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sdream
2010-03-02, 04:13 PM
My family game has been going on for a while with my brothers, and we've reached level 10.

My wife's bard dropped out around level 6 so she could play with my brother's kids while we played, but has been interested in getting back in.

Her bard had spoken draconic and had backstory of leaving home early and traveling with traders under an assumed name.

We'd like to re-introduce her to the party after we run Tomb of Horrors, but want to retcon her mechanics as having been a young dragon in alternate form.

We'd like to keep a couple levels of bard, and are cool with swapping a lot of draconic abilities for bardic skills, but I can't find any good guidelines to cut down a young dragon reasonably:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#metallicDragons
Alternate form is good, but the lowest ones start with a TON of racial hit dice and immunities and travel options.

This guy's stuff seems interesting, but perhaps overpowered compared to my fighter brother:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143910

Anyone know of an official or well used template that gives a bit of toughness, alternate form, and allows a couple class levels by 10-11 so we could retcon her bard's return smoothly?

Essential things:
- alternate form
- easily modifiable to work OK with bardic skills
- not huge, or seemingly overpowered

UN-essential things:
- does not need to be very powerful
- does not need to have or avoid flight
- don't care about fluff as written, just need stats and powers

If no-one can think of anything, I'll cut gold or silver wyrmlings HD, immunities and flight, but I'm scouting for other ideas.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-02, 04:16 PM
Dragonborn Dragonfire Adept.

BenTheJester
2010-03-02, 04:34 PM
Draconic Dragonborn Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Dragonfire Adept

Optimystik
2010-03-02, 04:36 PM
Draconic Dragonborn Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Dragonfire Adept

Needs more dragon.
I almost wrote "desu"

faceroll
2010-03-02, 04:53 PM
Draconic Dragonborn Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Dragonfire Adept

I think you can squeeze dragonspawn, dragon disciple and half dragon in there, and dragon totem barbarian. Maybe weredragon?

TroubleBrewing
2010-03-02, 04:58 PM
so far as i know, "weredragon" is impossible (but awesome). the base animal must be of the animal type, at least according to MM1.

if theres a correction somewhere, i'd be interested to see it. ive been aching to play a were-mantis. :smalltongue:

DragoonWraith
2010-03-02, 04:58 PM
The alternate form, I think, is likely to be the hardest part. Most PC ways of getting Draconic features are fairly permanent. You could always add a simple Alternate Form effect to hide them, though.

Silverbrow Human (Dragon Magic) has draconic flavor, and Draconic feats can be taken to get the desired level of dragon-ness. Draconic Wings most notably, probably.

As mentioned, Dragonborn of Bahamut (Races of the Dragon) works well. Spellscales from the same book might as well (Cha bonus, too, though it's really not worth the Con penalty).

Eldan
2010-03-02, 05:00 PM
You can still be a were-Komodo dragon or dragonfish!

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-02, 05:04 PM
so far as i know, "weredragon" is impossible (but awesome). the base animal must be of the animal type, at least according to MM1.

if theres a correction somewhere, i'd be interested to see it. ive been aching to play a were-mantis. :smalltongue:

There's a Were-Vermin template in WotC's archives.

Eldan
2010-03-02, 05:05 PM
In that case, there will also be were-dragonflies.

Draz74
2010-03-02, 05:11 PM
In that case, there will also be were-dragonflies.

Ooh, now that I'd like to play. :smallbiggrin:

Person_Man
2010-03-02, 05:17 PM
Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries (a mediocre Monk-ish PrC from Draconimicon) gets the ability to turn into a Dragon as it's capstone ability (ECL 16). You also get decent SR, Evasion, decent Unarmed Damage, and a few other things. Also, anyone with access to Polymorph.

Runestar
2010-03-02, 06:09 PM
In that case, there will also be were-dragonflies.

CHANGE...DRAGONFLY! :smallbiggrin:

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-03-02, 08:57 PM
Half-Dragon changeling?

