor. That's about it, I guess.

There are some "advanced" options such as traps and fortifications that allow you to use the terrain to your advantage.

[Kensen]

So, adding stuff little by little. First let's have a look at the basic stats of a creature (such as one of the goblins):

[moved to the master list]

[Kensen]

Combat actions and mechanics

[moved to the master table]

[Kensen]

Perks

Perks have been moved to the master table (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AjfBKMVc1_KcdC0waTZSLXlYMUFwb2F4dlFrQmdBb Wc&hl=en)!

[Kensen]

Weapons and materials

Has been moved to the master table!

[Cieyrin]

If you have Spear and Shield, do you keep your reach advantage? Stabbing with one hand makes me think you shouldn't be able to, as you can't quite extend as much as if you're two-handing it, though perhaps I haven't watched 300 in a while. :smallbiggrin:

As for critting, i'd make it part of the to hit roll if you get 90-100 on your roll. Reducing number of rolls quickens posting, which is important if we're gonna move multiple gobbos about the battlefield per turn.

Also, no Hammer perks? Color me a little disappointed, as I could see at least a stun effect on crits. The same for Knives, as you could at least do dual wielding and a bleed effect on crit. Maybe even extend the crit range of knives with a perk. =D

That's what I got right now. I eagerly await to see some Bow perks, as well as the extent of bow and arrow mods that can be done.

[Kensen]

Yes you keep the reach advantage, but you lose the damage bonus. Spear & shield is a powerful combo, and it's no coincidence that many historical armies fielded units using that combo. The larger shields and spears have high encumberance values, though, which means that your mobility will be reduced somewhat. Also, in tight quarters an axe fighter will easily beat the spear fighter.

The crit chance is not actually a static 10%, it's one tenth of your chance to hit. My wording was vague, sorry about that. If you have a 60% chance to hit an opponent, there's a 6% chance to score a critical hit. Like so:

01-06 Double damage, ignore armor
07-60 Normal damage
61-00 Miss

I was also thinking that maybe there's a chance to hit you opponent's weapon or shield. If, for example, the opponent has a shield that gives him +10% defence, there's a 10% chance to hit the shield. The shield takes the damage minus its "armor" value, based on the material. What do you think?

There are no hammer perks yet. The list I posted is by no means complete, just a start. I'll be sure add hammer perks later, but I haven't decided yet how to make the hammer seem unique as a weapon. The spear has reach, the axe is versatile, and the bow&arrow is very customizable. The stun effect is a good idea. Maybe the damage negated by armor still counts towards knocking an opponent unconscious or something like that. :smallsmile:

I may add knife perks later, but it's really just a back-up weapon and tool. Maybe dual wielding as you suggested, or throwing, or something that allows you to make better grab and stab attacks. To keep things relatively simple, I probably won't add rules for bleeding damage as it increases the amount of bookkeeping. Similarly, there won't be many conditions to keep track of - you're either fully functional, unconscious or dead.

As for bow perks, I'll add a few more later. I'll probably add a perk that increases the bow's range.

[Cieyrin]

I was also thinking that maybe there's a chance to hit you opponent's weapon or shield. If, for example, the opponent has a shield that gives him +10% defence, there's a 10% chance to hit the shield. The shield takes the damage minus its "armor" value, based on the material. What do you think?

So we're adding a sundering mechanic? That may get a bit overly complicated, though if it's just that damaged equipment is less functional, like -5-10% accuracy and -2 damage or -5% deflection, then I could see that not being too bad. If we need to also keep track of an endurance total for weapons and shields, that may not be desirable.


There are no hammer perks yet. The list I posted is by no means complete, just a start. I'll be sure add hammer perks later, but I haven't decided yet how to make the hammer seem unique as a weapon. The spear has reach, the axe is versatile, and the bow&arrow is very customizable. The stun effect is a good idea. Maybe the damage negated by armor still counts towards knocking an opponent unconscious or something like that. :smallsmile:

By knocked unconscious, is this the "Lose 50% or more health in one blow" thing? If there was some mechanic for the hammer have to hit a lesser threshold for achieving that, I could see that as feasible.

[Kensen]

So we're adding a sundering mechanic? That may get a bit overly complicated, though if it's just that damaged equipment is less functional, like -5-10% accuracy and -2 damage or -5% deflection, then I could see that not being too bad. If we need to also keep track of an endurance total for weapons and shields, that may not be desirable.

Yes you're probably right. That would only add to the number of things to keep track of. I'll consider adding the rule only if I can figure out a way to make it streamlined enough.


By knocked unconscious, is this the "Lose 50% or more health in one blow" thing? If there was some mechanic for the hammer have to hit a lesser threshold for achieving that, I could see that as feasible.

Yes, I was talking about that. I guess it would make sense. Blunt objects are more likely to incapacitate than wound your opponent, compared to sharp objects.

[Kensen]

Sample creatures

Moved to the master table!

[BobElliot]

I'm intrigued. All the ideas so far sound like a great deal of fun, and I really enjoy the Exodus game for its ease of use and casual feel that I think will easily extend over to here. Is there a different thread that you want people to sign up on? I just followed your sig to get here, but a remember a bigger thread somewhere.

As far as my input, I wonder what will be the starting amount of perks/rate of xp will be. How complex can the builds get, and how fast can we expect them to grow?

[Cieyrin]

Is there going to be a difference between full attacks and single attack, as I notice the White Hounds seem to make 2 bites a round and it makes me wonder how that'll work.

[Kensen]

It's just one attack, but their accuracy and damage values are better if they enter the opponent's square (=range 0). Exactly like the knife, in fact. A range 1 bite is a cautious nibble, while a range 0 bite is more like leaping on the prey and using paws to get a better hold of the opponent.

This being the first draft, there isn't as much explanatory text as there should be, sorry about that. There probably won't be "full attacks" at all. Dual wielders don't get two attacks either, it only increases the accuracy of the attack because you can better feint and break the opponent's guard with two weapons.

[Cieyrin]

It's just one attack, but their accuracy and damage values are better if they enter the opponent's square (=range 0). Exactly like the knife, in fact. A range 1 bite is a cautious nibble, while a range 0 bite is more like leaping on the prey and using paws to get a better hold of the opponent.

This being the first draft, there isn't as much explanatory text as there should be, sorry about that. There probably won't be "full attacks" at all. Dual wielders don't get two attacks either, it only increases the accuracy of the attack because you can better feint and break the opponent's guard with two weapons.

Ah, fair enough, then. That makes perfect sense, though having an explanation of the effects of entering other creatures' space would help, I think, when you get that far.

[Kensen]

I'm intrigued. All the ideas so far sound like a great deal of fun, and I really enjoy the Exodus game for its ease of use and casual feel that I think will easily extend over to here. Is there a different thread that you want people to sign up on? I just followed your sig to get here, but a remember a bigger thread somewhere.

As far as my input, I wonder what will be the starting amount of perks/rate of xp will be. How complex can the builds get, and how fast can we expect them to grow?

Thanks. :smallsmile: There no recruitment thread yet. Actually, it'll probably take a couple or weeks or maybe even months to finish writing the rules. Pretty much everything I've written so far can be seen in this thread. I hope it's enough to get an idea of how the game works, so you can better suggest improvements and so on.

As for starting perks, I'm not sure yet. It largely depends on the total number of perks. If there are, say, 100 perks to choose from, you'll probably start with five to ten perks. But I think I'll limit the perk selection somehow so you won't be able, for example, to pick all spear perks right off the bat and totally suck at everything else. :smallbiggrin: Perhaps a maximum of two perks from each category.

[ForzaFiori]

You might wanna look at rules for domesticating animals. That way more advanced tribes might have a group of cows or something that they keep, and therefor have a ready supply of some of the more basic stuff (fur, meat, sinew, bone) or even horses, and therefor a tactical advantage in combat.

[Cieyrin]

You might wanna look at rules for domesticating animals. That way more advanced tribes might have a group of cows or something that they keep, and therefor have a ready supply of some of the more basic stuff (fur, meat, sinew, bone) or even horses, and therefor a tactical advantage in combat.

