NPC Challenge Ratings (3.5)

[Drolyt]

Okay a few weeks ago (or maybe it was more or less time, anything that happened more than a week ago might as well have happened during the last ice age for all my brain keeps track of time) there was a thread about creatures whose challenge rating was too low, leading to party wipes etc. Non-player characters came up as the opposite example: challenge rating too high. According to the Dungeon Master's Guide a challenge rating X opponent should be a reasonable challenge for 4 level X characters, expending about 25% of their resources. To this end it says that an NPCs challenge rating is equal to their level. The Dungeon Master's Guide also has you adding 2 to the challenge rating every time you double the number of creatures. So, a party of four monsters that would expend 25% of the parties resources would consist of monsters 4 challenge ratings below the parties level. This suggests that four NPCs, four levels below the PCs level, would expend 25% of the PCs resources. Obviously I don't see that happening.

Okay, now that all that is out of the way, how do you deal with NPC challenge ratings in your campaign?

[Shpadoinkle]

This suggests that four NPCs, four levels below the PCs level, would expend 25% of the PCs resources. Obviously I don't see that happening.

Depends on what levels your talking about. 5th level PCs up against level 1 NPCs? Yeah, they'll steamroll right over that in about a round, if they even notice at all. Level 15 PCs vs. level 11 NPCs? Going to be more of a challenge than it was ten levels ago. Not a huge one, of course, but the NPCs have far more options, abilites, and other resources available now.

The CR system isn't a bad idea, it just assumes way too much about how the PCs and NPCs are going to be played (i.e. that everyone stares straight ahead like they have blinders on and buffs and debuffs are minimal, if done at all. Also, clerics spend time during battles healing).


Okay, now that all that is out of the way, how do you deal with NPC challenge ratings in your campaign?

Honestly, I pretty much just wing it. I figure the CR as the book reccommends it, and then adjust up or down considering what the encounter and the PCs have access to (so a caster whose spells primarily target will saves is going to be a more difficult encounter for a group of four fighters with average at best will saves than it is for a group of four clerics or druids. Personally, I think overcoming a large disadvantage like that should be worth more XP. If the increased difficulty is due to the PCs on stupidity, like if they're getting smeared by enemies behind fortifications with ranged attacks and have no way to retaliate at range, or a player forgets that his character has a cart full of alchemist's fire, so they charge the front instead of circling around or something, I wouldn't consider the CR higher because the extra challenge is self-inflicted.)

[Douglas]

CR for NPCs with PC classes and reasonable optimization, on par with whatever the players are doing, is reasonably accurate. CR for NPCs with NPC classes is utter trash. Supposedly having an NPC class instead of a PC class is worth -1 CR - even if the NPC class is Commoner. A level 20 Commoner with NPC wealth is nowhere near what a CR 19 creature should be.

[Drolyt]

CR for NPCs with PC classes and reasonable optimization, on par with whatever the players are doing, is reasonably accurate. CR for NPCs with NPC classes is utter trash. Supposedly having an NPC class instead of a PC class is worth -1 CR - even if the NPC class is Commoner. A level 20 Commoner with NPC wealth is nowhere near what a CR 19 creature should be.

Really? Because especially given their gear limitations I just don't see NPCs as being as much of a threat as a monster of their CR.

[Lapak]

Indeed. Because of action economy, I'd much sooner believe that 4 (Level - 4) NPCs will eat 20% of the party's resources than believe that 1 (Level + 0) NPC will. The only time CR = Level is accurate is if you're talking about a group of NPCs of equal size to the party, and it's a 50/50 shot as to who will win.

Other than that one situation, NPCs built anything like PCs are some of the most difficult things to get an accurate CR assessment on.

[Drolyt]

Indeed. Because of action economy, I'd much sooner believe that 4 (Level - 4) NPCs will eat 20% of the party's resources than believe that 1 (Level + 0) NPC will. The only time CR = Level is accurate is if you're talking about a group of NPCs of equal size to the party, and it's a 50/50 shot as to who will win.

Other than that one situation, NPCs built anything like PCs are some of the most difficult things to get an accurate CR assessment on.

So am I right in assuming I have to add hoc it? I can't just create a general rule (NPCs actual CR is Level +2, for example)?

[Bibliomancer]

So am I right in assuming I have to add hoc it? I can't just create a general rule (NPCs actual CR is Level +2, for example)?

Probably Level -2, if anything.

Basically, you know your players, and so you should be able to assess what will be a difficult fight or not. Don't be afraid to push them, provided that you have a way out to avoid TPK if things go wrong.

[Drolyt]

Probably Level -2, if anything.

Basically, you know your players, and so you should be able to assess what will be a difficult fight or not. Don't be afraid to push them, provided that you have a way out to avoid TPK if things go wrong.

Yeah, I meant -2.