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Adamaro
2010-03-03, 04:52 AM
I was looking at balors' stats the other day and this fella has int 24. IMO 10 is average intelligence, highly educated person (able to graduate on a college) may have int 14, while genius starts between 15 and 20. Einstein was maybe 22 and 24 ... well, thats IMO smart. Real smart. So I was thinking how would monsters' above average int. reflect in its approach to combat? Surely balor will not just teleport itself to an enemy and whack away ...
How do you think would such a creature make a comleptely unfair fight? Especially since it has CR 20 and usually faces high lvl characters(wizards!).

Ponce
2010-03-03, 04:56 AM
With something like Int 24, it would (if it were real) perform a lot better than you would, on average. Best just to try your hardest and not dwell on the matter too much.

Adamaro
2010-03-03, 04:58 AM
With something like Int 24, it would (if it were real) perform a lot better than you would, on average. Best just to try your hardest and not dwell on the matter too much.

True. Thats why I would like some "dirty trick" suggestions to reflect this int. lvl.

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-03, 04:58 AM
I was looking at balors' stats the other day and this fella has int 24. IMO 10 is average intelligence, highly educated person (able to graduate on a college) may have int 14, while genius starts between 15 and 20. Einstein was maybe 22 and 24 ... well, thats IMO smart. Real smart. So I was thinking how would monsters' above average int. reflect in its approach to combat? Surely balor will not just teleport itself to an enemy and whack away ...
How do you think would such a creature make a comleptely unfair fight? Especially since it has CR 20 and usually faces high lvl characters(wizards!).

Balors would show up in pairs and take turns using blasphemy, ensuring that non-evil characters in range never get actions.

obnoxious
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Adamaro
2010-03-03, 05:06 AM
Balors would show up in pairs and take turns using blasphemy, ensuring that non-evil characters in range never get actions.

obnoxious
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Wut? How? Blasphemy only dazes weakens, paralyses ...

Ossian
2010-03-03, 05:08 AM
I was looking at balors' stats the other day and this fella has int 24. IMO 10 is average intelligence, highly educated person (able to graduate on a college) may have int 14, while genius starts between 15 and 20. Einstein was maybe 22 and 24 ... well, thats IMO smart. Real smart. So I was thinking how would monsters' above average int. reflect in its approach to combat? Surely balor will not just teleport itself to an enemy and whack away ...
How do you think would such a creature make a comleptely unfair fight? Especially since it has CR 20 and usually faces high lvl characters(wizards!).

It is a kind of cunning intelligence, that of the Balors. While supernatural, without "Knowledge - Mathematics" and skill focus in the same skill, a team of researchers, commitment and interest, years of research and top of the line equipment, no Balor (or Einstein himself) could come up with relativity.

Besides, the D&D INT scale kinda misrepresents our education system, or our 20th century geniuses.

A Balor is capable of taking rational decisions in a split second, to outscheme and outplan most people you would call smart and wise, and has massive lots of skill as a result of the high INT bonus.

Best thing you can do is, as a DM, to plan responses to even the most obscure and improbable scenarios, even to stuff that the Balor could not normally plan ahead or know of, to simulate the fact that he has INT 24 and centuries of slaughters on his CV and...well, you don't (I suppose ;) )

O.

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-03, 05:09 AM
Wut? How? Blasphemy only dazes weakens, paralyses ...

Blasphemy dazes without a save.


Dazed

The creature is unable to act normally. A dazed creature can take no actions, but has no penalty to AC.

A dazed condition typically lasts 1 round.

obnoxious
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Runestar
2010-03-03, 05:12 AM
Balors would show up in pairs and take turns using blasphemy, ensuring that non-evil characters in range never get actions.

obnoxious
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A balor can summon another balor, so you don't even need a pair to do the job. :smallbiggrin:

That said, I don't think its int was a major factor, considering its sample battle sequence.

Spiryt
2010-03-03, 05:20 AM
It is a kind of cunning intelligence, that of the Balors. While supernatural, without "Knowledge - Mathematics" and skill focus in the same skill, a team of researchers, commitment and interest, years of research and top of the line equipment, no Balor (or Einstein himself) could come up with relativity.

