Debate of Robin

[darkblade]

To prevent this topic from overwhelming the comic recomendation thread I am starting a new thread dedicated to the discusion of the possible Marty Stu or at the minimum unlikable character status of the current Robin, Damien Wayne.

So

He DIDN'T build the car, he corrected a minor thing that was wrong with it. And in EVERY SINGLE ARC in Batman and Robin HE WAS BEATEN UP, CAPTURED OR INCAPACITATED.


And he's constantly shown that he doesn't deserve his giant ego at all.

You both are quite correct. It keeps showing us that he has no reason to have that ego and bad things keep happening to him but unlike a real person or a well written character he does not learn from his mistakes, he makes no progress as a character.

Just because bad stuff happens to him (even then the bad stuff is quickly undone, he got paralyzed in the fight with Jason a few months ago and now he's almost at full strength again and Oracle is still in a wheelchair after almost thirty years) does not make him a Sue. It is his treatment of Alfred, D. Grayson, and pretty much everyone he sees and the fact that he gets away with it, no one calls him on being an egotistical little snot who doesn't know what he is doing and despite all the bad stuff that happens to him he never learns a lesson that puts him into Sue territory.

[Mando Knight]

The original Robin's still the best. Even if Especially since he goes by the Bat-Name now. Beyond Grayson, the only Son of Wayne I'll really accept is the DCAU-only (?) Bat-Clone Terry McGinnis.

[WitchSlayer]

He DOES respect Alfred and Grayson, he just doesn't really show it. He even LIKES Grayson but doesn't show it. You can't expect him to change his ways completely in one or two arcs, he's been developing as a character.

[darkblade]

He DOES respect Alfred and Grayson, he just doesn't really show it. He even LIKES Grayson but doesn't show it. You can't expect him to change his ways completely in one or two arcs, he's been developing as a character.

Where did you get the idea that Damien likes Grayson? How did you get the idea if it hasn't been shown in the comic yet as you just said?

I don't expect him to completely change his way in one or two arcs but I do expect some character development of some sort somewhere in the seven arcs he has been in so far thats not counting his brief apearances outside of the main Batman book and it's event tie-ins.

[leafman]

I haven't read the Batman and Robin comic (I refuse to read a comic where the man under the cowl is not Bruce Wayne :smalltongue:), but I really don't like the idea of Bruce Wayne having a son. It takes some of the trajedy out of Bruce's story. I hope Joker manages to kill Damien like he did Jason Todd, only this time he stays dead :smallamused:.

[darkblade]

I haven't read the Batman and Robin comic (I refuse to read a comic where the man under the cowl is not Bruce Wayne :smalltongue:), but I really don't like the idea of Bruce Wayne having a son. It takes some of the trajedy out of Bruce's story. I hope Joker manages to kill Damien like he did Jason Todd, only this time he stays dead :smallamused:.


As much as I dislike Damien I think you are being terribly harsh both on Grayson and Damien. As a character Damien has a lot of potential and Grayson (I really hate that profanity filter censoring his name) so far has been a pretty good Batman.

Also how does having a biological son from being drugged and raped take away from a tragic backstory more than having three adopted sons and an adopted daughter?

[golentan]

I don't see it, so I hope nobody's linked to it already:

This pretty much sums up what I view robin's purpose in a plot perspective when batman's around. (http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1802#comic) Exaggerated of course, but... Heck, wasn't it the Joker who took to calling him Robin the Boy Hostage?

[Avilan the Grey]

...Yeah... I have not read Batman in years (except for a few specials) but to me Robin has always been pointless. **** I like, mostly because he actually grew up and moved out, so to speak. All other Boy Hostages really annoy me (I don't think they fit the Bat character; dark and mysterious... with a young boy in shorts and a red shirt right next to you. Does not spoil the setup at all... Not).
As for Bruce actually having a son...? Oh Joker is going to enjoy killing that guy!

