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Gov2win
2010-03-03, 02:32 PM
Before I get into anything, I just would like to say that this is my first experience posting on the forums. I just registered today, so please excuse my etiquette if it's sub-par. >_<

Down to business, I've been playing D&D 3.5 since the beginning and have developed my own set of preferences on a few key issues, spell-casting being one of them. In a campaign and/or PvP setting what seems to be the better of the two classes, Wizard or Sorcerer?

I'm not trying to break D&D or anything, (Though any 20th level caster can certainly do that..) just looking for some friendly conversation. Personally, I like Wizard because it multi-classes with psion nicely due to the shared dependence on Intelligence.

Kylarra
2010-03-03, 02:33 PM
Wizard is by and large the one with more potential power.

Gov2win
2010-03-03, 02:39 PM
Wizard is by and large the one with more potential power.

That's how I feel, but then I keep realizing that there's a variant (PH2, I believe?) that let's Sorcerers not have a familiar to gain the use of metamagic as a Wizard. It seems so versatile, but I don't want to turn my back on Wizard ;_;

Tyndmyr
2010-03-03, 02:42 PM
Wizard has the most juice, but Sorcerer's are definitely not weak. Well built ones are reasonably close in power level.

Draz74
2010-03-03, 02:42 PM
That's how I feel, but then I keep realizing that there's a variant (PH2, I believe?) that let's Sorcerers not have a familiar to gain the use of metamagic as a Wizard. It seems so versatile, but I don't want to turn my back on Wizard ;_;

The feature you speak of isn't that great in the big Sorc vs. Wiz debate, for a few reasons:


Limited uses per day
Based on Intelligence, which won't usually be that high on a Sorc
The Wizard can trade out his Familiar for cool things too


The Wizard is unquestionably the more powerful of the two (unless you are very skilled at using some very specific Sorcerer tricks, like Arcane Fusion and Kobold Greater Rite of Passage). That said, I think Sorcerer is a lot more fun to play in general, and therefore consider it a "better" class.

And if I ever play a serious high-level Sorcerer, I definitely will not take the PHB2 Metamagic feature you speak of, and will take the Complete Mage feat Rapid Metamagic instead. (No limit on uses/day.)

magic9mushroom
2010-03-03, 02:47 PM
Sorcerer can get more raw power via the Sorcerer-only spells and the various means of getting free Sorc levels, and hence would have a decent chance of winning in a duel.

Wizards are far more useful in a campaign because instead of having a 1,000,001 ton weight to drop on a few problems and nothing to deal with the rest, they have a 1,000,000 ton weight for all problems.

JaronK
2010-03-03, 02:48 PM
Wizards are more powerful, but Sorcerers are still stronger than most classes out there. If all you want is power, Wizard's your best bet... but it may be too much.

JaronK

BRC
2010-03-03, 02:53 PM
In the hands of the people on this board, who like nothing better than hearing about every spell ever published, Wizards are considerably more powerful, since, for almost every situation, there has probably been a spell published for it. As such, with the format of "I need to beat X" (Which is how these things are generally presented here), Wizard is the obvious choice.

In actual gameplay where you frequently sit down having no idea what diabolical schemes the DM has in store for you, or for people unwilling or unable to constantly update their spellbook with the most advantageous spells for the situation, sorcerers can be much better.
Wizards are, potentially the most powerful class in the game. However, to reach that potential they require lots of out-of-game time looking through sourcebooks, asking questions on forums, and updating your spell list at the beginning of each session.
Now you may think this is the same for any Prepared Spellcaster, but Clerics and Druids of a significantly smaller spell list, and it tends to be more themed, so there isn't as much to look through.
Sorcerers have about the same level of prep time as most classes, yes they have more or less the same spell list size as wizards, but they don't need to pick spells as frequently.
Thus, a casual player who flips through sourcebooks while other people are taking their combat turn, will be much better off as a Sorcerer.

Gov2win
2010-03-03, 02:53 PM
The Wizard is unquestionably the more powerful of the two (unless you are very skilled at using some very specific Sorcerer tricks, like Arcane Fusion and Kobold Greater Rite of Passage). That said, I think Sorcerer is a lot more fun to play in general, and therefore consider it a "better" class.

And if I ever play a serious high-level Sorcerer, I definitely will not take the PHB2 Metamagic feature you speak of, and will take the Complete Mage feat Rapid Metamagic instead. (No limit on uses/day.)

That sounds pretty awesome, I never owned a copy of Complete Mage so I never knew about Rapid Metamagic. Are Arecane Fusion and Kobold Greater Rite of Passage in Complete Mage as well?

magic9mushroom
2010-03-03, 02:55 PM
That sounds pretty awesome, I never owned a copy of Complete Mage so I never knew about Rapid Metamagic. Are Arecane Fusion and Kobold Greater Rite of Passage in Complete Mage as well?

Arcane Fusion is, Greater Draconic Rite of Passage is here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a).

HunterOfJello
2010-03-03, 03:04 PM
Wizard and Sorcerer are both extremely powerful and useful in a group. I think a better question you need to ask yourself is, "what role do I want to play in my party and what is my playstyle?"


If you've been playing for a while then you know the big differences between the 2 spell casters. Think more about what kind of character you'll have the most fun as and pick that one.



~~~


Also, both classes have tons of great material form the splat books. Versatile Spellcaster is amazing for Sorcerers and feats like Rapid Metamagic are great for both in a pinch.

Optimystik
2010-03-03, 03:04 PM
That's how I feel, but then I keep realizing that there's a variant (PH2, I believe?) that let's Sorcerers not have a familiar to gain the use of metamagic as a Wizard. It seems so versatile, but I don't want to turn my back on Wizard ;_;

Please note that the PHB2 ACF is limited - you can only do free metamagic a few times per day with that.. To remove that limit you need a feat - Rapid Metamagic from Complete Arcane, which lets you do it as many times as you want, and lets you keep your familiar.

Gov2win
2010-03-03, 03:04 PM
Wizards are far more useful in a campaign because instead of having a 1,000,001 ton weight to drop on a few problems and nothing to deal with the rest, they have a 1,000,000 ton weight for all problems.

Awesome way of putting things, by the way, made me laugh ^_^

Gov2win
2010-03-03, 03:06 PM
Please note that the PHB2 ACF is limited - you can only do free metamagic a few times per day with that.. To remove that limit you need a feat - Rapid Metamagic from Complete Arcane, which lets you do it as many times as you want, and lets you keep your familiar.

Yeah, that seems really useful! I just never owned s copy of Complete Mage, so I thought PH2 was as good as it got for Sorcs using metamagic >_<

Gnaeus
2010-03-03, 03:12 PM
Now you may think this is the same for any Prepared Spellcaster, but Clerics and Druids of a significantly smaller spell list, and it tends to be more themed, so there isn't as much to look through.
Sorcerers have about the same level of prep time as most classes, yes they have more or less the same spell list size as wizards, but they don't need to pick spells as frequently.

That isn't really true. Wizards have to pick spells off their class spell list only when they level up or shop for scrolls in a big town. Few wizards actually have more than 20-25 spells known per level.

A cleric or druid has hundreds of spells to choose from every morning. The druid also has to wade through 5 books of monsters to pick good wildshape forms several times a day.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-03, 03:15 PM
Yeah, that seems really useful! I just never owned s copy of Complete Mage, so I thought PH2 was as good as it got for Sorcs using metamagic >_<

Have you seen Arcane Spellsurge? (Dragon Magic p64)

Sor/Wiz 7
1 standard action (swift action for dragonblood)
1 round/level

Casting times for arcane spells are reduced (2-10 rounds -> 1-9 rounds, 1 full round -> 1 standard action, 1 standard action -> 1 swift action).

The trick is that you can't ignore this. So a wizard gets very little benefit due to the fact that you can't cast a quickened spell as a standard action. But you (a sorcerer) can cast a metamagiced spell (standard action) and a non-metamagiced spell (swift action). Not only quicken, but FREE quicken (and you can use Invisible Spell to count as a metamagic, so that's almost free, too). Get your Incantatrix buddy to Persist it and win the action game.

Gov2win
2010-03-03, 03:24 PM
Have you seen Arcane Spellsurge? (Dragon Magic p64)

Sor/Wiz 7
1 standard action (swift action for dragonblood)
1 round/level

Casting times for arcane spells are reduced (2-10 rounds -> 1-9 rounds, 1 full round -> 1 standard action, 1 standard action -> 1 swift action).

The trick is that you can't ignore this. So a wizard gets very little benefit due to the fact that you can't cast a quickened spell as a standard action. But you (a sorcerer) can cast a metamagiced spell (standard action) and a non-metamagiced spell (swift action). Not only quicken, but FREE quicken (and you can use Invisible Spell to count as a metamagic, so that's almost free, too). Get your Incantatrix buddy to Persist it and win the action game.

O_O That's ridiculous! I'm unfamiliar with what an Incanatrix, or Persist for that matter, but that seems to be the spell to have if you're a Sorc looking to save feats..

magic9mushroom
2010-03-03, 03:30 PM
O_O That's ridiculous! I'm unfamiliar with what an Incanatrix, or Persist for that matter, but that seems to be the spell to have if you're a Sorc looking to save feats..

Persistent Spell makes a spell last 24 hours, which >> 1 round/level.

Incantatrix is a broken prestige class that can apply metamagic for free to other people's spells with a Spellcraft check.

faceroll
2010-03-03, 03:31 PM
I thought arcane spellsurge was sorcerer only.

Ernir
2010-03-03, 03:34 PM
I thought arcane spellsurge was sorcerer only.

It's a Sor/Wiz spell, but it is... vastly more effective for Sorcerers for the reasons magic9mushroom described.

Lysander
2010-03-03, 03:36 PM
Wizards and Sorcerers are close in power but wizards are simply better because of their versatility. Here's a poor analogy:

Imagine two superheroes that each have the powers of Superman. Except the sorcerer is stuck being Superman every day, while wizard if they so choose can pick to have the powers of any other superhero for the day. Most of the time being Superman would be more than enough power, but sometimes being able to take other powers, like Martian Manhunter's intangibility, Wonder Woman's truth lasso, Batman's information gathering, allow the wizard to handle situations the sorcerer simply can't.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-03, 03:42 PM
Wizards and Sorcerers are close in power but wizards are simply better because of their versatility. Here's a poor analogy:

Imagine two superheroes that each have the powers of Superman. Except the sorcerer is stuck being Superman every day, while wizard if they so choose can pick to have the powers of any other superhero for the day. Most of the time being Superman would be more than enough power, but sometimes being able to take other powers, like Martian Manhunter's intangibility, Wonder Woman's truth lasso, Batman's information gathering, allow the wizard to handle situations the sorcerer simply can't.

Like I said. The Sorcerer has a 1,000,001 ton weight for the problems they're built for, and nothing for anything else. The Wizard has a 1,000,000 ton weight for everything. Hence, the wizard breaks the campaign far worse, even if it's reasonably likely he'd lose in a duel.

Lysander
2010-03-03, 03:51 PM
That's the problem with the wizard. It's too easy for them to happen to have the right spell to overcome an obstacle, or to take the campaign in a completely new direction you didn't plan.

Let's say you know that a sorcerer can fly and turn ethereal. So you build a dungeon built out of walls of force filled with flying creatures, perfectly suited to challenge them.

With the wizard you don't know what to plan for. Do you make a dungeon vs flying? Vs teleportation? Vs etherealness? Vs phase door? You end up overlooking something (crap, I forgot he can turn to mist and flow through cracks), or you make it far too challenging by negating everything the wizard can do (hello antimagic rooms filled with demons).

magic9mushroom
2010-03-03, 03:58 PM
That's the problem with the wizard. It's too easy for them to happen to have the right spell to overcome an obstacle, or to take the campaign in a completely new direction you didn't plan.

Let's say you know that a sorcerer can fly and turn ethereal. So you build a dungeon built out of walls of force filled with flying creatures, perfectly suited to challenge them.

With the wizard you don't know what to plan for. Do you make a dungeon vs flying? Vs teleportation? Vs etherealness? Vs phase door? You end up overlooking something (crap, I forgot he can turn to mist and flow through cracks), or you make it far too challenging by negating everything the wizard can do (hello antimagic rooms filled with demons).

Exactly. Wizards are far too adaptable to challenge without turning the game into Rocket Tag.

valadil
2010-03-03, 04:01 PM
I like improvising more than planning, so sorcerer is more fun for me.

Every other factor makes wizard better IMO (int instead of cha, bonus skills, learning new spells, etc) but spontaneous casting alone makes me slightly prefer sorcs. Note that this only includes sorcerers who have some means of using metamagic without turning it into a full round action. Take that away and I'm back to wizards.

faceroll
2010-03-03, 04:09 PM
Exactly. Wizards are far too adaptable to challenge without turning the game into Rocket Tag.

Really?
I find dueling arcanists to be more like a chess game, where each probes defenses, removes/puts up spells, feints, etc.
It's melee that turns into rocket tag. The amount of damage they can put out gets very high, often at the expense of their ac.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-03, 04:16 PM
It's a Sor/Wiz spell, but it is... vastly more effective for Sorcerers for the reasons magic9mushroom described.

Actually, it's Sor-only. Like Arcane Fusion. The thing is, Wizards can get the spell through Recaster or Wyrm Wizard levels.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-03, 04:19 PM
Really?
I find dueling arcanists to be more like a chess game, where each probes defenses, removes/puts up spells, feints, etc.
It's melee that turns into rocket tag. The amount of damage they can put out gets very high, often at the expense of their ac.

Once one side gets an action, they can use Celerity, Time Stop, and various other means (Illusory Pit is fun) to keep it their turn until their opponents are incapacitated. Therefore, everything hinges on getting an action first.

Lysander
2010-03-03, 04:27 PM
Exactly. Wizards are far too adaptable to challenge without turning the game into Rocket Tag.

Where wizards can be balanced is if you have a semi-restricted spell list, and make acquiring a new spell a quest objective instead of just a stroll down to Ye Olde Scroll Shop. I personally think spells make excellent loot. The fighter gets a magic helmet, the rogue gets an invisibility ring, the wizard finds an ancient magical scroll containing a new spell for them to learn. What's best is giving them a random spell instead of the most ideal one, so the wizard is forced to improvise how to use it to their advantage.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-03, 04:29 PM