EDIT: Also, I'm not sure this will help you much for this specific issue, but I always have fun "flipping" through the index of templates (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Templates.pdf). Good luck!

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-02, 09:00 PM
Weredragon is doable just outside of raw, the trick is that you'll have to ad-hoc the LA because the +2/+3 of the RAW lycanthrope is gonna be way too low for a weredragon.

Runestar
2010-03-02, 09:14 PM
Aren't weredragons the song dragons in 3e?

Pluto
2010-03-03, 01:29 AM
Edit: Bard. Right.

Dragonwrought Kobold with the Alter Self spell.

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-03, 01:54 AM
If all you want is an alternate form and care little for the fluff, I think you're better off homebrewing it.

There are a number of Animal type creatures with the dragonblood subtype in Dragon Magic if you're looking for a RAW lycanthropy that gives an alternate draconic form.

Drakkensteed is a pretty good candidate with a mere 4 HD. The Huitzil has only 1 HD, though I'd refluff the creature significantly for the purposes you're proposing.

The dragonblood subtype offers a fair amount of options as well, including acquiring a breath weapon and other features through feats. I believe lycanthropy would include acquisition of the type. If not, there's a feat to acquire the subtype as well (though I don't think it would be a big deal to allow it for free along with the lycanthropy)

obnoxious
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sdream
2010-03-03, 11:39 AM
Thank you all for your ideas, but it sounds like homebrew is the way to go.

I cut down a gold wymling to 2hd and +3 LA: (total +5 ECL)
- 1/day alternate form, can resume medium wyrmling dragon form anytime
- in dragon form, has water breathing, run, swim, and darkvision 60'
- in dragon form, immature wings allow Levitate as a full round action
- in dragon form, AC 17, d8 bite, 2 d6 claws (dropped the wing attacks)
- 1d10 Fire DC14 breath 20' cone
- fire immunity, cold weakness (volcanic undersea nests)
- +4 str, +2 con
- 2 d12 dragon hit dice
- 2 levels of dragon skill points
- +2 dragon BAB

Does that look OK in terms of low power for the LA?

What should I do about saves?

DragoonWraith
2010-03-03, 11:47 AM
No, it doesn't. The LA is fricking huge! 5 levels is a ton. Plus you have 2 RHD? Yowch. You have a level 7 character with 2d12+Con hp, +2 BAB, and a series of very weak or limited abilities.

For that level adjustment/racial hit dice, you should (easily) have very good flight all the time, alternate form at will, much better ability modifiers, your breath weapon DC ought to be ability-based, you should have the natural armor, water breathing, run, swim, and darkvision all the time, and probably some more, besides.

LA +5 is almost unplayable. The 2 RHD, even Dragon RHD, hurt, especially for a Bard. I'd aim for LA +1 or +2, +3 at the very most, and I'd limit it to only one Dragon RHD.

Alternatively, more Dragon RHD, but make them progress Bardic Music or Bardic Spellcasting. But the one it doesn't progress is going to get quite hurt by that.

Kobold-Bard
2010-03-03, 12:10 PM
I can offer the Dragon Incarnate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124492) made by Belial The Leveler.

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-03-03, 12:12 PM
LA +5 is almost unplayable.

I played a character with a LA of +8 once. Onyx Regnorak, the Half-Dragon Stonechild. I was level 10 without a class and the party tank. I suppose high LAs are a much bigger problem with casters/second string combatants though, huh? Well, the character was really fun at any rate. (Especially while mocking the Duskblade:smallbiggrin:)

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-03, 12:22 PM
I played a character with a LA of +8 once. Onyx Regnorak, the Half-Dragon Stonechild. I was level 10 without a class and the party tank. I suppose high LAs are a much bigger problem with casters/second string combatants though, huh? Well, the character was really fun at any rate. (Especially while mocking the Duskblade:smallbiggrin:)

Except you are the literal definition of a Glass Cannon: One good hit and your character is going to die. All that DR and Natural Armor is meaningless against the right effects or a lucky/prepared opponent, as they can go straight for your lowest save or your character level itself.