[The_Question]

...Yeah... I have not read Batman in years (except for a few specials) but to me Robin has always been pointless.
Then you honestly shouldn't be in this thread talking about Robin at all seeing how for years he's been more than a hostage plot device.

[Avilan the Grey]

Then you honestly shouldn't be in this thread talking about Robin at all seeing how for years he's been more than a hostage plot device.

My point is that he (IMHO) does not fit into the Bat mythos. I know a lot of people like the concept (hence other heroes on and off getting their own young sidekicks, like Wolverine spending a lot of time with Jubilee etc) but I have never liked Robin because his costume is all wrong (bright and corny-looking) and that the whole idea of bringing a teenager to fight the most dangerous psychopaths and homicidal maniacs on the planet is... stupid on so many levels.

I know a good writer can get good mileage out of him (although I still think Joker's comment about the "Boy Hostage" is ROFL-worthy). That is not my concern. I am just pointing out that I prefer a hero like Bats to do all field-work alone.

[The_Question]

I am just pointing out that I prefer a hero like Bats to do all field-work alone.
So you like a very small amount of the Batman mythos.

[Avilan the Grey]

So you like a very small amount of the Batman mythos.

That is not what I am saying. I am saying that a hero of Bats type works better alone. I enjoy many stories in which Robin is present.

[WitchSlayer]

Batman only became really popular with the introduction of Robin, if it wasn't for Robin being introduced, a mere year after Batman was created by the way, Batman probably wouldn't have survived to the Silver Age.

[Avilan the Grey]

Batman only became really popular with the introduction of Robin, if it wasn't for Robin being introduced, a mere year after Batman was created by the way, Batman probably wouldn't have survived to the Silver Age.

As I said, I know the concept (and character) is popular. I am not arguing against that. I am just stating why I don't like the character.

[The_Question]

Exactly, Batman's family is one of the more important parts of the Batman books and has been for decades. The video wills he left for Tim and Alfred were heartbreaking.

[darkblade]

That is not what I am saying. I am saying that a hero of Bats type works better alone. I enjoy many stories in which Robin is present.

Batman has never been alone. From the first Golden Age story he at least had Alfred giving him advice, support, medical treatment, and encouragement and Jim Gordon's relucant police support (althought this one comes and goes over the years).

Even on the frontline without Robin he isn't alone. For the sake of argument I'll exclude the Batgirls as well. He has the Brids of Prey, the Outsiders, the Green Arrow and even the Justice League.

One of the quotes that I think best explains Batman and his relation to his many allies is "The more I look at his allies I can't help but see Batman as more of an enterprise than an individual."

[Avilan the Grey]

Batman has never been alone. From the first Golden Age story he at least had Alfred giving him advice, support, medical treatment, and encouragement and Jim Gordon's relucant police support (althought this one comes and goes over the years).

Even on the frontline without Robin he isn't alone. For the sake of argument I'll exclude the Batgirls as well. He has the Brids of Prey, the Outsiders, the Green Arrow and even the Justice League.

Please note I said "Field work". As far as I know, Alfred does not wear spandex and kick ass together with Bruce.
Oracle does not either, and although she is Awesome, I would love her to be cured and go back to be Batgirl (yes she is and will always be my favorite Batgirl. But please make her work alone and not as Bats tag-along).

And there is a difference between Robin and say Green Arrow or Black Canary: They are adults and they are not permanent partners.

[The_Question]

And there is a difference between Robin and say Green Arrow or Black Canary: They are adults and they are not permanent partners.
But here's were they're not: They're all very competent heroes at what they do.

[Coidzor]

Robin

Considering the track record of Robins....

Well, let's just say I don't get attached. (http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1802#comic)

[Avilan the Grey]

But here's were they're not: They're all very competent heroes at what they do.

I'm sorry, are you saying they are NOT very competent heroes? English is not my first language and I have a hard time making sense of this sentence.

[The_Question]

My bad, meant to say "Here's where they are not different" left a word a out, still tired from Sunday's Tournament.

