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Gorbash
2010-03-02, 03:15 PM
I'm a little confused with how classes progress at 21st lvl and above. ELH states some different rules regarding BAB and Saves if you're taking the 21st lvl of a class, but what happens if you simply... multiclassed?

For example, a Bard 15/Seeker of the Song 5, just got 21st lvl and wants to take another level of the bard. Does he uses the rules mentioned in ELH or he justs takes the 16th lvl of bard and follows the rules in phb?

The Glyphstone
2010-03-02, 03:19 PM
You get everything that a 16th level bard would except BAB and saves. Those are replaced by Epic Attack Bonus and Epic Save Bonus progressions.

Tyndmyr
2010-03-02, 03:19 PM
You use epic progression once you take level 21, regardless of prior multiclassing.

It's generally better this way. Otherwise, too many partial bab classes would screw you badly.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-03-02, 08:02 PM
And yet monsters don't obey epic progression. A dragon with 40 HD has a BAB of +40. What was the reasoning behind that? Because monsters like that don't get magical equipment?

Glimbur
2010-03-02, 08:20 PM
And yet monsters don't obey epic progression. A dragon with 40 HD has a BAB of +40. What was the reasoning behind that? Because monsters like that don't get magical equipment?

It's dangerous to assume that "reasoning" was used in the creation of Epic D&D.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-03-02, 08:21 PM
And yet monsters don't obey epic progression. A dragon with 40 HD has a BAB of +40. What was the reasoning behind that? Because monsters like that don't get magical equipment?

Racial HD keep their progression. If you had a 20 HD dragon who then added 10 classes, those classes would use the epic advancement for BAB and saves instead of the dragon's normal racial HD advancements.

Also what Glimbur said. Epic's a bad joke.

Runestar
2010-03-02, 09:26 PM
The rules are quite ambiguous on this. Just about every epic monster with class lvs simply tacks on the bab/saves granted by the class lvs onto its existing stats, rather than be subjected to epic progression rules.

I am not sure if the designers simply misinterpreted the epic rules, deliberately chose to ignore them out of convenience or what.


And yet monsters don't obey epic progression. A dragon with 40 HD has a BAB of +40. What was the reasoning behind that? Because monsters like that don't get magical equipment?

Because monsters were designed based on the assumption they would be used to challenge the players, not played as a PC. So they are allowed to "break the rules" out of necessity.

If they obeyed epic rules, many would simply be too weak to properly challenge the PCs (because their attacks would be too low to hit). To resolve this, the designers would likely need to tack on more HD to further pump their bab, which brings with it a host of other problems (namely, too much hp, HD-based effects worthless).

You already see a problem of sorts with undead, which often have much more HD compared to their cr.

Conversely, PCs' bab needs to stop scaling independently after a certain stage to prevent too large disparities in their attack rating and saves, which in turn determines how much AC to give a monster of a certain cr or what the DCs of their special abilities ought to be.

For example, at lv60, the fighter would have bab+60, while the monk has bab+45. Anything the fighter can hit, the monk can't. Anything the monk can hit, the fighter will never miss.:smallsmile:

Tequila Sunrise
2010-03-02, 10:33 PM
Also what Glimbur said. Epic's a bad joke.
And that ain't no joke!