Given they're goblins, perhaps wolves would be more appropriate as mounts? As for herd animals, I'd think they'd prefer to handle goats and sheep over cows, as they're less likely to get crushed that way.:smalltongue:

[Kensen]

So far I've only been thinking of adding an "Animal trainer" perk that allows your goblin to get an animal companion, sort of. Not sure of the actual mechanics yet, but maybe if you're able to defeat an animal in single combat without killing it, you can use the perk to befriend it.

It'll follow you around and help you if it can, but it'll revert back to its combat tactics if something threatens it. In other words, a bunnit will run away and return only after it's safe again, while a white hound will use the same pack tactics as when hunting with members of its own species. Just an idea. :smallsmile:

EDIT: And so that it won't get out of hand too easily, you can only have one animal friend at a time.

[Kensen]

ARMOR

Moved to the master table!

[Cieyrin]

Is scale leather going to be one of those armors that can be only crafted by those with appropriate Crafter perks, as it seems to need a bit more technical know-how than Boiled Leather does? Perhaps those are yet to come, eh?

Also, is leather essentially going to be a processed material, as you can't really just get that off an animal like other things?

Finally the numbers look alright preliminarily for defense values but yeah, some playtesting to determine how well they work is probably in order.

EDIT: Also good on the one animal companion limit, as managing multiple animal minions seems to me to be a stretch of the mental capacities of gobbos, given they're primarily hunter-gatherer types, it would seem. Not very knowledgable yet in the matters of Animal Husbandry and the values of herding.

[Kensen]

Scale armor is more difficult and time-consuming to make than the other types of leather armor. I'm not sure yet how I'm going to implement the crafting perks, but maybe each perk unlocks a couple of new object types. Each object type also has a tool requirement, e.g. boiled leather requires something to heat water in.

Yes, leather is a processed material. You need fur to make leather (the skin of reptiles and other types of animals can be used as well).

An idea for crafting perks:

Basic perks: Leatherworking, woodworking, etc. With these perks you can make simple items from the specified type of material. Leatherworking, for example unlocks the secrets of tanning, boiling and cutting leather, and enables making pouches, backpacks, armor, clothes, straps, etc. from leather.

Advanced perks: Armor making, bow making, etc. With these perks you can make specialized items for the specified purpose. To make scale armor, you need both Leatherworking and Armor making. To craft a composite bow, you need Woodworking, Bow making, and a perk that covers bone and horn.

[Cieyrin]

Scale armor is more difficult and time-consuming to make than the other types of leather armor. I'm not sure yet how I'm going to implement the crafting perks, but maybe each perk unlocks a couple of new object types. Each object type also has a tool requirement, e.g. boiled leather requires something to heat water in.

Yes, leather is a processed material. You need fur to make leather (the skin of reptiles and other types of animals can be used as well).

An idea for crafting perks:

Basic perks: Leatherworking, woodworking, etc. With these perks you can make simple items from the specified type of material. Leatherworking, for example unlocks the secrets of tanning, boiling and cutting leather, and enables making pouches, backpacks, armor, clothes, straps, etc. from leather.

Advanced perks: Armor making, bow making, etc. With these perks you can make specialized items for the specified purpose. To make scale armor, you need both Leatherworking and Armor making. To craft a composite bow, you need Woodworking, Bow making, and a perk that covers bone and horn.

Sounds just like how I thought it would work. It'll come down to how many perks are available at creation, how many gobbos are available and rate of acquiring perks that'll really clinch this, methinks, though that's quite a bit to spell out quite yet. Good on you, though, I likes what I'm seeing. :smallsmile:

[Kensen]

Materials value and encumberance

Moved to the master table!

[Kensen]

Taurukk added to sample creatures, perk list updated!

[Cieyrin]

Ooo, lots of new stuff to look at! =3

My only comment on Taurukk is that their trample should probably hit multiple opponents, though how that'll work in your system, I have no clue.

For the perks, I like the use of tiers but will there also be perk trees, like weapon proficiency opening up expertise, followed by mastery? Will gobbos be created with a certain amount of XP to be spent on perks?

On specific perks, Animal Trainer seems like it should be an advanced perk, leading off from Tracker, as you learn more about the natural world and applying said knowledge, like knowing what kind of food the white hounds like and use it to establish to a white hound that you're a member of its pack and should be protected as such.

Skirmish seems more of a Mobility perk and could lead off of the speed perk as an advanced perk of the tree.

It also seems like shields should have some perks available, beginning with proficiency so that you don't trip over your shield when trying to move about to making better use of one to possibly even attacking with one to momentarily confuse an enemy, dropping their accuracy down a notch.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[Kensen]

I added a few perks that allow you to make multiple attacks (barrage, dual strike and sweeping attack). Perhaps I'll give the taurukk something similar, one attack, many flattened goblins. :smallbiggrin:

I also added a few perks that use health as a resource. Health represents your ability to endure not only pain but also fatigue. Thus, using these perks is always a bit of a gambit, but I like the mechanic myself. That way it's possible to make some of the perks slightly more powerful.

Yes, there'll be perk trees. The advanced and master perks have prerequisites just like D&D feats or prestige classes.

And yes, the goblins get some xp they can use to buy their starting perks. Maybe 40 xp. Example build with 40 xp: 2 proficiencies, 1 crafting perk and tracking = 4 basic perks (16 xp) + 2 advanced perks (12 xp) + 1 master perk (10 xp) + 2 xp for later use.

To avoid top-heavy builds, xp spent on basic perks => xp spent on advanced perks => xp spent on master perks. There are too few basic perks at the moment, though, but I'll add more and maybe move some of the worse advanced perks down to the basic tier.

I like your idea on the animal trainer perk. I'll also consider adding shield proficiency and other perks related to shields.

[Kensen]

Razorwing

Moved to the master table!

[Kensen]

Gaining xp

[moved to the master table]

[curtis]

The challenges are in no way relevant to the task at hand. Instead, they're more like personal goals. Below are some examples:

Poison is my poison (5 xp): Get poisoned by three different types of monsters.
Knife happy (3 xp): Get five kills with the knife.
Three in a row (4 xp): Get three kills on three consecutive rounds.
Culinarist (3 xp): Try five different types of meat. (From any creature types...)
This is Gobberheim! (4 xp): Push an enemy into a pit with Knockback.
Big game hunter (8 xp): Kill a taurukk.
Near-death experience (3 xp): Get knocked unconscious three times.

What you've done looks amazing, and I may be totally wrong here, but I thought you were trying to limit status conditions to healthy, unconcious and dead?

[Kensen]

That's right, I try to limit the number of things to keep track of during combat. (The challenges do increase the number of things to keep track of, but they have no effect on an ongoing fight, so it's all good in my opinion.)

But poisons.. well I haven't decided yet how to implement them. But there are at least two ways to do it without resorting to status conditions:

Lethal poison: Bonus damage that is dealt only if the weapon damage is enough to defeat the opponent's armor.
Knockout poison: Virtual damage that doesn't reduce health points but may knock the target unconscious if the virtual damage exceeds the target's remaining health points. If not, the poison has no effect.


I may actually use both types of poison, for different monster types.

[Kensen]

Perks updated.

And a sample venomous creature:

[moved to the master table]

[Cieyrin]

Quick Reflexes should probably either be a Speed or Tactical Trick, methinks.

Poisonmaking looks to me like it should have Alchemy as a prerequisite but leaving it as an Advanced perk, as it's not so much advancing the Goblin's understanding as applying the knowledge to a new area. Perhaps a Master perk could be making poison more virulent, so that it gets a bonus on damage or some such.

The Black Arrow looks just about right for a snake, though I could certainly see the surprised Goblin getting taken down by one quite easily.

EDIT: Oh! A though just occurred to me, what if the Black Arrow was your Companion? Could you milk one for its poison? That seems like a Master perk in the making for that tree, utilizing or improving your companion's qualities. =3

[Kensen]

Flavor-wise, poison making covers knowing where the venom glands are located and the skill to milk the venom without accidentally poisoning yourself. It also covers using herbs or something else to stabilize the chemicals in the poison so that it won't lose its potency when it comes to contact with air.

