Gods starting at level 1

[KingVic]

I'm trying to make a campaign for my friend. Were planning to use to 3.5 book Deities and Demigods to make a god based campaign. I'm dming and I told my friend that he could start a quasi god (divine rank 0). But there a problem: Deities and Demigods was intended for lvl 20 characters (or high lvl ones at least) but I want my friend to start lvl 1. Anybody got any suggestions on how to go about this?

on a side note, does anybody know where to get the 3.5 errata for Deities and Demigods?

[Mastikator]

Tell him that a level 1 doesn't seem very godlike and that rank 0 still means Heracles, i.e, epic.

[Dr Bwaa]

yeah... there's really no way to be a lvl 1 God (even divine rank 0). For instance: baby Heracles at age ~2 months old defeated (without taking damage, based on his joyfully playing with their bodies afterwards) two serpents at once, one in each hand. Even if you stat them as Tiny Vipers (I think they are supposed to have been at least Small, but accounts vary), that's still an EL 1 encounter for one character--Very Difficult at level 1. There's really just no substitute for Divine Rank--if you're a god (even a demigod), you also have more than 8 HP; get over it. Besides, what's so bad about playing it at high levels?

If you're really set on playing low-level gods, I recommend discarding all of the Godhood rules altogether and making something up that fits what you're trying to do.

[DragoonWraith]

I suppose pointing out that this is exactly what Exalted is would not be helpful?

[Kylarra]

I suppose pointing out that this is exactly what Exalted is would not be helpful?Or Scion, except Exalted retains the pseudo-medieval flavor, whereas Scion is "modern".


On topic, it sounds like you're just doing a 1 on 1 campaign? If so, then I'm not sure why anything else matters, just make it work. Give him DivR 0 and run him up through the levels, adjusting encounters on the fly for what he can handle.

[magic9mushroom]

Erbin is level 1 and is a rank 0 deity/is level 2 and is a rank 1 deity. On the other hand, he's Erbin. :smalltongue:

Rank 0 deityhood is only really worth a few LA, you don't get most of the awesome immunities and you don't get any SDAs.

[Aharon]

@magic9mushroom
Erbin isn't bad at DvR 0. He's very frail, but he gets time stop and a few other good (Sp)-Abilities.

[Yuki Akuma]

As long as everyone is starting the same, I see no problem with starting at level 1 with Divine Rank Zero.

You can be born with a Divine Rank of zero, and it's not like you can be born with class levels.

[Cicciograna]

Grant him his abilities as he increases in level. For example, for the first 3 or 4 levels he cannot truly access his god powers, whereas they come into effect in particularly dire occasions; as he reaches 5th level he learns to control basic aspects of his powers, such as his senses or one or two salient divine abilities. As he rises in power, grant hime more powerful capabilities, maybe linking them to the number of his worshipers (a god is not a god without something regarding him a god). Then, when he reaches level 18-20, grant him all of his powers, maybe upgrading him to divine rank 1.

[KingVic]

After reading Deities and Demigods again, I realized that there's not much that could kill my friend lvl 1 ( yes, were doing one on one campaign) because all gods get a dmg reduction of 35/+4. Does this apply to gods with a divine rank of 0?

btw I'm liking all your suggestions, I'm thinking of speeding him through the lvls so that the real fun can begin.

[Yuki Akuma]

A rank 0 demigod has:

Maximum HP
60ft. speed (if medium and bipedal)
+13 divine bonus to AC
+Cha deflection bonus to AC
Immunity to polymorphing, petrification or any other shape-altering powers. His own shape-altering powers still work on himself just fine.
Immunity to energy drain, ability drain and ability damage.
Immunity to mind-affecting effects.
Damage reduction 35/+4 (which isn't 3.5 compatible so keep that in mind)
Fire resistance 20.
Spell resistance 32.
Do not age, and don't need to eat, sleep or breathe.


Quite powerful. It would require some serious balancing to give them opponents that can challenge them without killing them in one hit.

[hamishspence]

There's an online conversion of Deities & Demigods to 3.5 on the WoTC site.