Io, the True Dragon
Io appears as the biggest dragon youíve ever seen. I know Iíve said that about the last five dragons youíve fought, but I promise I wonít say it again. Itís extra true this time. His scales, surprisingly enough, are flawless mythril plates of draconic perfection. Howíre they different from Bahamutís platinum scales and a silverís silver scales? I dunno, theyíre more shiny or something.
Really Colossal Dragon
Divine Rank: 25
Domains: Destruction, Luck, Trickery
Hit Dice: 60d12 + 1,920 (2,640)
I Go First: No, really, I have Supreme Initiative (+16)
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares), fly 300 ft. good (60 squares), swim 60 ft. (12 squares), burrow 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 131 (-8 size, +12 Dex, +25 divine, +32 deflection, +60 natural), touch 71, flat-footed 119; 75% Miss Chance
Base Attack/Grapple: +60/+133
Mm, Tasty Adventurer: Bite +109 (6d6 + 32)
I Slice and Dice Too: Bite +109 (6d6 + 32), Claws +109/+109/+104/+99/+94 (4d8 + 16), Wings +109/+109/+104/+99/+94 (4d6 + 16), Tail Slap +109 (4d8 + 48)
Space/Reach: 30 ft./30 ft. (40 ft. with bite)
Special Attacks: All-the-Other-Breath-Weapons-Were-Taken, Crush, Frightful Presence, Tail Sweep, Spells
Special Qualities: Blind Sense 60 ft., Damage Reduction 50/+10, Fast Healing 45, Iím Immune Sucka!, Keen Senses, Pffft I Donít Even Have to Roll, Spell Resistance 50
I Laugh at Your Tricks: Fort +89, Ref +69, Will +89
Donít Hate Me ĎCause Iím Perfect: Str 75, Dex 35, Con 75, Int 75, Wis 75, Cha 75
Anything You Can Do I Can Do Better: Bluff +120, Concentration +120, Diplomacy +120, Escape Artist +100, Hide +100, Intimidate +120, Knowledge (Arcane) +120, Listen +120, Move Silently +100, Search +120, Sense Motive +120, Spell Craft +120, Spot +120, Use Magic Device +120
Feats: Heighten Spell, Improved Initiative, Improved Multiattack, Improved Rapid Strike (Claws), Improved Rapid Strike (Wings), Large and in Charge, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Breath, Quicken Spell, Rapid Strike (Claws), Rapid Strike (Wings), Silent Spell, Still Spell
Epic Feats: Dire Charge, Epic Spell Casting, Improved Metamagic (3), Multispell (2)
Salient Divine Abilities: Alter Reality, Alter Form, Alter Size, Area Divine Shield, Battle Sense, Clear Sight, Control Creatures (Dragons), Divine Blast, Divine Celerity, Divine Dodge, Divine Fast Healing, Divine Glibness, Divine Spell Casting, Mass Divine Blast, Divine Shield, Free Move, Instant Counter Spell, Instant Move, Power of Luck, Power of Truth, Rejuvenation, Shape Change, Shift Form, Supreme Initiative, True Shape Change
Environment: Adamant Mountain
Organization: Silly Mortal, They Donít Know What to Do With Just One of Me
Challenge Rating: 40 + Divine Ranks = You Canít Beat Me
Treasure: Youíre Wearing My Newest Delivery
Alignment: Neutral, So You Canít Smite Me, Mwahahaha!

All-the-Other-Breath-Weapons-Were-Taken: 80 ft. cone; 40d12 minty fresh damage; Reflex half (DC 72).
Crush: See MM, page 68; Huge or smaller foe; Reflex DC 72; 6d6 + 48 damage.
Frightful Presence: See MM, page 69; 600 ft. radius; Will DC 72.
Spells: Io casts spells as a 40th level sorcerer with the metamagic specialist feature. Because heís extra special, Io has access to any spell list he wants. Spell DCs 42 + Spell Level.

Epic (6/day): True Contingent Resurrection:
True Contingent Resurrection
Necromancy [Healing] Ė (Silly mortal, conjurations that heal are stupid.)
Spell Craft DC: 92
Components: DF
Casting Time: 1 quickened action
Range: Touch
Target: You or touched creature
Duration: Contingent until expended, then instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
To Develop: Seed: life (DC 27). Factor: quickened spell (+28 DC), activates when subject dies (+25 DC), no somatic component (+2 DC), no verbal component (+2 DC), no remains required (+4 DC ad hoc), no level loss (+4 DC ad hoc).
Effect: Iím back, biatch!

Spells Iíll Never Run Out Of:
32 (2/day)
31 (2/day)
30 (2/day)
29 (2/day)
28 (3/day)
27 (3/day)
26 (3/day)
25 (3/day)
24 (4/day)
23 (4/day)
22 (4/day)
21 (4/day)
20 (5/day)
19 (5/day)
18 (5/day)
17 (5/day)
16 (6/day)
15 (6/day)
14 (6/day)
13 (6/day)
12 (7/day)
11 (7/day)
10 (7/day)
9 (12/day): Freedom, Imprisonment, Mass Heal
8 (13/day): Dimensional Lock, Greater Spell Immunity, Moment of Prescience
7 (13/day): Blasphemy, Greater Arcane Sight, Greater Restoration
6 (13/day): Antimagic Field, Disintegrate, Heal
5 (13/day): Break Enchantment, Raryís Telepathic Bond, Telekinesis, Wall of Force
4 (14/day): Bestow Curse, Greater Invisibility, Neutralize Poison, Superior Magic Fang (SC)
3 (14/day): Contagion, Haste, Magic Circle, Slow
2 (14/day): Bark Skin, Bearís Endurance, Bullís Strength, Protection from Arrows, Wraith Strike (SC)
1 (14/day): Feather Fall, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Shield, True Strike
0 (6/day): Who cares, honestly?

