Jirix will be a terrible leader

[Vaarsuvius4181]

Jirix got hit with one chain lighting spell by Vaarsuvius and with one normal attack by O-Chul, and he was dead. Red Cloak however, was hit by chain lighting (and it did more damage to him, it looked like) and was stabbed IN THE FACE and with smite evil but he lived. Jirix dies from a regular attack? To me it seems like giving command to him is a terrible idea.

Just want to know your opinions and thoughts, or correct me if im wrong.

[Watcher]

Shojo was (so we've heard) a great leader, (Azure City didn't fall under him) and he only had NPC levels.

[Water-Smurf]

Contrary to what pops up in stories a lot, you don't necessarily need to be a good fighter or a resilient badass in order to be a good leader. There are plenty of really strong and tough men and women out there (for fictional examples, Wonder Woman and Batman), but being tough doesn't mean one has good leadership skills, or vice versa. (Can you imagine Batman or Wonder Woman trying to run a country?) Leadership skills require that you get people to do what you say in a productive, unified manner. They don't require a black belt.

That's why presidents and monarchs and other rulers have lots of bodyguards.

[Brendan]

the majority of ruling a nation does not contain stabbyness. also, critical hits could have come into play.
although he is lower level, he's got some charisma. that helps.

edit: by the way, I would LOVE for batman to run a country. it would be amazing. I'd vote for him.

[NerfTW]

Jirix got hit with one chain lighting spell by Vaarsuvius and with one normal attack by O-Chul, and he was dead. Red Cloak however, was hit by chain lighting (and it did more damage to him, it looked like) and was stabbed IN THE FACE and with smite evil but he lived. Jirix dies from a regular attack? To me it seems like giving command to him is a terrible idea.

Just want to know your opinions and thoughts, or correct me if im wrong.

I think you have "leader" confused with "fighter". :smallsigh:

[Starscream]

I can't speak for his competence as a leader, but with all the higher level characters leaving, I'm pretty sure he's going to have his hands full.

We still don't know what Team Peregrine is planning, but if they came prepared for an epic level lich, a high level cleric, and a presumably high level mystic theurge, and all they find when they get there is a mid-level cleric? Jirix goes down fast.

[Acero]

how many Presidents do you know who are the strongest people in their country?

[Jallorn]

Contrary to what pops up in stories a lot, you don't necessarily need to be a good fighter or a resilient badass in order to be a good leader. There are plenty of really strong and tough men and women out there (for fictional examples, Wonder Woman and Batman), but being tough doesn't mean one has good leadership skills, or vice versa. (Can you imagine Batman or Wonder Woman trying to run a country?) Leadership skills require that you get people to do what you say in a productive, unified manner. They don't require a black belt.

That's why presidents and monarchs and other rulers have lots of bodyguards.

Batman would rock, he's got more than enough ranks of Knowledge (Manipulation)

[ClockShock]

Just so some is trying to backup the OP's point :smallwink:

Jirix is about to be in charge of a city/nation that certainly has a few enemies. It has allies for sure, but ex-Azurites aren't too happy and the elves seem bothered as well. Also, when Hinjo contacted a lot of nations asking for help, they refused because there was an epic level lich hanging about. That's about to change.

I wouldn't like to assume that there will be no fighting coming up for Gobbotopia, no matter how hard they try to establish a peaceful operation they may need to defend their territory. And that cloister effect will be ending at some point, so scry-and-die tactics could open up.

I'm not saying he'll be a terible leader, but if he's easy to bring down he needs to take this into account and prepare for it.

[Cisturn]

i disagree i think Jirix is surprisingly politically savvy. He even shows some forethought to his actions in 704. I think he'll be a fairly effective of not strong leader. Also I think Jirix will probably be the strongest person around after RC, Xykon, Tsukiko, and MitD leave. SO he may be the only option.

[Deliverance]

...And in the final heat of the trade negotiations, we have Gnaarr the Uncivil, the 14th level Barbarian, representing the United Tribes of Upper Nowhere vs. Lord Teaspoon Baddrinkson, the 9th level aristocrat, representing the Generic Mechantilist Feudalists.

Gnarr is off to a good start! He's looking at the heap of paper, he's.... just look at the intense concentration on his proud and manly warrior face! YES, He's TAKING THE TREATY! And.... oh, what a shame, it looks like he ate it. Better luck next time. What's this? "GNARR HURT LITTLE MAN! YOU NO TAKE WATER RIGHTS!" Gnarr is hulking, yes, he is definitely hulking! But what's this! Lord Teaspoon is invoking the security clause and, yes, in a shocking move he is claiming two dozen of Gnarr's cows forfeit under the 'infernal poultry and bovines' act of 1274 and referring to the United Tribes' own bylaws on the matter. Gnarr is restrained by security! Oh, no, he is crying. He is actually cryin... This is a terrible day for the United Tribes of Upper Nowhere...