Alchemy, on the other hand, is mostly about burning wood at the right temperatures to transform it into charcoal, tar, methanol, or other substances that can be used as fuel or explosives. The processes are entirely different and not really related, and moreover, poisons are closely associated with Seyhja the Huntress, while alchemy is associated with Pyrhekk (and to some extent, Merkan). I'll post more info on the deities later.

But you're right, poison making should have a prerequisite. I'm just not sure what it should be. Maybe Tracker, because both Tracker and Poison making require some animal knowledge. It's not from the same perk tree but it's not a huge problem.

A black arrow would probably make a good animal companion, quite useful but not too strong to break game balance. There's got to be a limit to how much poison you can milk from the snake, though, or else you can deal +2d6 damage on each attack with a bow, which would be unbalanced.

[Cieyrin]

Flavor-wise, poison making covers knowing where the venom glands are located and the skill to milk the venom without accidentally poisoning yourself. It also covers using herbs or something else to stabilize the chemicals in the poison so that it won't lose its potency when it comes to contact with air.

Alchemy, on the other hand, is mostly about burning wood at the right temperatures to transform it into charcoal, tar, methanol, or other substances that can be used as fuel or explosives. The processes are entirely different and not really related, and moreover, poisons are closely associated with Seyhja the Huntress, while alchemy is associated with Pyrhekk (and to some extent, Merkan). I'll post more info on the deities later.

But you're right, poison making should have a prerequisite. I'm just not sure what it should be. Maybe Tracker, because both Tracker and Poison making require some animal knowledge. It's not from the same perk tree but it's not a huge problem.

A black arrow would probably make a good animal companion, quite useful but not too strong to break game balance. There's got to be a limit to how much poison you can milk from the snake, though, or else you can deal +2d6 damage on each attack with a bow, which would be unbalanced.

Yeah, Tracker would make sense as a prereq, as, as you say, Alchemy and Poisionmaking aren't very related.

As for milking a black arrow, do realize that snakes in RL need time to generate poison. It's generally not a problem for them, given that the time between hunts is enough for them to regenerate their stores but milking one for its poison would make it nonpoisonous for a time, as its glands work to produce another dose or two. Poisons are designed so that they only need to strike once or twice before their victim is incapacitated or killed and thus only generally have that much poison at a time.

As for the time frame of regenerating their poison reservoirs, my brief Googling produced nothing, though I may just be using the wrong keywords, so no idea on that front. If nothing else, you could say that they produce a dose per day and have some upper limit to how much poison they can have at a time, as glands only hold so much. Probably 1-3 doses would be best.

[Kensen]

Yeah that makes sense. Other ways to maintain balance that I can think of are giving the venom as smaller damage die if it's smeared on a weapon rather than injected through fangs because the preservative herbs you have to add dilute the poison, and giving the venom an expiration date.

Anyway, as I already mentioned in the Goblins: the Exodus thread, I'm looking for playtesters, so anyone who is sufficiently interested can join. You can also contribute by suggesting new perks, new challenges, and new monsters to stat out. :smallsmile:

And here's a preliminary table of contents for the rules system:


THE WORLD OF GOBLINS
* Goblins
- Physiology (pictures)
- Religion (symbol/picture of each deity)
- Culture
- Technology
* Other sentient species
- Humans
- ???
* Gobberheim (map of Gobberheim)
* The rest of the world (world map)

CHARACTERS
* Creating a character
* Advancement
- XP and acquiring new perks
- Challenges
* Perks
* Equipment
- Crafting rules

TACTICAL COMBAT
* Movement
- Special movement modes
- Stealth and detection
* Attacking
- Special attacks and boosts
- Actions that replace attacks

BESTIARY
* Black arrow
* Bunnit
* Razorwing
* Taurukk
* White hound
* ???

[curtis]

*volunteers for playtesting*

[Kensen]

Excellent, thanks curtis. :smallsmile:

I have three volunteers now, so there's room for at least one more playtester.

For the "alpha" playtest rules, I think I'll include the following parts:


THE WORLD OF GOBLINS
* Goblins
- Physiology (pictures)
- Religion (symbol/picture of each deity)
- Culture
- Technology
* Other sentient species
- Humans
- ???
* Gobberheim (map of Gobberheim)
* The rest of the world (world map)

CHARACTERS
* Creating a character
* Advancement
- XP and acquiring new perks
- Challenges
* Perks
* Equipment
- Crafting rules

TACTICAL COMBAT
* Movement
- Special movement modes
- Terrain
- Stealth and detection
* Attacking
- Special attacks and boosts
- Actions that replace attacks

BESTIARY
* Black arrow
* Bunnit
* Razorwing
* Taurukk
* White hound
* ???

I'm thinking I might compile a playtest PDF of the relevant rules, or set up an HTML webpage with hyperlinks and stuff.

[Kensen]

Equipment master list (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AjfBKMVc1_KcdC0waTZSLXlYMUFwb2F4dlFrQmdBb Wc&hl=en) (still incomplete)

Also, lots of updates in the perks.

[Jokes]

I'll put my hand up for playtesting, I have a whole clan of goblins waiting to prove their worth :smallwink:

[Kensen]

Excellent! You're the fourth playtester. Four is probably enough, but more people can join if there's interest.

The characters used in the first playtest scenario will have 40 xp worth of perks, and 80 beads worth of equipment. It'll be a combat scenario, and the tracking and stealth rules will not be used, so buy perks that will be useful in combat. The number of advanced perks you have may not exceed the number of basic perks, and the number of master perks may not exceed the number of advanced perks. If you choose crafting perks, you can buy raw materials and make items yourself. There's no time limit for crafting in the scenario.

[Inhuman Bot]

Sounds fun. I don't know much about makeing this sort of thing, so I'll just wish you luck. :smalltongue:

[Lord Loss]

I could probably help playtest. Count me in for now. Sounds awesome!

[Kensen]

Lord Loss: Ok, thanks. :smallsmile:

I'll try to compile the playtest rules into a PDF sometime soon, but you may already attempt to create a character.

Here's a sample goblin I created with 40 xp and 80 beads:

Bruthak, goblin skirmisher

Attack stats
Speed: 6 squares (Skirmish)
Range: 1-2 (spear), 3-8 (thrown spear)
Accuracy: +10%
Damage: melee 1d8+3, ranged 1d8+1 (armor piercing +1, Brutal attack)

Defense stats
Defense: melee +10%, ranged +0%
Armor: 2
Health: 20

Equipment:

Flint spear: 8 beads, enc 7
Bone spear: 6 beads, enc 6
Scale armor: 50 beads, enc 5->2.5
Backpack: 16 beads, enc 2

Encumberance: 15 (combat gear), 17 total

Perks: Proficiency/spear, Throwing/spear, Expertise/spear, Brutal attack, Speed, Skirmish, Endurance, Armor training

[Kuma Da]

Name: Preya the Weakest
Appearance: short and slim, even for a goblin, with streaks of ochre paint across his cheeks.

Speed: 6
Health: 25

Defense: -5%
Armor: 0

Carrying capacity: 17/15

Weapon (range/accuracy/damage): knife 0-1/+0%/1d4, composite bow 1-8/+0%/1d8,

Equipment: flint knife 1, composite bow 4, 10 arrows 5, waterskin 2, backpack 2, quiver 1, 1 meat 2

Perks: Endurance (+5 carrying capacity,) treat wound (double heal speed for self or ally,) toughness (+5 health,) speed (speed +1,) tracker (find tracks,) stealth (move unnoticed,) wood working, bone working, leather working, proficiency: bow,

[Lord Loss]

Well, here's my attempt at character creation.

Figgle
(Tall, but very weak. A curious smile on his face, as if he was questioning the nature of the universe. Or whether or not to eat an apple he found on the ground. Or whether or not to eat you. Heck, not even I know what he's wondering...)

