Helm of Opposite Alignment - my players trust me too much

[ChrisFortyTwo]

I'm spoilering the first part because it is a spoiler for a published adventure. The short story is, my party got a Helm of Opposite Alignment


So, I ran the "Curse of the Demonweb" module for my players (~6th level), and they obtained a Helm of Opposite Alignment. I thought about removing it, but it was in a trapped chest, and they had no rogue.


Well, they ended up getting it, and just to give them a hint that it was magical, a 2nd level NG Cleric of Heironeous cohort said "ooh, that's pretty". Now, before this point, they all agreed that any magical items would be identified BEFORE being put on. Then, the (tends to be chaos) player who the cohort woks with said "I grab it and put it on him." The other party members said "Wait, what?", and I responded with "Are you sure?" (the classic DM line). She said "yes", I said "ok", and the cleric became Neutral Evil. They went back to town, and the cleric was told to take the stuff and get it identified. He lied to the party, telling them that the Helm is a +1 helm. Then he asked for an 200 gp beyond the price for the identification (the party trusted that he wouldn't lie about the price).

There's a paladin of Pelor in the party, who has not cast detect evil on him yet, and he's supposed to be training another party member in the ways of Heironeous. The party likes him, and he can probably abuse their trust for a while before being caught. What should I do with this NPC? Does he lose his spellcasting, or does he change deities (I'm using the PHB Greyhawk Pantheon - I was thinking of having him switch to Boccob)? How will this affect his training the other player?

I'm kind of at a loss here.

[Flickerdart]

He would need to switch deities to continue receiving spells, yes. His interests would also quickly diverge from the party's. If the opposed alignment makes the player's Leadership score too low to have the cohort, the cohort will leave.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Worse, if he knows what the helm does, it might be within character for him to give it to some of the other party members (especially the Paladin, as he is now a cohort following a man completely contrary to his beliefs, and, if he was close to him at all, might want to show him the "new light," so to speak).

[faceroll]

Have him worship Vecna instead, so he can put ranks in bluff to continue lying to the party. You are having him make bluff checks when he lies to the party, yeah? I would also recommend rolling for your players' sense motive, so as not to give anything away.

[edit]
Huh, Vecna doesn't have a trickery domain. Have him worship someone with the trickery domain.

[Tyndmyr]

Worse, if he knows what the helm does, it might be within character for him to give it to some of the other party members (especially the Paladin, as he is now a cohort following a man completely contrary to his beliefs, and, if he was close to him at all, might want to show him the "new light," so to speak).

This. Which actually may solve your diverging party interests, albeit with a change in party beliefs.

Im actually having this happen in a current campaign, with the deck of many things. They keep drawing the card that changes alignment, so the characters are under the impression that that's what it does. Yay for the missionaries with the cards.

[ChrisFortyTwo]

Worse, if he knows what the helm does, it might be within character for him to give it to some of the other party members (especially the Paladin, as he is now a cohort following a man completely contrary to his beliefs, and, if he was close to him at all, might want to show him the "new light," so to speak).

I believe the Helm of Opposite Alignment is a one-shot item.

[Beorn080]

When a helm of opposite alignment has functioned once, it loses its magical properties.

From the SRD. However, the cohort may look up an evil god and see about getting a few made. Especially for the really evil gods, snagging a paladin would be worth the item.

Honestly, theft in the night, a conversion, and bam, new BBEG. Particularly since the party seems to have a habit of testing things on him.

[faceroll]

I believe the Helm of Opposite Alignment is a one-shot item.

This is correct.


Helm of Opposite Alignment

This metal hat looks like a typical helmet. When placed upon the head, however, its curse immediately takes effect (Will DC 15 negates). On a failed save, the alignment of the wearer is radically altered to an alignment as different as possible from the former alignment—good to evil, chaotic to lawful, neutral to some extreme commitment (LE, LG, CE, or CG). Alteration in alignment is mental as well as moral, and the individual changed by the magic thoroughly enjoys his new outlook. A character who succeeds on his save can continue to wear the helmet without suffering the effect of the curse, but if he takes it off and later puts it on again, another save is required. The curse only works once; that is, a character whose alignment has been changed cannot change it again by donning the helmet a second time.