[Avilan the Grey]

My bad, meant to say "Here's where they are not different" left a word a out, still tired from Sunday's Tournament.

Makes much more sense. :smallsmile:

[Tirian]

Heck, wasn't it the Joker who took to calling him Robin the Boy Hostage?

Two-Face.

Also, Tim Drake is the One True Robin. Second place goes to Carrie Kelley. :smalltongue:

[Closet_Skeleton]

Batman has never been alone. From the first Golden Age story he at least had Alfred giving him advice, support, medical treatment, and encouragement and Jim Gordon's relucant police support (althought this one comes and goes over the years).

Not true. Alfred didn't appear in the comics until after Robin did. He's only been with the Wayne family all along in retcons and reimaginings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Pennyworth#Pre-Crisis

Not liking Robin is fine, but trying to claim that a Robin-less Batman is truer to the original intent when at the same time using ideas that came post Robin (Alfred, not using guns) doesn't really make sense after a bit of research.

[Dienekes]

Two-Face.

Also, Tim Drake is the One True Robin. Second place goes to Carrie Kelley. :smalltongue:

Really, I'd take any but Jason.

I'm not particularly a Robin fan, don't dislike him, but most of my favorite bat stories is when Bruce is working alone.

As to the current Damien, I eventually got so annoyed at his character and that bruce wasn't bats that I stopped reading the new stuff. Or at least waiting for a graphic novel.

[Avilan the Grey]

Not true. Alfred didn't appear in the comics until after Robin did. He's only been with the Wayne family all along in retcons and reimaginings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Pennyworth#Pre-Crisis

Not liking Robin is fine, but trying to claim that a Robin-less Batman is truer to the original intent when at the same time using ideas that came post Robin (Alfred, not using guns) doesn't really make sense after a bit of research.

But that is not what I am arguing. The original intent is not my point.
I am just saying that for a dark vigilante type (who on top of that often hides in shadows etc etc), the idea of having a teenage boy dressed in a bright red jacket fighting side by side with can be seen as weird and stupid, unless of course you want the bad guys to shoot the boy instead of you... :smalltongue:

[Tirian]

Really, I'd take any but Jason.

I'm not particularly a Robin fan, don't dislike him, but most of my favorite bat stories is when Bruce is working alone.

As to the current Damien, I eventually got so annoyed at his character and that bruce wasn't bats that I stopped reading the new stuff. Or at least waiting for a graphic novel.

Yeah, I'm not reading now either, but I really don't get the idea of Damien. I mean, Jason was killed (quite literally) because the fans didn't like a Robin that couldn't follow orders and wasn't likable. I certainly am not eager to read another dose of that.

And I agree about liking Batman best when he is working alone, *unless* they are writing him to be half-insane because he doesn't have a partner. But when he's on top of his game, he doesn't need one. (That's why I prefer Tim, because he is the Robin who is most capable of going off and solving his own challenges independently. **** can do that too, of course, but not so much when he was Robin.)

[rakkoon]

unless of course you want the bad guys to shoot the boy instead of you... :smalltongue:

This explains sooo much.

[Oslecamo]

unless of course you want the bad guys to shoot the boy instead of you... :smalltongue:

Oh gods...It's all clear now! Robin is just another part of the mighty Batman-fu Tequnique developed by Wayne! :smallbiggrin:

Also, the main use of sidekicks is for there to be someone the main hero can talk to, and answer his monologues. Batman would start looking insane if he was always talking about his plans to no one, so he gets Robin to hear and answer him.

Same with Super Man and Jimmy Olsen.

[Kislath]

Whatwhatwhat??

Dang, a lot has changed since I had to quit reading comics.

Bruce is gone, maybe dead?
This Damien kid... who is his mother?
Where is Tim?

Good gravy, how did all this happen?

[Avilan the Grey]

Oh gods...It's all clear now! Robin is just another part of the mighty Batman-fu Tequnique developed by Wayne! :smallbiggrin:

Also, the main use of sidekicks is for there to be someone the main hero can talk to, and answer his monologues. Batman would start looking insane if he was always talking about his plans to no one, so he gets Robin to hear and answer him.