Quasi deity (0)- DR 10/epic
Demigod (1-5)- DR 15/epic
Lesser deity (6-10)- DR 20/epic
Intermediate deity (11-15)- DR 25/epic
Greater deity (16-20)- DR 30/epic

The Salient Divine ability Increased Damage Reduction adds +5 to the level of DR, and adds an alignment component opposed to the deity's alignment. It can only be taken once though.

So a LG deity could have DR X/epic and chaotic, or DR X/epic and evil, but would have to choose which, when taking the ability.

Deities now have fire resistance 5 + rank, not 20 + rank.

[Lysander]

This sounds like the perfect time to refluff normal classes. There's no reason why normal sorcerer levels can't be the result of divine blood in your veins. Your mother was the goddess of music? Congrats, you can sing magical songs bard level 1. If he wants to play a straight barbarian or fighter non-caster, the explanation for his astounding 18 STR can be divine ancestry. Then maybe give him an unusual physical feature like silver hair or yellow eyes as a purely aesthetic detail hinting at divine parentage.

[KingVic]

There's an online conversion of Deities & Demigods to 3.5 on the WoTC site.

I checked and I can't seem to find it anywhere (all I found was the FAQ). Could I have a link please?

[hamishspence]

Found it:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a

The Accessory Booklet comes with updates for Epic, Manual of the Planes, MM2, and Fiend Folio as well.

[2xMachina]

A rank 0 demigod has:

Maximum HP
60ft. speed (if medium and bipedal)
+13 divine bonus to AC
+Cha deflection bonus to AC
Immunity to polymorphing, petrification or any other shape-altering powers. His own shape-altering powers still work on himself just fine.
Immunity to energy drain, ability drain and ability damage.
Immunity to mind-affecting effects.
Damage reduction 35/+4 (which isn't 3.5 compatible so keep that in mind)
Fire resistance 20.
Spell resistance 32.
Do not age, and don't need to eat, sleep or breathe.


Quite powerful. It would require some serious balancing to give them opponents that can challenge them without killing them in one hit.

Wait, does baby demigods stay baby demigods?

[Yuki Akuma]

One assumes they age to whatever point matches their parent's portfolio and accrue no aging penalties or bonuses.

So the child of the God of Childhood would eternally be a child, the child of the God of Strength would probably age to his prime and stick there, and so on.

[hamishspence]

I think "do not age" is more about penalties and bonuses.

Devils are Extraplanar outsiders, which "do not age"- yet Erinyes, according to FC2, reproduce, producing baby erinyes which grow to adulthood then stop aging.

It does suggest that the most ancient devils can look a little wrinkly- which doesn't affect their stats.

[grautry]

As long as everyone is starting the same, I see no problem with starting at level 1 with Divine Rank Zero.

You can be born with a Divine Rank of zero, and it's not like you can be born with class levels.

Exactly.

If everyone else is a quasi-deity as well, your result is a campaign of starting godlings.

Also, it's a story that practically writes itself, since being a child of a deity gives you a nigh-unlimited number of plot hooks.

It shouldn't be a problem at all, as long as everyone else is also a DvR 0 deity.

[hamishspence]

Percy Jackson concept is a lot like this.

What setting is it- Greek? Norse? Core?

Might be interesting to see children of traditionally opposed gods allying.

[Idlewyld]

A rank 0 demigod has:

Maximum HP
60ft. speed (if medium and bipedal)
+13 divine bonus to AC
+Cha deflection bonus to AC
Immunity to polymorphing, petrification or any other shape-altering powers. His own shape-altering powers still work on himself just fine.
Immunity to energy drain, ability drain and ability damage.
Immunity to mind-affecting effects.
Damage reduction 35/+4 (which isn't 3.5 compatible so keep that in mind)
Fire resistance 20.
Spell resistance 32.
Do not age, and don't need to eat, sleep or breathe.


Quite powerful. It would require some serious balancing to give them opponents that can challenge them without killing them in one hit.