And this is why the tribes of Upper Nowhere stopped equating big hitpoint pools with strong leadership abilities.

[slayerx]

Jirix;s strength speaks nothing of his leadership skills...
now how long he will last before he's assassinated, that might be brought to question


There are plenty of really strong and tough men and women out there (for fictional examples, Wonder Woman and Batman), but being tough doesn't mean one has good leadership skills, or vice versa. (Can you imagine Batman or Wonder Woman trying to run a country?) Leadership skills require that you get people to do what you say in a productive, unified manner. They don't require a black belt.

Batman runs a multibillion dollar business, and wonder woman was raised as a princess... kinda think they got leadership skills... might want to pick a different set of superheros =p

[Kranerian]

As is said in comic, the plan is for a transition from a military occupation to a standing nation. In theory, they wouldn't need their leaders to be nigh-indestructible anymore.

[Haven]

how many Presidents do you know who are the strongest people in their country?

Are we counting governors?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Well, from a D&D rules standpoint, a good leader will need lots of Diplomacy and Sense Motive. Maybe a bit of Bluff and Intimidate, too. In order to get a high score in those skills, one will have to gain levels to get the skill points and a higher maximum rank. Those bring with them more hit points and better survivability for those cases when the leader is impaled with an iron bar. So, actually, his frailty in the encounter with O-Chul does have some bearing on his Leadership skills.

Now, fortunately, the two key skills, Diplomacy and Sense Motive, are on the cleric class list. Most of the secondary skills, however, are not. Unfortunately, neither skill is vital to a cleric’s primary game functions. Indeed, Spellcraft, Concentration, and Knowledge (religion) are usually the primary skills of choice. Furthermore, clerics only gain two skill points per level and need to prioritize Wisdom over Intelligence. So a given cleric is not likely to have either of the leadership Skills.

One thing the aspiring leader-cleric does have, though is the ridiculousness of the rules-as-written Diplomacy. Changing a mood is a flat DC, so once one hits a level of Diplomacy he or she needs for the moods he or she most often deals with, that cleric is set. Likewise, Sense Motive only requires a particularly high score when frequently dealing with high-level liars. Using Sense Motive to assess the mood of your subjects is a consistently low DC.

So, the question is: Does Jirix at least have enough levels to have spent the necessary ranks in Diplomacy and Sense Motive to make the DCs he is likely to face? His hit points seem to indicate that he is significantly lower-level than certain certified (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html) high-level characters (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html) who have survived similar injuries. Given his class’s rate of skill point acquisition, I think he would have had to make a conscious effort to raise his leader skills at the expense of his class-important skills to ensure total reliability at that level.

Of course, all that is moot with the proper Charisma and/or skill-enhancing magic items. :smallwink:

[Maximum Zersk]

Are we counting governors?

No, Arnie is used only by cheaters.

[krossbow]

how many Presidents do you know who are the strongest people in their country?

i'm hoping for amendments to allow swarzeneiger!

[Lecan]

Batman runs a multibillion dollar business, and wonder woman was raised as a princess... kinda think they got leadership skills... might want to pick a different set of superheros =p

Right, because being raised as royalty automatically makes you the best choice to lead a country.

Edited for clarity and correctness.

[krossbow]

batman COULD run the country, just he believes in using the minimum response neccecary (similar to how he has mechsuits and armaments that put the military to shame but he doesn't go blowing the heads off his rogue's gallery)

[industrious]

how many Presidents do you know who are the strongest people in their country?


Teddy Roosevelt.
Andrew Jackson.
Ulysses Grant.

If we go by past US presidents, that is.

[Doppelganger]

Jirix is doomed (probably)

The problem isn't the fact Jirix is mid-level, its the fact no one else is. The king doesn't have to be anything more than a first level aristocrat, but he has to have mid-level guards and clerics to protect him and raise him if when he gets killed. As far as we know, the hobgoblins are all low level (maybe a couple 3-6th level fighters/clerics/wizards) which means that he is the main force defending himself. Which is NOT OK. Zykon didn't do that, and he's one of the most individualy powerful people in the OOTS world. He has lackies to give him tactical advice and help/healing in combat, backup from death, and a hand with dipplomancy. Jirix may be strong enough to raise dead, but I don't think any other hobgoblins are. So, if when Jirix gets vaporized, thats it. Thanks for playing.

-Pixie

[krossbow]

on a more serious note though, jirix is more of a follower, not a leader. he hangs on everything that redcloak tells him to do, and has shown little ability to think on his own. he's great at carrying out orders told to him and serving his superiors, but he's shown very little capability to act independently.


and when he's in charge of an entire nation, that's a bad thing.

