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BenTheJester
2010-03-02, 08:04 PM
I remember seeing this monster somewhere, but I can't find it.

My google-fu failed me, and they don't seem to be in any MM

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-02, 08:07 PM
It's a swarm.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/monsters

Tome of Magic, p87

I'll take this opportunity to comment on how much I hate the 3-book format of the Tome of Magic.

obnoxious
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Bibliomancer
2010-03-02, 08:07 PM
It's in the Tome of Magic.

Edit: Ninjaed!

Anyways, it's in the Pact Magic section, and is associated with Malphax the Turnfeather (level 2 vestige). The swarm is CR 2, I believe.

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-03-02, 08:10 PM
This doesn't really add anything, but I just wanted to say that I love that a group of crows is referred to as a "murder."

sofawall
2010-03-02, 08:11 PM
I'll take this opportunity to comment on how much I hate the 3-book format of the Tome of Magic.

obnoxious
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I agree with you. It bugs me every time I use it.

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-02, 08:14 PM
This doesn't really add anything, but I just wanted to say that I love that a group of crows is referred to as a "murder."

Apparently we owe this to James Lipton's book An Exaltation of Larks.

obnoxious
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Mystic Muse
2010-03-02, 08:16 PM
This doesn't really add anything, but I just wanted to say that I love that a group of crows is referred to as a "murder."

Definitely agreed.:smallbiggrin:

Thurbane
2010-03-02, 08:26 PM
I agree with you. It bugs me every time I use it.
I like what they tried to do with ToM, and I don't have a problem with the format as such...but since Shadow Magic and Truenaming both came out quite wonky, I'd rather have had just a full book of Binding. If they could make a full book of Incarnum, I see no reason Binding couldn't have been similar.

...in fact, I would have liked to see a ToM II, which fixed the problems, and added extra stuff to boot...

C'est la vie. :smallfrown:

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-03-02, 08:34 PM
I like what they tried to do with ToM, and I don't have a problem with the format as such...but since Shadow Magic and Truenaming both came out quite wonky, I'd rather have had just a full book of Binding. If they could make a full book of Incarnum, I see no reason Binding couldn't have been similar.

...in fact, I would have liked to see a ToM II, which fixed the problems, and added extra stuff to boot...

C'est la vie. :smallfrown:

Seconded. I love the Binder class. I also like the idea of truename magic,(i.e Rhapsody) but it's such a this-does-whatever-the-author-says-it-does kind of ability that translating it into an RPG is difficult at best.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-03-02, 08:36 PM
I agree with you. It bugs me every time I use it.Or you know there could just be no format at all because every player wants his book arranged by random fluff (*cough*-ive natio-*cough*)

Dungeon and dragon mags are even worse :smallmad:

sonofzeal
2010-03-02, 10:25 PM
This doesn't really add anything, but I just wanted to say that I love that a group of crows is referred to as a "murder."
Even better (to me) is that a group of ravens is a "conspiracy".

And a group of boar is a "singularity" for some reason...

Shas aia Toriia
2010-03-02, 10:32 PM
And a group of boar is a "singularity" for some reason...

Is it actually?
That's incredible! :smallbiggrin:

Scorpions__
2010-03-02, 10:41 PM
I do like that Tome of Magic and Tome of Battle have similar page layouts though, makes sure they're not on their own on the shelf... Sorry, I see my books as children... that need friends...

Naw, but I do like the match.






DM[F]R

Anxe
2010-03-03, 12:24 AM
When I first saw the title I thought it said Murder of Cows. And then you guys started talking about swarms, so I thought it was a special type of magical cow swarm. I'm gonna go make that as an actual encounter now. A blood-sucking Cow swarm.

Thurbane
2010-03-03, 12:29 AM
Murder of cows is traditionally the domain of curious extra-terrestrials. :smallbiggrin:

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-03, 03:37 AM
I like what they tried to do with ToM, and I don't have a problem with the format as such...but since Shadow Magic and Truenaming both came out quite wonky, I'd rather have had just a full book of Binding. If they could make a full book of Incarnum, I see no reason Binding couldn't have been similar.

...in fact, I would have liked to see a ToM II, which fixed the problems, and added extra stuff to boot...

C'est la vie. :smallfrown:

I dislike that the monsters (and everything) are split into three sections, so if I want to look up a critter from the book, I need to know which sub-book it's in. The Tome of Magic is really three splatbooks in the traditional sense wrapped up in a hard cover and pretending to be a single unit.