Only deities with 20 outsider hit dice get the +13 nat armor to AC.
The Cha bonus is a deflection bonus and doesn't stack with a ring of protection. As stated before, DR is now 10/epic and Fire resistance is 5

And they usually have one or more stats way above the norm for their race...whatever that means. When I played one, I used the stat adjustments of a half-celestial on top of really good die roles, but placed them where ever it made more sense for the character. For example, if the parental deity is the god/goddess of magic, then Int would get a +4 instead of Str. In any case, using the rules from Savage species for LA it comes out to around a +6 with all the immunities, resistances, and uneven stat adjusts. They can be glass canons if the DM isn't careful. Their used to be a real nice six level breakdown on the WotC forums so that a character wasn't SO powerful at 1st lvl. Kind of like how they broke down Stonechild in Races of Stone. I think I still have it saved somewhere. If you'd like a copy just let me know.

[Yuki Akuma]

Only deities with 20 outsider hit dice get the +13 nat armor to AC.

Hah! Wow, I totally read that part wrong. I thought it was a bit ludicrous.

I actually said the +Cha was a deflection bonus, right there, and I didn't know where to find the update for Deities and Demigods to find the updated DR. You will notice I said it was 3e-flavour DR.

[Idlewyld]

I have the PDF Deities and Demigods 3.5 errata published by WotC. If you PM me your email, I can send it to you.

[Yuki Akuma]

Er, thanks. *PM'd*

[Siosilvar]

Deities in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineCharacteristics)

Points of note:
Max HP
Move speed roughly doubled
Add Divine Rank to natural armor
Aligned weaponry
Immune to: Transmutation, Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage, Mind-Affecting
Damage Reduction 10/epic + 1 per DR (round up to nearest multiple of 5)
Spell Resistance 32 + DR
Fire Resistance 5 + DR
Immortal, doesn't age, sleep, breathe, or eat

All the rest requires a Divine Rank of 1 or more.

[ericgrau]

yeah... there's really no way to be a lvl 1 God (even divine rank 0). For instance: baby Heracles at age ~2 months old defeated (without taking damage, based on his joyfully playing with their bodies afterwards) two serpents at once, one in each hand. Even if you stat them as Tiny Vipers (I think they are supposed to have been at least Small, but accounts vary), that's still an EL 1 encounter for one character--Very Difficult at level 1. There's really just no substitute for Divine Rank--if you're a god (even a demigod), you also have more than 8 HP; get over it. Besides, what's so bad about playing it at high levels?

DVR 0 usually also comes with 1 or more exceptionally high stats, which Heracles would certainly fit into. A high strength could manage the task easily without class levels. Immunity to ability drain covers the poison. DR covers the bite damage.

Yeah, it's entirely plausible to be DVR 0 at level 1, and Siosilvar provided a helpful summary for you to pull it off. The only issue now is balancing it. Like if you want to give him LA or just higher CR encounters and have him level up faster than normal.

[KingVic]

Their used to be a real nice six level breakdown on the WotC forums so that a character wasn't SO powerful at 1st lvl. Kind of like how they broke down Stonechild in Races of Stone. I think I still have it saved somewhere. If you'd like a copy just let me know.

I have races of stone myself and I just checked this out. Now, after reading all your suggestions, It seems I have 3 options: make my freind start lvl 20, make him start lvl 1 with all the godly advantages and speed him through the levels or I could make a level progression like Stonechild and make a normal (except the godly part) and balanced campaign. I'm gonna talk with my player about this but I wanna know what you guys think.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

Brat-halla anyone?
Seriously, make it a campaign based around the ascension to deific stature.
Make them able to drop to zero but not die or some such. After all, it's not a god if it can die.

But anyway, flavor the crap out of it until they can gain divine ranks.

[StoryKeeper]

Brat-halla anyone?
Seriously, make it a campaign based around the ascension to deific stature.
Make them able to drop to zero but not die or some such. After all, it's not a god if it can die.

But anyway, flavor the crap out of it until they can gain divine ranks.

Hooray! Another Brathalla reader! Of course, if I read the thread correctly, it's a lone wolf campaign, so you can't really have all the fun of bouncing Thor of Loki (without NPC's.)

However, if you were doing a multi-PC campaign, it would be very tempting to set it up like Brathalla by simply giving each player a template that gives them access to a couple special abilities (like the half-celestial or half-fiend templates; new powers at higher levels.) That, or you could just give them the equivalent of a magic item that lets them do something normally too good for their level. Or you could just give them that power in general.