[ClockShock]

on a more serious note though, jirix is more of a follower, not a leader. he hangs on everything that redcloak tells him to do, and has shown little ability to think on his own. he's great at carrying out orders told to him and serving his superiors, but he's shown very little capability to act independently.


and when he's in charge of an entire nation, that's a bad thing.

"A legitimate peacetime leader should seem relaxed. I figured it would help clarify the transition."

Jirix has been given very little opportunity to show his ability to think. But it's implied that he can come up with "out-of-the-box" ideas, and the most recent comic shows that he is thinking about public reactions to his appearance.

[Kish]

I agree with NerfTW. (Et al, but NerfTW put it most succinctly.)

[Katana_Geldar]

Had to post this.

http://www.66batman.com/yabbfiles/avatars/vote_batman.gif

I think the fact that whether Jirix will be good or not is rather moot compared eith the question of why Redcloak chose him in the first place.

And why is that? Because Jirix would listen to him. If he saw someone who was capable of being a better leader than he was, he'd probably kill them.

[Shale]

And why is that? Because Jirix would listen to him. If he saw someone who was capable of being a better leader than he was, he'd probably kill them.

What in God's name gives you that impression?

He said it himself - it is very likely that he will never see Gobbotopia again. Assuming that he genuinely wants the country to succeed - and all indications are that he does - a sycophant who can't think for himself would be the last person he'd every want to leave in charge. Such a "leader" would bother Redcloak night and day with Sendings at best, and at worst just allow the country to fall. I think we can all agree that he wouldn't like that.

[Katana_Geldar]

I think I put it badly, but Redcloak would have instructions about what to do so not stuff up The Plan, right?

[Shale]

What can Jirix possibly do to muck up The Plan, though? The job is to get to a Gate, perform the ritual, and let the Dark One take it from there. If you're talking about the plan for general goblinkind equality, as furthered by Gobbotopia being a thriving independent country, that's best served by putting a competent leader in charge and letting him work. I'm sure Redcloak would rather continue being that leader, but he can't, and he's in no position to rule from afar, or even be an active adviser. He said it himself; it's up to Jirix to contact him for advice, not the other way around.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Right, because being raised as royalty automatically makes you the best choice to lead a country.
Not necessarily, but when in line for the throne, one can be expected to receive training in ruling. From there, it’s a matter of how one responds to that training.

[slayerx]

Right, because being raised as royalty automatically makes you the best choice to lead a country.

Well when you consider that most royalty, especially within the realms of fiction, would groom and raise their heir's from birth in order to make certain they are ready to take up the role of leadership... in kinda of does in a way; atleast better than the vast majority of other people...

The exception to that is when the heir comes from a long line of corrupt and idiotic rulers and thus the whole line is tainted and none are fit to properly teach the heir... in most (though not all) works of fiction the only princes/princesses that are ill suited to lead are either those who are villains or those that are still too young

ninja'd

[TriForce]

if high hitpoints = leadership ability then o-chul would be leader of the world and make it a paradise on his first day at the job

what your saying amounts to telling someone he cannot play good soccer becouse he wears green socks

[Mystic Muse]

what your saying amounts to telling someone he cannot play good soccer becouse he wears green socks

wait.....that's true.....isn't it? Isn't it? Sarcasm. This is not the white text you're looking for.

[Querzis]

how many Presidents do you know who are the strongest people in their country?

If you meant «leaders» instead of just «president» then way too many to count. Just to name a few there is Alexander the great, Julius Caesar, Genghis Khan, Attila the hun, Richard Lionheart, almost every vikings chieftains and, of course, Theodore Roosevelt. You can say humans arent animals all you want but it doesnt change the fact that humans always liked a leader that could kick their ass more then a weak leader.

Anyway, I think Jirix would really be a good leader but I'm also pretty damn sure the elves and the resistance are going to assassinate him. So yeah, in D&D, if you arent a strong leader you must at least get some really good bodyguards and all the highest level characters are gonna leave with Xykon so Jirix is pretty much already dead.

[Acero]

If you meant «leaders» instead of just «president» then way too many to count. Just to name a few there is Alexander the great, Julius Caesar, Genghis Khan, Attila the hun, Richard Lionheart, almost every vikings chieftains and, of course, Theodore Roosevelt. You can say humans arent animals all you want but it doesnt change the fact that humans always liked a leader that could kick their ass more then a weak leader.

Anyway, I think Jirix would really be a good leader but I'm also pretty damn sure the elves and the resistance are going to assassinate him. So yeah, in D&D, if you arent a strong leader you must at least get some really good bodyguards and all the highest level characters are gonna leave with Xykon so Jirix is pretty much already dead.

Was Theodore Roosevelt Elected because he Beat every other citizen in an arm wrestling contest?

All the other leaders you stated. Out of them, Which empires still exist?

btw, Richard the Lionhearted only spent six months of his life in England. He didn't even speak the language. Besides, he used diplomacy to end the crusades. at least for a time

[Querzis]

Was Theodore Roosevelt Elected because he Beat every other citizen in an arm wrestling contest?

