Dragon Magazine (3.5/4E)

[The Glyphstone]

Dragon Magazine (and to a lesser extent, Dungeon) had for a long time been the joke-end of splatbooks, famous for being wildly unbalance on both ends of the spectrum, most DMs in 3.5 seemed to ban it outright, or ban it with conditional exceptions compared to allowing X set of official splatbooks without question. When 4E hit, Dragon got moved in-house, so to speak...but a number of 4E games I've seen, and one I played in, banned Dragon by default as well. Since I don't have a subscription, I can't evaluate it personally - is the continued Dragon-phobia just residual stigma from 3.5, or is it still as wildly unpredictably unbalanced as it was when Paizo ran it on their own?

[Kurald Galain]

Since I don't have a subscription, I can't evaluate it personally - is the continued Dragon-phobia just residual stigma from 3.5, or is it still as wildly unpredictably unbalanced as it was when Paizo ran it on their own?

It is exactly as wildly unpredictably unbalanced as it was when Paizo ran it...

...which is to say that the vast majority of things in Dragon magazine are either fine or underpowered, and that the most cheesy things are still found in the Player's Handbooks, and that people who ban all Dragon magazine on principle are about on par with people who think Psionics are overpowered.

[Yakk]

It isn't bad, but the material does need a quick look-over it.

More typos make it into the material. More mistakes make it in between the material and DDI. The quality of the material varies more than core material.

If I'm looking for good powers for a character, there are three steps I follow:
1> Glance at the DRAGON material. Most of it will be crap, but some will be top-notch.
2> Do a google on char-op for the class in question, and look at the blue/light blue options.
3> Read over each power with a fine-toothed comb.

Interesting, feats are actually a harder problem, because the "topology" of feats is growing faster than powers (powers, even with the most supported classes, hit ~10 per level -- feats is in the 100s).

[Oracle_Hunter]

Personally, I've been pleased with the Dragon Magazine Rituals more than anything else.

In my games I ban magazine content by default mainly because it is so poorly done. There's already plenty of options in the books, and those receive far more attention from WotC than anything from the magazines.

[lesser_minion]

It is exactly as wildly unpredictably unbalanced as it was when Paizo ran it...

...which is to say that the vast majority of things in Dragon magazine are either fine or underpowered, and that the most cheesy things are still found in the Player's Handbooks, and that people who ban all Dragon magazine on principle are about on par with people who think Psionics are overpowered.

IME of the 3.x Dragons, this has been pretty accurate - seriously, a feat that allows your character to summon or dismiss clothes (self only)? Sure, it could be fun, but it's not breaking your game any time soon.

Oh, and there's a feat that allows you to be Lord Voldemort, minus the telling vulnerability to teenaged spellcasters.

A few things are a bit out there, but a lot of the Dragon material is mostly to do with enhancing a character's flavour in ways that really should have been better represented in other ways.


Oh, and there were some soulknife feats, virtually all of which can be handed out free of charge like candy without breaking the game.

[lightningcat]

Dragon Magazine (and to a lesser extent, Dungeon) had for a long time been the joke-end of splatbooks, famous for being wildly unbalance on both ends of the spectrum, most DMs in 3.5 seemed to ban it outright, or ban it with conditional exceptions compared to allowing X set of official splatbooks without question. When 4E hit, Dragon got moved in-house, so to speak...but a number of 4E games I've seen, and one I played in, banned Dragon by default as well. Since I don't have a subscription, I can't evaluate it personally - is the continued Dragon-phobia just residual stigma from 3.5, or is it still as wildly unpredictably unbalanced as it was when Paizo ran it on their own?

Actually, its a residual stigma from the old TSR days, when a lot of the Dragon stuff was broken. I remember one 2e Dragon class that was a full caster on top of being a rogue and fighter. Some of the stuff is strange, but the 3.x stuff was carefully watched for balance, and I'm sure the 4e stuff is as well.

[Colmarr]

I'm sure the 4e stuff is as well.

Interestingly, there's a riot* occurring on the WotC CharOp forums because the last few Dragon articles have been so underpowered.

If anything, WotC is being overly sensitive to balance in Dragon magazine (unless of course they don't care at all and we've just been un/lucky).

