(3.5) Thoughts on Nosomatic Chirurgeon?

[FishAreWet]

It's a class from Dragonmarked. The most notable ability is to trade out SLAs for Inflict spells of the same level. Combined with Invocations, this is strong. Combined with Mastery of the Day and Night(PgtE), which maximizes the Inflicts, it becomes very strong. 8 Ranks in heal make the entry difficult, but luckily we have the Glimmerskin Halfling from Dragon Magic to add that in-class. I realize I'm not the first to come up with this, but using Enthralling Voice and getting to it by level 6 is something I've never seen. Even if it's somewhat known, I'm probably helping somebody out. This is what I ended up with;


Glimmmerskin Halfling Dragonfire Adept 5/Nosomatic Chirurgeon 1
Feats

1st Lesser Dragonmark (Mark of Healing)
3rd Maximize Spell
6th Mastery of Day and Night
Invocations

Enthralling Voice (6th level spell! for a lesser invocation!)

Up to 6th level Maximized Inflict spells at will. Allows for 22 damage to 6 targets, or 38 to one. Will 13+Cha for half. And you get all those nasty BFC options that DFAs get. Entangling Exhaustion could be picked up at level 9, or you get flaws. Or extrapolate for Strongheart Glimmerskin Halflings. Human could be used but the bonus feat will be soaked up by getting Heal in-class. I feel that Glimmerskin is more elegant and thematic.

This same concept is doable with Warlocks but is more difficult due to skills. You need to trick both Knowledge (nature) and Heal in class and get a Fort save of +3. It's a lot trickier and probably can't be done within reason until ECL 7 or 8.

Now, to expand on this. Inflict is a core spell so it gets a lot of splat support. I could've sworn I've seen items/feats that specifically apply to it and make it stronger. Anyone have any ideas? It's also worth nothing that the Inflicts are not Negative energy. They are untyped.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

This can also be used to bypass "Must be able to cast x level spells", as you can now cast Inflict x Wounds spells of any level you care to.

Other than that, your Breath will likely be doing more damage than an equevalent Inflict spell, although if you're doing the undead thing, it can be used for unlimited pet healing. Makes it better as a Strongheart Halfling Warlock/NC with the invocation for making undead.

[FishAreWet]

Breath will deal 3d6. With items and a feat you can hit 5d6. That's 17.5 average damage in a 15ft cone or 30ft line.

That is strictly worse then 30 untyped damage to 6 targets within 30ft of each other.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Breath will deal 3d6. With items and a feat you can hit 5d6. That's 17.5 average damage in a 15ft cone or 30ft line.

That is strictly worse then 30 untyped damage to 6 targets within 30ft of each other.

And how do you figure that? The 6th level Inflict spell is Mass Inflict Cure Moderate, which is 2d8+(caster level). Even auto-maxed, that's only 16+6 (assuming NC advances spellcasting) for a total of 24.

And it isn't untyped either, it's negative energy. Which means you'll be helping undead you face, and anyone with a Death Ward or similar effect simply ignores it.

[FishAreWet]

You're right, I got the wrong Inflict. But if you read the post, it explicitly doesn't heal undead.

[Fulkerin]

From the SRD (bolding mine)

When laying your hand upon a creature, you channel negative energy that deals 1d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +5).

Since undead are powered by negative energy, this spell cures such a creature of a like amount of damage, rather than harming it.

Now... while it doesn't say negative energy damage specifically, it is strongly implied that it is, and I have never come across a dm that said otherwise.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You're right, I got the wrong Inflict. But if you read the post, it explicitly doesn't heal undead.


Negative energy spreads out in all directions from the point of origin, dealing 1d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +25) to nearby living enemies.

Like other inflict spells, mass inflict light wounds cures undead in its area rather than damaging them. A cleric capable of spontaneously casting inflict spells can also spontaneously cast mass inflict spells. Yes, it explicitly does heal undead. It is a spontaneous Inflict x Wounds spell, which, by definition, heal Undead.

[FishAreWet]

OMG did both of you not read my initial post?