All the other leaders you stated. Out of them, Which empires still exist?

btw, Richard the Lionhearted only spent six months of his life in England. He didn't even speak the language. Besides, he used diplomacy to end the crusades. at least for a time

I dont especially get what that has to do with anything. You asked how many leaders were the strongest people in their country and I answered, thats it. Honestly, having a leader that cant fight is a pretty new concept for humanity. But if you are trying to argue that they were actually bad leaders (or at least I think thats what you're trying to say) when my list include Genghis Khan, Julius Cesar, Alexander the great and Theodore Roosevelt, I would say you are totally wrong.

By the way: «Which empire still exist»? Are you serious there? Most of those guys are about 2000 years old, do you actually think United-states will still exist in 2000 years?

[Acero]

I dont especially get what that has to do with anything. You asked how many leaders were the strongest people in their country and I answered

forgive me. I mean the power discussed here.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0625.html

[Mystic Muse]

By the way: «Which empire still exist»? Are you serious there? Most of those guys are about 2000 years old, do you actually think United-states will still exist in 2000 years?

also, for them not to be strong leaders it would require them to have still been alive when their empire fell. If the United States falls in 2,000 years you can't blame it on George Washington.

[Zxo]

The only reason Jirix may fail (save for assassination) is because he's too nice. Crowds love him when things are well, but he seems to enjoy this popularity too much and may be unable to make unpopular decisions or be harsh or confrontational when the situation calls for it.

[RedCloakLives!]

Jirix will be a splendid leader!

(1) His name is significant. It harkens to this famous comic hero (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterix_(character)).

(2) He will be a Hero Statesman for the Ages (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7981743&postcount=33)!
:smallwink:

[Snake-Aes]

I think I put it badly, but Redcloak would have instructions about what to do so not stuff up The Plan, right?

Gobbotopia, as far as the Plan's goal, is insignificant. It's their best shot among mortals, but the gods don't give a crap to it.

He WANTS Gobbotopia to succeed. He wants the Plan to succeed. He must, then, carry on with the plan and leave Gobbotopia in the best hands he can afford to. If Jirix isn't the best leader around, that only means Redcloak couldn't get someone better.

[Teddy]

Gobbotopia, as far as the Plan's goal, is insignificant. It's their best shot among mortals, but the gods don't give a crap to it.

It seems to me as if The Dark One gives a lot about Gobbotopia, according to what he said to Jirix about "trade and logistics, diplomacy and intrigue".

[Snake-Aes]

It seems to me as if The Dark One gives a lot about Gobbotopia, according to what he said to Jirix about "trade and logistics, diplomacy and intrigue".

Of course he cares about it and likes it, but the success or failure of Gobbotopia won't change the deific determination that goblinoids are adventurers' target practice dummies. Without the pantheons giving the "ok" to goblinoids to be on par with player races, Goblinoid success is over as soon as Gobbotopia falls.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

if high hitpoints = leadership ability then o-chul would be leader of the world and make it a paradise on his first day at the job
O–Chul’s hit points stem from an abnormally high Constitution and so cannot be used to determine how many skill points he has to play with. Furthermore, he has a low Charisma, so he is missing natural talent as well.


The only reason Jirix may fail (save for assassination) is because he's too nice. Crowds love him when things are well, but he seems to enjoy this popularity too much and may be unable to make unpopular decisions or be harsh or confrontational when the situation calls for it.
Keep in mind his being “nice” was an admittedly calculated maneuver. He’s pretty damn sly when it comes to handling the crowds.


Without the pantheons giving the "ok" to goblinoids to be on par with player races, Goblinoid success is over as soon as Gobbotopia falls.
Remember, the pantheons initially set goblinoids where they were…
Start of Darkness
…because they were worried about the goblinoids overrunning their favored races.
If Gobbotopia can more-or-less peacefully coexist with the other races, it might convince the gods that institutionalized discrimination was unnecessary. Then the goal of the Plan could be fulfilled another way.

Of course, that’s a pretty big “if.”

[RecklessFable]

Teddy Roosevelt.
Andrew Jackson.
Ulysses Grant.

If we go by past US presidents, that is.

Not that I'm supporting the argument, because the entire premise of the OP is silly since the leader of the nation doesn't actually go and Tank on the battlefield, but you missed Prez #1, George Washington.

[RecklessFable]

If Gobbotopia can more-or-less peacefully coexist with the other races, it might convince the gods that institutionalized discrimination was unnecessary. Then the goal of the Plan could be fulfilled another way.

Of course, that’s a pretty big “if.”

Never happen as long as there are nations that are against, you know, evil. Like that little slavery issue and necromancy.