Seriously, you had, what, 2 HD at ECL 10? Compared to a proper CR 10 encounter, you were little more than a speed bump. I'm honestly surprised that you didn't get offed by a lucky Crit.

faceroll
2010-03-03, 12:31 PM
Thank you all for your ideas, but it sounds like homebrew is the way to go.

I cut down a gold wymling to 2hd and +3 LA: (total +5 ECL)
- 1/day alternate form, can resume medium wyrmling dragon form anytime
- in dragon form, has water breathing, run, swim, and darkvision 60'
- in dragon form, immature wings allow Levitate as a full round action
- in dragon form, AC 17, d8 bite, 2 d6 claws (dropped the wing attacks)
- 1d10 Fire DC14 breath 20' cone
- fire immunity, cold weakness (volcanic undersea nests)
- +4 str, +2 con
- 2 d12 dragon hit dice
- 2 levels of dragon skill points
- +2 dragon BAB

Does that look OK in terms of low power for the LA?

What should I do about saves?

I'd change it to 3 RHD and 2 LA, if the other plays are optimized. If the wizard just likes to toss fireballs and the fighter is looking forward to getting super weapon specialization, you're probably fine with that.

sdream
2010-03-03, 12:32 PM
Ok, so start the other direction then, with the half dragon template for 3 LA.

The stat boosts are much heftier, and the breath weapon is significant, if once a day. Also they get the immunity without the vulnerability.

How would you feel about slapping on 1 dragon HD to get the 1/day alternate form, water breathing, levitate, a BAB and dragon skills?

Still very underpowered?

The other players are warlock with mage cohort, fighter with wizard cohort, druid with large wolf Animal companion in magic armor.

Hmm just reading that list, makes me want to press much harder for better stuff. A bard is pretty under par before we start skipping levels. (although fireball is my brother's favorite spell, and he's a longsword specialized dual weapon fighter)

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-03, 12:44 PM
Ok, so start the other direction then, with the half dragon template for 3 LA.

The stat boosts are much heftier, and the breath weapon is significant, if once a day. Also they get the immunity without the vulnerability.

How would you feel about slapping on 1 dragon HD to get the 1/day alternate form, water breathing, levitate, a BAB and dragon skills?

Still very underpowered?

The other players are warlock with mage cohort, fighter with wizard cohort, druid with large wolf Animal companion in magic armor.

On a bard? Yes. Half-Dragon isn't worth 3 levels (even with the Large Size). The ability to breath water costs about a feat (probably less, considering it's a racial trait). The Breath Weapon is also a Racial Trait (Dragonborn get a 6d8 Breath Weapon once every 1d4 rounds, it slowly scales up from 1st to 20th).

Levitate+Stat bonuses is worth a +2 LA. Hell, barely that. Flight is a freaking LA0 Racial Trait (or a Feat).

sdream
2010-03-03, 12:56 PM
So I should press for half dragon with waterbreathing, levitate, and alternate form as far less than "you all have cohorts and I'm a bard" tax?

What Feats would go well for a 7th - 8th level bard with the half dragon template? (that's 7 bard levels and 3 template levels)

She had melodic casting, weapon dex, and obtain familiar before.

The melodic casting and familiar should probably stay (just for story reasons).

faceroll
2010-03-03, 01:02 PM
Ok, so start the other direction then, with the half dragon template for 3 LA.

The stat boosts are much heftier, and the breath weapon is significant, if once a day. Also they get the immunity without the vulnerability.

How would you feel about slapping on 1 dragon HD to get the 1/day alternate form, water breathing, levitate, a BAB and dragon skills?

Still very underpowered?

Yes.