Nosomatic Chirurgeon explicitly states that it's a special type of inflict that doesn't heal undead.

[Tyndmyr]

Hmm...if you get a level of bard in there somewhere, there's nothing stopping you from taking up Sublime Chord, then blissfully getting full casting. In addition to metabreaths and spont inflicts, of course.

Could be fun.

[Fulkerin]

You seem to have left that out in the first post. AFB right now, so I can't look at it.

[FishAreWet]

It's the last sentence. Maybe it wasn't clear enough.

[Fulkerin]

I understood "Inflict is a core spell" as you talking about that specifically when you said untyped.

Although its interesting that Nosomatic Chirurgeon would change that...

[FishAreWet]

Yeah it wasn't very clear, my bad. I think the reason for the clause is to avoid Tomb Touched Soul and insane healing at will.

The build doesn't have many places to grow too that expand on it's current abilities, but for it's level, I think it's strong and very playable.

[Tyndmyr]

What are the save mods? It's possible that Ur-Priest would be another viable progression.

[FishAreWet]

I'm AFB right now, I don't remember saves. But Ur-Priest makes you a bit MAD. You're already using Cha for SpA saves, and Con to breath saves.

And i don't think that Breath Spell feats are on the cleric list anyways. Sublime Chord seems to be a lot stronger.

[Tyndmyr]

I'm AFB right now, I don't remember saves. But Ur-Priest makes you a bit MAD. You're already using Cha for SpA saves, and Con to breath saves.

And i don't think that Breath Spell feats are on the cleric list anyways. Sublime Chord seems to be a lot stronger.

Probably the best option, yeah. Any good feats that you can pick up via heroics? Im not that familiar with the breath spell feats, but if any of them made it to the fighter bonus list by some chance, could be an interesting option.

[Akal Saris]

Well, once you have 2-3 levels of sublime chord, you can probably forget about your breath weapon altogether.

Anyhow, very nice work bringing those elements together, it looks like a fun blaster character :)

Oh, and the Holy Potency feat from Complete Champion adds stuff with inflict spells, but requires turn undead.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A much better way to use NC, rather than trying to do sub-par blastomancy, would be to use it to bypass the 'able to cast x level spells' requirements for PrC's. This would, for example, allow you to go Rogue1/Spellthief1/Warlock6/NC1/Arcane Trickster10/xxx1

This would net you Dark invocations, +7d6 sneak attack, with possibility of Craven cheese, and an EB of 9d6, which could further be pumped up with toys. Go with Glaivelock, and it massively out-damages your build. With always-on Improved Invisibility that screws over anyone who tries to dispel it, Chilling Tentacles for battlefield control, and the ability to spam negative levels with Chain Utterdark Blast + Quicken SLA. Or he could flip flavors and do Slow + Negative Levels. It's all up to him.

[FishAreWet]

A much better way to use NC, rather than trying to do sub-par blastomancy, would be to use it to bypass the 'able to cast x level spells' requirements for PrC's. This would, for example, allow you to go Rogue1/Spellthief1/Warlock6/NC1/Arcane Trickster10/xxx1

This would net you Dark invocations, +7d6 sneak attack, with possibility of Craven cheese, and an EB of 9d6, which could further be pumped up with toys. Go with Glaivelock, and it massively out-damages your build. With always-on Improved Invisibility that screws over anyone who tries to dispel it, Chilling Tentacles for battlefield control, and the ability to spam negative levels with Chain Utterdark Blast + Quicken SLA. Or he could flip flavors and do Slow + Negative Levels. It's all up to him.

Yes. My build was also ECL 6. Jesus Christ.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yes. My build was also ECL 6. Jesus Christ.

Even at ECL 6, without NC, my build is STILL out-DPSing yours. And doesn't offer saves while doing it, either. Using NC to go into AT only makes the gap that much wider...