Same with Super Man and Jimmy Olsen.

Yes, I know the roles for sidekicks (in no particular order):

1) be the reason for Exposition and Monologues
2) Be a weakness
2.1) Be threatened
2.2) Be hurt
2.3) Be killed (especially if the heroe's origin story is not traumatizing enough already)
3) Show personal growth by proving to be right (on the expense of the hero) about once a year
3.1) Occasionally actually save the hero's life
4) Create "need" for spinoff comic books*
5) Get some teenage romance drama in there

Etc.

Oh and I thought one point about Bats is that we're not exactly sure if he actually is insane already...?

Seriously though I like Robin so much more in Teen Titans than in Batman.

*Sometimes valid, sometimes just corny (see "Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen").

[Avilan the Grey]

Good gravy, how did all this happen?

Another writer who thought he could improve a comic book?
(See also: "Spider Man - One More Day")

[comicshorse]

Posted by Kislath

Bruce is gone, maybe dead?

Yes


This Damien kid... who is his mother?

Talia al Ghul


Where is Tim?

In his own book

[Oslecamo]

Oh and I thought one point about Bats is that we're not exactly sure if he actually is insane already...?


Only poor people are crazy. Rich ones are excentric.

Seriously, Bruce Wayne goes around dressed as a bat to beat up criminals because he enjoys it! It's like cosplaying taken to the extreme! He gets bored at elite parties with several super-models throwing themselves at him, but being in some dark alley terrorrizing lowly bandits? It's pure bliss for him.

This is, if he really wanted to solve Gotham's crime problem he would've bought the police force and used his money to train super cops. Or at least make something about all the miserable conditions in the city. It seems like you can't take two steps whitout tripping into some pool of chemicals that'll transform you into a mad criminal.

Heck, I would've been satisfied if he donated some decent prison cells to the Arkham Asylum. DC world has cells able to hold deities. Would it be too much to ask something that could keep the Joker from escaping every weekend?

This is particulary seen in the World's Best comics, where Bats teams up with Superman, and Bats gets extra annoyed when Supes uses his powers to quickly solve problems or catch petty criminals right in front of Batman.

[Indon]

Yes, I know the roles for sidekicks (in no particular order):

6)Replace the hero.

[Pronounceable]

I am just saying that for a dark vigilante type (who on top of that often hides in shadows etc etc), the idea of having a teenage boy dressed in a bright red jacket fighting side by side with can be seen as weird and stupid
Quoted for JUSTICE! Robin has no place in the terror in the dark that gives nightmares to crooks. OTOH, Bats is sadly so much more than that. There's the greatest detective Batman, superheroic Batman, family man Batman, shark repellant carrying Batman, this Batman, that Batman... Robin clashes very jarringly with that best concept of his, the "real" Bats so to speak. Not that "other" Bats are bad, they're just much less awesome. They still mostly beat pretty much every hero except the wisecrack nerd Spidey, unwornout Wolverine and Darkwing Duck.


unless of course you want the bad guys to shoot the boy instead of you... :smalltongue:
My eyes have been opened to the truth!

EDIT, for ontopic: As for current comics, what little I saw of Damien from one storyline I read from before, I dislike him. Also, it's not Bats if it isn't Bruce under the hood. Even if **** is the only remotely tolerable one, I accept no substitute.

[Mando Knight]

Seriously, Bruce Wayne goes around dressed as a bat to beat up criminals because he enjoys it! It's like cosplaying taken to the extreme! He gets bored at elite parties with several super-models throwing themselves at him, but being in some dark alley terrorrizing lowly bandits? It's pure bliss for him.

Batman: the World's Greatest Cosplayer. Even thinks of himself in-character and everything! :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

[Jayngfet]

Amazingly, I think 80's movie robin is one of the better way's robin has been done: His costume is dark enough to fit in with batman(and a modern update of it would probably be fantastic). He was shown to have his own fighting skills and the ability to beat up criminals long before he was accepted, and had to fight for it even then. He played off Batman so nicely, and was able to throw in the occasional joke that wasn't out of place given he was a college age boy.