Speed: 6
Health: 20

Defense: +5%
Armor: 0

Weapon: Composite Bow (1-8/ +15% / 1d8 (+ 5% critical)) Flint Knife (0-1/+0%/1d4)
Equipment: 10 arrows, flint knife, backpack, waterskin, quiver, meat

Perks: Speed, Woodworking, Quick reflexes, Proficiency (bow), Burst of Speed, Expertise (bow), Mastery (Bow) .


Figgle wasn't very strong. He wasn't very smart. He wasn't very funny. So when people started chasing him, he learnt to run fast.

Question: Can a perk be taken more than once? (Eg. Speed)

[Jokes]

Ton the Fat

He's a tad portly, but he's been working out.

Speed: 5
Health: 25

Defense: 10% melee, 10% ranged
Armour: 1 (soft leather)

Range: 1 (axe)
Accuracy: +15%
Damage: 1d6+1
Armour Piercing: +1
Critical: 11% (does Mastery add to the base chance, ie 5 + (65*0.1)=11.5%, or (65+5)*0.1=7%)

Equipment:
{table=head]Item | Cost | Enc
Soft Leather Armour | 20 | 2
Small Shield | 7 | 4
axe | 14 | 3[/table]
Enc=9 (no penalty)

Perks:
Toughness, Proficiency (axe), Proficiency (Shield), expertise (axe) master (axe), knockback, barrage.

I think it's all legal, but it's late and I really need to sleep...

[Lord Loss]

Will we be getting more XP in the game. If not, I will modify my character accordingly.

- Thanks in advance.

[Kensen]

In the playtest, I may award some XP, but you may change your character options between scenarios more freely than in a normal campaign anyway so that you can try different options.

You cannot take a perk more than once unless it's the kind of perk where you have to pick a weapon type. Proficiency, Expertise, Mastery and Throwing can thus be taken more than once, but their effects don't stack as they apply to different weapons.

I may add advanced and master versions for perks like Speed, Dodge and Toughness later.

Oh by the way, the base speed for goblins is 5. (6 if you have the Speed perk.)

EDIT: In the first scenario, you'll face a group of goblin knife fighters (two knives), goblin grunts (club and shield) and goblin spearmen (spear). I'll build them with 12 xp and 10 beads, so they'll be slightly weaker than your characters. They worship a minor god of murder and cannibalism, Kaljuk, and they're not welcome in Gobberheim. Show them no mercy. :smallbiggrin: Their number will be equal to your. The battle grid will probably be featureless as the purpose is to test the basic mechanics.

[curtis]

Stask, Goblin Spearman

Attack stats
Speed: 5 squares
Range: 1-2
Accuracy: -10%/0%/15%/25% (10% Expertise, 5% Mastery, 10% Battle Focus, -25% at range 1)
Damage: 1d8+4 (+2 Bronze tip, +2 Two-handed), 15% Critical Rate (10% Default, 5% Mastery), 1 Armour Piercing

Defense stats
Defense: 15% (5% Dodge, 10% Spear)
Armor: 1
Health: 20

Equipment: Bronze-tipped spear, Soft leather armour, Pouch, 3 Beads

Encumberance: 9

Perks: Proficiency (Spear), Expertise (Spear), Mastery (Spear), Dodge, Battle Focus (Blood 1: +10% accuracy), Barrage (No move, Attack: If you hit an opponent by a 25% margin, roll damage twice. If you hit an opponent by a 50% margin, roll damage three times. Each damage roll counts as a separate attack)

Can Battle Focus and Barrage work together?

[Kensen]

curtis: Yes, you can use Battle Focus and Barrage together. All modifiers from perks stack. The only limitation is that you can only use one Attack perk per round. Since Battle Focus is not an Attack perk, you can activate it any round you have more than one point of health left.

Anyway, I updated the post about weapons with more info on unarmed attacks and hammers! I also added a new perk, Knockout, that can be used with blunt attacks, i.e. unarmed and hammer attacks.

[Kensen]

A few words on movement and terrain: (The terrain rules will be used in later playtest scenarios.)

Terrain affects two things: stealth and movement. It's easier to remain unseen in a dense forest, but moving is much slower because there are trees and branches and roots to hinder your movement. Your size also determines how easy it is to move and stay hidden in terrain types other than mostly featureless, flat terrain.

For goblins, the following rules apply:

In sparse forest, your first square of movement costs an extra square to move into. In other words, your speed is effectively reduced by one if any of the squares you enter are sparse forest.

In dense forest, each square of movement costs and extra square. In other words, your speed is effectively halved.

Bushes similarly halve movement.

A thicket or any other particularly dense growth of vegetation blocks movement. Smaller creatures (such as the black arrow) may be able move into thicket squares.

The Forestwalk perk reduces your size by one for the purpose of how terrain affects your movement. Sparse forest no longer affects your movement, and dense forest only reduces your speed by one, and so forth.

Walls and any large, solid objects may block line of sight altogether. If you cannot trace a line from the center of your square to the center of your target's square, the target is effectively hidden and you cannot make a ranged attack against it. Other than that, there are no cover or concealment rules. You either can see a creature and you're fully capable of attacking it, or you cannot see it and cannot attack.

More about terrain and stealth later. :smallsmile:

[Cieyrin]

I'll throw together a character by tomorrow. Long weekend has been long and I'm suffering a bit from a case of the Mondays that I don't have the focus to analyze atm.

Till tomorrow, when I'll have hopefully normalized a bit.

EDIT: Normalization complete!

So, analysis! I have some questions mostly relating to equipment that I'd like cleared up a bit before I get too far into designing my gobbo, though I have a pretty good idea of what I'll produce. They are as follows:

What kind of metal are the metal hammers made of? Do hammers still get the damage bonus from material, since they don't get armor piercing?
Is fire hardening required to get the sharpened wood material property for weapons?
What is the difference between the longbow and the composite bow? What's is the h in the crafting code for the composite bow? Hornworking?
Do arrow heads only change damage and armor piercing? Does fletching only change range?
What is the effect of containers? How much does the pouch carry? How many arrows does a quiver hold?

Finally, I had a look at the submitted characters, so I had an idea of what to go after, so duplicates aren't made so we can cover as much as possible. Some errors have occurred, though they're mostly mathematical in nature and are probably oversights. They are as follows:

Preya: You have 4 XP left, so you can get another perk, perhaps Knife Proficiency, since you're not currently proficient with the one you have. You also have 1 bead left, just FYI.
Figgle: You have 6 XP left and you also lack Knife Proficiency for your knife. You're also a bit encumbered, so your Speed should be 5 and your defense should be -5%, as noted in this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8087842&postcount=24). You also have 1 bead left.
Ton: You're 4 XP over, so adjustments of your load out need to be made. You also have 39 beads left to spend, which could go to upgrading your axe from flint to bronze, perhaps.
Stask: Your only error is you should have 3 beads left, not 4. My guess is you forgot to buy the binding for your spear, which costs 1 bead and weighs an insignificant amount.

Since it's come up in the playtest characters, what does being nonproficient in a weapon do? The weapon proficiency perks say they let you fight without penalty with that weapon, so I assume trying to fend creatures off with a knife you're not proficient in is probably Bad News Bears. I'm assuming probably -5 to 10% accuracy, maybe -1 damage and a range penalty with the bows.

So, ending updated post for now while I ponder what to do for my character so we can get this show on the road.

[curtis]

Stask: Your only error is you should have 3 beads left, not 4. My guess is you forgot to buy the binding for your spear, which costs 1 bead and weighs an insignificant amount.

I changed it, cheers.

[Cieyrin]

Another thing of note is the Equipment tables are a little difficult to read, as I don't seem to have permissions to adjust the margins to read entries. Copypastaing the info out isn't that fun, either...

[Kensen]

I'll throw together a character by tomorrow. Long weekend has been long and I'm suffering a bit from a case of the Mondays that I don't have the focus to analyze atm.

Till tomorrow, when I'll have hopefully normalized a bit.

EDIT: Normalization complete!

So, analysis! I have some questions mostly relating to equipment that I'd like cleared up a bit before I get too far into designing my gobbo, though I have a pretty good idea of what I'll produce. They are as follows:

Excellent, this is just the kind of questions & input I need to improve the rules. :smallsmile: Basically, every time you guys have to ask me something, it helps me pinpoint the weak points in the rules. So if anything is unclear, no matter how insignificant it may seem, please do ask.