[FishAreWet]

You can do 5d6 as a standard action to one flatfooted opponent that you must make an attack roll against. That's an average 17.5 damage. I can do 19 even if they make the save. And I can do 4d6 at all as a breath weapon. And I can do 22 to six opponents, 11 on a save, and this can be used at range. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that I'm missing something that your build has at level 6. I mean, you do have Steal Spell but it's only level 1 and requires melee IIRC. And you do have more skill points. We both have UMD... What am I missing?

but you have a point about qualifying, that's a good use of Nosomatic. That's somewhere this build could go after ECL 6.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You can do 5d6 as a standard action to one flatfooted opponent that you must make an attack roll against. That's an average 17.5 damage. I can do 19 even if they make the save. And I can do 4d6 at all as a breath weapon. And I can do 22 to six opponents, 11 on a save, and this can be used at range. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that I'm missing something that your build has at level 6. I mean, you do have Steal Spell but it's only level 1 and requires melee IIRC. And you do have more skill points. We both have UMD... What am I missing?

but you have a point about qualifying, that's a good use of Nosomatic. That's somewhere this build could go after ECL 6.

Heh, not quite...

First off, it's more like 7d6, due to toys, plus having an option for even more pumping if I care to blow rod charges, and it is a TOUCH attack, and with Glaive, it is either flat-footed, or FLANKED, and with Walk Unseen, or simply a Wand of Invisibility, or simply using Hide checks + Darkness, it is stupidly easy to make opponents flat-footed.

Touch Attack >>> Will Save/half. With pumped dex, easy since pretty much every other stat other than maybe Charisma, and keeping Con up enough to survive lower levels, he's never going to miss a Touch Attack, which means he's FAR more likely to dish out maximum DPS.

Also, by that level, I can have out Empower SLA, which means damage * 1.5. Which means 7d6*1.5 = 36.75 on average.

And if I run into someone who specifically tweaked his Touch AC? Well... True Strike is a 1st level spell... kinda handy, eh? So is Nerveskitter...

[FishAreWet]

How are you getting 7d6? Honest question. +2d6 is sneak attack, and you'd have only +4d6 eldrich? Or are you using that 3/day item? And you understand that 7d6 is 4 more then 19 on average right? And 19 is if they make the save. I have UMD too, as well has msot of then Invocations. You have me on Empower SLA. Unless Flaws are in then I could have it too. So that's kinda irrelevant because they're equal. You say you need Cha and Dex. I only need Cha for DCs.

I'm not saying your build is bad at all. It seems great and is a strong option. But the damage isn't too different. And Come on man, I'm just throwing a build idea out for people to try. Of course there are stronger builds then it. Of course there are.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

How are you getting 7d6? Honest question. +2d6 is sneak attack, and you'd have only +4d6 eldrich? Or are you using that 3/day item? And you understand that 7d6 is 4 more then 19 on average right? And 19 is if they make the save. I have UMD too, as well has msot of then Invocations. You have me on Empower SLA. Unless Flaws are in then I could have it too. So that's kinda irrelevant because they're equal. You say you need Cha and Dex. I only need Cha for DCs.

I'm not saying your build is bad at all. It seems great and is a strong option. But the damage isn't too different. And Come on man, I'm just throwing a build idea out for people to try. Of course there are stronger builds then it. Of course there are.

It's a neck-slot item which raises EB damage by +2d6, in the MIC. So I'd have +2d6 SA and +3d6 EB + 2d6 from toy for 7d6. Then use the Rod if I need to nova down something.

Also, Empower SLA doesn't quite work on Inflict spells, so the point is moot, although you could likely Empower an Inflict Moderate Wounds as a 6th level spell. That would be decent damage output.

I'm not trying to rag on your build, but... it's like taking a fusion reactor, and using it to boil water for coffee... there's so much more you could be doing with the combo.

Heck, if there was a way you could manage to make Inflict spells Abjuration, you could easily qualify for Initiate of the Sevenfold Cheese.

MotAO can be a good cheese entry, since you can sac all the Inflict spells you want to exchange them for other spells... effectively getting a very limited number of any spell you wanted

[FishAreWet]

Can you afford the +2d6 item with 6th level WBL? I thought it was too expensive but if you say you can then I'll trust you.

