[3.5] On Outsiders

[Geiger Counter]

I'm house ruling that where demons and devils had DR overcome by good, devils DR is now overcome by chaotic weapons and demons DR is overcome by lawful weapons. I really like the idea that good creatures wether lawful or chaotic will band together when needed, but evil creatures will hate and fight eachother. Good creatures tend to hate evil creatures, but evil creatures don't necessarily hate good creatures. They might see good creatures as weak and unworthy, but they truly hate creatures who are their ideological opposites. So a devil is more willing to attack a creature of any chaotic alignment than any good alignment, and a demon is more willing to attack a creature of any lawful alignment than any good alignment. Neutral evil creatures are apolitical and are willing to do whatever gains them profit.

This song really reminds me of the NE alignment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEJ9HrZq7Ro

I recently seen the movie Dante's inferno, It is now one of my favorite movies. However one thing that is inconsistent is the mortality of souls. Apparently tons of souls are completely immortal, suffering unending tortures, however Dante was able to kill a bunch of petitioners. I am wondering what is the proper way to deal with the death of an outsider? How do you deal with it.

I noticed there are several types of outsider that really deserve their own type. First there is creatures who are basically just intelligent features of their home plane, genies fit this role to a Tee. I'm thinking they leave no bodies when they die, as their essences simply returns to their home plane. The second type is petitioners, Lexx gives a great example of how this should work. In the third season of Lexx, they found the physical locations of heaven and hell, the two planets water and fire. Humans there are not born, they simply appear without any memories. I do not believe they need to eat sleep or age. The only exception is prince who does retain his memories when he dies, but he is almost akin to a deity. I don't think either of these types of outsider should be capable of normal sexual reproduction, but they should be capable of mutating offspring, like Femto did in berserk. The third kind is biological creatures who have evolved in a plane with unusual traits, I am obliged to reclassify all these creatures as aberrations. These include aasimar, tieflings, vardragouiles, slaad, formians, aboleths, kuatoa, beholders and ilithids. Any creature that can reproduce normally (like an organism and not a being of pure essence) isn't an outsider in my books.

In planescape most devils are of the second type, where as in eberron all devils are of the first type. The native vs extraplanar subtype is very misleading. In eberron rakshasa are home to the material plane but azers are home to Fernia.

Another thing I've noticed is how much better developed good and evil outsiders are than lawful and chaotic outsiders. The Formians conquer and enslave everything in their path, this makes them LE not LN. Slaad infect people to reproduce, this makes them any evil, not CN.

How do you personally handle exemplars of the LN and CN alignments?

Also I would love to hear stories about the use of outsiders in general.

[Greenish]

I'm house ruling that where demons and devils had DR overcome by good, devils DR is now overcome by chaotic weapons and demons DR is overcome by lawful weapons. I really like the idea that good creatures wether lawful or chaotic will band together when needed, but evil creatures will hate and fight eachother. Good creatures tend to hate evil creatures, but evil creatures don't necessarily hate good creatures. They might see good creatures as weak and unworthy, but they truly hate creatures who are their ideological opposites.Wouldn't Good creatures be ideological opponents to Evil ones, too?

Anyhow, Formians don't conquer stuff because they want to rule over it, they conquer stuff because they think they have to rule over it. Motivation makes a difference.

[Edit]: Don't illithids reproduce by mutating people into their offspring?

[AslanCross]

About Outsider deaths:

Killing them really destroys their current physical form. Remember that their spirit and body are one unit (unlike the dual nature of mortals), and that they are essentially made of the same stuff as their home plane.

Fiendish Codices I and II (demons and devils respectively) say that destroying their physical form on the Material Plane is a temporary inconvenience. Demons reform in the Abyss immediately, while Devils take 99 years to reform on Baator (after which they are likely demoted.)

Killing an outsider on its home plane permanently destroys it. I think these two rules of thumb can be extrapolated into other ideological outsiders (archons, guardinals, eladrin, etc).

[Geiger Counter]

Wouldn't Good creatures be ideological opponents to Evil ones, too?

Anyhow, Formians don't conquer stuff because they want to rule over it, they conquer stuff because they think they have to rule over it. Motivation makes a difference.

[Edit]: Don't illithids reproduce by mutating people into their offspring?