Here's what I would do:
Song Dragon
Small Dragon
3HD +2LA
+2 str +2 con +2 cha
Breath weapon:
2d6 energy damage (whatever you think is appropriate), reflex 10+1/2 HD+con modifier every 1d4 rounds, 15' cone or 30' line, add 1d6 damage for every odd HD it gains (3d6 with 5 HD, up to 10d6 at 19 HD, which is ECL 21).
Casts spells as a 1st level bard (stacks with bardic casting)
Sings songs as a 1st level bard (stacks with bardic music)
2 claws 1d4
Bite 1d6
Movement: land 20', fly 30' average


Let's compare to a 5th level bard:
Average rolled HP for bard will be 20, average for the dragon will be 25+3. Note the high variance on rolling 2d12, however. It's quite likely to end up with a lot less HP with one lame roll.
BAB of 5th level bard = 3.75, BAB of song dragon = 3
Skill points (assuming int of 10)
Bard = 48, max ranks 8. Dragon = 48, max ranks 6
The dragon has a wider range of skills it is good at, but is less good at those particular skills.

The dragon gets a breath weapon, which could easily be mimicked by a warlock without the cool down, or a 6th level caster and a reserve feat, again without the cool down, or a dragon shaman, again, without a cooldown. Also note that the dragon is two levels behind on a bonus feat. This is a big deal.

The dragon gets greatly stunted casting. A couple 0 level spells a day are pretty cool, but the 5th level bard is getting 2nd level spells, which are a big part of the bard's repertoire, especially if you use the spell compendium. Being 4 levels behind in casting is very noticeable.

The dragon does get two claws and a bite, a small str and con bonus, making it a decent melee combatant. Compared to any full BAB class of 5th level, it's not going to be doing much. It's about monk level in effective damage output, and a melee oriented bard will be strictly better, thanks to having another feat to work with at level 6, and 2nd level spells. Note that it also doesn't get proficiency with armor or have any armor, meaning it should stay back until it can get a level.

The flight can be problematic outside, but at fifth level, the wizard can already cast a fly spell. In doors, average maneuverability won't always cut it.

I would say it's a little on the strong side for an unoptimized 5th level character, but any dedicated melee build, skill monkey, or caster will outshine it. I would rank it below a 5th level bard, but that's because I don't put a high premium on natural attacks, and it lacks the armor (natural or otherwise) to really mix it up. At 10th level, unless it goes bard gish, it will be decidedly weaker than the rest of the party. The natural flight will be helpful at all levels, and it could always go into something like sublime chord or pump its singing abilities.

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-03-03, 01:30 PM
Except you are the literal definition of a Glass Cannon: One good hit and your character is going to die. All that DR and Natural Armor is meaningless against the right effects or a lucky/prepared opponent, as they can go straight for your lowest save or your character level itself.

Seriously, you had, what, 2 HD at ECL 10? Compared to a proper CR 10 encounter, you were little more than a speed bump. I'm honestly surprised that you didn't get offed by a lucky Crit.

Yeah, it was probably mostly luck, but I think I got hit a grand total of 5 times that entire campaign. REALLY high dex so i almost always went first. Onyx was about as far from an optimized character as you can get, but I always liked playing characters who weren't impenetrable. The way Onyx saw it, if he got hit he deserved for it to hurt. lol. (To each his own, right?:smallsmile:)

Oslecamo
2010-03-03, 03:04 PM
This guy's stuff seems interesting, but perhaps overpowered compared to my fighter brother:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143910


Yay my work is spreading! But yes, it's aimed at medium-high powered campaigns, and thus would probably outshine an unoptimized fighter.

But feel free to drop the BAB, stat increases and/or HD size of my classes untill it reaches the power level you want. A d4 HD with poor BAB would have an harder time outshining your brother I bet. Also just did the silver dragon here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8002450&postcount=108).

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-04, 04:54 AM
Give the player alternate form of a dragon with an ECL equal to character level. Bam.

obnoxious
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