As for The Plan, as soon as they start to *INSERT SOD REFERENCE HERE* then all the nations will attack them in outrage if they aren't already in massive disarray from the outcome.

Gobbotopia is about gaining a foothold in world domination under the green banner.

[dps]

Contrary to what pops up in stories a lot, you don't necessarily need to be a good fighter or a resilient badass in order to be a good leader. There are plenty of really strong and tough men and women out there (for fictional examples, Wonder Woman and Batman), but being tough doesn't mean one has good leadership skills, or vice versa. (Can you imagine Batman or Wonder Woman trying to run a country?) Leadership skills require that you get people to do what you say in a productive, unified manner. They don't require a black belt.

That's why presidents and monarchs and other rulers have lots of bodyguards.

Yep. Just look at what the Dark One told him--his battles "will be battles of trade and logistics, diplomacy and intrigue".

[Snake-Aes]

Remember, the pantheons initially set goblinoids where they were…
Start of Darkness
…because they were worried about the goblinoids overrunning their favored races.
If Gobbotopia can more-or-less peacefully coexist with the other races, it might convince the gods that institutionalized discrimination was unnecessary. Then the goal of the Plan could be fulfilled another way.

Of course, that’s a pretty big “if.”

*Almost* that. They were created as fodder, and forced those conditions so they could never overrun the PCs. Much harder to argue in favor of removing a countermeasure when it was never a countermeasure in the first place.

[DavidBV]

Goblins are too weak to really compete with humans, elves and dwarves. How many epic or nearly epic goblinoids do we know from OoTS? The Dark One was first and last, other than that if it wasn't for the Crimson Mantle, there are probably scores human or elf spellcasters that could solo the whole realm of Gobbotopia. Guys like Vaarsuvius' master or Eugene Greenhilt's master, for example, or Xykon before turning into a lich.

[Snake-Aes]

Goblins are too weak to really compete with humans, elves and dwarves. How many epic or nearly epic goblinoids do we know from OoTS? The Dark One was first and last, other than that if it wasn't for the Crimson Mantle, there are probably scores human or elf spellcasters that could solo the whole realm of Gobbotopia. Guys like Vaarsuvius' master or Eugene Greenhilt's master, for example, or Xykon before turning into a lich.
Aarindarius and Fyron, respectively.

[slayerx]

Goblins are too weak to really compete with humans, elves and dwarves. How many epic or nearly epic goblinoids do we know from OoTS? The Dark One was first and last, other than that if it wasn't for the Crimson Mantle, there are probably scores human or elf spellcasters that could solo the whole realm of Gobbotopia. Guys like Vaarsuvius' master or Eugene Greenhilt's master, for example, or Xykon before turning into a lich.

Actually, overrunning the other races could occur despite their lack of individual strength as we just need to look at the numerical strength... goblins have short lifespans which means they grow and mature quickly; this also means that they can reproduce faster than other races... in theory, if it was not for the goblins poor position in life which leads them to getting killed more often than other races they could eventually outnumber the other races, and hence leads to the other races getting overrun... hell i think in DnD, humans are the most common PC race you can find and yet are also the shortest lived of the PC races... in time Goblins could take the place of humans and become the dominate race... its kind of a natural balance thing

[Red XIV]

And that cloister effect will be ending at some point, so scry-and-die tactics could open up.
I was under the impression that Cloister lasts for as long as the caster is alive. Given how (IIRC) the Dungeon of Dorukan lost its Cloister effect the moment Xykon killed Dorukan.

[Kish]

I was under the impression that Cloister lasts for as long as the caster is alive. Given how (IIRC) the Dungeon of Dorukan lost its Cloister effect the moment Xykon killed Dorukan.
One week per caster level (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html).

[Kranden]

(Can you imagine Batman or Wonder Woman trying to run a country?)

Batman and Wonder woman in 2012 {Scrubbed}

[krossbow]

I think all you decrying the validity of a leader needing to be a powerful warrior are forgetting something very important.



MICHAEL WILSON, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZVmtDuMxAA) 47TH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

[Souhiro]

how many Presidents do you know who are the strongest people in their country?

The Governator Schwarzenegger.

[Vaarsuvius4181]

Redcloak was a good leader, and he can defend his people. Jirix cant. If he dies, a political upset or rebellion can occur.

[licoot]

Being a leader Jirex doesn't have to fight, just lead.
He can have guards.

[Kish]

Redcloak was a good leader, and he can defend his people. Jirix cant. If he dies, a political upset or rebellion can occur.
Of all Redcloak's debatable leadership qualities, I would hardly consider "a high-level adventurer" a necessary one. As people have pointed out, Shojo was an eighth-level aristocrat; Jirix is clearly more powerful than that in combat, for whatever it matters.

[Asta Kask]

Of all Redcloak's debatable leadership qualities, I would hardly consider "a high-level adventurer" a necessary one. As people have pointed out, Shojo was an eighth-level aristocrat; Jirix is clearly more powerful than that in combat, for whatever it matters.