[golentan]

Considering the track record of Robins....

Well, let's just say I don't get attached. (http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1802#comic)

Hey, I already linked that.

[Coidzor]

Hey, I already linked that.

Well, I guess it's true then, maddened minds think alike. :smallwink:

[jlvm4]

Quoted for JUSTICE! Robin has no place in the terror in the dark that gives nightmares to crooks.


Actually, that was once the whole point. Back when Tim Drake was taking over the job, it was explained that Batman needs Robin, not necessarily to fight crime or intimidate bad guys, but to provide humanity to the enterprise. Think of Robin as mercy to Batman's justice. Robin is not scary, he's not supposed to be. He's the one that's the support staff. Robin consoles and comforts the scared children Joker's captured, Robin makes sure the hostages get out okay, Robin asks the 'should we really be doing this?' question that pricks the conscience of the darker and deadlier Batman.

So not only was Robin a cypher for the comic's intended audience (kids and young adults), he was their voice as well. Robin is Batman's Jiminy Cricket. Which is why first Jason Todd and then Damien don't work so well. They are not 'good' enough in every sense of the word.

[Oslecamo]

So not only was Robin a cypher for the comic's intended audience (kids and young adults), he was their voice as well. Robin is Batman's Jiminy Cricket. Which is why first Jason Todd and then Damien don't work so well. They are not 'good' enough in every sense of the word.

Now that you mention it, Robin does get a nice girlfriend wich isn't some kind of assassin (unlike Batman), wich does help younger readers identify with him.

I also fondly remember the comic where Robin uses his Batman-fu to beat the crap out of some school bullies that had been driving him nuts. Whitout anyone else seeing of course.

[WitchSlayer]

I'm actually liking Grayson a lot better as Batman than I do Bruce, mostly because Batman books have been average to sub-par for a long while before all this hubbub.

To the above: Damian has developed as a character, ever since he got rescued by Grayson from Professor Pyg (A great, new Batman villain, by the way) he's actually followed Grayson's orders, and doesn't run off to fight crime his own way. As for Alfred, he's always seemed to have a bit of respect for Alfred.

[darkblade]

I'm actually liking Grayson a lot better as Batman than I do Bruce, mostly because Batman books have been average to sub-par for a long while before all this hubbub.

Grayson as Batman has been pretty good despite a lot of issues with Morrison's writing I've had (he is much better suited to more psycholgical tales and Grayson's Batman hasn't had much in that manner.). Probably the best explaination for it would be is that unlike Bucky as Captain America there never was any doubt that Bruce was going to come back from the dead. The last page of the event that "killed" him shows him alive in a prehistoric cave and Red Robin (Tim Drake's new book) has shown us that there are clues left as to where he is. So we know in the end this is meant to be temporary.


To the above: Damian has developed as a character, ever since he got rescued by Grayson from Professor Pyg (A great, new Batman villain, by the way) he's actually followed Grayson's orders, and doesn't run off to fight crime his own way. As for Alfred, he's always seemed to have a bit of respect for Alfred.

He still spends his every waking moment mouthing off to Grayson and other heroes (particularly Stephanie Brown's Batgirl and Donna Troy). While he is slightly better with Alfred he still has a sense that he is better than him just like he does with everyone else. Let that sink in. He thinks he is better than Alfred, a normal elderly man who single handidly manages the upkeep of Wayne Mannor and the Bat Cave while still having time to help with bat tech on occasion and be sarcastic with the various members of the Bat Family.

[WitchSlayer]

He's the son of Batman and Talia Al Ghul.

His Grandfather is R'as Al Ghul

He's been BRED to have an ego.

[Dienekes]

He's the son of Batman and Talia Al Ghul.

His Grandfather is R'as Al Ghul

He's been BRED to have an ego.