Tail Sweep: See MM, page 68; Large or smaller foes; 50 ft. radius; Reflex DC 72; 4d6 + 48 damage.
Damage Reduction: A weapon ignores 5 points of Ioís damage reduction per enhancement bonus it has.
Iím Immune Sucka!: Ability Damage, Ability Drain, Banishment Effects, Cold Damage, Death Effects, Disease, Disintegration, Electricity Damage, Energy Drain, Fire Damage, Imprisonment Effects, Mind-Affecting Effects, Paralysis Effects, Poison, Rebuking, Sleep Effects, Stunning, Transmutation, Turning
Pffft I Donít Even Have to Roll: Seriously, even if my bonuses werenít crazy high, Iím a freakiní overdeity. That means Iím treated as rolling a 20 on any check, saving throw or attack roll. Roll those attack rolls anyway though, I might get a critical threat! Oh and I always deal maximum damage Ė whether physical, breath weapon or spell. (Though, as if I would use a direct damage spell Ė theyíre so nooooob!)

herrhauptmann
2010-03-03, 12:32 AM
You already see a problem of sorts with undead, which often have much more HD compared to their cr.

Look at the giant spider. 40HD for a CR 12. Thank god vermin aren't popular as villains...

Runestar
2010-03-03, 12:36 AM
Look at the giant spider. 40HD for a CR 12. Thank god vermin aren't popular as villains...

They are also 1-trick ponies, with few options at their disposal. The colossal scorpion can't fly, for instance. So they really have to fall back on brute strength.

Unfortunately, this also means players will likely go all out to avoid facing them in melee (because they know they have no chance).

Plus, I am sure players will find a way to exploit their lack of an intelligence score.

I am pretty sure that with the fiendish template, 14 extra feats will go a long way towards making them more deadly...:smallcool:

Dr.Epic
2010-03-03, 12:38 AM
Oh, sorry, I thought this thread was about me.

Cyclocone
2010-03-03, 06:02 AM
...And yet, epic Clerics still get full BAB.:smallsigh:

Killer Angel
2010-03-03, 06:12 AM
...And yet, epic Clerics still get full BAB.:smallsigh:

Yes, but at that point, a epic caster that goes Clerzilla, it's for the boredom of saying "epic magic I win"... :smallamused:

Curmudgeon
2010-03-03, 06:17 AM
...And yet, epic Clerics still get full BAB.:smallsigh:
I assume you're referring to Divine Power, because this statement is wrong otherwise.
Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your character level (which may give you additional attacks)
Remember, full Base Attack Bonus (BAB) has no impact on Epic Attack Bonus (EAB). Clerics get a maximum of 20 BAB with Divine Power, and their EAB is computed the same as every other Epic character.
Epic Attack Bonus

Similarly, the characterís base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attacks at every odd-numbered level beyond 20th

Killer Angel
2010-03-03, 06:23 AM
I assume you're referring to Divine Power, because this statement is wrong otherwise.
Remember, full Base Attack Bonus (BAB) has no impact on Epic Attack Bonus (EAB). Clerics get a maximum of 20 BAB with Divine Power, and their EAB is computed the same as every other Epic character.

Reading Cyclocone's post, I also intended Divine Power, but totally missed the part regarding BAB and EAB.
Well, when RAW are involved, I don't expect anything less from you. :smallwink:

Volkov
2010-03-03, 06:53 AM
They are also 1-trick ponies, with few options at their disposal. The colossal scorpion can't fly, for instance. So they really have to fall back on brute strength.

Unfortunately, this also means players will likely go all out to avoid facing them in melee (because they know they have no chance).

Plus, I am sure players will find a way to exploit their lack of an intelligence score.

I am pretty sure that with the fiendish template, 14 extra feats will go a long way towards making them more deadly...:smallcool:

Awaken one, it will promptly go on to give your PC's permanent Etomophobia. If you really feel like being a cruel bastard, awaken a Devastation beetle and throw it at your level 12 pc's. Then make it a paragon, pseudonatural devastation beetle with magic.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-03, 08:44 AM
The Epic BAB bonus and the persistent Vigor are the most common mistakes about Clericzilla.

Not to say that clerics sucks, of course. But sometimes fear makes you loose your cool about them :smallwink:

Oslecamo
2010-03-03, 09:34 AM
Yes, but at that point, a epic caster that goes Clerzilla, it's for the boredom of saying "epic magic I win"... :smallamused:

Actualy, if epic magic is being kept in check by your DM (or outright banned), buffing yourself to hell and charging into melee is still your best plan, because everything will have insane saves and immunity to pretty much everything, but still limited HP.

Tyndmyr
2010-03-03, 10:14 AM
I assume you're referring to Divine Power, because this statement is wrong otherwise.
Remember, full Base Attack Bonus (BAB) has no impact on Epic Attack Bonus (EAB). Clerics get a maximum of 20 BAB with Divine Power, and their EAB is computed the same as every other Epic character.

Well, it sets their BaB equal to their level. Which, in this case, could be above 20. Since specific overrides general, isn't it possible that they have a base attack bonus that exceeds the normal maximum?

Of course, this would have no effect on their Epic attack bonus, if any.