I agree on the binding. There's a fair amount of extra binding stuff from Dragon as I recall. It would be nice to have it gathered together in a single book.

But while I'm making wishes I may as well wish for full compendia of feats, spells, skill uses, skill tricks, alchemical and mundane items, magic items, etc from all official WOTC books, published adventures, campaign settings, web enhancements, articles, Dungeon and Dragon magazines, and other official sources I may have forgotten.

Encyclopedia Magica (2e) and the old spell compendia spoiled me.

obnoxious
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Mulletmanalive
2010-03-03, 08:28 AM
The Tome of Magic is really three splatbooks in the traditional sense wrapped up in a hard cover and pretending to be a single unit.



See, I always thought that was the point. The seperate monsters did a much better job of allowing you to just slot one of the modules into a campaign as it came with some nice background stuff to introduce so that the spellcaster didn't seem like a unique and out of place individual [see Firebender classes and the like being homebrewed, then used in conventional D&D].

I always felt that one of the issues with TOB was the lack of additional material [Monsters, maps, encounters etc] that could just be slotted in to make the martial arts seem like a fundamental part of the setting rather than a tacked on after-though. Hell, they didn't even give any suggestions on how to retool monsters to have Martial rather than Magical powers...

Foryn Gilnith
2010-03-03, 08:32 AM
In Tome of Magic, there are only really three places you need to search, and they're pretty self-evident. Middle-back of the Truenaming section if it uses Truenaming. Mdidle-back of the Shadowcasting section if it's dark. Middle-back of the Binding section otherwise.

Contrast to, say, City of Stormreach.

Thurbane
2010-03-03, 01:50 PM
...and Cityscape, where the three PrCs in the book are in seperate chapters.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-03, 01:58 PM
Not a great foe, but if somebody came up with a non-undead version of Swarm template, one could possibly create an Itachi-Esq PC?

Greenish
2010-03-03, 02:03 PM
Not a great foe, but if somebody came up with a non-undead version of Swarm template, one could possibly create an Itachi-Esq PC?Murder of Crows is a valid "base animal" for lycanthropy.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-03, 02:05 PM
Murder of Crows is a valid "base animal" for lycanthropy.

hold on....

so someone could do basically a:

Race: Human Were-Murder of Crows
Class: Swordsage 5/Sorcerer 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 10

and be Itachi-San?!

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-03, 02:05 PM
Not a great foe, but if somebody came up with a non-undead version of Swarm template, one could possibly create an Itachi-Esq PC?

Someone over BG stat most of the naruto Characters, he uses psionics though and IIRC Itachi was an epic level build.

Greenish
2010-03-03, 02:10 PM
hold on....

so someone could do basically a:

Race: Human Were-Murder of Crows
Class: Swordsage 5/Sorcerer 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 10

and be Itachi-San?!Or someone could make level 7 chicken-infested commoner and call him Itachi. Your build is on epic levels, by the way, due murder RHD.

[Edit]: Murder of Crows is also tiny, so you'd need small-sized base humanoid.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-03, 02:14 PM
Or someone could make level 7 chicken-infested commoner and call him Itachi. Your build is on epic levels, by the way, due murder RHD.

? I thought a Were-X had only 2-3 LA.

and DO NOT bring Chicken Infested into this! I died to a DM's idea of an "easy fight" at epic: a Gestalt Commoner/Focused Specialist//Focused Necromancer/Archmage who made an army of exploding undead chickens who caused a near TPK

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-03, 02:17 PM
? I thought a Were-X had only 2-3 LA.


Lycanthropes have the animal's RHD added plus LA +2 (if infected) or LA +3 if they are natural lycanthropes

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-03, 02:20 PM
Lycanthropes have the animal's RHD added plus LA +2 (if infected) or LA +3 if they are natural lycanthropes

... Owie, my soul.......

Besides, what's its RHD? Maybe 5?

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-03-03, 02:36 PM
Besides, what's its RHD? Maybe 5?

Looks like 4.

Also quick question: Is murder of crows a valid option for a familiar? Cuz that'd be pretty cool. (I'm little fuzzy on familiars cuz I always give them up for other options.)

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-03, 02:38 PM
Looks like 4.

so 4 RHD and at minimus 2la. I can handle that actually...