* Ok, so there are no burning cars or looting, but it's gotten to the stage that people are posting complaints about the developers and how CharOppers are the predominant market for Dragon and should be catered to.

[Edge of Dreams]

There are two primary reasons my 4e group does not use Dragon:

1) We have heard horror stories of massively unbalanced stuff there. Not that it's all unbalanced, but when you print 1000 feats, it's not the 995 crappy ones that break your game, it's the 5 OP ones that slipped through.

2) We have a policy that only material in books owned by and shared among the group is allowed. So if someone buys Martial Power 2 and brings it to the group, we can all use MP2, but if no one buys PHB3, then we won't use it. This rule is designed to avoid giving extra power to players who take the time to download every book's pdf or search through dragon when others may not have those resources. It also serves to ensure that any rule or power in use can be looked up during the game WITHOUT a computer or internet connection, cutting down on look-up times and distraction.

[Colmarr]

This rule is designed to avoid giving extra power to players who take the time to download every book's pdf

:smallsigh:

[The Glyphstone]

What if they download and print out a copy of the PDF for each member of the group, or at least one copy to pass around and share during games?

Not meant to be snarky, you guys could add a lot of fun flexibility (apparently) to character options for the price of a couple page printouts from the local library or whatever.

[Kylarra]

There are two primary reasons my 4e group does not use Dragon:

1) We have heard horror stories of massively unbalanced stuff there. Not that it's all unbalanced, but when you print 1000 feats, it's not the 995 crappy ones that break your game, it's the 5 OP ones that slipped through.

2) We have a policy that only material in books owned by and shared among the group is allowed. So if someone buys Martial Power 2 and brings it to the group, we can all use MP2, but if no one buys PHB3, then we won't use it. This rule is designed to avoid giving extra power to players who take the time to download every book's pdf or search through dragon when others may not have those resources. It also serves to ensure that any rule or power in use can be looked up during the game WITHOUT a computer or internet connection, cutting down on look-up times and distraction.Because clearly paying for a DDI subscription and printing out power cards is a bad thing. :smallsigh:

[rayne_dragon]

Personally, I find the stuff in Dragon to be unpredicatably unbalanced, but no more so than the core rulebooks. Take the Adventurer's Vault 1 & 2 for 4e. Some of the magic items in them have the same effect but are 10 levels different. There was also the whole slew of save stacking items that had to be errated (and some of which still aren't). Meanwhile in Dragon you have them publishing an at-will power that does the same as an existing at-will power, only with extra riders and that only targets enemies.

[Kurald Galain]

* Ok, so there are no burning cars or looting, but it's gotten to the stage that people are posting complaints about the developers and how CharOppers are the predominant market for Dragon and should be catered to.
While I'm not surprised that charop would overreact like that, it strikes me that they do have a point: numerous recent Dragon articles do not add any worthwhile crunch (as in, powers that don't do anything new, and that are strictly worse than existing powers), but do not add any worthwhile fluff (or indeed, any fluff) either.

No, not all Dragon articles are like that. But yes, several of them are, and I can understand that this lack of quality upsets some people.

[Edge of Dreams]

What if they download and print out a copy of the PDF for each member of the group, or at least one copy to pass around and share during games?

Not meant to be snarky, you guys could add a lot of fun flexibility (apparently) to character options for the price of a couple page printouts from the local library or whatever.

I think that came up at some point, but there's yet to be a book that we haven't bought that people really wanted.

As for DDI and the character builder, that wasn't out yet when we agreed to this policy back when 4e first came out over a year ago. One of the players does use the character builder and prints out cards, but he abides by our agreement to leave out dragon material.

Given that the character builder is so nice, it would probably be a good idea to encourage all the group to use it and rethink our policies. However, there is still the issue of the DM reviewing material to ensure it isn't b0rken, and the fact that no one in the group actually has a DDI subscription. The one guy who uses the builder obtained the software through a college RPG club; I'm not sure what the deal was with that.

EDIT: Also, a *couple* page print-outs? These books are around 200 pages sometimes! 100 pages * 20 cents/page for printing a color page at the library = $20 bucks. If we're not willing to pay 30 or 40 for the book, 20 isn't that much better.