The metal for hammers is not specified because deforming upon impact is slightly less of a problem for hammers than it is for sharp objects. Similarly, you don't need flint to make a stone hammer, any relatively hard and not too brittle material will do. You can assume the business end of a metal hammer is made of lead, bronze or low-quality iron. A wooden club has no damage modifier while a metal hammer gets +2 on damage. There is no AP for blunt attacks, but all blunt damage negated by armor still counts towards the damage total for determining if the target is knocked unconscious.

Fire hardening is required for wooden spears, sort of. But it is assumed that all goblins have access to fire, so it isn't much of an issue.... I guess.

Composite bow is smaller in size --> smaller encumberance value. It also stores more energy in its limbs -> +2 damage.

The h in the crafting code is a typo I think (I'll have a look soon), it should be w, b and bm for wood, bone and bow making. Bone working covers both bone and horn.

Arrow heads only change damage and AP. Fletching only changes range, yes. (And possibly accuracy as well if you use feathers from some unusual bird-like creatures.)

The rules about containers are still quite incomplete. A pouch carries items of up to 2 encumberance points, but only small, round-ish items. The use of common sense is advised (as this isn't D&D :smallbiggrin:).

A quiver carries let's say twenty arrows.


You're also a bit encumbered, so your Speed should be 5 and your defense should be -5%, (snip)

I recommend calculating two encumberance values: combat gear and total. Hmmm whenever I have time for making a character sheet, I'll reserve some room for that so that you don't always have to calculate the values on the fly if your encumberance changes.

It may be a bit confusing that some items are sold in pieces. I'll try to think of a better way to present the information. Maybe a separate table for fully assembled weapons.

Nonproficiency is just a flat -25% on accuracy. Also, you cannot use any perks like dual wielding with a weapon you're not proficient with. A range penalty on bows would probably be realistic, but I try to keep rules that you're not expected to use a lot relatively simple.

[Cieyrin]

Roger roger, will do. I'm in the process of making me a gobbo, though I'm weighing the options of Defender Gobbo vs. Charger Gobbo. Maybe I'll just make both and see who comes out more awesome and play the second one in a later scenario, slightly tweaked from what I learn the first time around. :smallwink:

EDIT: Oh, and I solved my issue with the equipment list by downloading it. Guess I'm still a bit weathered from the weekend but oh wells.

[Kensen]

I adjusted the cells. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Cieyrin]

Here we go, Gobbo complete!

Cerag the Crazed
Description: Cerag has never been known for his common sense, rushing in when those with steadier heads would hold back. This single-mindedness is what has earned him his monicker and may be the death of him yet.

Attack stats
Speed: 6 squares (Bold Stride)
Range: 1-2 (spear)
Accuracy: -15%/+10% (10% Expertise, -25% at range 1)
Damage: 1d8+4 (+2 Bronze, +2 Two-Handed) (armor piercing +1, Brutal Attack, Momentum)

Defense stats
Defense: melee +10%, ranged +0%
Armor: 2
Health: 20

Equipment: Crimson Needle (Bronze Spear) [Haft (1/5), Bronze Tip (50/2), Binding (1/-) = (52/7)], Hard Leather (25/8), 3 beads.

Encumbrance: 7+8=15 (Unencumbered[Endurance]).

Perks: Quick Reflexes (+25% Initiative)(B/4), Endurance (+5 Carrying Capacity)(B/4), Speed (+1 Speed)(B/4), Spear Proficiency (B/4), Spear Expertise (+10% Accuracy)(A/6), Bold Stride (Ignore melee threat when moving towards a foe)(A/6), Momentum (Advance 3: +2 damage on melee or thrown attacks)(A/6), Brutal Attack (Blood 1: +2 damage on melee or thrown attacks)(A/6).

[Kensen]

Ok, it's time for Playtest Scenario 1! We'll get this thing started properly only after Easter since I probably won't have internet access during the holidays.

Here's the grid. (http://www.editgrid.com/user/kensen/Kill_the_servants_of_Kaljuk!)

Here's the IC thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8190340)

[Lord Loss]

Woo Hoo! Will we start a post in the Ongoing Games thread, then?

[Kensen]

Yes you may. :smallbiggrin:

Roll init and if your result is higher than that of the evil gobbos, you can move (and attack if there are enemies within your range).

[Cieyrin]

3. If the result of the roll is above the target value, make a damage roll using the die determined by the weapon type. Add any modifiers and subtract your opponent's armor value, if any. If the result is equal to or below one tenth of the target value, it is a critical hit and deals double damage and ignores armor.


Looks like you didn't change this yet from how you previously determined criticals. Speaking of, how will that work now, as taking 10% of the target value, which gets higher as the defender gets better at defending itself, doesn't exactly work. Being able to defend yourself better shouldn't make you more open to critical hits.

Speaking of crits, how does Weapon Mastery and Critical Stab work exactly? If you had both, would you get +8% Crit? Color me just a tad confuseled...:smallconfused:

[Kensen]

Yes, I should change that. I liked the idea of the critical chance scaling with the chance of hitting the opponent, but now that I've been thinking about it more, I realized that having to calculate the crit chance each time you attack isn't a good idea. So I'm going to change that but I'm not sure how.

Maybe there should just be a base chance of 5% that doesn't scale but it can be increased with perks like Mastery, Critical Stab and Exploit Weakness.

Anyway, in the first scenario we'll still use the scaling crit chance. It's one tenth of your chance to hit (usually 5% or more) plus any bonuses from perks.

[Cieyrin]

Yes, I should change that. I liked the idea of the critical chance scaling with the chance of hitting the opponent, but now that I've been thinking about it more, I realized that having to calculate the crit chance each time you attack isn't a good idea. So I'm going to change that but I'm not sure how.

Maybe there should just be a base chance of 5% that doesn't scale but it can be increased with perks like Mastery, Critical Stab and Exploit Weakness.

Anyway, in the first scenario we'll still use the scaling crit chance. It's one tenth of your chance to hit (usually 5% or more) plus any bonuses from perks.

So, for the playtest's purposes, the chance to hit is derived from the remainder of the percent to hit, 10% of that, and then directly add any additional perks to that crit percent? Let me illustrate in an example what I'm gathering here:

Gobbo #1 has Expertise with his Spear, as well as Brutal Attack, and attacks Gobbo #2, whose using a Knife. Gobbo #1 has +10% accuracy and Gobbo #2 doesn't have any defensive increasers, so Gobbo #1 has a 60% to hit, meaning he has a 6% chance to critically hit. Gobbo #1 expends 1 Blood to activate Brutal Attack for extra damage. His attack ranges are as follows:

1-39 miss
40-94 hit
95-100 critical hit

Gobbo #2 is a master knife fighter and doesn't take kindly to Gobbo #1 trying to chop and/or stab him, so he steps inside Gobbo #1's reach and into his space and goes for the kidneys. He has +15% to hit from Knife Mastery and +11% to his crit range. Gobbo #1 has +10% defense from his spear, so Gobbo #2 has a 55% chance to hit, 10% of which is 5.5%+11%= 16.5% crit or a flat 16% crit, more or less. His attack ranges look like this:

1-44 miss
45-83 hit
84-100 critical hit

Is this what you intended or am I failing to understand again? Also, what happens if you go over 100% on the hit, like I just did in the Playtest thread, as I assume that's definitely a critical.

[Kensen]

Ah, there's something I forgot to mention. You score critical hits only if the unmodified roll is within the crit% (cf. "natural 20" in D&D). The attack ranges below look correct if we're talking about unmodified rolls. What's problematic with the die roller is that if you're using a modifier, you cannot see the unmodified result that determines whether a hit is critical or not.

There is room for improvement both in terms of wording and the mechanics themselves. I'll simplify and clarify the rules on critical hits for the second playtest scenario.