For the pseudo-Itachi-san ability to become a swarm of crows, I vote a yes to Were-Murder of Crows

Greenish
2010-03-03, 02:40 PM
so 4 RHD and at minimus 2la. I can handle that actually...

For the pseudo-Itachi-san ability to become a swarm of crows, I vote a yes to Were-Murder of CrowsIs this Itachi fella a hobbit by any chance?

(Since medium creature such as human can't be used with tiny creature such as the murder for a lycanthrope, RAW.)

[Edit]:
Also quick question: Is murder of crows a valid option for a familiar? Cuz that'd be pretty cool. (I'm little fuzzy on familiars cuz I always give them up for other options.)As far as I know, only critters that are valid familiars are those that are specifically mentioned somewhere.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-03, 02:41 PM
Is this Itachi fella a hobbit by any chance?

(Since medium creature such as human can't be used with tiny creature such as the murder for a lycanthrope, RAW.)

each crow is a tiny creature, and many would be "medium"

If anything, he'd be a Whisper Gnome

Greenish
2010-03-03, 02:45 PM
each crow is a tiny creature, and many would be "medium"The swarm has size: tiny.

Whisper Gnomes are rather awesome though.

Sliver
2010-03-03, 02:50 PM
so 4 RHD and at minimus 2la. I can handle that actually...

For the pseudo-Itachi-san ability to become a swarm of crows, I vote a yes to Were-Murder of Crows

Take the 3LA for at will controlled transformation. Transforming uncontrollably at full moon or taking the skill to control it, trying to change and going berserk is not the most wanted event.. Also, it's a good DR value together with the swarm immunities, except the area attack vulnerability..

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-03, 02:53 PM
But that LA+RHD is +7. Ow...

I'm willing to burn sp for Control Shape

Here's a "Ninja" who at 20th uses the full power of this build...

Race: Whisper Gnome Were-Murder of Crows
Class: HD 4/LA 1/Rogue 5/Assassin 10

He kills the poor sap, then becomes his crow form and disappears

Sliver
2010-03-03, 02:59 PM
But that LA+RHD is +7. Ow...

I'm willing to burn sp for Control Shape

Here's a "Ninja" who at 20th uses the full power of this build...

Race: Whisper Gnome Were-Murder of Crows
Class: HD 4/LA 1/Rogue 5/Assassin 10

He kills the poor sap, then becomes his crow form and disappears

Level drain those HD away!

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-03, 03:00 PM
Level drain those HD away!

huh? What are you talking about?

Sliver
2010-03-03, 03:03 PM
huh? What are you talking about?

Get hit with energy drain, wait 24 hours, fail the save, lose one HD. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Energy_Drain,_Negative_Levels,_and_Level_Loss)

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-03, 03:05 PM
Get hit with energy drain, wait 24 hours, fail the save, lose one HD. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Energy_Drain,_Negative_Levels,_and_Level_Loss)

thats....broken to say the least dude...

Sliver
2010-03-03, 03:10 PM
So? It's Itachi. Who cares if it's broken? :smalltongue:

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-03, 03:10 PM
So? It's Itachi. Who cares if it's broken? :smalltongue:

excellent point. Hmmmmmmmm....Maybe I should run the build without the RHD by my buddy....

Thurbane
2010-03-03, 04:26 PM
So this Hitachi guy turns into a bunch of crows...like Madonna in the Frozen video clip? :smallbiggrin:

Nate the Snake
2010-03-03, 11:04 PM
I'm not sure how I feel about the fact that the lycanthrope template allows swarms as the base animal (probably :smallconfused:), but in any case it brings up an interesting question:

What would the hybrid form of a were-murder-of-crows look like?

Flickerdart
2010-03-03, 11:15 PM
If you want Itachi, you need to Ocular Spell absolutely everything, though. Especially an Ocular Phantasmal Killer.

Hybrid form would probably be like a Worm That Walks, only with crows. A Crow That Walks.

Nate the Snake
2010-03-04, 06:50 PM
Hybrid form would probably be like a Worm That Walks, only with crows. A Crow That Walks.

:smalleek:
Yikes. Thanks for that mental image. And I'm still not sure how that would even work.

Also, rules issue:

The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.

If I'm reading this right, you don't gain the swarm subtype from an alternate form. So you turn into a swarm that isn't a swarm. :smallconfused:

Volkov
2010-03-04, 07:13 PM
You'd still have that LA, just because you lost those racial hit dice doesn't mean it automatically goes away.