Only a wish or a miracle can restore former alignment, and the affected individual does not make any attempt to return to the former alignment. (In fact, he views the prospect with horror and avoids it in any way possible.) If a character of a class with an alignment requirement is affected, an atonement spell is needed as well if the curse is to be obliterated. When a helm of opposite alignment has functioned once, it loses its magical properties.

Strong transmutation; CL 12th; Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be 12th level; Price 4,000 gp;Weight 3 lb.

It is only 4k gp, though. The cohort could reasonably get another one within a level or two.

That DC15 will save is rather trivial, though.

[ChrisFortyTwo]

Have him worship Vecna instead, so he can put ranks in bluff to continue lying to the party. You are having him make bluff checks when he lies to the party, yeah? I would also recommend rolling for your players' sense motive, so as not to give anything away.

[edit]
Huh, Vecna doesn't have a trickery domain. Have him worship someone with the trickery domain.

I tend to do a "take 10" style bluff/sense motive on NPC interactions, unless the party is mistrusting or something suspicious is said (in which case, they usually roll Sense Motive anyway). Unfortunately, the cleric has a decent Cha and the PC lied to has a horrible Wis score.

I like this idea. I am surprised Vecna doesn't have the Trickery Domain. Instead she has the Evil domain....lame. I think a minor Rule 0 changes that perfectly.

Trickery and probably Knowledge, I think.

[ZeroNumerous]

I like this idea. I am surprised Vecna doesn't have the Trickery Domain. Instead she has the Evil domain....lame. I think a minor Rule 0 changes that perfectly.

Vecna's a dude. The God of Secrets.

[Starbuck_II]

Vecna's a dude. The God of Secrets.

Vecna's gender can be a secret...

[Lysander]

Actually they shouldn't be Neutral Evil. They should be either Lawful Evil or Chaotic Evil. The helm turns neutral alignments into extremes.

Also, just because they're evil doesn't necessarily mean they're out to betray the party. They might even still value their friendship with the other PCs. However their diverging morality will probably cause major conflicts and maybe enmity to arise in time.

[Heliomance]

Nope, the helm turns true neutral into extremes. Anything else just hops to the other side of the alignment grid.

[kakiseirei]

Don't forget that if the cleric is going continue to cast spells, he is going to need a new (un)holy symbol for the vast majority of them. That should at least give a round of spot checks to notice something is amiss when he casts his next spells.

[Lord Loss]

I'd have the cleric fake his own death, then work for some dark power that hates the party and help lead to their downfall. A harmless way to get ''rid'' of the item, and add a whole new part of the plot to the movie. Also, as previously mentioned, he will need to swap deities (I'd make him a cleric of Nerull or Orcus but that's me). Perhaps throw him into an undead related adventure and watch the Pcs wail...

[Cisturn]

so would a character with the saint template then immediately lose the template if she were to put on the helm?

Oh now that i;m thinking about i should homebrew a saint for an evil religion of some kind.

[Xenogears]

A) Cleric of Heironeous suddenly turning evil? Clearly he should switch to Hextor now.
B) I like the idea of him becoming the BBEG. It is a nice way to showcase how the players actions change the story and affect the world at large.

[HunterOfJello]

The cleric will need to seek out a new god to get back his spellcasting abilities. If the cleric was NG and worshipped Heironeous then seeking to become a cleric Heironeous's sworn enemy Hextor might make the most sense.


I'd be fun to have that cleric seek out other powerful items or spells to corrupt each of the party members one at a time to pull them onto the side of evil.

[TheCountAlucard]

Just like the Powerthirst 2 commercial says, "If god gives you lemons, you FIND A NEW GOD."

[elonin]

I've seen some dm's just wait for pc's to make sense motive checks. Keep in mind that getting alignment from sense motive is an epic check.

In 2nd edition Dieties and Demigods there was an idea in which 0-3 level spells come from the cleric himself instead of being channeled by the deity. Or just rule for a short time (till he hooks up with a new god) that he's getting his spells from the "worshiping a philosophy" mode.

[Dr Bwaa]

Just like the Powerthirst 2 commercial says, "If god gives you lemons, you FIND A NEW GOD."

This. :smallbiggrin:

Also, this is a great situation. Rarely do players give you such great material to work with (okay fine, it happens all the time). Make sure they eventually find out that it was they who broke the nice cleric, though =P

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Semi-tangent: Suppose a party acquired and properly identified a Helm of Opposite Alignment, but they couldn't think of a use for it. Then they encounter the (sufficiently evil) BBEG or the Dragon and subdue him instead of killing him. Couldn't they don and undon the helm repeatedly (until the villain fails the save that is) as a discount programmed amnesia?

[Greenish]

Semi-tangent: Suppose a party acquired and properly identified a Helm of Opposite Alignment, but they couldn't think of a use for it. Then they encounter the (sufficiently evil) BBEG or the Dragon and subdue him instead of killing him. Couldn't they don and undon the helm repeatedly (until the villain fails the save that is) as a discount programmed amnesia?He wouldn't forget anything, but yeah. Even easier would be to have a werebear bite him.
Or just rule for a short time (till he hooks up with a new god) that he's getting his spells from the "worshiping a philosophy" mode.He could just worship the ideal of being an evil bastard and skip the "looking for god" part.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Also remember that the rules aren't exactly clear on what happens to the spells he's already got prepared IIRC. You could rule that, while he can't gain any new spells until he finds a new god, or decides to worship a philosophy, he still has the spells he had prepared when his alignment shifted. That could at least buy a little time.

[unre9istered]

A saint turned evil would lose the exalted feats required to gain the template with (by RAW) no option to replace them with other feats. Oddly enough, there is nothing in the Saint template that says that it goes away under those circumstances... Thought with a +1 to will saves from the bonus to Wisdom and a +4 to saves from evil sources due to the protective aura (may not apply by RAW actually), failing the will save is a bit less likely. Personally, if this happened to me, I'd probably hand the character sheet to the DM and roll a new character. Don't think I'd be able to roleplay a character under these circumstances.

Also, a cleric specifically loses all class features by acting against is deity's code of conduct or designs (acting contrary to a deity's alignment is specifically outlined as a cause of such a loss). I can't find anything that allows a cleric to switch deities.

[Glimbur]

He wouldn't forget anything, but yeah. Even easier would be to have a werebear bite him.

Werebear would take some time to kick in. It is hilarious though... imagine a kingdom that requires all commoners to be bitten by were-bears to a) make them LG and b) make them much more durable and powerful. Just don't be a PC from that kingdom.

[Greenish]

Werebear would take some time to kick in. It is hilarious though... imagine a kingdom that requires all commoners to be bitten by were-bears to a) make them LG and b) make them much more durable and powerful. Just don't be a PC from that kingdom.If I ever DM and/or create a setting, a werebear crusade will surely figure in.

[unre9istered]

Except lycanthropy is a disease and it's an evil act to spread disease. So werebears shouldn't be able to deliberately spread their disease.

[Jack_Simth]

Except lycanthropy is a disease and it's an evil act to spread disease. So werebears shouldn't be able to deliberately spread their disease.

Ah, but they're LAWFUL good. While a LG ruler might not, of himself, make that ruling... if they're ordered to follow through on a program that doesn't kill people (have a cleric on-hand at the biting station, of course, in case anyone drops unconscious), but instead makes them better citizens with a longer life expectancy? I can totally see that happening. Whahahahaha.... works the other way too, but CE's and LE's need less justification.

[unre9istered]

Lawful Good characters don't blindly follow evil laws. Evil in the cause of greater good is still evil.

[Greenish]

Except lycanthropy is a disease and it's an evil act to spread disease. So werebears shouldn't be able to deliberately spread their disease.As Book of Exalted Deeds has demonstrated, you can call the disease something else and it's no longer evil. :smalltongue:

[Falconer]

The cleric will need to seek out a new god to get back his spellcasting abilities. If the cleric was NG and worshipped Heironeous then seeking to become a cleric Heironeous's sworn enemy Hextor might make the most sense.


Indeed, this makes a lot of sense. The way the cleric sees things, it was Hieroneous who abandoned him, not the other way round. And what better way to show him who's boss than to turn to the worship of his enemy, Hextor? It seems like a good (or evil) sort of reaction.

[unre9istered]

As Book of Exalted Deeds has demonstrated, you can call the disease something else and it's no longer evil. :smalltongue:

True but if you make it an Affliction, then non-evil people couldn't gain the benefits of it. Kind of an interesting idea in itself: a nation whose champions are former villains who are now good as well as statistically improved by an affliction.

[Greenish]

True but if you make it an Affliction, then non-evil people couldn't gain the benefits of it. Kind of an interesting idea in itself: a nation whose champions are former villains who are now good as well as statistically improved by an affliction.That would be interesting to play, if you could convince everyone to be LG. You'd probably want to adjust their ECL too, though…

[waterpenguin43]

Iuz works for this sort of thing. If you're fortunate enough to have a copy of Complete Divine, you might know he's CE and enjoys impersonating good gods to make clerics do evil things and grant them their powers instead.
However, I have not read about Greyhawk, so Iuz might not be in the pantheon.

[Beorn080]

As our beloved ranger's favorite octogenarian pointed out, everyone expects the leader of the paladins to be lawful good, and never bothers checking it.

Simply have him start a werebear paladin guild, and require all new recruits to be afflicted. This also gives the paladin's a nonlethal way to end the threats of the "always" evil crowd. Of course, if you ever start losing, you could announce that evil has started creeping in, and require everyone to get a bite, with the paladin using lay on hands to cure the damage afterwards, couple of weeks to a few months, you now have an army of werebears. Of course, the proper ending to that is to reveal the leader to be a werelich or some other were hideously evil thing.

[magic9mushroom]

Please don't bring up the Book of Exalted Deeds, the book which attempts to impose modern morality on D&D yet thinks forcible conversion to your point of view is a good thing (Sanctify the Wicked).

[Jack_Simth]

Lawful Good characters don't blindly follow evil laws. Evil in the cause of greater good is still evil.
Possibly - but here, also, you're starting to get in to an ethics debate. Are we looking at a rights-based ethos, an effect-based ethos, or an intent-based ethos?

Under a rights-based ethos (version A - also known as a means-based ethos), you're forcing your will (or the king's, if you're ordered to do so) on another arbitrarily, which is wrong.

Under a rights-based ethos (version B - also known as a means-based ethos), however, the king bears the sword for a reason; he's allowed to make laws and issue punishments when it's meant for the good of the kingdom - that's his job - even when it is distasteful (LG states still have executions ... which is when you kill someone who can't fight back). The law is that all citizens must be infected with werebear lycanthropy as soon as they are big enough for it to take. The punishment for being of the proper size but not being infected is to be locked up, then bit by a natural werebear and healed repeatedly, until the next full moon comes around and it's clear you've got the infection. It's for the betterment of the kingdom (makes people more resistant to injury, makes them stronger, and makes them less likely to commit heinous crimes), so the king is justified in passing such a law. After all, in the US, people are required to attend school as a child, get their MMR vaccinations, and such. By law.

Under an effect-based ethos (also known as an ends-based ethos), you're making people hardier and less likely to hurt others.

Under an intent-based ethos, the intent is to make people hardier and less likely to hurt others.

So under 2.5 of 3 basic ethos types, it's acceptable behavior when required by the rightful ruler.


Please don't bring up the Book of Exalted Deeds, the book which attempts to impose modern morality on D&D yet thinks forcible conversion to your point of view is a good thing (Sanctify the Wicked).
Sanctify the Wicked is game-mechanics shorthand for taking a madman (evil creature), and locking them up for a year of intensive counseling and psychiatric care (which, because of game-mechanics shorthand, always works if the target failed the initial save).

Yes, the shortcuts taken to make the spell playable leave a bad taste in the mouth of many (it's a completely forced change, no options, and is a change of personality), but the same things that make it distasteful are also what make it playable (kinda hard to RP an entire year of counseling someone without either taking a year at it, or making success/failure rather arbitrary).

Read the flavor - the spell is more like a judge sending someone to a mental institution for a crime, rather than having them executed for the crime.