Besides, the D&D INT scale kinda misrepresents our education system, or our 20th century geniuses.

A Balor is capable of taking rational decisions in a split second, to outscheme and outplan most people you would call smart and wise, and has massive lots of skill as a result of the high INT bonus.

Best thing you can do is, as a DM, to plan responses to even the most obscure and improbable scenarios, even to stuff that the Balor could not normally plan ahead or know of, to simulate the fact that he has INT 24 and centuries of slaughters on his CV and...well, you don't (I suppose ;) )

O.

This.

Any ecounter with such creature should be planned by DM, so he can have "find" nice solution for everything.

The problem is that on such levels, it's pretty certain that Wizzzard will have some really silly Int, not "mere" 24.

Incompleat
2010-03-03, 05:37 AM
I was looking at balors' stats the other day and this fella has int 24. IMO 10 is average intelligence, highly educated person (able to graduate on a college) may have int 14, while genius starts between 15 and 20. Einstein was maybe 22 and 24 ...

No, I don't think so.

10 is average intelligence, able to graduate a college = 8 or higher (perhaps 10 or higher for especially difficult subjects, or if you meant "able to graduate with top grades from a good college"), genius = 14 or higher.

Really, getting a college degree does not require much intelligence: pretty much everyone can do so with just a little bit of good, old-fashioned hard work.

Einstein probably was a 17 or 18 INT - remember, int 18 is the highest an unaugmented human could possibly have - who put a lot of skill points in knowledge(physics) and knowledge(mathematics), and more generally worked his butt off.

Killer Angel
2010-03-03, 05:43 AM
Any ecounter with such creature should be planned by DM, so he can have "find" nice solution for everything.


And to roleplay his superior tactic, thanks to Int 24, You'll ask before some suggestion from the forum's optimizers... you cannot have Int 24, but you'll have at disposal a hive mind! :smallwink:

Yora
2010-03-03, 05:46 AM
A balor can summon another balor, so you don't even need a pair to do the job. :smallbiggrin:
Yes, he can. And the he has another power hungry and backstabbing CR 20 fiend with him, which now knows what kind of situation he thinks he can't handle himself. And the summoned balor surely won't be to happy to have to fight someone elses battle. Depending on the actual threat for the initial balor, it might be a better idea to go for 1d4 hezrous instead.

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-03, 06:24 AM
Yes, he can. And the he has another power hungry and backstabbing CR 20 fiend with him, which now knows what kind of situation he thinks he can't handle himself. And the summoned balor surely won't be to happy to have to fight someone elses battle. Depending on the actual threat for the initial balor, it might be a better idea to go for 1d4 hezrous instead.

Very good point. Of course, he could get a simulacrum of himself which is 100% loyal and still has blasphemy at will.

obnoxious
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Yora
2010-03-03, 06:27 AM
Depends on the fluff, of course. But I belive in planescape, it was explicitly stated that most outsiders just hate to having resolve to summoning because it often causes more troubles than it solves.

Eldan
2010-03-03, 06:32 AM
A mundance genius theoretically could get to a 22, if he spent his level 4 bonus and got a +3 from age. Since earth humans top at around level 4-5, it could rarely happen.

hamishspence
2010-03-03, 06:34 AM
"Earth humans top at 4-5" is highly debatable- not proven.

It might work for combat capability- but multiple sources (Arms & Equipment Guide, Cityscape, DMG2) suggest that skillwise, humans should reach much higher levels.

Eldan
2010-03-03, 06:37 AM
It depends: a very focused human, such as an olympic athlete, or a researcher, would probably get skill focus in his skill, a full 6-8 ranks, a high attribute in that area, circumstance boni and maybe a second feat for a +2. So they can get up to more than +20 at level five. And that's without modern tools which most likely give more circumstance boni or help from apprentices and colleagues.

hamishspence
2010-03-03, 06:41 AM
Possible.

DMG2 has an array of "unusual NPC abilities"- one of which is Prodigy- which is not supernatural.