[Reinboom]

However, there is still the issue of the DM reviewing material to ensure it isn't b0rken

I would like to counter point to this specifically.
When using the character builder, most of the errata is already applied to it. This causes less work for the GM reviewing and assists to balance things out more - without many people realizing it. Things like Cascade of Blades and the Greater Orb of Imposition have both been capped or adjusted, for example.

There is more stuff in general for them, but WotC tends to be decently quick on swinging their nerf bat at items that have gamebreaking potential stand alone. There are, of course, things they have failed to strike at - but these are usually things that are already available to you (for example, the Orb of Imposition class feature power of the Wizard).

For most standard play I would profess, though without any statistical research, that due to the errata being more in-your-face present that for many groups this actually helps balance things out more.


By a further extension, thanks to how easy it is to lookup information from the Compendium given from DDI or from the Character Builder itself even, I would say that DDI will also make it easier on your DM to review material.

[FishAreWet]

As one of the few people that has actually read just about every 3.5 Dragon Magazine(~300-360) cover-to-cover, it is no less balanced than any other splatbook. It has it's share of cheese, but so does Complete Divine. I personally love them, as they give support for things that WotC gave up on. Like Ninjas, Shugenja. And they have support for the less referenced things, like Incarnum and Binding.

The reason I think it's banned, more then balance, is that they're hard to get.

[Innis Cabal]

As one of the few people that has actually read just about every 3.5 Dragon Magazine(~300-360) cover-to-cover

I don't think your in an all to exclusive group there. I think most people who bought Dragon read it cover to cover at least once.

[hamishspence]

I've read every print 3.5 Dragon (310-359) except 319.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Given that the character builder is so nice, it would probably be a good idea to encourage all the group to use it and rethink our policies. However, there is still the issue of the DM reviewing material to ensure it isn't b0rken, and the fact that no one in the group actually has a DDI subscription. The one guy who uses the builder obtained the software through a college RPG club; I'm not sure what the deal was with that.
Pssst. I know a guy who can get you the entire Character Builder and the Monster Builder (with all the monsters from every WotC source) - not just for you, but probably for your whole group*

He's pretty shady, but he's willing to do the whole thing for $10 (http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Subscription.aspx)

*A one month subscription to DDI gives you a certain number of updates per month. If one guy pays $10 for a single month, he can then update several other computers before his subscription expires.

[Oslecamo]

and that people who ban all Dragon magazine on principle are about on par with people who think Psionics are overpowered.

Considering that the only thing stronger than psions are fullcasters ( and even then only at higher levels of optimization, at medium-lower levels of optimization psionics are superior), and very very easy to misread in such a way that they're much stronger than fullcasters, and the erudite is so sick it's basicaly an auto-ban even with people who know well how psionics work, there's plenty of reasons for people to think psionics are overpowered.

[Camelot]

I don't allow Dragon in online games simply because I don't have it. We don't use it in my live games because, well, none of us have it.

However, I have been able to take a look at a few of the issues, particularly the Assassin class and the Revenant race, and they seem to be balanced just as much as anything in the books. Plus, they update the magazines in the rules updates too. So, if I or any of my players were to get a DDI subscription, I would certainly allow it as long as they allowed everyone in the group a glance. Like Edge of Dreams said, I don't want any players to have more options than the others (except with online games, there's really nothing you can do about that), and I too would want to take a look at player and DM options. I really like that Creature Incarnations: Kobolds article.

My philosophy is that if the beach mages publish it, it's okay for play. If they made a video game, they'd choose the options, whether they were balanced or not, and the players would have to deal with that. The beauty of a tabletop game is you don't have to deal with poor designer choices; however, they are smart people, and I'm pretty sure they know how the game works better than I do. If I find that something is not working in my game, I'm able to attend to it and fix the problem, which I wouldn't be able to do in a video game, but initially it's the same idea ruleswise.

[Sinfire Titan]

I ban the magazine out of personal grudge. A few feats get by, but those ones are actually balanced compared to what Paizo puts out in classes and Prestige Classes (seriously, some of the PrCs they printed are even worse than what's in some FR splats on both ends of the spectrum).

[arguskos]

I've read every print 3.5 Dragon (310-359) except 319.
What, you don't like Dark Sun? Fair enough I guess. I personally find it deeply satisfying as a world though. You should pick up #319 and check it out for your self.