Anyway, your attack in the playtest thread was definitely a crit, and the goblin is very much dead. :smallbiggrin:

[Kensen]

Clawon (size: 5)

[moved to the master table]

[Cieyrin]

What's problematic with the die roller is that if you're using a modifier, you cannot see the unmodified result that determines whether a hit is critical or not.

You can, actually. you just need to use [rollv], instead of [roll].

[Kensen]

Ah, alright. Thanks for the tip!

Now something entirely new: creature templates! (Well they're new in Goblins anyway :smalltongue:)

Husk

A husk is a cursed creature that is not truly living nor dead. A husk is identical to the base creature in size and shape, but its flesh and skin look dry, wrinkly and unnaturally dark, its eyes are bloodshot, and a foul stench emanates from it.

Bonus perks: Ferocity. A humanoid creature also gains Proficiency (unarmed), Expertise (unarmed) and Knockout.
Armor: +2

Drain - If the husk uses a melee attack that is not a weapon attack, its attack deals 1 drain damage* if the attack successfully penetrates the victim's armor. If the target is unconscious, it can deal the drain damage without hitting the victim first.

* When the husk deals drain damage, it regains a like number of health points.

No metabolism - A husk is immune to poison. It cannot recover health naturally, only by dealing drain damage.

Loot: Any food, fur, feathers and sinew are corrupted and cannot be used. Bone and horn, however, can be used for crafting.

Husk bone/horn: Sharp weapons made from husk bone or horn deal 1 poison damage. The edges of the wounds caused by such a weapon take on a darker hue and seem to fester easily, but they heal normally. Musical instruments crafted from husk bones have an evil, haunting sound.

[Cieyrin]

Drain got cut off but otherwise, Husks seem to be quite interesting. Evil temples just got that much scarier.

[curtis]

Scary scary. These look like great fun, in an "Oh s*** we're going to die" kind of way.

[Cieyrin]

Another minor nitpick on the Husk, in that you may want to say in Drain that it is healed that Drain damage, as otherwise it's only sorta implied under No Metabolism.

[Kensen]

Giant template

[moved to the master table]

[Cieyrin]

Giants be scary beasties, indeedly. Probably the point but I guess that gives precedence for Big Game Hunter, though.

[Kensen]

For goblin characters, Big Game Hunter is useful against creatures of size categories 5-7 which covers anything from tigers to elephants. Because power level doesn't increase with experience as much as it does in D&D, anything that big is pretty dangerous even if you're well prepared and experienced.

I don't think +10% to accuracy is overpowered. Big monsters are less common than smaller ones, and hitting them isn't usually the problem anyway, it's their armor and health values. And the fact the they hit back and they hit hard. :smallbiggrin:

Buuuut we'll find out about that later, I promise that you'll get to fight something big in a later scenario. :smallwink:

Of course, not all Giant creatures need to be particularly big to be dangerous. Here's a sample creature that uses both templates detailed above:

Dire white hound rotter (size 3)

[moved to the master table]

[Cieyrin]

Hmm, I suppose any Husky critters are probably not available for Animal Companion but grabbing a Giant version could be interesting...

How would Giant work on the Black Arrow or any other poisonous critter, as generally bigger critters generate deadlier poisons to take down their typically larger prey.

EDIT: Another thought occurs to me as I make a new Gobbo for the 2nd Playtest is we could probably use some Shield perks, if nothing but for an Armor Training clone (them Tower Shields are pretty damn heavy @_@). You could also do possibly a Shield Bash perk that does Knockout damage like a hammer or something.

Just a few more thoughts. Take as you will. :smallbiggrin:

[Kensen]

Husks are largely unaware of their unliving.. condition, but they view normal, living creatures with unexplicable resentment. To them, living creatures appear to emit light too intense and bright for their eyes, something that must be extinguished. Although they're nearly as intelligent as their living counterparts, languages sound like gibberish to them and any sounds living creatures make only anger them more. So it's impossible to reason with a husk. They're not evil per se (although evil magic may be the reason they exist in the first place), they just see things differently.

Thus, a "husky" animal companion might be inclined to attack its owner unless he's also a husk.

The Giant template increases the damage die by one step, and I think it should do the same thing for all bonus damage types. Thus, a giant black arrow deals 2d8 poison damage. A Giant version of a creature is naturally more powerful, so I may have to add a Master perk to the Animal lore perk tree that unlocks more powerful options.

The tower shield is supposed to be heavy. :smalltongue: Armor training basically means that you learn to adjust the armor so that the weight is distributed evenly and that you're so used to running and fighting in the armor that it pretty much becomes a second skin. A very heavy shield, on the other hand, will make you clumsy no matter how much time you spend with it. :smallbiggrin: Well, that's how I see it anyway.

I thought about adding a shield bash perk but there were a few problems I ran into. What should the damage die be? If it's too high, there's no point in using hammers anymore because a shield has a better defense rating. If it's too low, you could just pick unarmed proficiency instead. If the shield counts as a weapon, you can use dual wielding perks with it, which would make it a better option than dual wielding two weapons. And finally, losing the defense bonus could be used to balance things out if it seems otherwise too good an option, but I try to avoid circumstancial defense modifiers. (Attack modifiers are ok because you only use them on your own turn.)

Anyway, if you have ideas on how to make it work in a reasonably balanced way, let me know. Meanwhile, it's possible to simulate shield bashing by taking Proficiency (unarmed). :smallsmile:

[Kensen]

I programmed a combat simulator to test how melee combatants fare against each other. The simulator assumes that the combatants get to use their best attack each round and that they basically just stand there and take turns to attack. I haven't implemented Barrage yet, so I could not test Stask, so I used Grindbone and Cerag as test puppets. :smallbiggrin:

Grindbone vs White hound: Grindbone wins 91.5% of the matches.
Grindbone vs Cerag (Cerag doesn't use Brutal attack at all): Grindbone wins 56.9% of the matches.
Grindbone vs Cerag (using Brutal attack each round): Grindbone wins 52.0% of the matches.
Grindbone vs Clawon: Clawon wins 96.4% of the matches.
Taurukk vs Clawon: Taurukk wins 99.9% of the matches.
Taurukk vs Giant clawon: Taurukk still wins 98.5% of the matches.

EDIT: Ok now the simulator also allows the use of Barrage. Interesting results...

Stask using Barrage and Battle Focus each round vs Grindbone: Stask wins 56.4% of the matches
Stask uses Battle Focus only: Stask wins 52.6% of the matches.
Stask uses neither: Stask wins 50.6% of the matches.

I think it's the better critical range that makes the difference.

(removed the +5% crit chance from Mastery): Grindbone wins 55.5% of the matches.

Hmm, I probably need to adjust the crit chance bonus from Mastery a little bit. :smallbiggrin: Barrage may also need some adjustments...

[Cieyrin]

Grindbone vs Cerag (Cerag doesn't use Brutal attack at all): Grindbone wins 56.9% of the matches.
Grindbone vs Cerag (using Brutal attack each round): Grindbone wins 52.0% of the matches.
Grindbone vs Clawon: Clawon wins 96.4% of the matches.
Stask using Barrage and Battle Focus each round vs Grindbone: Stask wins 56.4% of the matches
Stask uses Battle Focus only: Stask wins 52.6% of the matches.
Stask uses neither: Stask wins 50.6% of the matches.

I think it's the better critical range that makes the difference.

(removed the +5% crit chance from Mastery): Grindbone wins 55.5% of the matches.

Hmm, I probably need to adjust the crit chance bonus from Mastery a little bit. :smallbiggrin: Barrage may also need some adjustments...

Heh, Grindbone and Cerag as test dummies amuses me. Interesting data, I must admit, though I'd need to maybe see how the simulator works to see how accurate those numbers are. Not that I doubt your coding prowess but it's just something my engineer sense makes me intimately curious about. :smalltongue:

[curtis]

Wahey, go Stasky-boy!

Out of curiosity, how does Stask cope against a Taurukk? Or Stask and Grindbone together, for that matter?

[Kensen]

The second playtest scenario begins in about a week. I still have some things to do before we can begin. I'll inform you about it here and I'll also send a PM.

[Cieyrin]

The second playtest scenario begins in about a week. I still have some things to do before we can begin. I'll inform you about it here and I'll also send a PM.