Yeah, that's why I'm keeping celestial DR as bypassed by evil. I would think creatures of good might make crusades to the outerplanes, and feinds might make crusades to the upper planes, but I'm just making LE outsiders focus it's efforts against chaos and CE outsiders focus against order.

I would love to hear how you think Formian conquests should go, or the conquests of any outsider race.

Yeah, but illithid reproduction is fully biological. I mean the pure essence of an alignment or element mutating a creature.

[Geiger Counter]

bump bump bump

[KillianHawkeye]

The third kind is biological creatures who have evolved in a plane with unusual traits, I am obliged to reclassify all these creatures as aberrations. These include aasimar, tieflings, vardragouiles, slaad, formians, aboleths, kuatoa, beholders and ilithids.

Aasimar and Tieflings make no sense as aberrations. They're the descendants of outsiders.

Kuo-Toa aren't even extraplanar, much less outsiders, so I don't know why you're even including them.

Beholders and Illithids are already aberrations.

Slaadi and Formians might be something other than outsiders, but probably not aberrations. Extraplanar monstrous humanoids, maybe.

(I don't know about these vardragouiles. Do you mean Vargouilles? Heh, I didn't even know they were outsiders.)



Any creature that can reproduce normally (like an organism and not a being of pure essence) isn't an outsider in my books.

It's an interesting idea, but method of reproduction isn't the sole criterion upon which creature type is normally assigned. You also have to pay attention to what the monster looks like. :smallwink:

[Geiger Counter]

Fiendish Codices I and II (demons and devils respectively) say that destroying their physical form on the Material Plane is a temporary inconvenience. Demons reform in the Abyss immediately, while Devils take 99 years to reform on Baator (after which they are likely demoted.)

Killing an outsider on its home plane permanently destroys it. I think these two rules of thumb can be extrapolated into other ideological outsiders (archons, guardinals, eladrin, etc).

I tend to disagree with this idea. I believe it is based on misunderstanding the concept that when outsiders travel to the material realm they are merely planar energy constructs of sorts, and their real self is back on their home plane. Kill a summoned creature, no effect. Kill a called creature (like a paladin's mount) it stays dead. I see no difference between killing them on their home turf or on a different plane.

Okay first thing I'm doing for my redux of the outer planes is modifying the succubus.
She looses the chaotic subtype and gains alignment "any evil."
As she now stands she is simply a sexy killer, I want to make her powers more insidious.
She looses energy drain and ethereal jaunt.
She gains Planeshift, Atonement (for temptation) and misrepresent alignment (RoE).
She gains true seeing as a supernatural ability.
She can choose to summon a Vrock or an Osyluth or a Piscoloth.
How exactly would this affect her CR/LA?

The Succubus/Incubus is actually a single creature, it's natural form is a beautiful yet androgynous being with claws, horns, bat wings a pointed tail and can be of any skin colour (red blue green black purple). The succubi collectively are the greatest force for the lower planes in the material realm. The succubi are frequently used by their fiendish overlords as liaisons to their most powerful devotes. The succubus planeshifts from the lower planes and tries to find humanoids of great influence. She convinces that being to commit questionable moral acts until he is ready to be drawn to her alignment. Succubi (like most true outsiders in my setting) cannot give birth, however they can store genetic material and use it to impregnate women as an incubus to produce half fiends (usually with the same skin colour as it's fiendish parent). Succubi aren't all that motherly, they find their offspring merely as valuable and often take them to give to a compatible evil church, however sometimes saddling a woman with a fiend spawn is reward enough. Succubi are extremely territorial and will not stand for the presence of another of her kind in the same area (even if they have the same alignment) and will use their influence to turn the town against the new succubi. A lawful succubus might even be willing to marry, if their mate is powerful enough. To get around the fact they can't produce an heir, they will take the appearance of pregnancy then use a stolen infant as the heir.

[hamishspence]

Kill a summoned creature, no effect. Kill a called creature (like a paladin's mount) it stays dead. I see no difference between killing them on their home turf or on a different plane.


The novels would appear to disagree. Numerous times, a fiend appears on the plane through a Calling effect (such as Gate) is killed, and appears later.

Especially in the Drizzt books.

FC1 and FC2 merely cemented into the rules, notions that had been around in the D&D fiction for a long time.