But man, fusion reactor to boiling coffee? You're doing 36 damage best case scenario vs my 19 damage on a made save. 38 on a failed save. And you're ignoring my ability to do 22 to 6 targets.

I mean, I'm boiling coffee and your boiling soup at best man. The ability to qualify for PrCs is strong, very strong. It's not in the scope of what my build is however. So it's not really comparable.

[The_Snark]

You cannot afford that item at standard level 6 wealth-by-level. Even if you were starting at level 6 and willing to shell out all your cash, it costs almost half as much again as you could afford. You could get the lesser, +1d6 version, but that'd be over half your funds right there. There's at least one cheap item that lets you boost Eldritch Blast a few times per day, but this is more of a nova ability, and not all that impressive as novas go.

And getting sneak attack isn't quite as easy as you make out; unless you can afford a wand of Greater Invisibility (which is even more out of a level 6 character's means), you have to spend a standard action activating the ability after every attack, meaning you can only do this at the start of the fight or every other round. Flanking works fine if you take Eldritch Glaive, but then you're in melee, and you're taking multiclassing penalties. (Some people actually do use them, I hear. I normally don't, but I suspect this sort of class-dipping-just-to-pick-up-a-bit-more-sneak-attack is exactly what they're designed to prevent.)

It's not a bad build, per se, but honestly I'd take the Chirurgeon at level 6. The damage is not inconsiderable, it's at-will, it's very hard to prevent, and it can be spread out at range or focused on a melee target. Very nice, possibly even broken at that particular level.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Can you afford the +2d6 item with 6th level WBL? I thought it was too expensive but if you say you can then I'll trust you.

But man, fusion reactor to boiling coffee? You're doing 36 damage best case scenario vs my 19 damage on a made save. 38 on a failed save. And you're ignoring my ability to do 22 to 6 targets.

I mean, I'm boiling coffee and your boiling soup at best man. The ability to qualify for PrCs is strong, very strong. It's not in the scope of what my build is however. So it's not really comparable.

Then perhaps you should more clearly define what is the scope of your build? To do some damage at level 7? Is that all you're trying to do? Or have I missed the point?


And getting sneak attack isn't quite as easy as you make out; unless you can afford a wand of Greater Invisibility (which is even more out of a level 6 character's means), you have to spend a standard action activating the ability after every attack, meaning you can only do this at the start of the fight or every other round. Flanking works fine if you take Eldritch Glaive, but then you're in melee, and you're taking multiclassing penalties. (Some people actually do use them, I hear. I normally don't, but I suspect this sort of class-dipping-just-to-pick-up-a-bit-more-sneak-attack is exactly what they're designed to prevent.)

Darkness as an at-will SLA + Hide as a class skill = no need for invisibility. And you only need invis/hide for the first round. After that, you should be able to flank quite well.

[Flickerdart]

Darkness creates concealment, which means you can't sneak attack. So that actually hurts you.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Darkness creates concealment, which means you can't sneak attack. So that actually hurts you.

Devil's Sight lets you ignore magical darkness, and Concealment allows a Hide check

[Flickerdart]

Devil's Sight lets you ignore magical darkness, and Concealment allows a Hide check
Handy! How long does it last?

[Akal Saris]

Devil's Sight is 24 hrs. One of the warlock PCs in my lvl 13 game is all about stacking miss chances in darkness (with bats!) and hide in plain sight.

And ShneekeyTheLost, give FishAreWet a break already. Not every build wants to enter Unseen Seer - some just want to be a decent blaster off the bat at level 6. Hell, DFA 19/NS 1 works well enough as a build. Your use of NS is good too (and I say this because I love Unseen Seer), but it's not that great compared to a wizard entry, for example.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Handy! How long does it last?

24 hours... in other words, always on.

[FishAreWet]

Your use of NS is good too (and I say this because I love Unseen Seer), but it's not that great compared to a wizard entry, for example.Thank you. That's what I was trying to say.