[hamishspence]

I didn't manage to get my hands on that issue- and by the time I thought about trying to get it, it couldn't be ordered via Paizo.

I suppose I could look on Ebay for 2nd hand Dragons- but it seems like a lot of trouble to go to.

I prefer print copies, to PDFs.

[Kaiyanwang]

Speaking for 3.5:

There are things in Dragon magazine that are poorly worded and unbalenced ina way or another, but it helped me a lot to fix in game problems and to build interesting things.

items and articles are good too, and even support to old AD&D fluff, even if not outstanding.

Dragon magazine helped me a lot, and resolved FAR more issues than it created.

A lot of PC, NPC, items, artifacts, stories and regions in my game couldn't be created without Dragon.

Yeah, few things are simply not edited.. well, I did like I always do: I analysed case-by-case and banned things wrong, like I do even with core.

[Thurbane]

I think a big part of the perceived problem with Dragon material, is that it exists in a "vacuum". By this, I mean that the splat introduced in Dragon is only weighed against itself and core (for the most part), with little thought given to how it could combine with splat from other sources to have totally unintended and potentially gamebreaking cheese.

Now, that isn't to say that this doesn't happen in totally official WotC splatbooks, but I think Dragon had a (slightly) worse reputation for this kind of thing.

Oh, and Faeire Mysteries Initiate - I think that alone is enough to turn people off Dragon as a source of crunch. I mean, seriously? Even if it's not unbalanced, it's totally assinine. "Oh look, if I dance around with some pixies, I suddenly have more hit points" ...WTF? And I use the word "dance" advisedly, if you get my drift. :smallyuk:

...as for the whole "core is already broken" argument: maybe so, but if a house is already on fire, throwing buckets of gasoline onto it rarely helps, does it? :smallbiggrin:

[DragoonWraith]

I think it largely comes down to the fact that the vast majority of people simply don't have copies of the magazines to use.

[Kaiyanwang]

Oh, and Faeire Mysteries Initiate - I think that alone is enough to turn people off Dragon as a source of crunch. I mean, seriously? Even if it's not unbalanced, it's totally assinine. "Oh look, if I dance around with some pixies, I suddenly have more hit points" ...WTF? And I use the word "dance" advisedly, if you get my drift. :smallyuk:


Well, maybe you make a point: actually I either found things that made me :smallsmile::smallsmile::smallsmile: or made me :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

[Optimystik]

I think the biggest problem is just how much less ubiquitous they've been than the books. You can say "Look up X in Complete Divine" and most people have at least flipped through the book at some point. But how many people know what's in Dragon #287?

There's also the problem of substance - Dragon tends to have a lot of fluff and comparatively little crunch per issue. Now, I'm not denigrating fluff in the least, but it's crunch that sells books. How many people would buy a magazine just for the one or two classes/PrCs and handful of feats in it? Compare that to Dragon Compendium - which consolidated enough crunch from a number of issues to make it a worthwhile read to most gamers.

Now, there is light at the end of the tunnel, I believe, in the form of DDI. Since it gives us access to (almost) all the magazines, now any of us with a subscription can look up whatever obscure issues we like, and whole gaming groups are bound to have at least one person with DDI. So the exposure of Dragon can only spread, especially now that it contains so much of the fluff for the crunch-heavy 4th edition.


I've read every print 3.5 Dragon (310-359) except 319.

He's not kidding, folks. :smalleek:

[Sinfire Titan]

Oh, and Faeire Mysteries Initiate - I think that alone is enough to turn people off Dragon as a source of crunch.

Can't be any worse than Chosen of Whoevertheeffthatdeityisthatletsyouturnhippos (SIC).


Or Lichloved. Or Ravages.

[Thurbane]

Can't be any worse than Chosen of Whoevertheeffthatdeityisthatletsyouturnhippos (SIC).


Or Lichloved. Or Ravages.
You make a good point, but for some reason, FMI rankles me more than any of those...maybe because it gets recommended for a LOT of INT based builds, whereas those others are so stoopid they rarely get recommended for anything.

FMI manages to be idiotic and optimizer bait at the same time.