This one might help to account for the more exceptional, one in a billion or so, type of person.

Runestar
2010-03-03, 06:42 AM
Yes, he can. And the he has another power hungry and backstabbing CR 20 fiend with him, which now knows what kind of situation he thinks he can't handle himself. And the summoned balor surely won't be to happy to have to fight someone elses battle. Depending on the actual threat for the initial balor, it might be a better idea to go for 1d4 hezrous instead.

I find 2 balors easier to handle than another hezrou (since it shares the same stat block as the existing balor). Plus, it follows the rules for summon monster, which means the summoned balor has to follow the instructions of the 1st balor, whether it likes it or not.

Or to be an even bigger jerk, maybe give it swift concentration so it can maintain implosion as a move (or even swift) action.

Gaiyamato
2010-03-03, 06:45 AM
If you look, it is suggested that ordinary humans should at most be able to pass a DC 25, maybe one person in millions and DC 30.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm

DC 30 is a Heroic feats of near super human proportions.
This means at with 1D20+skill bonus you should only just hit 30 tops assuming you are a very much above average human.
Take into account Assist other for +2 and that means that with 18 INT and INT based skill should have no more than maybe 4 ranks in it at best.

This means that all of us are actually level 1, with maybe the odd level 2 walking about, nearly all of us are Experts or Commoners (mostly Experts with modern education), perhaps the odd Aristocrat, for our first level.

So level 4-5 at best sounds more than reasonable. Extremely high in fact.

We can so powerful and get away with so much in DnD because it is a game about being super human and super powerful, full of magic and fantastical stuff far beyond our normal mundane abilties.
So in DnD the Human wizard can get huge intelligence, but he would be far beyond the ken of you or I.

I would say that even at best guess we would be lucky to have more than one or two people even approaching 14 INT on this forum and I would highly doubt anyone above that. Most people would be in the 10-12 range I would say.
So now you think of that 24 INT Balor. *shudders*

Just imagine throwing level 1 NPC Expert Class Humans with all thier stats being at best 14, most likely most of them being 10-12 range.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-03-03, 06:47 AM
From what I've heard from Wizards writers, 10 is like an iq of 100. 11 is 110, 120 is 120, etc.

In that case you're not approaching genius until around a 16-18.

hamishspence
2010-03-03, 06:48 AM
If you look, it is suggested that ordinary humans should at most be able to pass a DC 25, maybe one person in millions and DC 30.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm

DC 30 is a Heroic feats of near super human proportions.
This means at with 1D20+skill bonus you should only just hit 30 tops assuming you are a very much above average human.
Take into account Assist other for +2 and that means that with 18 INT and INT based skill should have no more than maybe 4 ranks in it at best.

This means that all of us are actually level 1, with maybe the odd level 2 walking about, nearly all of us are Experts or Commoners (mostly Experts with modern education), perhaps the odd Aristocrat, for our first level.

I don't think D20 Modern took that approach.

Also- on genius- some versions of IQ testing have 140 being genius.

Volkov
2010-03-03, 06:48 AM
1 int=10 iq points IMHO. 240 IQ points is at Mozart's level or so. He'd still be easily outwitted by a pit fiend.

Gaiyamato
2010-03-03, 06:49 AM
Yeah DnD doesnt scale very well into IQ ranges. lol.
10-12 covers from aprox IQ 90-120 in DnD.

hamishspence
2010-03-03, 06:51 AM
1 int=10 iq points IMHO.

While this was suggested in Dragon, very early on, and repeated in a 3.5 FAQ- it's also been disputed a lot.

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-03, 06:51 AM
I find 2 balors easier to handle than another hezrou (since it shares the same stat block as the existing balor). Plus, it follows the rules for summon monster, which means the summoned balor has to follow the instructions of the 1st balor, whether it likes it or not.

Or to be an even bigger jerk, maybe give it swift concentration so it can maintain implosion as a move (or even swift) action.