Alas, just because an annoying character makes sense in a setting doesn't mean the character is less annoying.

[The_Question]

He's the son of Batman and Talia Al Ghul.

His Grandfather is R'as Al Ghul

He's been BRED to have an ego.
Yeah expecting him to pull a 180 with his upbringing is pretty stupid. For years he was raised to belive he was the best due to his lineage and his skills. And while he still is a egotistical little brat *Who I find very entertaining* he's starting to warm up to everybody including Stephanie and learning humility and that he's not perfect *The recent losses he's suffered and failing to rescue Scarlet hurt him deeply*.

[Avilan the Grey]

So not only was Robin a cypher for the comic's intended audience (kids and young adults), he was their voice as well. Robin is Batman's Jiminy Cricket. Which is why first Jason Todd and then Damien don't work so well. They are not 'good' enough in every sense of the word.

...Funny though that I have always hated the character, and I had no friends that liked him either. He was the lame kid that tagged along with Ultracool Batman.
But then I grew up in the 80ies and as much as I dislike Watchmen and other over-the-top dark and gritty stuff, "my" batman will always be the really dark and scary one.


Now that you mention it, Robin does get a nice girlfriend wich isn't some kind of assassin (unlike Batman), wich does help younger readers identify with him.

Heh... I remember how disappointed I was at the age of 13 or 14 because Dare Devil didn't end up permanently with Electra (And Spidey with Black Cat, for that matter). Why have a normal girlfriend when you can play in bed with well... (insert female badass clad in leather or spandex here).

Oh and why oh WHY did Bats have to go all the way with ms Gul? She was always the second choice!! ms Kyle all the way! Sexier, funnier... more flexible... :smallbiggrin:

[WitchSlayer]

Yeah expecting him to pull a 180 with his upbringing is pretty stupid. For years he was raised to belive he was the best due to his lineage and his skills. And while he still is a egotistical little brat *Who I find very entertaining* he's starting to warm up to everybody including Stephanie and learning humility and that he's not perfect *The recent losses he's suffered and failing to rescue Scarlet hurt him deeply*.

He and Steph are my super shameful OTP.

SUPER SHAMEFUL.

[The_Question]

Don't see why it's shameful, I could actually see those two having a fairly interesting dynamic as a couple. But then again I like both of them.

And if their ever was a character that got some really unfair criticism it's Steph.

[WitchSlayer]

It's shameful in the same way Chris and Thara are shameful.

One is a young boy, the other is an older girl.

In Chris and Thara's case, it's waaaay more awkward due to it being canon, even if Chris appears to be 20ish.

[Avilan the Grey]

It's shameful in the same way Chris and Thara are shameful.

One is a young boy, the other is an older girl.

In Chris and Thara's case, it's waaaay more awkward due to it being canon, even if Chris appears to be 20ish.

Uh? Why is this shameful?

[The_Question]

It's shameful in the same way Chris and Thara are shameful.

One is a young boy, the other is an older girl.

In Chris and Thara's case, it's waaaay more awkward due to it being canon, even if Chris appears to be 20ish.
The Chris/Thara stuff is a bit on the stupid side but that's mainly due to the Flamebird/Nightwing stuff. Would like to see Chris get deaged and hang out with Damian seeing how the two are basically polar opposites.

[darkblade]

A preview for Batman and Robin # 10 is up. (http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2010/03/04/welcome-to-batman-versus-robin/)

http://i48.tinypic.com/2cei8fc.jpg

WTF.

[Jayngfet]

...I, I don't understand. Why is a minor apparently leading a large company? Why isn't he satisfied with a rational, if only barely, explanation?

[Drakyn]

...I, I don't understand. Why is a minor apparently leading a large company? Why isn't he satisfied with a rational, if only barely, explanation?

Because comics.

[WitchSlayer]

Oh Damian. You're such a lovable punk.

->tt<-

[The_Question]

Wouldn't surprise me if this had something to do with Ra's caliming vengance against Tim and everything he loves in Red Robin.