Flickerdart
2010-03-04, 07:19 PM
Well yeah, you have a point of LA, but once you lose those HD (and fail the save at the end of the day) they're gone for good and you're a legitimately lower-level character.

Volkov
2010-03-04, 07:23 PM
Well yeah, you have a point of LA, but once you lose those HD (and fail the save at the end of the day) they're gone for good and you're a legitimately lower-level character.

That 3 LA isn't going away by RAW. So you still are going to be treated as three levels higher than you really are.

Flickerdart
2010-03-04, 07:31 PM
If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ draining creature’s racial HD + draining creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level goes away, but the creature’s level is also reduced by one.

It's pretty clear that you lose the level, with all that entails. Not "you still count as a higher-level character". The level's gone. Energy drain doesn't convert it into a point of LA; there's nothing that even remotely implies that.

Volkov
2010-03-04, 07:31 PM
It's pretty clear that you lose the level, with all that entails. Not "you still count as a higher-level character". The level's gone. Energy drain doesn't convert it into a point of LA; there's nothing that even remotely implies that.

The LA doesn't drop with the RHD either.

Flickerdart
2010-03-04, 07:42 PM
I'm talking about RHD, not LA. The LA, you buy off.

Upon rereading your original comment, I realize that I have misinterpreted it. Silly me. But still, LA buyoff.

Volkov
2010-03-04, 07:46 PM
I'm talking about RHD, not LA. The LA, you buy off.

So by RAW, you could do this trick with a pit fiend to be a level one creature with very high ability scores, powerful SLAs, a high armor class, regen, DR, Super deadly poison, Diseased Claws, flight, high ground speed, reach, amongst other things?

Yeah this is the kind of cheese I'd beat you into unconsciousness with a metal baseball bat for trying.

Flickerdart
2010-03-04, 07:48 PM
No, because Pit Fiend has no listed LA, which means it's not intended for players. You also can't buy off more than 3 LA pre-epic.

Thurbane
2010-03-04, 07:49 PM
I would be interested to see the wording/logic that says when you have RHD burned off by draining, that you don't have to replace them all when you gain XP before you can take actual class levels.

Flickerdart
2010-03-04, 08:04 PM
There is nothing that implies you have to do that, or indeed that you can take Racial Hit Dice instead of class levels. When you're drained of a level HD, you don't have to take the same level as you had lost.

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-03-04, 08:11 PM
There is nothing that implies you have to do that, or indeed that you can take Racial Hit Dice instead of class levels. When you're drained of a level HD, you don't have to take the same level as you had lost.

My question is do you get to choose which levels are drained? I always thought it went in the reverse order that you earned them.

Thurbane
2010-03-04, 08:19 PM
Seems extremely wonky to me, and more of a DM call than anything. I don't think omission of contradictory RAW makes it automatically "legal".

If it is, then expect the DM to throw some mighty powerful opposition your way...what's good for the goose if good for the gander. Bearing in mind how wonky the CR already can be, it's going to be just as easy (probably easier) for the DM to rort this as it is for a player.

Also, make sure you trust whoever/whatever is doing the draining, so that will only drain you down to 1HD and not snuff out your lifeforce altogether. Bearing in mind most energy drainers are evil.

RAI is another thing altogether. Why would they have even built RHD into the game if it could be "handwaved" away so easily? Sure, the RHD/LA system is pretty far from optimal, but this just seems like outright abuse.

...anyhow, if that's how it is in your games, no problemo, but I would be genuinely surprised if most DMs let this pass.

Flickerdart
2010-03-04, 08:36 PM
My question is do you get to choose which levels are drained? I always thought it went in the reverse order that you earned them.
You don't. So you square off against a Wight with X RHD, and come out with one. Then you gain class levels to your heart's content.


Seems extremely wonky to me, and more of a DM call than anything. I don't think omission of contradictory RAW makes it automatically "legal".

If it is, then expect the DM to throw some mighty powerful opposition your way...what's good for the goose if good for the gander. Bearing in mind how wonky the CR already can be, it's going to be just as easy (probably easier) for the DM to rort this as it is for a player.

Also, make sure you trust whoever/whatever is doing the draining, so that will only drain you down to 1HD and not snuff out your lifeforce altogether. Bearing in mind most energy drainers are evil.

RAI is another thing altogether. Why would they have even built RHD into the game if it could be "handwaved" away so easily? Sure, the RHD/LA system is pretty far from optimal, but this just seems like outright abuse.