For instance, Baldur's invulnerability would be an amulet (or tattoo to represent that it can't be taken away) of stone skin with the added rule that while he can be knocked out, he can never, under any circumstances (barring mistletoe) go lower than -9 hp. So at -9 HP, Baldur has Damage Reduction Infinite/mistletoe. :D

Thor would probably just have Gauntlets of Ogre Strength and a shocking, thundering hammer.

Loki would get polymorph self at will and would probably have class levels in sorcerer with an emphasis on fire and enchantment spells.

Of course, all those powers are way too good for a bunch of 1st-level adventurers, but each person would have a distinct advantage, and they'd have to work creatively together to get through challenges. Sounds like it would be a fun campaign to run. :)

[Kobold-Bard]

I remember seeing Dr0 being given an approximated LA of +6. Obviously not for OP's game, but how does this sit with people who know more about balance than I?

[Lysander]

One explanation I've heard before for deities at low levels is that they've had their divine powers stripped or stolen somehow. Perhaps as a punishment, or a test, or the result of a divine coup. So you could make it a normal level 1 human, formerly a minor deity, who is on a quest to regain his old might. You could also go with the approach Sandman's Death takes, where she creates a human avatar of herself once a year to experience life as humans do.

[Fawsto]

One Word: Imhotep.


C'mon! It is a friggin level 20 Expert! An EXPERT!

Dude, just imagine how badass Pyramid Building was. To become a level 20 Expert Pyramid Buildind Demigod he probably built them by himself. ALONE.

Just imagine a pissed of Imhotep:

"Man, are you messing with me? Are you!? Take a look at those rocks over there, you see them!? I'll build a frigging pyramid over you, you m(*) f(*), and you will not like it!"


This is to show how much DnD godhood is bizarre. Someone please tell me how it is even possible for a level 40 character to get a over 90 str score as Thor has. It is absolutely arbitrary! It is, by definition, Over 9000!

This means that, barring shenanigans, you, being the DM, can do anything you want. Hence rule 0. Now on Godhood. Enjoy.

A level 1 God is simply a very deep case of houseruling. I would simply say "you are a God, however, you are for [insert campaign focus here] reason, deprived of your powers. Go get'em, tiger."

EDIT: NINJA'D! HARD!

[Gaiyamato]

You could do one of these:


The character is being actively hunted down by powerful beings and/or other gods and needs to lay low in order to survive long enough. Maybe also have him hunt for some artifact he needs (Orb of Aldur)?
The other Gods are dead and powerful mages rule the land. Your character is the last hope of humanity to be free of the Mage Tyrants (Thay anyone?).
Divine Rank 0 is amazingly "common" and there are evil NPCs with Divine rank 0 that will face off against him if they discover him. Maybe even entire divine organisations, both Good and evil.


Or you do some sort of combination of those.

A Barbarian Divine Rank 0 could be a fledgling Druss/Conan
A Sorcerer/Wizard Divine Rank 0 could be a fledgling Garion.
A Druid Divine Rank 0 could be a fledgling Shannara-styled Druid.

So many ways you could use this. :D

[Devils_Advocate]

Someone please tell me how it is even possible for a level 40 character to get a over 90 str score as Thor has.
Thor has an artifact belt that doubles his strength.


Now, after reading all your suggestions, It seems I have 3 options: make my freind start lvl 20, make him start lvl 1 with all the godly advantages and speed him through the levels or I could make a level progression like Stonechild and make a normal (except the godly part) and balanced campaign. I'm gonna talk with my player about this but I wanna know what you guys think.
Game balance really is not a strong point of D&D 3.X, which allows for significant differences in characters' level of power (as opposed to simply level of specialization) depending on the degree of optimization employed. The Epic and Divine rules pretty much toss balance out the window. If you want to run a balanced campaign at that power level, there are RPGs that are set up to accommodate that. The only appeal I can see in using the d20 system for such a campaign is the opportunity to explore the sheer wackiness of the ruleset. Introducing a bunch houserules to balance the game would defeat the point. (Similarly, if I wanted to play a realistic campaign, I'd just use GURPS, instead of adding piles of houserules to d20 that would generally serve to make it more GURPS-like.)