Yes, but afterwards, the summoner is in the summoned Balor's debt, which isn't a place even a Balor wants to be.

obnoxious
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Optimystik
2010-03-03, 07:00 AM
Yes, he can. And the he has another power hungry and backstabbing CR 20 fiend with him, which now knows what kind of situation he thinks he can't handle himself. And the summoned balor surely won't be to happy to have to fight someone elses battle. Depending on the actual threat for the initial balor, it might be a better idea to go for 1d4 hezrous instead.

I'd like to add a qualifier here - according to FC1, summoned Demons fight with reckless abandon, because they know that they can't actually be harmed unless they are Called. Called demons are much worse off - if they die, they can be demoted all the way down to dretch or even mane - even Balors are subject to this. But being summoned acts as protection.

"When a demon is summoned out of the Abyss magically, it simply returns unharmed when the spell ends or when it is destroyed, no matter what happens to it in the meantime. Thus, demons summoned to the material plane have little fear of death."

That says to me that if a Balor summons another Balor, the second one will feel invincible and be out solely to have a good time. Furthermore, summoned demons are happy to fight others' battles - "As long as a demon is asked to do things it wants to do anyway (such as kill, maim, destroy or corrupt), it serves."

There is, however, another reason for the Balor to go for 1d4 Hezrous over a second Balor - they are listed under the "Overlord" archetype, so they're more likely to want multiple weaker minions to boss around in combat than one strong one - but they will still summon the backup they feel fits the situation, so they'll be unlikely to ever summon 4d10 dretches for a battle where quality > quantity.

Bottom line: it's not clear-cut. One thing is certain, is that the Balor will summon something almost immediately using its default tactics. Whether that something is another Balor, a Nalfeshnee, or a pile of dretches is up to the DM to decide.

2xMachina
2010-03-03, 07:01 AM
1 coupon for being summoned later.

It'll be a pretty good system.

The Buddy System! For when you're being attacked by small, good adventurers!

Runestar
2010-03-03, 07:01 AM
Yes, but afterwards, the summoner is in the summoned Balor's debt, which isn't a place even a Balor wants to be.

obnoxious
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And that is a problem for the PCs because...? :smalltongue:

Volkov
2010-03-03, 07:03 AM
And that is a problem for the PCs because...? :smalltongue:

He'll have to leave for a while, then return as a demon lord or advanced balor. Which is something no one wants.

Gaiyamato
2010-03-03, 07:03 AM
On a standardised Scientific IQ Test Motzart likely would not have even gone above 130.
Einstein would have been in the 150s at best, most likely not even at 150 though.

IQ tests do not goto 240. Above 180 it is just "high".
In fact an IQ test even scoring above 160 is generally questioned.

Ignore these fake IQ tests you get online, most of them are rubbish.

Sophismata
2010-03-03, 07:10 AM
I would say that even at best guess we would be lucky to have more than one or two people even approaching 14 INT on this forum and I would highly doubt anyone above that. Most people would be in the 10-12 range I would say.

I'm honestly saddened by the way people manage to put themselves down.

Volkov
2010-03-03, 07:12 AM
I have an IQ of 140.

Adamaro
2010-03-03, 07:13 AM
I have an IQ of 140.

Amazing. Now how about some ingenious tricks balor would use?

tnx

Volkov
2010-03-03, 07:14 AM
Amazing. Now how about some ingenious tricks balor would use?

tnx

Summon up Hezrous to bog down the party and implode the wizard. Firestorm the cleric, then charge the party and hack apart the fighter and the rogue with glee.

Optimystik
2010-03-03, 07:38 AM
One trick a Balor uses to decide among foes is relying on its Hezrous' Unholy Blight - any members of the party that resist it immediately catch its eye as being worthy opponents.

It typically takes this in before a Blasphemy or Implosion.

Chrono22
2010-03-03, 07:43 AM
Einstein probably was a 17 or 18 INT - remember, int 18 is the highest an unaugmented human could possibly have - who put a lot of skill points in knowledge(physics) and knowledge(mathematics), and more generally worked his butt off.
I'm not disputing what his intelligence was (I find that kind of irrelevant) but actually a human could have an intelligence score as high as 22. Granted he'd have to have four levels and be aged, but neither are really impossible.