But remember that level also sets the limit in how skilled you can be. That's one of the oddities of the D&D system - "I'm sorry. You can't become a better blacksmith until you've killed some people."

[DavidBV]

Actually, overrunning the other races could occur despite their lack of individual strength as we just need to look at the numerical strength... goblins have short lifespans which means they grow and mature quickly; this also means that they can reproduce faster than other races... in theory, if it was not for the goblins poor position in life which leads them to getting killed more often than other races they could eventually outnumber the other races, and hence leads to the other races getting overrun... hell i think in DnD, humans are the most common PC race you can find and yet are also the shortest lived of the PC races... in time Goblins could take the place of humans and become the dominate race... its kind of a natural balance thing

No matter how many goblins you pile up with numbers: this is not real life, it's DnD 3.5

The problem with goblins is that they for some reason don't seem able to go beyond mid level... nothing to do with comparing humans and elves, as humans can excel and be epic in all classes. Pile up a dozen characters (inc. spellcasters) of level 16+ and there goes the whole goblin civilization.

[Kish]

The problem with goblins is that they for some reason don't seem able to go beyond mid level...

Haley: I'm not even sure if there are any seventeenth-level clerics in the world!
Belkar: Ooh! I bet Redcloak is seventeenth level!

Nor is that about the Crimson Mantle; Redcloak's brother was a rogue apparently of level comparable to Redcloak himself.

nothing to do with comparing humans and elves, as humans can excel and be epic in all classes. Pile up a dozen characters (inc. spellcasters) of level 16+ and there goes the whole goblin civilization.
Perhaps we have a dramatically different perception of what the average adventurer level is in the OotS universe. I would expect a dozen characters of level 16+ to handily walk all over all the world, if they chose to do so and weren't defeated by infighting, clashing agendas, or Xykon.

[Morty]

No matter how many goblins you pile up with numbers: this is not real life, it's DnD 3.5

The problem with goblins is that they for some reason don't seem able to go beyond mid level... nothing to do with comparing humans and elves, as humans can excel and be epic in all classes. Pile up a dozen characters (inc. spellcasters) of level 16+ and there goes the whole goblin civilization.

Maybe, although it's just a wild speculation, it's because they're set up as being the XP fodder of the rest of the world. It's hard to gain levels if you're the way to gain levels for others.

[Snake-Aes]

As Qarr himself said...do you even know how many get to tenth level?

High level adventurers are RARE. Anything past level 8 or 9 is material to influence entire countries. As Kish said... a level 16~ party could very well take over anything that isn't war-level grand, and even those war-level combats would be very, very, oh oh very terribly expensive. Belkar alone killed on his own more hobs than V's supersoldiers, and in a similar if not smaller timeframe. Give him 2 or 3 more levels and see the damage. Now make it someone better able to handle masses, like a wizard or sorcerer. Even better, make it the entire party!

And David...that's exactly why the Plan was set in motion: The gods themselves DETERMINED that goblins would be adventurer fodder. They aren't going to level a lot.

[Querzis]

Its usually possible to get to high-level in D&D just because the DM is on your side and there is no DM in the OOTS world. Nothing stop the ancient red dragon from killing low-level adventurers just because hes not level appropriate. Xykon is the highest level character we saw until now and, as we can see in SoD, he was really lucky to be able get there. He might actually be the strongest spellcaster in the entire world right now. Beside, please read strip 704 again, Redcloak say:

«He does this sometimes. Disappears, only to return with some new trick.»
And also remember about Xykon speech to Roy, he asked him to come back when he would be stronger because right now he was not a challenge for him. In other words, I woudnt be surprised if Xykon got to his level by finding and killing adventurers who can give him XP! To become an epic character in the OOTS world, you dont just have to worry about the monsters, you also have to worry about the epic sorcerer lich.

[Spiky]

But remember that level also sets the limit in how skilled you can be. That's one of the oddities of the D&D system - "I'm sorry. You can't become a better blacksmith until you've killed some people."

There is also the point that this is not D&D, it is Order of the Stick. In this world, Jirix will no doubt get some boost to his stats appropriate to country leadership simply by taking command officially. Heck, he got about 2 levels just by having a name.

[factotum]

Maybe, although it's just a wild speculation, it's because they're set up as being the XP fodder of the rest of the world. It's hard to gain levels if you're the way to gain levels for others.

There are multiple humanoid races--they could quite happily level up by fighting each other. In the case of the hobgoblins, their extremely militaristic outlook means they probably fight each other all the time!

Incidentally, humans, elves etc. could do the same thing, so the idea that the gods had to create XP fodder races isn't necessarily the whole truth to my mind.

[Snake-Aes]

There are multiple humanoid races--they could quite happily level up by fighting each other. In the case of the hobgoblins, their extremely militaristic outlook means they probably fight each other all the time!

Incidentally, humans, elves etc. could do the same thing, so the idea that the gods had to create XP fodder races isn't necessarily the whole truth to my mind.

What else could it be?
Game-wise, they are xp fodder. in oots world they wanted the pcs to level up but not by killing other pcs. come fodder humanoids. FIghting each other to level wouldn't help much, for then they'd be even more the focus of the pcs.

[SoC175]

Goblins are too weak to really compete with humans, elves and dwarves. How many epic or nearly epic goblinoids do we know from OoTS? The Dark One was first and last, other than that if it wasn't for the Crimson Mantle, there are probably scores human or elf spellcasters that could solo the whole realm of Gobbotopia. Guys like Vaarsuvius' master or Eugene Greenhilt's master, for example, or Xykon before turning into a lich. Well, the goblinoid army overrunning all human empires of the eastern continent and which could only be driven off after heavy fighting against united elven and dwarfish armies disagrees with that

[krossbow]

As Qarr himself said...do you even know how many get to tenth level?

High level adventurers are RARE. Anything past level 8 or 9 is material to influence entire countries.



Untrue. Belkar put a notice up in cliffport outside the tavern and within MOMENTS individuals of power poured out of it and absolutely destroyed yok yok.

[Snake-Aes]

Untrue. Belkar put a notice up in cliffport outside the tavern and within MOMENTS individuals of power poured out of it and absolutely destroyed yok yok.

You do know that was the joke, right? If you want to put them in reasonable terms, they might very well be level 8, tops. We have no indication of Yikyik's power either, given his only power over belkar was the fact he wasn't willing to attack and have the mark go off.

[krossbow]

You do know that was the joke, right? If you want to put them in reasonable terms, they might very well be level 8, tops. We have no indication of Yikyik's power either, given his only power over belkar was the fact he wasn't willing to attack and have the mark go off.

almost everything in the comic is a joke; we still have to use the various things shown in world as evidence of how things work. And all evidence up to know seems to confirm that most in world taverns are always filled with adventurers of fairly good power.

[Snake-Aes]

almost everything in the comic is a joke; we still have to use the various things shown in world as evidence of how things work. And all evidence up to know seems to confirm that most in world taverns are always filled with adventurers of fairly good power.

So far the only concentrations of power we saw were the two taverns, and Cliffport's pretty much spent solely to the mercenary adventuring gag. And as I said...we have no evidence of the kobold's actual level. I dare say that while we can expect a rather high number of 5s~, getting past 8 makes you a legend. A fiend whose life consists of associating with more powerful beings saying "do you know how many get past 10?" is enough to rise the suspicion.

Another good example is azure city itself. The entire army was composed of levels 1 to 5 humanoids. There were maybe two or three nameless over that(including the high priest), and then only the named azurites and the OOTS itself.
Out of ten thousand people, 10~ are known to be middle-high level, while the rest is not even 6.

[Vaarsuvius4181]

If your leader dies, it would definetly slow things down.

[Lyth]

As Qarr himself said...do you even know how many get to tenth level?

High level adventurers are RARE.

Origin of the PCs:

I seem to remember that while looking for new party members, Durkon found a couple of PCs who he eventually turned away. I believe the parting quote from one of them to the other was, "Hey, wanna go storm the gates of hell again?"

On that matter, there's at least a page or two devoted to PCs Roy interviewed for the group - where do you think they are now?



I'd say there's plenty of 10+ characters running around...

[Querzis]

Origin of the PCs:

I seem to remember that while looking for new party members, Durkon found a couple of PCs who he eventually turned away. I believe the parting quote from one of them to the other was, "Hey, wanna go storm the gates of hell again?"

On that matter, there's at least a page or two devoted to PCs Roy interviewed for the group - where do you think they are now?



I'd say there's plenty of 10+ characters running around...


I dont have origin of the PC right now but werent those guys Durkon found, you know, Outsiders? I'm pretty damn sure one of them was a solar. And the party most definitly werent level 10 back then. I would say they were around level 5 or 6 when the OOTS was created.

Look, the simple fact that in a big city like Azure city there was only about 10 people around level 10 (excluding the OOTS) is more then enough to prove that yes, they are really that rare.

[slayerx]

The problem with goblins is that they for some reason don't seem able to go beyond mid level... nothing to do with comparing humans and elves, as humans can excel and be epic in all classes. Pile up a dozen characters (inc. spellcasters) of level 16+ and there goes the whole goblin civilization.

Goblins don't get to mid level mainly because of their short life span... their narutal life span is very short which limits the amount of time they get to be in their prime... furthermore adventurers often target them for exp and thus kill them before they can get higher levels... having a nation will allow Goblins in the long run to live long enough to actually start building up their levels.