...anyhow, if that's how it is in your games, no problemo, but I would be genuinely surprised if most DMs let this pass.
It has nothing to do with DMs. It's TO. Can you do this by RAW? Yes, because the rules don't note RHD as explicit exceptions to themselves. Is it abuse? Yes, but so is Metamagic discounts, Loredrake shenanigans, drowning to heal yourself, and so on, up to the mighty Pun-Pun. Just because most DMs would never let you do it doesn't mean the rules don't.

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-03-04, 08:57 PM
You don't. So you square off against a Wight with X RHD, and come out with one. Then you gain class levels to your heart's content.

Ah, I see.... duh. I should have realized that you'd do it before taking class levels....facepalm for myself.

Thurbane
2010-03-04, 09:02 PM
The rules also don't specifically say you can't use Profession (Miner) to obtain Uranium, or Profession (Engineer) to refine it to weapons grade and create a delivery/detonation device. Sometimes common sense is the best "RAW" of them all...

But yes, in a game where drown-healing and Pun Pun are kosher, I can't see a problem with level draining away those pesky RHD. :smallwink:

Greenish
2010-03-04, 09:05 PM
The rules also don't specifically say you can't use Profession (Miner) to obtain Uranium, or Profession (Engineer) to refine it to weapons grade and create a delivery/detonation device. Sometimes common sense is the best "RAW" of them all...There are no rules for weak or strong atomic forces, hence atomic bombs won't work.

But yes, in a game where drown-healing and Pun Pun are kosher, I can't see a problem with level draining away those pesky RHD. :smallwink:"TO" stand for theoretical optimization. As in, not used in actual games. :smallamused:

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-03-04, 09:08 PM
(I)n a game where drown-healing and Pun Pun are kosher, I can't see a problem with level draining away those pesky RHD. :smallwink:

Well, it worked for Mario in 64 :smallbiggrin:

Flickerdart
2010-03-04, 10:07 PM
The rules also don't specifically say you can't use Profession (Miner) to obtain Uranium, or Profession (Engineer) to refine it to weapons grade and create a delivery/detonation device.
There are no rules for crafting nuclear devices. There are no rules for locating a specific mineral or element. There ARE rules for using Profession skills for making money, and there are some exceptions (Prof: Sailor or Siege Engineer) that are explicitly spelled out as letting you do stuff. Your argument makes no sense.

Thurbane
2010-03-04, 10:45 PM
...OK, I think both of us are not "getting" the other person's argument. I was trying to say that omission of RAW against something doesn't make it legitimate under the rules - perhaps my example was flawed, although I'm not convinced it isn't the exact same type argument that you are using (i.e. no contradictory rules == rules legal).

If you think level draining RHD and replacing them with class levels through XP is rules legal, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I hope I'm not coming off as uneccessarily adversarial here, but I am disagreeing with your conclusion. Theoretical optimization is far from my strong suit, so I readily acknowledge I may be missing something crucial here...

Flickerdart
2010-03-04, 11:08 PM
...OK, I think both of us are not "getting" the other person's argument. I was trying to say that omission of RAW against something doesn't make it legitimate under the rules - perhaps my example was flawed, although I'm not convinced it isn't the exact same type argument that you are using (i.e. no contradictory rules == rules legal).
My argument: There are rules that allow a certain action to be performed. They do not spell out the particular application of that action as being illegal, therefore no such exception exists. All exceptions for rules are spelled out somewhere.
Your argument: The rules don't address a certain action at all. Therefore, the action must be allowed.

The difference is that the first is within RAW, and thus requires a listed exception before it can be proclaimed illegal. The latter isn't RAW, and so doesn't need an exception: you can't do it. If Profession (Miner) allowed you, by RAW, to mine for metals, and Profession (Engineer) allowed you to craft bombs, then your argument would be valid. However, they do not. Allowing them to do so is a house rule, and has no place in a RAW discussion.

However, the Energy Drain ability can be used to drain levels, permanently. RHD are a type of level, conferring every benefit and drawback a level carries with it, with the exception that they are racial, and not class, levels. Energy Drain makes no mention of non-class levels being exempt to its influence (indeed, if they were, then all monsters would be immune to Energy Drain unless the DM gave them class levels). Therefore, they are not exempt. Making them exempt would constitute a house rule.

Thurbane
2010-03-04, 11:22 PM
OK then, now I see your point. Sorry for any misunderstanding.