Killer Angel
2010-03-03, 07:45 AM
"When a demon is summoned out of the Abyss magically, it simply returns unharmed when the spell ends or when it is destroyed, no matter what happens to it in the meantime. Thus, demons summoned to the material plane have little fear of death."


If I remember correctly, for devils is different: when they're killed outside the hells, they "respawn" only one year after the killing.

Optimystik
2010-03-03, 07:53 AM
If I remember correctly, for devils is different: when they're killed outside the hells, they "respawn" only one year after the killing.

It takes a lot longer than that!

"a slain devil returns to Baator 99 years later, in its original form, at full hit points. This method of transport leaves behind any physical possessions the devil might have carried, including magic items and treasure, even if they originated in Baator."

While this does seem onerous, the upshot is that they are less likely to be demoted as a result, especially if they were high-rank to begin with. So a Pit Fiend will almost never be demoted for his failure (unless he really cheesed off an archduke), but a balor has just as much chance of coming back as a dretch as if he were a quasit.

kakiseirei
2010-03-03, 07:53 AM
Of course your IQ actually decreases with age, which makes the IQ/INT comparison even more spurious.

I always took sky high INT = metagaming, since someone with such a staggeringly high intelligence can make connections where other people see nothing. Fictional examples would be L from Death Note, or Grand Admiral Thrawn from the Star Wars expanded universe.

So to play a 24INT Balor, try and imagine that the Balor knows what kind of tactics the party is going to use, even if the balor has only seen them the first time.

hamishspence
2010-03-03, 07:58 AM
It takes a lot longer than that!

"a slain devil returns to Baator 99 years later, in its original form, at full hit points. This method of transport leaves behind any physical possessions the devil might have carried, including magic items and treasure, even if they originated in Baator."

I think this is Called devils only- summoned devils don't really die, just as summoned demons don't.

Called devils and demons reincarnate- but at the risk of demotion.

And devils and demons slain on their home plane stay dead.

Volkov
2010-03-03, 07:59 AM
If I remember correctly, for devils is different: when they're killed outside the hells, they "respawn" only one year after the killing.
No summoned creature is hurt after being killed. A Called devil takes 99 years to return, a called demon takes 100.

Damned ninjas.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-03-03, 08:01 AM
Einstein probably was a 17 or 18 INT - remember, int 18 is the highest an unaugmented human could possibly have

Assume Einstein was level 4. Base Int 18, +3 age, +1 levels, +2 human paragon. Using a 3d6 bell curve an 18 is only in the 99.5th percentile.

Killer Angel
2010-03-03, 08:05 AM
It takes a lot longer than that!

"a slain devil returns to Baator 99 years later, in its original form, at full hit points."


"OK, listen. I don't know where your Unholy Flail is! I must have put it away... who knows? maybe around 80 years ago. Try look in the old chests, in the basement. Good luck, and beware the Canoloth: I've buyed it a decade ago, it does'nt know your smell".


While this does seem onerous, the upshot is that they are less likely to be demoted as a result, especially if they were high-rank to begin with.

Probably including the wonderful Lateral Demotion. :smallbiggrin:

Arakune
2010-03-03, 08:06 AM
Dirty trick:

Make (Int mod) ad hoc "in response off" against the party defenses/offences if they need to face against one specific Balor, even if they break the rules a little. This could represent planning or simply higher intelect in play, since it's difficult to plan for everything the PCs can do. Sure, it looks like cheating, but that's what a "dirty trick" is :smalltongue:

Just don't overuse it or use it without finesse.

Optimystik
2010-03-03, 08:10 AM
I think this is Called devils only- summoned devils don't really die, just as summoned demons don't.

That's what I meant, yes. I didn't realize he was saying "it's different for Devils" as a response to the "summoned" part until after I quoted FC2.


Called devils and demons reincarnate- but at the risk of demotion.

There is a key difference - Devils are only demoted by their masters, Demons are demoted at random (which can only be prevented by Princes.)

Though it's unclear whether being dependent on a devil's good graces is any better a situation than being subject to the whims of fate. :smallwink: