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alexthemad
2010-03-01, 10:02 PM
So...I want to build a character that is as the title implies, and if possible be decent at slaying undead. But the focus is to be a wizard's nightmare. The build that I would like to use is Wiz6/Swiftblade9/Abj Champ5. Is this an ok build for what I want? What feats are needed? As far as I know all 3.5 books are ok to use except ToB. If there is another build that is far superior, please let me know. Thanks.

The Glyphstone
2010-03-01, 10:03 PM
Swiftblade loses too many caster levels, really. Abjurant Champion is good, but to fight high-level wizards you need to be a high-level wizard - that is to say, 9th level spells.

If you want to be a gish, Wizard/Abjurant Champion/Eldritch Knight should suit.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-01, 10:08 PM
Knight Phantom from 5 nations (and Web excerpt IIRC)is also a good idea, oh and try to get antimagic ray into your spell list.

alexthemad
2010-03-01, 10:10 PM
*cries* I really wanted to use Swiftblade. So losing the 3 Cl's isthat detrimental? Can that be made up with the feat Practiced Caster? (I think that's what it's called.) From Complete Arcane I think.

Eldariel
2010-03-01, 10:13 PM
I honestly think Swiftblade is excellent. It's one of the better Anti-Magic Field-users in the game with Extraordinary Haste that, more importantly doubles as Time Stop with the level 10 ability. Extraordinary Time Stop makes AMF actually a decent option for this as Contingencies cannot trigger under Time Stop. This makes it quite possible to close in on the Wizard (provided you have natural flight, of course, but that's easily enough arranged through being a Dragonborn of Bahamuth).

The biggest issue is getting both, level 9 spells (because let's face it, you need access to at LEAST Disjunction, Gate and Shapechange to really stand a fighting chance) and Ex Auto-Quickened Time Stop. Ex Auto-Quickened Time Stop is one of those tricks that actually CAN tip the scales in your favor ('cause y'know, if you can get a Wizard into the AMF without any contingencies triggering, and him not using Astral Projection-level defenses of "not being there", and you have a full-round action left, you should be able to kill him). There's no easy answer for that. There are few rather cheesy ways to pull it off, but the "cheesiness"-issue is still there.


Though your present build is fairly decent; being those levels behind means there are points where you don't stand a chance, but during most of your career, your capabilities should be such that you'd be a threat to your average Wizard. I definitely think it's about as good as a Gish can expect to do against a full-fledged Wizard.

The Glyphstone
2010-03-01, 10:14 PM
Actually, I did just see you're only taking 9 levels of Swiftblade, so it is only 3 spellcasting levels lost instead of 4. That means you would have 9th level spells, but only at CL20.

Practiced Spellcaster boosts you effective caster level, it does not help with spell slots or access to high level spells, which is important. What really matters here is: what level this character will be created at? You want 9th level win-buttons ASAP, so if you're leveling the character organically from anything below 17th, don't take anything that doesn't give +1 spellcasting level. If it's at level 20, go ahead with waht you have - the other Wizard will have more 9th levels, but it's more a case of who wins first instead of who has more spells.

Greenish
2010-03-01, 10:15 PM
Knight Phantom from 5 nations (and Web excerpt IIRC)is also a good idea, oh and try to get antimagic ray into your spell list.Knight Phantom. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4)

Practiced Spellcaster only increases your caster level, it doesn't give actual caster progression.

A wizard slayer is another wizard with stronger cheese, say incantatrix and/or Io7V.

alexthemad
2010-03-01, 10:16 PM
Hmm, except my build left out the Time Stop. I wasn't sure if it was worth it, but after hearing you explain it the way you did...I like it.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-01, 10:17 PM
Swiftblade is an excelent class but the loss of 9th level spelsl when going againts spellcasters that do get them is detrimental.

but you can take 9 levels and still get 9th level spells if you don't loose any other caster level

Concerning practiced spellcaster, it only gives CL for variables affected by CL such as damage, duration or how hard they are to dispel. It doesn't give you access to higher level spells,

also Swiftblade Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6280.0)


Edit: ninja'ed on practiced spellcaster.

Also since you have an (ex) time stop, I believe it isn't necesary to have Time stop as a spell list.

Eldariel
2010-03-01, 10:21 PM
Hmm, except my build left out the Time Stop. I wasn't sure if it was worth it, but after hearing you explain it the way you did...I like it.

The issue is that 9th level spells are more important than the Ex Time Stop. While it's an incredibly potent ability, 9th level spells are even stronger. The optimal approach would be finding a way to get both. Off the top of my head, all I can think of is a Loredrake Kobold with Draconic Rite of Passage...for the least cheesy approach. Which is of course the issue; there's very little in terms of fair ways of going about it. Ultimately, given the choice I'd rather pick 9th level spells, but the Time Stop is something to consider too giving you a very potent attack run against casters. After all, Time Stop is one of the most powerful 9th level spells, shattering action economy into nothingness.

But yeah, what you should also consider is which level do you intend for the character to be used. Full casters have 9th level spells 3 levels before you. That's a very real issue. It probably means you'll have a very hard time dealing with them at that point. I'd also optimize your Dispel-check; get Practiced Spellcaster, Inquisition-domain and maybe some equipment. You'll be using Battlemagic Perception for counters, and Greater Dispel Magic for offense a lot. Chain Greater Dispel Magic, especially.

Zeta Kai
2010-03-01, 10:34 PM
Cleric & Druid. Zilla.

Pluto
2010-03-01, 10:35 PM
What level are you playing at?
I love Swiftblade, but it takes a bit of time to mature.

Unless you're playing at level 20 and only level 20, I think a Cleric would do the job better (though it is a less stylish choice).

Counterspell hijinx, Initiate of Mystra shenanigans and Wizard-rate spell progression make it a better choice for more levels, IMO.

Glimbur
2010-03-01, 11:37 PM
Psion is interesting in that you won't have exactly the same abilities as your proposed targets, and they can do silly things to action economy. Check out various Test of Spite battles, as I don't know all the details.

herrhauptmann
2010-03-01, 11:40 PM
To get swiftblade as a cleric...
Time domain grants haste and time stop, also get Imp Initiative as a bonus feat.
Celerity domain grants haste.
Then take domain spontaneity (burn a turn attempt to convert a regular spell to a domain spell)
There's also an ACF which completely gives up turning to use spontaneously convert spells to domain (the way you convert a spell to a cure spell).

There's also a way to get swiftblade as a heretical cleric of Lathander. But it takes an extra 2 feats: Heretic of faith/Servant of the fallen. AND Initiate of Amaunator. (grants haste as a cleric spell) Then you should be able to take radiant servant instead of finishing off cleric levels.
But that would be a little feat heavy. Assuming human, no flaws. And that Radiant servant of Pelor can be reflavored for Lathander (Amaunator)
Levels 1-6 of cleric
1-Heretic of faith, Initiate of Amaunator (Lost empires of Faerun, and power of faerun)
3-Dodge
6-Mobility
Levels 7-9 Swiftblade
9-Extra turning
Levels 10-20 mix and match swiftblade and radiant servant.
Lets say, 6 more levels of Swiftblade (total of 9)
And 5 levels of Radiant Servant.

After level 9, might as well start taking Divine Metamagic and carrying nightsticks.

Zanatos777
2010-03-01, 11:49 PM
To get swiftblade as a cleric...
Time domain grants haste and time stop, also get Imp Initiative as a bonus feat.
Celerity domain grants haste.
Then take domain spontaneity (burn a turn attempt to convert a regular spell to a domain spell)
There's also an ACF which completely gives up turning to use spontaneously convert spells to domain (the way you convert a spell to a cure spell).

There's also a way to get swiftblade as a heretical cleric of Lathander. But it takes an extra 2 feats: Heretic of faith/Servant of the fallen. AND Initiate of Amaunator. (grants haste as a cleric spell) Then you should be able to take radiant servant instead of finishing off cleric levels.
But that would be a little feat heavy. Assuming human, no flaws. And that Radiant servant of Pelor can be reflavored for Lathander (Amaunator)
Levels 1-6 of cleric
1-Heretic of faith, Initiate of Amaunator (Lost empires of Faerun, and power of faerun)
3-Dodge
6-Mobility
Levels 7-9 Swiftblade
9-Extra turning
Levels 10-20 mix and match swiftblade and radiant servant.
Lets say, 6 more levels of Swiftblade (total of 9)
And 5 levels of Radiant Servant.

After level 9, might as well start taking Divine Metamagic and carrying nightsticks.

Swiftblade only advances arcane casting.

herrhauptmann
2010-03-02, 12:00 AM
Swiftblade only advances arcane casting.

Well crap, with the number of times I've seen swiftblade builds mentioned with cleric domains in the last year, you'd think someone would've pointed this out.

Maybe it counts as an oversight, like how swiftblade states "Use all 3rd level slots to cast haste." Never mind that several classes get haste at other levels (was stated by a designer that they would've rephrased that requirement)

quiet1mi
2010-03-02, 01:16 AM
I would be thinking about beguiler with darkstalker... being more creative than the other guy helps...

imperialspectre
2010-03-02, 01:27 AM
Well crap, with the number of times I've seen swiftblade builds mentioned with cleric domains in the last year, you'd think someone would've pointed this out.

There are ways to qualify for "casts arcane spells" or "progresses arcane spellcasting" as a divine caster. These ways are entirely RAW.

One example of a method for getting 9ths as a swiftblade can be found here (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYdLcxsM7Nx0ZGc2NzhibjNfNTNocnFrYjlmcQ&hl=en), courtesy of Doc Roc. It's entirely RAW and legit, and the version that makes you a Lillend puts you in an Always CG body.

Alternatively, Level Drain + Restoration, coupled with using Sub Chord, can get you 9ths as a swiftblade. It's just a serious pain to do so.

herrhauptmann
2010-03-02, 01:50 AM
There are ways to qualify for "casts arcane spells" or "progresses arcane spellcasting" as a divine caster. These ways are entirely RAW.
Do you have a link to the ways that let you use Swiftblade to progress as a divine caster?
I'll pass on the lillend route though. While RAI, I don't know any DM's that wouldn't say NO to something like polymorphing myself into another creature.

SethFahad
2010-03-02, 02:09 AM
Ok, where can I find swiftblade? Tha book please....

magic9mushroom
2010-03-02, 02:49 AM
Barring some method of AMFing a Wiz without Contingencies triggering he'll be mighty difficult to actually kill if Craft Contingent Spell is available.

Barring contingencies and infinite action abuse by either side (if those are allowed, it turns into a game of Who Has More Applicable Contingencies or Who Wins Rocket Tag) you should be able to shut down a Wizard with a counterspell build, like say Abjurer 1/Cleric 1/Master Abjurer 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/Archmage 1. Battlemagic Perception + Divine Defiance = can stop up to 2 spells a round reactively. Archmage gives you Mastery of Counterspelling on those so you can hurt the Wizard.

If there's stinky cheese involved, use a Psion (or, if you're in the mood, a Spell to Power Erudite). Use a Temporal Acceleration/Temporal Reiteration loop to stay Time Stopped for as long as you want, and Major Creation Black Lotus Poison on the Wizard in sufficient amounts to kill him. Or use Twinned Synchronicity or Delay Power to Dispel Psionics/Microcosm the sucker. Oh, and put down some sort of teleport inhibitor first.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-03-02, 02:57 AM
I would be thinking about beguiler with darkstalker... being more creative than the other guy helps...

You would still need a way to absolutely guarantee a one-hit-kill, which is virtually impossible with any kind of decent Contingency.

"Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect". You shoot to kill, his contingency goes off, and you are pet fodder.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-02, 03:03 AM
You would still need a way to absolutely guarantee a one-hit-kill, which is virtually impossible with any kind of decent Contingency.

"Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect". You shoot to kill, his contingency goes off, and you are pet fodder.

You can have your own contingencies, which leads to MtG-like shenanigans.

Or you can put an Illusory Pit under him under Time Stop. No-save stun.

Beorn080
2010-03-02, 03:05 AM
Sneak in and burn the DM's wizard sheets. Though he may have backed em up on the computer, better reformat it to make sure.

Seriously, every time I wizard and kill mentioned in a post, it tends to get out of hand. Either the wizard your trying to kill is bathing in melted cheese and you won't get close to killing, or its a fairly "normal" wizard that isn't likely to have 20 contingencies and tinfoil hats and such. If its a cheesegolem, well, it comes to knowing the rules. If its a "normal" wizard, odds are a good build and proper items will do the job.

Incidentally, if you REALLY want to kill wizards, get a god who hates magic and isn't paying too much attention to the material plane, try to gate him as often as possible, then we he comes, announce you are part of an order of wizards comprising every wizard on the plane, and they will kill him. Sure, you may die, but so should every other wizard.

faceroll
2010-03-02, 03:26 AM
There are ways to qualify for "casts arcane spells" or "progresses arcane spellcasting" as a divine caster. These ways are entirely RAW.

One example of a method for getting 9ths as a swiftblade can be found here (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYdLcxsM7Nx0ZGc2NzhibjNfNTNocnFrYjlmcQ&hl=en), courtesy of Doc Roc. It's entirely RAW and legit, and the version that makes you a Lillend puts you in an Always CG body.

Alternatively, Level Drain + Restoration, coupled with using Sub Chord, can get you 9ths as a swiftblade. It's just a serious pain to do so.

I'd rather use a kobold.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-02, 03:34 AM
I'd rather use a kobold.

I'd rather use a Phaerimm.

faceroll
2010-03-02, 03:36 AM
I'd rather use a Phaerimm.

I think that works, since effective sorc levels = sorc levels, then you get racial levels from having character levels. Niiiice.

SethFahad
2010-03-02, 03:38 AM
Errr... tha book??? .... for swiftblade???? :smallsigh:

faceroll
2010-03-02, 03:41 AM
Errr... tha book??? .... for swiftblade???? :smallsigh:

Search the wotc site.

It was originally this horrible gish class that came out on their site that was absolutely shredded by the charop. Just eviscerated. So the dev rewrote it. That's why it's such a good prestige class with partial progression.

At least that's how I remember it going down. It was awhile ago.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-02, 03:42 AM
I think that works, since effective sorc levels = sorc levels, then you get racial levels from having character levels. Niiiice.

Exactly. Phaerimms get 9ths no matter WHAT classes you take.

Playing a hatchling phaerimm has problems, though, because you don't have a way to speak to your party members.

faceroll
2010-03-02, 03:44 AM
Exactly. Phaerimms get 9ths no matter WHAT classes you take.

Playing a hatchling phaerimm has problems, though, because you don't have a way to speak to your party members.

One day, I'm going to play one of those monstrosities in a game.

If you get a raven familiar, you can sort of talk with your allies at ECL5.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-02, 03:58 AM
One day, I'm going to play one of those monstrosities in a game.

If you get a raven familiar, you can sort of talk with your allies at ECL5.

Could you get some kind of "sign language" learned with Int bonus? You'd be the only one needing it, since you can understand Common.

EDIT: Or you could pass notes, since you're not illiterate and understand Common, and should therefore be able to write in it.

Raendyn
2010-03-02, 04:30 AM
T
There's also a way to get swiftblade as a heretical cleric of Lathander. But it takes an extra 2 feats: Heretic of faith/Servant of the fallen. AND Initiate of Amaunator. (grants haste as a cleric spell)
Then you should be able to take radiant servant instead of finishing off cleric levels.

Then you should NOT be able to take blah blah because lathander & pelor do not exist in the same multyverse.they share some domains even if you would like to mix grayhawk & FR . these 2 classes just can't exist in the same campaign.


& as for my proposal: Wiz-5/Master specialist-4/Iot7V-7/Arch-4
Abjurer, take focused specialist atlernative from complete mage.
If you feel like it,take a shadow weave & 1 lvl of shadow adept,it will help while mage fights :smallbiggrin:

If Faerunian books are allowed consider, taking inproove init + improove couterspell so you can unlock ,Reactive Counterspell.once every turn.you can counter spell even if you have not redied a couter spell.(anti mage wasn't it?).this can also be good if you use the incantatrix build some 1 proposed earlier.

Also if lords of madness is alowed.take skill craft stonemansory & start throwing constructs with greater eidolon template:smallbiggrin:

Lastly,something that always makes players mad.take necromancer blah blah w/e you want.& for undead minion take something that has class lvls.
Vampires should do the job.the concept here is to have an army instead of 1-2 zombies be cause minions with character lvls can have their own minions who can have thiers...etc.:smallwink:

Phaerimms.this is only good if Arcane spell surge is allowed.or else..wellcome to spell fizzlleee:smallredface:

magic9mushroom
2010-03-02, 04:34 AM
Then you should NOT be able to take blah blah because lathander & pelor do not exist in the same multyverse.they share some domains even if you would like to mix grayhawk & FR . these 2 classes just can't exist in the same campaign.

Radiant Servant of Pelor has Adaptation text.

Also, there's Spelljammer and similar multiversal stuff.

Volkov
2010-03-02, 07:29 AM
A level 20 cleric and his level 20 druid friend should be able to take out all but the most absurd of munchkin wizard builds. Maybe throw in a Erudite there as well.

alexthemad
2010-03-02, 09:48 AM
Wow. So...I didn't expect this to get so complicated. The character would start at level 20. I wanted to make a gish, cause I thought a melee would take advantage of the wizards natural vulnerability and have spells to help him. But I guess I was still thinking low level. This is my first epic character ever. Every other character I have played as been 8 or lower. I have enjoyed reading this thread though, it has given me alot to think about. I particularly like the Knight Phantom.

So as a certain cartoon martian says..."Back to the old drawing board."

Greenish
2010-03-02, 09:58 AM
I would be thinking about beguiler with darkstalker... being more creative than the other guy helps...Bonus points for going killer gnome.
The character would start at level 20. I wanted to make a gish, cause I thought a melee would take advantage of the wizards natural vulnerability and have spells to help him.:biggrin:

Thalnawr
2010-03-02, 10:17 AM
The character would start at level 20. I wanted to make a gish, cause I thought a melee would take advantage of the wizards natural vulnerability and have spells to help him.

You were going to take advantage of the DM? That's really the only natural vulnerability wizards have that I know of... :smallbiggrin:

Optimystik
2010-03-02, 10:18 AM
Seconding the Psion idea - you have great ways to take out a wizard, even with full transparency. More importantly you can find him, even if he dedicates himself to hiding, thanks to Hypercognition/Metafaculty (though you'd have to be a Seer for that). You can even use the Save Game trick to save your game at the start of the day and jump back if he manages to defeat you.

herrhauptmann
2010-03-02, 10:29 AM
Then you should NOT be able to take blah blah because lathander & pelor do not exist in the same multyverse.they share some domains even if you would like to mix grayhawk & FR . these 2 classes just can't exist in the same campaign.


& as for my proposal: Wiz-5/Master specialist-4/Iot7V-7/Arch-4
Abjurer, take focused specialist atlernative from complete mage.
If you feel like it,take a shadow weave & 1 lvl of shadow adept,it will help while mage fights :smallbiggrin:

If Faerunian books are allowed consider, taking inproove init + improove couterspell so you can unlock ,Reactive Counterspell.once every turn.you can counter spell even if you have not redied a couter spell.(anti mage wasn't it?).this can also be good if you use the incantatrix build some 1 proposed earlier.

Also if lords of madness is alowed.take skill craft stonemansory & start throwing constructs with greater eidolon template:smallbiggrin:

Lastly,something that always makes players mad.take necromancer blah blah w/e you want.& for undead minion take something that has class lvls.
Vampires should do the job.the concept here is to have an army instead of 1-2 zombies be cause minions with character lvls can have their own minions who can have thiers...etc.:smallwink:

Phaerimms.this is only good if Arcane spell surge is allowed.or else..wellcome to spell fizzlleee:smallredface:

If shining blade of Heironeous can be reflavored for Torm or a god with an axe, then Radiant servant can be reflavored for any other sun deity who grants the appropriate domains.
So what were you trying to say with the 'blah blah' I stopped paying attention to your post.


edit: Here's the swiftblade PrC http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327

imperialspectre
2010-03-02, 10:54 AM
Do you have a link to the ways that let you use Swiftblade to progress as a divine caster?
I'll pass on the lillend route though. While RAI, I don't know any DM's that wouldn't say NO to something like polymorphing myself into another creature.