Alrighties, sounds like a plan. I'll raptly await the second playtest, then.

[Kensen]

I'm back! I'll post more info on the second scenario sometime soon and I'll also show you the piece of code I used for the combat simulator. I'll send you a PM when I'm ready.

[Kensen]

Oh well, I haven't made as much progress as I wanted to, but here's the piece of code I used for the combat simulator. Feel free to suggest any improvements.

I'll try to get the second scenario started sometime soon.



[stats]
round=0

'grunt
accuracy(1)=0
crit(1)=96
dam(1)=6
dice(1)=1
dambon(1)=2
defense(1)=5
armor(1)=0
health(1)=20
extra(1)=0
bleed(1)=0
barrage(1)=0
blunt(1)=0

accuracy(2)=0
crit(2)=96
dam(2)=6
dice(2)=1
dambon(2)=0
defense(2)=15
armor(2)=0
health(2)=20
extra(2)=0
bleed(2)=0
barrage(2)=0
blunt(2)=1

init(1)=1+100*rnd(1)
init(2)=1+100*rnd(1)
if init(1)>init(2) then att=1: def=2: else att=2: def=1

[attack]
brg=0
attack=int(1+100*rnd(1))
'print "attack roll:"; attack
if attack+accuracy(att)<50+defense(def) then goto [endturn]
if attack>=crit(att) then goto [critdam]

[damage]
damage=int(1+dam(att)*rnd(1)+dambon(att)-armor(def))
if dice(att)=2 then damage=damage+int(1+dam(att)*rnd(1))
'print "Hit!"; damage
if damage<1 then goto [endturn]
goto [trigger]

[critdam]
damage=2*int(1+dam(att)*rnd(1)+dambon(att))
if dice(att)=2 then damage=damage+2*int(1+dam(att)*rnd(1)+dambon(att))
'print "CRIT!"; damage

[trigger]
if damage*2>=health(def) then goto [victory]
health(def)=health(def)-damage
damage=int(1+extra(att)*rnd(1))
health(def)=health(def)-damage
attack=attack-25: brg=brg+1
if barrage(att)=1 and attack+accuracy(att)>=50+defense(def) and brg<3 then goto [damage]

[endturn]
'print att, health(1),health(2),round
health(att)=health(att)-bleed(att)
if att=1 then att=2: else att=1
if def=1 then def=2: else def=1
round=round+1
goto [attack]

[victory]
if att=1 then vic1=vic1+1
if att=2 then vic2=vic2+1
if vic1+vic2<10000 then goto [stats]
print vic1
print vic2
end

EDIT: I haven't implemented "knockout damage" from blunt weapons yet.

[Kensen]

Visibility and mobility moved to the master table.

[Cieyrin]

Code

Procedural code isn't my forte (I'm Object-Oriented :smallbiggrin:) but, from what I see, the only issue I see is with determining the Knockout value, as it seems to get lower as the Gobbos get more hurt. I was under the impression that the Knockout value was static and based off of Max HP, not Current, though I could be wrong, I suppose.

[Kensen]

It's based off of current health, but since it's something you have to calculate each time someone takes damage, a static value may actually be better. It will probably make combat a little less dangerous for the goblins and any monsters with relatively low health values. It may make hammers a little less useful, though.

Well, looks like I have to run some tests with the combat simulator. :smallbiggrin:

[curtis]

Umm... hello? Is anybody still here?

[Kuma Da]

I am. Anyone else?

[Kensen]

Apologies for the long break in updates. My creative energies haven't been flowing sufficiently to write or design new material for the game, but I still intend to continue developing the game.

[curtis]

Okay, I'll just keep lurking :smalltongue:

[Cieyrin]

I'm still up for running Gnawbone Flathead through Playtest Scenario 2, when that pops up and/or providing feedback as it comes forth.:smallwink:

[Kensen]

Good to hear that some of you are still interested in playtesting. :smallsmile: Today I actually made a map for the second playtest scenario.

Anyway, here are some new perks. Unlike the perks you've seen before, these ones are magical/supernatural in nature. Like some of the normal perks, supernatural perks are fuelled by your health points.

[perks moved to the master table]

[Kensen]

Changes in playtest rules for the second scenario:

Critical hit chance is now base chance (5%) + perk bonuses. For example a goblin has Mastery (spear). His critical hit chance is 10%, i.e. he scores a critical hit whenever he rolls 91-100. (I may have to adjust the base chance and perk bonuses later, but let's see how it works with these values.)

The knockout value is also static now. It's always 50% of your full health (round up). This means that only smaller creatures will have to worry about being knocked unconscious. I may lower the knockout values for bigger creatures later.

More importantly, terrain will affect mobility and visibility in the second playtest scenario. (Terrain rules posted earlier in this thread)

[Cieyrin]

Interesting, I'll have to refresh my memory on the rules so i can provide good input but the new perks certainly look intriguing, especially Ignite's damage disregarding armor.

[Kensen]

I've moved a lot of stuff from this thread to the master table (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AjfBKMVc1_KcdC0waTZSLXlYMUFwb2F4dlFrQmdBb Wc&hl=en). All perks are now there (plus some new perks). Some things are still missing, though.

[Cieyrin]

I've moved a lot of stuff from this thread to the master table (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AjfBKMVc1_KcdC0waTZSLXlYMUFwb2F4dlFrQmdBb Wc&hl=en). All perks are now there (plus some new perks). Some things are still missing, though.

Ooo, update is nifty and makes it so much easier to reference without having to jump between multiple posts. I noticed Overhead Chop, which certainly looks interesting, though I think Gnawbone is not as defensive anymore as he was, since spears got toned back a little, it seems.

Getting a good look at the spell perks is also nifty. The Healing spell perk confuzles me a little with the last statement, as I guess it's nifty that they're immune to Drain damage but why are they also immune to Magic Healing? Just having a clause that you can't heal yourself (which is why I assume the former was there) would take care of that fairly easily.

[Kensen]

I'm organizing the spells into "disciplines", each of which has one spell belonging to each of the three tiers. In addition to these spells, there are a few really powerful spells that combine magical energies from two or more disciplines (but I haven't added them to the list yet).

The last statement in the Healing spell is there to prevent any infinite healing abuse when there are two or more characters with the Healing perk. The Healing spell does not make you immune to drain damage, the clause regarding drain damage only means you cannot regain lost health by draining life energy from another creature (i.e. by dealing drain damage). Normally, whenever you deal drain damage, you gain a like number of health points.

[curtis]

I may be missing something here, but what's Aura?

[Kensen]

It's a new keyword (the keywords are now explained below the perks table). Basically, Aura 1 means that the spell affects all adjacent creatures. Aura 3 means it affects all creatures within 3 squares of you.

[Cieyrin]

The last statement in the Healing spell is there to prevent any infinite healing abuse when there are two or more characters with the Healing perk. The Healing spell does not make you immune to drain damage, the clause regarding drain damage only means you cannot regain lost health by draining life energy from another creature (i.e. by dealing drain damage). Normally, whenever you deal drain damage, you gain a like number of health points.

It's only really abusive if they have the time sit there and feel each other up for a minute or 2, which isn't exactly effective in-combat healing, really. It's essentially a Healing Sting type effect, so I don't see what the big deal is with having such a limitation. The no drain healing bit is flavorful and makes sense but not being able to magically heal yourself doesn't make a lot of sense, unless it's some kinda Stigmata type deal, the goddess' blessings not working on her chosen healers.

[curtis]

I agree, and it also pigeon-holes people into certain roles, as the healer can't really become a meat-shield as well. It also means that no-one who is likely to take a lot damage can take any healing spells to use if something happens to the healer.

[Cieyrin]

Bumpity bump, for I can't allow a good thing to die, especially when we haven't got to play with any of the spells yet. :smallbiggrin:

[curtis]

Aye. Buuuuuuuuuuuuuump.

[Kensen]

I agree, and it also pigeon-holes people into certain roles, as the healer can't really become a meat-shield as well. It also means that no-one who is likely to take a lot damage can take any healing spells to use if something happens to the healer.

As there are no 1/day powers or such, health is pretty much the only resource the goblins have. If it's possible to begin each combat at full health, all the perks with the Blood keyword become a lot more powerful, and losing health becomes much less of an issue as long as you manage to stay alive. In other words, I'm not so much worried about in-combat healing as I am about out-of-combat healing.

But curtis is right about the healing spell pigeon-holing people into roles (which I've been trying to avoid).

I was on a looong vacation, hence the break in updates. I'll try to make updates more frequently from now on. =)

[Cieyrin]

I was on a looong vacation, hence the break in updates. I'll try to make updates more frequently from now on. =)

Welcome back! I look forward to the second playtest and perhaps testing out a spellcaster when the spell feats are more fleshed out.

[Kensen]

I did some editing in the master table. There's a little bit more info on character creation and advancement. All information about gaining xp is now in the Character tab. All information about encumberance is now in the Equipment tab.

Development plans:

* Flesh out the spell perks.
* Make an easy-to-read table for weapons and other basic equipment. Most players (especially beginners) don't need to know how items are crafted.
* Better (and simpler) rules for stealth and detection, and difficult terrain.

[Cieyrin]

I did some editing in the master table. There's a little bit more info on character creation and advancement. All information about gaining XP is now in the Character tab. All information about encumbrance is now in the Equipment tab.

Looks good so far. I like the character creation tiers you put in, though I wonder about Spells being so far up the list before becoming accessible. I suppose it may be a dint of training but should it really be that high up?


* Flesh out the spell perks.

Yes, please! :smallbiggrin:


* Make an easy-to-read table for weapons and other basic equipment. Most players (especially beginners) don't need to know how items are crafted.

I suppose this is true but it's not that hard, honestly. Could be just me, though, and having some pre-built items may be useful for n00bs.


* Better (and simpler) rules for stealth and detection, and difficult terrain.

That remains to be seen yet, as we should get to playtesting to see the effects.

[Kensen]

Looks good so far. I like the character creation tiers you put in, though I wonder about Spells being so far up the list before becoming accessible. I suppose it may be a dint of training but should it really be that high up?

Maybe, maybe not. I may change my mind about it later. My idea of the world the game is set in is that while magic exists basically everywhere, it's generally rather low-key compared to that of D&D. The boundary between natural and supernatural is somewhat blurred, but few beings are powerful enough to use magic in its purest form, as spells.

Of course, I might add a note for game masters who want to run high-magic games that says they can ignore the max tier limits.


I suppose this is true but it's not that hard, honestly. Could be just me, though, and having some pre-built items may be useful for n00bs.

It's not like it's insurmountably difficult to figure out the cost and encumberance values for the items, but it's bad design to have the player do the math if you can do it for them. Sometimes when you buy Ikea furniture, you wish that you didn't have to assemble them yourself even though you know you can do it. :smallbiggrin:

I think the best solution would be to have a relatively short list of the most common weapon types and other common items as pre-built items, and to have detailed crafting instructions in subsequent sections, one for each weapon type, shields, armor and so on.


That remains to be seen yet, as we should get to playtesting to see the effects.

Yes, you're right, I haven't tested how the current stealth and terrain rules work in practice. But the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that no in-combat action should be so complex as to require a table you have to use every time you perform the action. The combat rules should be so intuitive that you don't have to stop to think or open a PDF or rule book.

Most message board games fail because people are too lazy or too willing to give up, so I'm trying to make the core rules as simple and easy as possible. Then there are slightly more complex things like crafting and (once I get that far) trap-making and alchemy that reward the players who are willing to invest more time and effort in the game. :smallsmile:

[Cieyrin]

It's not like it's insurmountably difficult to figure out the cost and encumberance values for the items, but it's bad design to have the player do the math if you can do it for them. Sometimes when you buy Ikea furniture, you wish that you didn't have to assemble them yourself even though you know you can do it. :smallbiggrin:

I think the best solution would be to have a relatively short list of the most common weapon types and other common items as pre-built items, and to have detailed crafting instructions in subsequent sections, one for each weapon type, shields, armor and so on.

Fair enough. Having some basic items doesn't hurt any.


Yes, you're right, I haven't tested how the current stealth and terrain rules work in practice. But the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that no in-combat action should be so complex as to require a table you have to use every time you perform the action. The combat rules should be so intuitive that you don't have to stop to think or open a PDF or rule book.

Most message board games fail because people are too lazy or too willing to give up, so I'm trying to make the core rules as simple and easy as possible. Then there are slightly more complex things like crafting and (once I get that far) trap-making and alchemy that reward the players who are willing to invest more time and effort in the game. :smallsmile:

Quite right, actually. Streamlining the system generally keeps things alive and running.

[Kensen]

Some new ideas I have:

* I installed a desktop publishing software and I'm thinking I might lay out the rules text and tables in a format similar to those of WotC and Paizo products. The resulting PDF will be not only more visually appealing but also easier to use because of hyperlinks and more flexible layout options.

* I'm not entirely happy with the spell perks because they replicate things that the mundane perks can already do, and they're a bit too much D&D-like (read: too flashy) to my taste. I might include them as an optional game component, but...

* ...I've been thinking about adding a more bardic/shamanic type of casting, similar to ritual casting in some RPGs. Below is an example of shamanic ritual.

Goblin war dance
The goblins dance to a shamanic drum beat around a bonfire, arousing their warlike instincts and making them feel invulnerable.

Materials: Goblin war drum, bonfire (10 wood units), 1 ration of food / goblin, 1 bottle of distilled spirits / goblin
Time: 1 hour
Effect: Each goblin gains 5 temporary health points that last until the goblin rests. Also, for the duration of the effect, the goblins are treated as having the Ferocity perk.

[Cieyrin]

* I installed a desktop publishing software and I'm thinking I might lay out the rules text and tables in a format similar to those of WotC and Paizo products. The resulting PDF will be not only more visually appealing but also easier to use because of hyperlinks and more flexible layout options.

Would certainly look nice, yes. If you want to go that distance, hey, feel free.


* I'm not entirely happy with the spell perks because they replicate things that the mundane perks can already do, and they're a bit too much D&D-like (read: too flashy) to my taste. I might include them as an optional game component, but...

* ...I've been thinking about adding a more bardic/shamanic type of casting, similar to ritual casting in some RPGs. Below is an example of shamanic ritual.

Goblin war dance
The goblins dance to a shamanic drum beat around a bonfire, arousing their warlike instincts and making them feel invulnerable.

Materials: Goblin war drum, bonfire (10 wood units), 1 ration of food / goblin, 1 bottle of distilled spirits / goblin
Time: 1 hour
Effect: Each goblin gains 5 temporary health points that last until the goblin rests. Also, for the duration of the effect, the goblins are treated as having the Ferocity perk.

You could do both, actually. Rituals are pretty awesome by themselves and should hold the big magics but you can still do the minor stuff or even link the minor stuff to rituals that temporarily grant the quicker stuff.

I like the above ritual and would certainly help if you're going after Tanurakk or something else huge or whatever. It's really a matter of how much you want to invest to get the results you're looking for. I could see either working well, though it'll need fiddling with.

[Kensen]

PDF teaser (https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0BzfBKMVc1_KcZTk5Y2NlY2QtMjQwZS00MzM5L Tg3YjAtZmViZDRlYjc3MWZl&hl=en).

The pages are not quite finished yet. The second and third page have the same content but I've used different layout for each.

[Cieyrin]

PDF teaser (https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0BzfBKMVc1_KcZTk5Y2NlY2QtMjQwZS00MzM5L Tg3YjAtZmViZDRlYjc3MWZl&hl=en).

The pages are not quite finished yet. The second and third page have the same content but I've used different layout for each.

Dealing Damage's Knocked Unconscious sidebar on pg 2 awkwardly divides 'knocked out', btb. Other than that minor nitpick, I prefer page 2's layout to page 3's.

[curtis]

Anybody still here? I mean, I'm happy to keep checking for updates here however long it takes, but if there's no chance of this ever getting finished then I might as well stop...