And it would take more than a dozen level 16+ characters to take down goblin civilization... I mean the OotS was a level 14 party and yet they alone could not take down even half of that 30,000 man/undead army... with the aid 9,000 low level soldiers they only managed to take out 10,000 before they had to call it quits and retreat... V even used up all of his magic... its pretty much as O'chul told Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0417.html), Statistically even high level players can get overwhelmed if by enough goblins... and over the years that army is only gonna grow... and based on haley question about the exsistance of lv17 clerics i'd say that lv16+ parties are generally hard to come by

[Ancalagon]

Goblins don't get to mid level mainly because of their short life span...

Many complete adventurer careers (from 1 to 20) take place within like 3 to 24 ingame months. Even if we change that to 1 to 10 ingame-years, which is A LOT, that is well within the goblin-lifespan.

[Paŭlo]

If you meant «leaders» instead of just «president» then way too many to count. Just to name a few there is Alexander the great, Julius Caesar, Genghis Khan, Attila the hun, Richard Lionheart, almost every vikings chieftains and, of course, Theodore Roosevelt. You can say humans arent animals all you want but it doesnt change the fact that humans always liked a leader that could kick their ass more then a weak leader.
Do you have any sources that those (arguably politically successful) leaders were really physically strong, and even more "the strongest people in their country"? Apart from maybe mongols and vikings, I think most of them either inherited their jobs or (Roosevelt) got elected for not-strongness-reasons.

[slayerx]

Many complete adventurer careers (from 1 to 20) take place within like 3 to 24 ingame months. Even if we change that to 1 to 10 ingame-years, which is A LOT, that is well within the goblin-lifespan.

Actually, when i said they had a short life span, i meant to refer to both their natural life span in addition to their high unnatural fatality rate... goblin fighters likely often do not live long enough to get to old age... and if they try to go out adventuring which is the fastest way to level up, their chances of dying on the end of an adventurer's sword probably skyrocket.

[Kish]

If your leader dies, it would definetly slow things down.
Again, you do remember that Shojo was an eighth-level aristocrat, right?

[Shale]

14th-level. Aristocrat doesn't have the best HD in the world, though.

[Kish]

Ah, right, fourteenth level.

Still easier to kill than Jirix.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Contrary to what pops up in stories a lot, you don't necessarily need to be a good fighter or a resilient badass in order to be a good leader. There are plenty of really strong and tough men and women out there (for fictional examples, Wonder Woman and Batman), but being tough doesn't mean one has good leadership skills, or vice versa. (Can you imagine Batman or Wonder Woman trying to run a country?) Leadership skills require that you get people to do what you say in a productive, unified manner. They don't require a black belt.
It probably matters more in feudal societies that depend upon warrior caste, particularly in times of war. It certainly doesn't hurt. But even then, it could be deferred to a guy who actually was good at training the troops.

[Vaarsuvius4181]

Again, you do remember that Shojo was an eighth-level aristocrat, right?

And remember how shojo died, and the whole political system of azure city practically collapsed? Oh, and within twelve hours, they lost their city to hoblins.

[Ancalagon]

Actually, when i said they had a short life span, i meant to refer to both their natural life span in addition to their high unnatural fatality rate... goblin fighters likely often do not live long enough to get to old age... and if they try to go out adventuring which is the fastest way to level up, their chances of dying on the end of an adventurer's sword probably skyrocket.

That goblins don't get levels has more to do with the fact they are part of the static background. You might want to check www.goblinscomic.com on that topic. ;)

[Kish]

And remember how shojo died, and the whole political system of azure city practically collapsed?
After ruling for years and being very old. Are you now basing your argument on the assumption that a non-terrible leader is definitionally one who plans to live forever? I don't think Shojo was a particularly good ruler, for lots of reasons, but his lack of personal combat prowess isn't one of them.

[Asta Kask]

IIRC, the USA didn't disintegrate entirely when Lincoln was shot...

[Ancalagon]

I don't think Shojo was a particularly good ruler, for lots of reasons, but his lack of personal combat prowess isn't one of them.

Given the background he worked in, he was a very good ruler. He either could roll with it (he did that very well and kept things stable for decades) or kill/get rid of the entire noble cast.

It's more Soon's fault who started all it and did not realise what city he lives in/governs. When Shojo took over, the mess was there and he had to deal with it... somehow. He did that not "perfectly" but "quite well" for sure.

The worst thing Shojo did - keeping the sapphire guard a secret and the secret order of the city - wasn't his choice to decide.

[Ancalagon]

IIRC, the USA didn't disintegrate entirely when Lincoln was shot...

Yeah, that's a problem that basically only feudal systems in general have when not everyone accepts the successor... other system are more restitant vs. the loss of a leader-figure.

[Tyndmyr]

how many Presidents do you know who are the strongest people in their country?

I approve of presidential selection via deathmatch.