Dragonsblood Pool, from Complete Mage, gives any spellcaster a "bonus arcane spell slot," which can be as high as 3rd level. That's the easiest way to qualify for swiftblade (or war weaver) as a divine caster.

The Prestige Paladin variant, from Unearthed Arcana, makes your divine caster's spells "paladin spells" with a 1-level dip (Prestige Ranger does the same thing for "ranger spells," but requires 2 levels, loses a caster level, and doesn't give Battle Blessing access). The Sword of the Arcane Order feat, from Champions of Valor, allows you to prepare wizard spells in your paladin or ranger spell slots. This lets you be a fake Archivist who gets wizard spells instead of druid and ranger spells, but more importantly, the wizard spells are still "arcane spells" because there's nothing in the text that indicates they're changed into "divine spells." I used this combination to build a divine War Weaver that Jake (Doc Roc) instantly banned.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-02, 11:08 AM
Errr... tha book??? .... for swiftblade???? :smallsigh:
Never was printed in any book, it's only on WotC's website. It is official, and it's also awesome.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-03, 06:31 AM
Seconding the Psion idea - you have great ways to take out a wizard, even with full transparency. More importantly you can find him, even if he dedicates himself to hiding, thanks to Hypercognition/Metafaculty (though you'd have to be a Seer for that). You can even use the Save Game trick to save your game at the start of the day and jump back if he manages to defeat you.

Seer or Favoured Discipline Erudite or custom-mantle Ardent.

Optimystik
2010-03-03, 07:18 AM
Seer or Favoured Discipline Erudite or custom-mantle Ardent.

Good point - FD Erudite would actually be better for this than a Seer Psion, especially if you use the UP/L/D interpretation.

Seers get a good ACF of their own, however - Fate Points (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a) which, if you're playing with Action Points already allows you to trade your bonus feat for two good ones (and if you're not, gives you and only you access to them.)

Their other ACF, Psychic Knowledge, can also be handy at finding Schrodinger's Wizard.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-03, 07:24 AM
You would still need a way to absolutely guarantee a one-hit-kill, which is virtually impossible with any kind of decent Contingency.

"Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect". You shoot to kill, his contingency goes off, and you are pet fodder.

Unless it was a nontargeted attack, such as a Maw of chaos/Dimlock/forcecage in a timestop.

Optimystik
2010-03-03, 07:27 AM
Unless it was a nontargeted attack, such as a Maw of chaos/Dimlock/forcecage in a timestop.

Or a nontargeted dispel/disjunction/AMF/NPF, to strip away his contingency. :smallwink:

A psionic can use Synchronicity + Dispel Psionics to counter any contingency (or its attached spell) via the appropriate transparency rules.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-03, 07:29 AM
Or a nontargeted dispel/disjunction/AMF/NPF, to strip away his contingency. :smallwink:

True. There's usually a solid offensive option for any contingency. It's why contingency is a game of rock paper scissors.

onthetown
2010-03-03, 11:27 AM
You'll want a race that's got natural spell resistance or something like that, plus some spells that cancel out others. Mind Blank for enchantment, Antimagic Field, Protection from Alignment...

I can't think if there would be any races that are immune to some spell types or have spell resistance.

Eldariel
2010-03-03, 11:47 AM
You'll want a race that's got natural spell resistance or something like that, plus some spells that cancel out others. Mind Blank for enchantment, Antimagic Field, Protection from Alignment...

I can't think if there would be any races that are immune to some spell types or have spell resistance.

Can't he just cast the Spell Resistance-spell and get much higher Spell Resistance? :smallwink:

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-03, 11:51 AM
Can't he just cast the Spell Resistance-spell and get much higher Spell Resistance? :smallwink:

For SR, yes. For the others, he's trying to get stuff that works in an AMF.

Things like a Half-Black Dragon, Half Fire Elemental Troll... Things that are naturally immune to pretty much every form of dying based on HP damage.