Where wizards can be balanced is if you have a semi-restricted spell list, and make acquiring a new spell a quest objective instead of just a stroll down to Ye Olde Scroll Shop. I personally think spells make excellent loot. The fighter gets a magic helmet, the rogue gets an invisibility ring, the wizard finds an ancient magical scroll containing a new spell for them to learn. What's best is giving them a random spell instead of the most ideal one, so the wizard is forced to improvise how to use it to their advantage.

And then the wizard hates you because you're deliberately screwing him.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-03, 04:36 PM
And then the wizard hates you because you're deliberately screwing him.

Not really. Stealing his spellbook regularly is grounds for that. Denying him a few scrolls isn't. It just means he needs to grab Coligate (SIC) Wizard. Or Wyrm Wizard, or other feats/PrCs.


And even then, it's possible to make a potent Wizard using only the 4 spells/spell level. It just hurts your defenses and forces you to focus more on the reactions available.

Lysander
2010-03-03, 04:41 PM
And then the wizard hates you because you're deliberately screwing him.

I wouldn't suggest doing it maliciously. Just explain to your player, before they finalize their class choice, that the way you keep wizards from becoming overpowered is giving them a somewhat random selection of spells. Tell them spells are gleaned from the rotted remains of ancient spellbooks in ancient dungeons, bargained for with secretive archmages, taken from the libraries of vanquished liches, and that learning a new spell, particularly a very powerful one, is as big a deal as a fighter finding a legendary sword. I think this is actually beneficial for the player. Questing for ultimate magical power is a lot more fun if you actually have to quest for it.

JaronK
2010-03-03, 04:43 PM
Where wizards can be balanced is if you have a semi-restricted spell list, and make acquiring a new spell a quest objective instead of just a stroll down to Ye Olde Scroll Shop. I personally think spells make excellent loot. The fighter gets a magic helmet, the rogue gets an invisibility ring, the wizard finds an ancient magical scroll containing a new spell for them to learn. What's best is giving them a random spell instead of the most ideal one, so the wizard is forced to improvise how to use it to their advantage.

That'll only work if you also remove their ability to get free spells when they level up. Collegate Wizard would give them plenty of choice spells anyway, even if they can't buy scrolls.

JaronK

magic9mushroom
2010-03-03, 04:50 PM
Not really. Stealing his spellbook regularly is grounds for that. Denying him a few scrolls isn't. It just means he needs to grab Coligate (SIC) Wizard. Or Wyrm Wizard, or other feats/PrCs.


And even then, it's possible to make a potent Wizard using only the 4 spells/spell level. It just hurts your defenses and forces you to focus more on the reactions available.

It is screwing him unless you remove the entire magic item economy, because you're only removing the magic items that help him.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-03-03, 04:51 PM
Arcane spellsurge is nice, but after a certain point, a wizard v. Sorcerer fight becomes more about who goes first.

Superglucose
2010-03-03, 05:06 PM
In the hands of the people on this board, who like nothing better than hearing about every spell ever published, Wizards are considerably more powerful, since, for almost every situation, there has probably been a spell published for it. As such, with the format of "I need to beat X" (Which is how these things are generally presented here), Wizard is the obvious choice.
Kind of right.



In actual gameplay where you frequently sit down having no idea what diabolical schemes the DM has in store for you, or for people unwilling or unable to constantly update their spellbook with the most advantageous spells for the situation, sorcerers can be much better.
WRONG.

For example: our party cleared out a monastery from kobolds. We were heading to the basement to see what was what, with two likely outcomes: 1) overrun with kobolds, 2) overrun with undead. The Sorcerer, who had taken Scorching Ray, Enlarge Person, Shocking Grasp and Burning Hands (he was focusing on pew). Scorching Ray and Enlarge Person are very good spells. The Wizard on the other hand, prepared two Grease spells, a Color Spray spell, and Obscuring Mist, with his second level spells being Alter Self, Web, and Glitterdust. We encountered a skeleton in full plate with a greatsword (possibly magical, I haven't bothered to check yet) and a cleric. This made the sorcerer happy: he was able to Enlarge the barbarian and Scorching Ray the cleric and skeleton, dealing the damage that killed the bastards. The Wizard, on the other hand, was a bit short: he had to use two Grease spells to stop the DM's lucky dice from killing the barbarian and never really had a good opportunity to hit the Cleric.

And by "a bit short" I mean "completely stonewalled the undead who got off one shot in four rounds and never bothered touching the Cleric."

Now imagine if instead it had been a large hoard of Kobold Warrior 2s, the Sorcerer would've had a little more trouble. Sure he could "burning hands" but 4d4 isn't a guaranteed kill on 2d8 kobolds. Alternatively, "Color Spray" would have stopped most of them, "Grease" would've made it difficult for them to get to us, "web" would have stopped them if we needed to retreat, "glitterdust" would have blinded most of them making it easy to kill them, etc.

Or what if the Cleric had used Summon Monster 1 to summon a fire elemental? Or get fire resistance somehow?

The difference between Sorcerers and Wizards is this: Sorcs are always prepared for "generic encounter." Wizards have the option of being prepared for "generic encounter" or "specific encounter." Typically, the kind of spells that Sorcs learn are the kind of spells that wizards have at least one prepared of anyway, and the only time you'd need more than one is if you face the same encounter several times across the day.



Wizards are, potentially the most powerful class in the game. However, to reach that potential they require lots of out-of-game time looking through sourcebooks, asking questions on forums, and updating your spell list at the beginning of each session.
Wrong.

The sorcerer and wizard spell list is the same so saying that it takes more research for wizard players to figure out what spells are good than it does for sorcerer players is flat out and utterly wrong. If anything, it's easier for wizards because they get so many more spells known!



Now you may think this is the same for any Prepared Spellcaster, but Clerics and Druids of a significantly smaller spell list, and it tends to be more themed, so there isn't as much to look through.
... wrong. What? The Cleric list isn't significantly smaller than the wizard list. There are 39 first level Wizard spells in core and 25 first level cleric spells in core. A specialized wizard has to drop two schools, let's say enchantment and necromancy (smallest 1st level schools) which gives him 33 first level spells, while the Cleric gets two additional spells from their domain: 27.

Oooooo... six fewer spells!

But then it's even worse... a first level wizard with an int mod of +5 knows 8 first level spells. He gets to pick 8/33 spells while the Cleric at first level has to pick 4/27 (assuming wis of 20). Now I'm no mathemagician, but it seems like Clerics are going to have a harder time with that one.



Sorcerers have about the same level of prep time as most classes, yes they have more or less the same spell list size as wizards, but they don't need to pick spells as frequently.
What? No. Their spell list size is TINY compared to Wizards. For instance, at level 4, I know 5 2nd level spells while the party sorc knows 1 second level spell. How does that make the sorcerer more versatile? Because he can spontaneously choose what 2nd level spell he casts? hint: it'll be the one he knows.



Thus, a casual player who flips through sourcebooks while other people are taking their combat turn, will be much better off as a Sorcerer.
You have not demonstrated this at all. Your post is like this:

"Since the color of the sky is bluish-green and my computer is made of cheese, you should get a cat instead of a dog."

Wizards are more powerful. Why? Both they and sorcerers level the universe in one or two spells tops. The difference? Sorcerers have their one or two "level the universe" spells and Wizards have thirty "level the universe" spells. Before tier 2, power is determined by the quality of your list, but once you hit tier2 the quality doesn't get any better: no one (except StP erudite) has a better spell list than Sorcerers and Wizards, so you can't compare raw power anymore. Since the spells are all "win" buttons of equal power (between sorcerer and wizard) the more powerful is the person who can bring more of them to the field. Sorcerers can bring 3 9th level "win" buttons to the field, while Wizards can bring n 9th level "win" buttons to the field. Ergo, Wizards are more powerful.

But, as the tier system indicates, this is a fairly worthless comparison because they're both the most powerful class.

I would; however, like everyone to stop and actually think about all this "book keeping" that Wizards have: I pick 8 first level spells, and of those I can prepare 2 today. How much time and energy does that take you? I can prepare spells for a first level character in less than a minute. Watch:

"Grease, Color Spray, and Obscuring Mist in case we have to retreat."

If you're incredibly dense and it takes you the better part of an hour to pick three preparations of 8 spells, then you shouldn't play a sorcerer OR a wizard, and instead should play a barbarian where your only choice is "rage or not?"

But on the other hand, if you're intelligent enough to read a D&D book and understand how spellcasting works, you're probably not going to be bemoaning all the book work and leg work and oh me oh my I have to choose new spells every day?!?!

So, TL/DR:
Wizards are more powerful than Sorcerers. They require the same skillsets to play, that is, if you can play a good sorc then chances are you can play a good wizard.

Why?

Wizards are much more versatile (no matter what the sorc fanboys seem to think), int >cha (except in ego-whip defense!), wizards get their spells 1 level earlier, and last and least since both classes multi out, wizards get bonus feats.

Endarire
2010-03-03, 05:12 PM
Both classes are potent. Typically, a Wizard will win. Remember, D&D 3.5 came from WIZARDS of the Coast!

ScionoftheVoid
2010-03-03, 05:27 PM
Wizards are much more versatile (no matter what the sorc fanboys seem to think), int >cha (except in ego-whip defense!), wizards get their spells 1 level earlier, and last and least since both classes multi out, wizards get bonus feats.

I know all this stuff and the things in the rest of your post but quite seriously I am a Sorcerer fanboy and I don't think the Sorc is more versatile. I knew when I looked through the PHB for the first time which arcane full-caster I liked more. I also knew it was the weaker one. Spells known are pretty crippling and level behind progression is just another nail in the coffin of versatality let alone power. Sorcs are not even described as more versatile, it seems to be something that's just popped up due to the term "spontaneous caster". I love Sorcerers and probably will for a long time to come but it is hard for me to imagine a Sorcerer being versatile, let alone versatile compared to someone who can change their spells known every day (and can leave open slots if they don't want to prepare all their spells at once, giving them the choice of specialising to todays needs).

Basically "Wizards are much more versatile (despite what the term "spontaneous caster" seems to imply, though a Sorc's versatality is easily shot down by Table 3-17 of the Player's Handbook)..." is much more appropriate and accurate.

BRC
2010-03-03, 05:30 PM
Why?

Wizards are much more versatile (no matter what the sorc fanboys seem to think), int >cha (except in ego-whip defense!), wizards get their spells 1 level earlier, and last and least since both classes multi out, wizards get bonus feats.
Wizards are more powerful than sorcerers, I agreed on this. My point was not that Sorcerers are more powerful, my point was that it is easier for a sorcerer to be effective than a wizard.
I'd go through and argue with you point by point, counter your statements, or tell you how you misread what I was saying, but to be honest ,I've got some homework I've been putting off, so I need to make this quick.

The power of a Wizard is in their ability to bring the right tool for the right job. The power of the Sorcerer is their ability to use their tools more often. Do we agree on this point? Let's say we do.

Now, to reach it's full potential, a Wizard will need to know what it is facing (The more specific, the better), and have 8 hours to prepare. Out of game, this requires the wizard's player to look through spell books and spend time thinking about the best spells to prepare. That's a great strategy, if you are the type of person willing and able to do that. The more knowledge you have of what you are facing, and the more time you, as a player, spend figuring out what spells to prepare, the more effective the wizard is. If you don't have either of those things, and you just prepare a general spell list that you don't bother changing, you are just a weaker sorcerer with a few bonus feats.

A Sorcerer on the other hand picks more general spells every time they level up, rather than the wizard who can, theoretically, pick an entierly new set of spells every in-game day. Now, obviously, a Sorceror who carefully researches and considers which spells to pick will do better than one that just flips through the PHB and looks for which spells have the biggest numbers, but it's not as steep a curve as with wizards.

I know some players who make great wizards. I have also played with wizards who just pick a general spell list and almost never bother to change it. They would have been much more effective playing as Sorcerers.

Really, my point is simple, Wizards have a much greater potential to be powerful, if you are willing and able to put in the effort as a player. If you are not willing and able, you will do better as a Sorcerer.

Lysander
2010-03-03, 05:32 PM
Also, knowing a wide variety of spells allows the wizard to make pretty much any magical item they want.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-03-03, 05:56 PM
Now, to reach it's full potential, a Wizard will need to know what it is facing (The more specific, the better), and have 8 hours to prepare. Out of game, this requires the wizard's player to look through spell books and spend time thinking about the best spells to prepare. That's a great strategy, if you are the type of person willing and able to do that. The more knowledge you have of what you are facing, and the more time you, as a player, spend figuring out what spells to prepare, the more effective the wizard is. If you don't have either of those things, and you just prepare a general spell list that you don't bother changing, you are just a weaker sorcerer with a few bonus feats.

To reach full potential a Wizard does not prepare all their spells at once and adds more as the specialisation needed today becomes apparent. The Wizard has the choice to spend more time preparing spells, they do not need to. The bolded section is not true. Most things on Wizards, and more to the point most effective Wizard players, that I have read about have recommended having a general center to their list and altering spell slots not occupied or normally occupied by somehting less useful for today. A Wizard has the option to alter their spell list every day. Choosing to alter this list does not actually make a better Wizard however. You can have the same spells prepared every day and still be more useful than a Sorcerer. You are more likely to be better as a Wizard. If a Sorcerer chooses a bad spell (e.g. Knock) they're kinda screwed until they can replace it. This is true of a Wizard, but they can replace it tommorow or use an empty slot today to make up for it.

A Sorcerer has a much steeper learning curve than a Wizard. You fluff a spell choice? You've probably set yourself another level behind in casting progression as a Sorc because you get one spell of a level when it is first obtained. Do the same as a Wizard and you just remember to try something else in that slot, you have at least two spells known for that level and probably more.

TL;DR: Keeping a general list of spells which are not changed is a good Wizard strategy. Trawling through sourcebooks is not a requirement for playing a Wizard and for a new player is likely to happen less often than with a Sorc (they probably only look for spells when they get new ones anyway and after one bad choice a Sorcerer player is going to be very careful with their spells known).

So unless you can provide useful advice for Wizards which says that preparing the same spells every day is a very bad idea, and that reading through books for new spells is so incredibly useful for a Wizard, I at least am thouroughly unconvinced.:smalltongue:

Nothing to see here, I did not just imagine and respond to text which wasn't there.

Vinom
2010-03-03, 06:27 PM
I wouldn't attempt to argue against the fact that the stunted spell progression on a sorcerer makes it balanced. I would argue the contrary...

But does anyone know why WotC did it?

JoshuaZ
2010-03-03, 06:36 PM
I wouldn't attempt to argue against the fact that the stunted spell progression on a sorcerer makes it balanced. I would argue the contrary...

But does anyone know why WotC did it?

They thought that spontaneous casting would be a major advantage to the point where it would give them a serious advantage over wizards. That's the same reason they added the whole spontaneous casters having to increase caster time for metamagic.

And then once they did that for sorcerers they couldn't admit they were wrong. Which meant that Dread Necromancers and Warmages and every other spontaneous caster had to have the same weaker progression.

Volkov
2010-03-03, 06:39 PM
Vecna, Mordenkainen, and Zagyg were all Wizards. And they are the three most powerful mortals (Well, Former mortals in Vecna and Zagyg's case) to have ever lived in Greyhawk/core. That alone should speak for itself.

BRC
2010-03-03, 06:44 PM
I wouldn't attempt to argue against the fact that the stunted spell progression on a sorcerer makes it balanced. I would argue the contrary...

But does anyone know why WotC did it?
I think the assumption was that Arcane Casters would play as evocation-focused Blasters, focusing on whittling down a foes Hit Points rather than strategically taking care of them some other way. They expected them to be casting Magic Missile, but people realized Color Spray was better.

From the Rocket Tagger's perspective, spontaneous casting and more spells per day is a big advantage. But, since people don't play rocket tag, it's greatly overshadowed by prepared spellcasting and earlier access to spells.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-03, 06:47 PM
Vecna, Mordenkainen, and Zagyg were all Wizards. And they are the three most powerful mortals (Well, Former mortals in Vecna and Zagyg's case) to have ever lived in Greyhawk/core. That alone should speak for itself.

No. They are powerful for 2 reasons 1) plot 2) they are very high level characters. The high power level of those three says nothing about actual power comparison between the classes in game.

HunterOfJello
2010-03-03, 09:56 PM
Could we get some input from someone who has played both classes for at least 10 levels each and their opinion on which they enjoyed more?

Pluto
2010-03-04, 12:40 AM
I find it more rewarding to search for ways to solve problems with the wrong tools.

I remember my Sorcerers, like superheroes. Every one was distinct with its own powers and gaping flaws.

But yeah, Wizards can do everything. Playing a Sorcerer means drooling in anticipation of Dominate while the Wizard summons and possesses a demon, teleports the party to the BBEG's headquarters and turns the dragon into a newt.

Lysander
2010-03-04, 12:48 AM
That seems to be the common consensus. Being a wizard is better from the character's perspective, but being a sorcerer is better from the player's perspective. The goal shouldn't be "optimization" and overwhelming power, you should instead be continuously challenged but able to succeed through creative use of your talents. The fun isn't in winning, it's in earning your win.

Kylarra
2010-03-04, 12:53 AM
I remember all my wizards too. They were all rewarding in their own right. It's easy enough to not optimize a wizard towards overwhelming power and just play at "lower levels". One of my favorite characters was an evoker.

So YMMV on "Sorcerers are better from the player perspective and are more fun."

Roc Ness
2010-03-04, 12:57 AM
I prefer sorcerers, personally. For me the wizard is just too much book work, and predicting and stuff. Sorcerer (for me) is just fun in its simplicity.

JaronK
2010-03-04, 12:58 AM
I think it's more fair to say that Wizards are better at proactive play, while Sorcerers are better at reactive play. Thus, if you're planning what you want to do in advance and setting out to achieve it (we want to hunt down that dragon!) Wizards are superior, but if you're just having things thrown at you (suddenly, a dragon jumps out!) a Sorcerer will have a better time.

JaronK

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-03-04, 02:44 AM
Sorcerer/MotAO: Most of the wizard's versatility, with a tenth of the bookkeeping!

Also I don't think anyone has mentioned Wings of Cover or Wings of Flurry from RotD.

That said, a focused specialist wizard with a good general spell list is still going to be more versatile, especially with the big guns, when it comes to reactive play.

taltamir
2010-03-04, 03:02 AM
wizards...

1. Spells known:
When a sorcerer gains access to a new spell level, he starts with only ONE spell known, that is pathetic.
The wizard can know an infinite amount.
Also, boccob blessed book. (and it can also be used to generate infinite wealth).
Collegiate (and elven generalist, but that is usually a trap; double specialize, always!) give the wizard a ridiculous amount of spells known even without spending a single dime on scribing.

2. Spells level access:
The wizard is 1 level ahead of the sorcerer in max spell level known.

3. Spells per day:
The wizard should double specialize, giving him 2 extra spell slots per level. Thus, the wizard actually has MORE spells per day on his highest level. The sorcerer eventually catches up.

4. Skill points:
wizards got int as their main, they have tons of skillpoints.

5. Eliminate weakness:
a wizard can be eidetic caster, which replaces his familiar with the ability to memorize spells instead of using a spellbook. He needs magic incense (100gp per spell level; just like the magic ink) to memorize spells, but it eliminates the only real danger to his power.
Also, eschew materials if you are really paranoid.

6. Extra feats:
wizards get extra feats, sorcerers are a barren class bereft of such bonuses.

7. Metamagic:
the so called "flexibility" of the sorcerer to apply metamagic on the fly is a sham. Sorcerers can NOT use quicken, at all!
Furthermore, sorcerers must increase their casting time from 1 standard action to a full round, and cannot metamagic longer casting spells.
So the wizard is vastly better at applying metamagic.

8. Scribe scroll:
this might not be an awesome feat, but it counts as a crafting feat which can be used to qualify for PrCs (such as loremaster) or can be exchanged for other feats (using spells that let you exchange your feats, skills, and levels... I think, psychic reformation and chaos shuffle are but a few of the ways; oh, and maybe mindrape).

9. Don't mix flavor with reality:
Sorcerers are themselves limited, they must use spell components like a wizard does. this is a bigger liability than a spellbook. Flavor wise they shouldn't have to, but a sorcerer can't cast a fireball without bat guano, and cannot cast if he didn't prepare his slots in the morning for an hour.

10. charisma sucks:
a sorcerer has no social skills as class skills. Having high cha is a waste for them.
Charsima doesn't give anything in game, int gives skillpoints, wis gives will save.
Charisma gives crappy skills, int gives you knowledge, wisdom gives you listen, spot, search, etc.

11. mistakes:
the worst built wizard in the world is still a wizard, he just needs to go copy the right spells and he is almost as good as the perfectly built wizard.
if you chose bad spells as a sorcerer there is absolutely nothing you can do... on level up you can exchange 1 and only 1 spell. And IIRC not every level up...

All those drawbacks apply to all spontanous casters. heck, flavored souls have it even worse... they have cha for bonus spells and wisdom to determine the DC of their spells.

if you want a real spontanous caster, get warlocks. They are awesome to play (more fun then a wizard), very low maintenance, very little paperwork, their damage synnergizes with the rest of the party, highly effective, and are not shackled by vanacianism.
that being said, a wizard or sorcerer who knows what he is doing will wipe the floor with a warlock.

taltamir
2010-03-04, 03:09 AM
I wouldn't suggest doing it maliciously. Just explain to your player, before they finalize their class choice, that the way you keep wizards from becoming overpowered is giving them a somewhat random selection of spells. Tell them spells are gleaned from the rotted remains of ancient spellbooks in ancient dungeons, bargained for with secretive archmages, taken from the libraries of vanquished liches, and that learning a new spell, particularly a very powerful one, is as big a deal as a fighter finding a legendary sword. I think this is actually beneficial for the player. Questing for ultimate magical power is a lot more fun if you actually have to quest for it.

that could certainly be a fun game to play, but it isn't how the game actually works. you get 2 new spells at level up (4 with collegiate). So this is never really a problem.
now, it would be an interesting house rule, but not valid in a "wizard vs sorcerer" debate.

grautry
2010-03-04, 03:26 AM
that could certainly be a fun game to play, but it isn't how the game actually works. you get 2 new spells at level up (4 with collegiate). So this is never really a problem.
now, it would be an interesting house rule, but not valid in a "wizard vs sorcerer" debate.

And ultimately, harshly limiting the selection of spells the Wizard can learn is screwing the player over.

Why? Because the whole point of playing a Wizard over a Sorcerer is that you get access to many and varied spells.

If you're going to harshly limit the spell selection choices, you might as well just tell the player play a Sorcerer.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-03-04, 03:57 AM
wizards...

1. Spells known:
...
2. Spells level access
...Not much argument here, except that spells known is still limited by wealth and in-game access. Enough to matter? Maybe not, but worth mentioning.


3. Spells per day:
The wizard should double specialize, giving him 2 extra spell slots per level. Thus, the wizard actually has MORE spells per day on his highest level. The sorcerer eventually catches up.Not all wizards focused specialize, and that does weaken the versatility argument, but still, not much argument here.


4. Skill points:
wizards got int as their main, they have tons of skillpoints.They have enough for what they need, anyway, which is more than you can say for the sorcerer.


5. Eliminate weakness:
a wizard can be eidetic caster, which replaces his familiar with the ability to memorize spells instead of using a spellbook. He needs magic incense (100gp per spell level; just like the magic ink) to memorize spells, but it eliminates the only real danger to his power.
Also, eschew materials if you are really paranoid.I don't know about this. At low levels there are better alternate class features to replace the familiar, and at higher levels imbue familiar with spell ability + the myriad ways to defend your spellbook + having extra spellbooks is going to be more than worth it. That said, the spellbook weakness isn't a great argument in the first place, so the point is academic.


6. Extra feats:
wizards get extra feats, sorcerers are a barren class bereft of such bonuses.... Which is why you PrC out as soon as possible, of course. That said, in most cases the wizard gets Scribe Scroll (or Improved Initiative) + one extra bonus feat in most builds.


7. Metamagic:
the so called "flexibility" of the sorcerer to apply metamagic on the fly is a sham. Sorcerers can NOT use quicken, at all!
Furthermore, sorcerers must increase their casting time from 1 standard action to a full round, and cannot metamagic longer casting spells.
So the wizard is vastly better at applying metamagic.See, this is where I have to start disagreeing. At least two feats, one ACF, and Arcane Spellsurge all point towards that flexibility being less of a sham than you think.


8. Scribe scroll:
this might not be an awesome feat, but it counts as a crafting feat which can be used to qualify for PrCs (such as loremaster) or can be exchanged for other feats (using spells that let you exchange your feats, skills, and levels... I think, psychic reformation and chaos shuffle are but a few of the ways; oh, and maybe mindrape).The less cheesy way is to take the UA ACF that swaps wiz bonus feats for fighter bonus feats, such as Improved Initiative. Also, you already pointed out bonus feats.


9. Don't mix flavor with reality:
Sorcerers are themselves limited, they must use spell components like a wizard does. this is a bigger liability than a spellbook. Flavor wise they shouldn't have to, but a sorcerer can't cast a fireball without bat guano, and cannot cast if he didn't prepare his slots in the morning for an hour.I don't know about you, but my sessions rarely focus on the bat poop when people are casting spells. It's a second thought, but yes, Sorcerers should probably get Eschew Material Components for free; not like it's going to break anything.


10. charisma sucks:
a sorcerer has no social skills as class skills. Having high cha is a waste for them.
Charsima doesn't give anything in game, int gives skillpoints, wis gives will save.
Charisma gives crappy skills, int gives you knowledge, wisdom gives you listen, spot, search, etc.You're right, Sorcerers don't get any social skills to utilize their massive Charisma bonus! Oh, wait, you did that thing that makes me believe something which isn't true! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm) I don't know what it is, but it must take skill, which means you must be a wizard.

To be trained in such a skill.


11. mistakes:
the worst built wizard in the world is still a wizard, he just needs to go copy the right spells and he is almost as good as the perfectly built wizard.
if you chose bad spells as a sorcerer there is absolutely nothing you can do... on level up you can exchange 1 and only 1 spell. And IIRC not every level up...You mentioned Psychic Reformation previously in your post! And you're assuming the only thing a wizard can mess up is his spell list for that day. He could take bad feats, ban conjuration, or *shudder* go into Green Star Adept. There are myriad ways to ruin either character, but yes, Sorcerers require more careful spell selection.


All those drawbacks apply to all spontanous casters. heck, flavored souls have it even worse... they have cha for bonus spells and wisdom to determine the DC of their spells.1. Flavored Soul sounds like it truly sacrifices power for flavor. I wonder if the guy who made Lightning Warrior had input into its creation.

2. Beguiler.


if you want a real spontanous caster, get warlocks. They are awesome to play (more fun then a wizard), very low maintenance, very little paperwork, their damage synnergizes with the rest of the party, highly effective, and are not shackled by vanacianism.
that being said, a wizard or sorcerer who knows what he is doing will wipe the floor with a warlock.I wouldn't call a warlock a full fledged caster. Fun? Yes. Flavorful? Yes. Full-fledged spontaneous caster? Too limited.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-04, 06:21 AM
wizards...

1. Spells known:
When a sorcerer gains access to a new spell level, he starts with only ONE spell known, that is pathetic.
The wizard can know an infinite amount.
Also, boccob blessed book. (and it can also be used to generate infinite wealth).
Collegiate (and elven generalist, but that is usually a trap; double specialize, always!) give the wizard a ridiculous amount of spells known even without spending a single dime on scribing.

Knowstones.


2. Spells level access:
The wizard is 1 level ahead of the sorcerer in max spell level known.

Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. Also, White Dragonspawn + LA Buyoff.


3. Spells per day:
The wizard should double specialize, giving him 2 extra spell slots per level. Thus, the wizard actually has MORE spells per day on his highest level. The sorcerer eventually catches up.

Point, but giving up either Abjuration or Necromancy does hurt. Also, free Sorc levels as outlined above allow the Sorc to catch up here.


4. Skill points:
wizards got int as their main, they have tons of skillpoints.

Point.


5. Eliminate weakness:
a wizard can be eidetic caster, which replaces his familiar with the ability to memorize spells instead of using a spellbook. He needs magic incense (100gp per spell level; just like the magic ink) to memorize spells, but it eliminates the only real danger to his power.
Also, eschew materials if you are really paranoid.

Spellbook isn't all that much of a weakness to start with.


6. Extra feats:
wizards get extra feats, sorcerers are a barren class bereft of such bonuses.

2 extra feats are nice, yes.


7. Metamagic:
the so called "flexibility" of the sorcerer to apply metamagic on the fly is a sham. Sorcerers can NOT use quicken, at all!
Furthermore, sorcerers must increase their casting time from 1 standard action to a full round, and cannot metamagic longer casting spells.
So the wizard is vastly better at applying metamagic.

Rapid Metamagic fixes that. Arcane Spellsurge goes a step further and gives Sorcerers free quicken. Also, you can't deny that you won't always know what metamagic to apply (e.g. Silent and Still are more useful for a Sorcerer who can apply them situationally).


8. Scribe scroll:
this might not be an awesome feat, but it counts as a crafting feat which can be used to qualify for PrCs (such as loremaster) or can be exchanged for other feats (using spells that let you exchange your feats, skills, and levels... I think, psychic reformation and chaos shuffle are but a few of the ways; oh, and maybe mindrape).

Yeah, yeah.


9. Don't mix flavor with reality:
Sorcerers are themselves limited, they must use spell components like a wizard does. this is a bigger liability than a spellbook. Flavor wise they shouldn't have to, but a sorcerer can't cast a fireball without bat guano, and cannot cast if he didn't prepare his slots in the morning for an hour.

What? Sorcerers only need 15 minutes to prepare their spells, and there is no way in all nine hells that components by themselves are a bigger liability than components AND a spellbook.


10. charisma sucks:
a sorcerer has no social skills as class skills. Having high cha is a waste for them.
Charsima doesn't give anything in game, int gives skillpoints, wis gives will save.
Charisma gives crappy skills, int gives you knowledge, wisdom gives you listen, spot, search, etc.

Nice Bluff there, as pointed out. Also, Leadership says that Charisma is useful.


11. mistakes:
the worst built wizard in the world is still a wizard, he just needs to go copy the right spells and he is almost as good as the perfectly built wizard.
if you chose bad spells as a sorcerer there is absolutely nothing you can do... on level up you can exchange 1 and only 1 spell. And IIRC not every level up...

Yes, if you screw up a sorcerer it's screwed up. But it's not like there aren't ways to screw up a wizard too *cough*thoushaltnotlosecasterlevels*cough*.


All those drawbacks apply to all spontanous casters. heck, flavored souls have it even worse... they have cha for bonus spells and wisdom to determine the DC of their spells.

Favoured Souls have it a lot worse, but they're not on-topic.


if you want a real spontanous caster, get warlocks. They are awesome to play (more fun then a wizard), very low maintenance, very little paperwork, their damage synnergizes with the rest of the party, highly effective, and are not shackled by vanacianism.
that being said, a wizard or sorcerer who knows what he is doing will wipe the floor with a warlock.

Sorcerers aren't exactly vancian either, and Warlocks have even less "spells" known.

onthetown
2010-03-04, 06:48 AM
Sorcerers for a set theme (like ice, fire, etc) because you get a small collection of spells that you choose to fit the theme. I can't imagine playing my ice mage as a wizard; it would just be too enticing to buy other spells, and it's kind of nice flavour to assume he just has a natural affinity to the element.

Apart from that, I use wizards for anything else. Heck, it's pretty much all I play. Pathfinder gave them wonderful school powers and other extras for specializing, so my enchanter is kicking butt. :smallamused: Plus, since they aren't in that whole "affinity to a certain element/spell type" (just specialized in a school because they liked it) I'm happy buying all sorts of spells. My illusionist has something like 50+ in his spellbook right now. I haven't played a sorcerer in ages... So I'm a diehard wizard fan.

Trixie
2010-03-04, 07:28 AM
That isn't really true. Wizards have to pick spells off their class spell list only when they level up or shop for scrolls in a big town. Few wizards actually have more than 20-25 spells known per level.

Exactly. People shouting how superior Wizards are usually tend to assume they have free access to all spells. Unless there's Magic Tesco in your game, Wizard only gets 2 spells per level, and can cast less of them than Sorcerer. That was the intended way of balancing them, IMHO. Just don't give them any broken scrolls, charge full price for normal scrolls and spellbooks, components and such, make non-idiot enemies go after these. Wizard inherently has less money than Sorcerer and much more weak points. If you don't target them he will be a Mary Sue, but it is like giving Fighters free +20 to AC and complaining he can't be hit then.

Yeah, Wizard with good spells prepared is pretty good, but one with wrong spells is pretty much commoner. Yes, Sorcerer can pick wrong spells, too, but he gets some better spells (Wings of Flurry, anyone?) and doesn't have to worry how many utility spells like Teleport, Detect Magic or Invisibility he has to prepare at the expense of combat ones. All you need to worry is what should be taken/retrained at the new level, and if Sorcerer takes Mage of the Arcane Order he has access to all spells, mitigating this vulnerability.

Volkov
2010-03-04, 07:29 AM
Exactly. People shouting how superior Wizards are usually tend to assume they have free access to all spells. Unless there's Magic Tesco in your game, Wizard only gets 2 spells per level, and can cast less of them than Sorcerer. That was the intended way of balancing them, IMHO. Just don't give them any broken scrolls, charge full price for normal scrolls and spellbooks, components and such, make non-idiot enemies go after these. Wizard inherently has less money than Sorcerer and much more weak points. If you don't target them he will be a Mary Sue, but it is like giving Fighters free +20 to AC and complaining he can't be hit then.

Yeah, Wizard with good spells prepared is pretty good, but one with wrong spells is pretty much commoner. Yes, Sorcerer can pick wrong spells, too, but he gets some better spells (Wings of Flurry, anyone?) and doesn't have to worry how many utility spells like Teleport, Detect Magic or Invisibility he has to prepare at the expense of combat ones. All you need to worry is what should be taken/retrained at the new level, and if Sorcerer takes Mage of the Arcane Order he has access to all spells, mitigating this vulnerability.
Actually, even with the bare minimum of spells known per level, wizards still get more spells known that sorcerers. It's why they are top tier classes and not sorcerers.

Trixie
2010-03-04, 08:11 AM
They thought that spontaneous casting would be a major advantage to the point where it would give them a serious advantage over wizards. That's the same reason they added the whole spontaneous casters having to increase caster time for metamagic.

And then once they did that for sorcerers they couldn't admit they were wrong. Which meant that Dread Necromancers and Warmages and every other spontaneous caster had to have the same weaker progression.

Exactly. It would actually be balanced if the Wizards had full round metamagic, slower spell progression and less spells know. Throw in components-less magic for Sorcs, D8 hit die, ability to cast in light-medium armor and the gap is pretty much closed.

Yes, this dumb nerf is the thing that truly damages the class, not this whole prepared/spontaneous spells.


For example: our party cleared out a monastery from kobolds. We were heading to the basement to see what was what, with two likely outcomes: 1) overrun with kobolds, 2) overrun with undead.

[shrug] Clever DM: You heard that the evil wizard had dungeon full of zombies and skeletons. Your divinations fail, as they're blocked.

Sorc player: Eh. I guess Fireball will have to do.

Wiz player: I prepare list full of anti-undead spells!

DM: Okay, you travel there, your spells are useless. Your move, Mr commoner.

Wiz player: What?? But you said...

DM: Oh, the evil Wizard wasn't dumb and placed false gossip about his bone and meat golems. He even tailored them to look as closely to undead as he could! [evil snicker] I guess his 24 Int wasn't just for show, Mr Too-quick-to-assume.


Now imagine if instead it had been a large hoard of Kobold Warrior 2s, the Sorcerer would've had a little more trouble. Sure he could "burning hands" but 4d4 isn't a guaranteed kill on 2d8 kobolds.

4d4 = ~10. 2d8 = ~9. You can say that about saving these SoL Wizard spells, too.


The sorcerer and wizard spell list is the same so saying that it takes more research for wizard players to figure out what spells are good than it does for sorcerer players is flat out and utterly wrong. If anything, it's easier for wizards because they get so many more spells known!

But then it's even worse... a first level wizard with an int mod of +5 knows 8 first level spells. He gets to pick 8/33 spells.

Ok. Let's say your Wizard take 20 (out of 40) 1st level spells, take 20 (out of 40) 2nd level spells, take 20 (out of 40) 3rd level spells, take 20 (out of 40) 4th level spells...

Then, let's say your Wizard can prepare 6 (out of 20) 1st level spells, 6 (out of 20) 2nd level spells, 6 (out of 20) 3rd level spells, 6 (out of 20) 4th level spells...

How much time it will take? The number of combinations is what, a few billions? Trillions? :smallamused:

Now, how much time it takes for Sorc? He checks once, on level up (or even once every 2-3 levels). The amount of bookkeeping is infinitely smaller there.


Sorcerers can bring 3 9th level "win" buttons to the field, while Wizards can bring n 9th level "win" buttons to the field. Ergo, Wizards are more powerful.

[shrugs] to bring them, he needs to buy scrolls. Sorcerers can use them, too. Just pick the most often needed 9th levels, and, when you need to cast the others once in ten games, use MotAO, scrolls, or dozens of other methods to cast them.

Yes, on average, Wizard might be more versatile, but he can also be much less versatile, especially without all this accounting level bookkeeping.


If you're incredibly dense and it takes you the better part of an hour to pick three preparations of 8 spells, then you shouldn't play a sorcerer OR a wizard, and instead should play a barbarian where your only choice is "rage or not?"

Try 30 preparations out of 300 spells. You said Wizards shine when full of spells, right? By the way - isn't the amount of scrolls/books needed greater than Wizards entire WBL then? :smallamused:


But on the other hand, if you're intelligent enough to read a D&D book and understand how spellcasting works, you're probably not going to be bemoaning all the book work and leg work and oh me oh my I have to choose new spells every day?!?!

Billions-trillions of combinations when you hit later levels. That's chore, not fun.


int >cha (except in ego-whip defense!)

Someone haven't heard of Diplomancer. Yes, Int is good, but frankly, most of the time Wizard has to put SPs into skills he doesn't really need. Int 12-14 + human bonus is enough most of the time.


both classes multi out, wizards get bonus feats.

What? If you multi out of base class, you lose them.

Optimystik
2010-03-04, 08:27 AM
Vecna, Mordenkainen, and Zagyg were all Wizards. And they are the three most powerful mortals (Well, Former mortals in Vecna and Zagyg's case) to have ever lived in Greyhawk/core. That alone should speak for itself.

Whereas just about every dragon ever has been a sorcerer, and plenty of fiends as well.

Runestar
2010-03-04, 09:02 AM
From personal experience, a wizard knowing every spell in the game is vastly overrated. He won't have enough slots to take advantage of this, some spells are just too situational to ever prepare, I bet the player will end up forgetting half the spells he even had, and the wizard probably falls back on a small list of favoured spells.

That is why I love the focused specialist variant. It manages to combine the strengths of both the wizard and sorc (more slots, get new spells 1 lv earlier), and the drawbacks aren't necessarily any more debilitating than if you were to simply play a sorc. :smallamused:

JeminiZero
2010-03-04, 09:04 AM
[shrug] Clever DM: You heard that the evil wizard had dungeon full of zombies and skeletons. Your divinations fail, as they're blocked.

Sorc player: Eh. I guess Fireball will have to do.

Wiz player: I prepare list full of anti-undead spells!

DM: Okay, you travel there, your spells are useless. Your move, Mr commoner.

Wiz player: What?? But you said...

DM: Oh, the evil Wizard wasn't dumb and placed false gossip about his bone and meat golems. He even tailored them to look as closely to undead as he could! [evil snicker] I guess his 24 Int wasn't just for show, Mr Too-quick-to-assume.


Much as I like you Trixie, I dunno about this. The wizard could just as easily have prepped spells that work well against the undead, but also other stuff. And even if he did make such a huge tactical blunder, it will only last for a day.



Try 30 preparations out of 300 spells. You said Wizards shine when full of spells, right? By the way - isn't the amount of scrolls/books needed greater than Wizards entire WBL then? :smallamused:

Billions-trillions of combinations when you hit later levels. That's chore, not fun.


Its not nearly that bad. While there are many spells available, the list of good spells is substantially smaller. And furthermore, many of the good spells are utility: to be prepared only if you know you need it. Or put another way, you don't cast magic circle, animate dead, scry, teleport, simulacrum, genesis etc everyday, but to have it available when you know you need it is invaluable.

Of course MotAO makes all that sort of moot.

Trixie
2010-03-04, 09:23 AM
Whereas just about every dragon ever has been a sorcerer, and plenty of fiends as well.

Yes. Even the archetypical big bads of LotR, Sauron and Saruman, fit Sorcerer class much better than Wizard and showed just how much silver-tongued magic user can do even when he can't use his spells. So, Sorcerer's don't exactly lose in "iconic" division.


Much as I like you Trixie, I dunno about this. The wizard could just as easily have prepped spells that work well against the undead, but also other stuff. And even if he did make such a huge tactical blunder, it will only last for a day.

But that's the point - unless a Wizard is double-specialist or MotAO he simply can't prepare generic spells for even 2-3 encounters, much less 4-5. He has to rely on his tailored list to make what little he can cast count.

Now, as for the situation - What if the party doesn't have 24 hours? What if they go away for 24 hours, Wizard prepares anti-golem spells, only to find enemy noticed them and replaced guards with undead or aberrations in the meantime? What if going away pushes fallen comrade past raise dead limits? What if "red" dragon is really white who painted himself red (to not give any magical aura) to both appear more dangerous and to battle guys packing anti-fire buffs with his cold breath (which means it is going to be extra damaging)? Int 16+ enemies should use every advantage they can and every one they cannot if they can get away with it :smalltongue:

Being specialist is murderous when you can fight your chosen foe, but crippling on any other occasion, and the amount of paperwork and assumptions Wizard requires, well...

I personally don't like them, I'd consider them fair after the Wiz/Sorc fix I mentioned above.

JeminiZero
2010-03-04, 10:28 AM
Re-reading my post, I realize I put that particlar statement in a very very bad form. What I meant to say was, he could prepare spells which are multipurpose, able to work most kinds of enemies, including undead. The statement was ambigous enough to mean he could prepare 2 seperate sets of spells, one set that worked on undead, and one that worked on other stuff, which is the intepretation you derived. Sorry about that.:smallredface:



But that's the point - unless a Wizard is double-specialist or MotAO he simply can't prepare generic spells for even 2-3 encounters, much less 4-5. He has to rely on his tailored list to make what little he can cast count.


Well, actually he can. Lets say a level... 8 wizard hears he's going off to face a dungeon of undead. What spells might he try to avoid?
1. Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Clumsiness, Charm Person, Sleep, Color Spray
2. Ray of Stupidity, Cloud of Bewilderment, Grave Mist, Touch of Idiocy
3. Stinking Cloud, Deep Slumber, Ray of Exhaustion, Hold Person, Shivering Touch
4. Enervation, Confusion, Burning Blood, Charm Monster
As well as any cold spells, since skellies are immune to those.

Quite a list, as undead (or constructs for that matter) have a bunch of immunities. But now for the bigger question on what he might try to pack:
1. Grease, Enlarge Person, Magic Missle, Lesser orb of X Protection from Evil
2. Web, Glitterdust, Invisiblity, Rope Trick, Minor Image, Baleful Transposition, Greater Slide, Shatter
3. Unluck, Haste, Fly, Slow, Greater Magic Weapon, Legion of Sentinels, Bands of Steel, Chain Missle, Halt Undead, Magic Circle against Evil
4. Solid Fog, Greater Invisibility, Resilient Sphere, Black Tentacles, Defenestrating Sphere, Bestow Curse, Orb of X

Again, it is quite a substantial list, because... well a wizard with time to prepare is rarely out of spell options. :smalltongue: But even if he wasn't facing undead, a lot of the spells on that list would still work. Only those bolded are solely effective against undead.

This list is so long in fact, that even if many of them were on the list of the Sorcerer accompanying him (if there is one), he could focus on spells the Sorcerer does not have, and still be have a list that is effective for most situations.

Lysander
2010-03-04, 10:45 AM
One nice thing about the wizard is that they can afford to pick up highly situational spells. For example let's say there's a spell called "Instant Castle" that, in exchange for a reasonable gp cost, summons an immense permanent stone castle. Even though the wizard doesn't plan on making many castles they can afford to take the spell and use it whenever they need a new home. Maybe they'd only cast it every few decades.

The sorcerer on the other hand won't take "Instant Castle" because they're only going to want spells they need on a daily basis. So the sorcerer would probably need to operate in a more roundabout way, like hiring an outsider to build the castle, creating a skeleton workforce to build it manually, or by actually hiring workmen.

Optimystik
2010-03-04, 10:52 AM
One nice thing about the wizard is that they can afford to pick up highly situational spells. For example let's say there's a spell called "Instant Castle" that, in exchange for a reasonable gp cost, summons an immense permanent stone castle. Even though the wizard doesn't plan on making many castles they can afford to take the spell and use it whenever they need a new home. Maybe they'd only cast it every few decades.

Funnily enough, there is such a spell - Ice Castle in Frostburn :smallbiggrin:


The sorcerer on the other hand won't take "Instant Castle" because they're only going to want spells they need on a daily basis. So the sorcerer would probably need to operate in a more roundabout way, like hiring an outsider to build the castle, creating a skeleton workforce to build it manually, or by actually hiring workmen.

Or a scroll...

I'm arguing for neither class. Tiers are one thing, but in the right hands a well-made sorcerer can rival even the best-made wizard. About the only hard distinction between them is that Sorcerers get their spells more slowly. Everything else can be bypassed in some way.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-04, 11:04 AM
Or a scroll...

I'm arguing for neither class. Tiers are one thing, but in the right hands a well-made sorcerer can rival even the best-made wizard. About the only hard distinction between them is that Sorcerers get their spells more slowly. Everything else can be bypassed in some way.

Just to add: runestaves pimped them a little bit more. Nice items.

tyckspoon
2010-03-04, 11:16 AM
Now, as for the situation - What if the party doesn't have 24 hours? What if they go away for 24 hours, Wizard prepares anti-golem spells, only to find enemy noticed them and replaced guards with undead or aberrations in the meantime? What if going away pushes fallen comrade past raise dead limits? What if "red" dragon is really white who painted himself red (to not give any magical aura) to both appear more dangerous and to battle guys packing anti-fire buffs with his cold breath (which means it is going to be extra damaging)? Int 16+ enemies should use every advantage they can and every one they cannot if they can get away with it :smalltongue:


I would think you're probably a little screwed anyway if you're dealing with an enemy that can have an entirely different crew of minions on-call in just 24 hours (or, rather, you'd probably have had to fight them deeper into the adventure instead of as door-guards anyway.) For the dragon? Be happy- Whites are very, very weak compared to Reds. So you're running Resist Energy (Fire) instead of Resist Energy (Cold)- that's ok, Whites have the weakest breath weapons anyway. Soak it up and move on- it's not even as bad as somebody casting Fireball at you. Use the rest of the spells you were going to use on the Red. You can't use Shivering Touch, but other than that the same useful spells are still useful (unless you were dumb enough to cripplingly over-specialize and prepare nothing but Cold-subbed nukes.. which is a player self-nerf and not a class issue.)

Lysander
2010-03-04, 11:52 AM
Funnily enough, there is such a spell - Ice Castle in Frostburn :smallbiggrin:



Or a scroll...

I'm arguing for neither class. Tiers are one thing, but in the right hands a well-made sorcerer can rival even the best-made wizard. About the only hard distinction between them is that Sorcerers get their spells more slowly. Everything else can be bypassed in some way.

There are some spells though that a wizard can take advantage of simply because they're free. A sorcerer might not take Phase Door for example since it's a highly situational spell. If he wants a Phase Door somewhere in his mansion he could buy a scroll for it. A wizard on the other hand can cast Phase Door for free. There's no reason they couldn't cover every single wall, ceiling, and floor with phase doors. Unless they have a better use for a 7th level slot that day why not? This sort of "I probably don't need it but why not" kind of attitude extends to everything a high level wizard does. I can probably get along just fine with a castle on the material plane, but why not make it a castle in my own private universe?

Thorcrest
2010-03-04, 12:06 PM
Hmmm... I like the: We're fighting skeletons better not prepare X and prepare Y instead as they are immune to X but not Y. First of all, any character acting entirely on gossip and rumour is... well... frankly, very gullible. Second, Since when do Wizards actually invest in knowledge (Dungeoneering) or other knowledges that grant the ability to know monster weaknesses/immunities? To busy with their spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana) skills usually. Even if they do have it, it is wrong to prepare spells based on player information, due to perusing the books, that the character does not have, without a succesful knowledge check. Only able to predict reliably for magical creatures granted by Knowledge (Arcana), but a roll still needs to be made.

tyckspoon
2010-03-04, 12:14 PM
-stuff about Knowledges-.

:smallconfused::smallconfused:

Wizards have all Knowledges as class skills. They are also Int-based. They will be receiving 3-4 skill points per level above and beyond their base 2, at minimum. Their class skill list contains no useful skills except Spellcraft, Concentration (that's the 2 base) and Knowledges. Why would you assume a Wizard doesn't have as many Knowledges as his skill points allow? Something like Planes, Arcana, Dungeoneering, and.. oh, something like Architecture is a pretty traditional Wizard skillset (no Religion for undead, but that's because a 'typical' party assumes a divine caster who can tell you about them.)

Lysander
2010-03-04, 12:18 PM
I like to imagine a wizard who leads a balanced social life and invested plenty of points in Profession (Pastry Chef), Profession (Little League Coach), Profession (Matchmaker)...

Xenogears
2010-03-04, 12:32 PM
I like to imagine a wizard who leads a balanced social life and invested plenty of points in Profession (Pastry Chef), Profession (Little League Coach), Profession (Matchmaker)...

Don't forget Craft (Insanity).

Trixie
2010-03-04, 12:51 PM
I would think you're probably a little screwed anyway if you're dealing with an enemy that can have an entirely different crew of minions on-call in just 24 hours (or, rather, you'd probably have had to fight them deeper into the adventure instead of as door-guards anyway.

Um, summoning/gating/planar allying is easy. Or have three very different sets of guards, rotate them so no one really prepared for one set could defeat the other two. It was just an example of simple deception. Either Wizard takes 24 hour breaks after each encounter if against someone planning, or he loses much of the multi-role ability.


For the dragon? Be happy- Whites are very, very weak compared to Reds. So you're running Resist Energy (Fire) instead of Resist Energy (Cold)- that's ok, Whites have the weakest breath weapons anyway. Soak it up and move on- it's not even as bad as somebody casting Fireball at you. Use the rest of the spells you were going to use on the Red. You can't use Shivering Touch, but other than that the same useful spells are still useful (unless you were dumb enough to cripplingly over-specialize and prepare nothing but Cold-subbed nukes.. which is a player self-nerf and not a class issue.)

Except White of the same size and CR is going to be older than Red, or packing extra class levels. Let's say Large:

Large Red Dragon is Juvenile, CR 10, HP 168. That's all.

Large White Dragon is Adult, CR 10, HP 190, DR 5, SR 18, better saves.

Alternatively, Young Adult, which, with CR 10 gives him 3 levels in melee class (Warblade, anyone?) or 6 levels of caster - while retaining HP ~175, SR 16 and DR 5. Slap 6 levels of Warlock on him and he will massacre the party.

All I'm saying is, on higher levels preparing to take on tough foes takes time, and it is easy to over-think. It is extra easy to both over-think and cripple yourself on the same time if you're a Wizard, especially if DM isn't dumb and plays thinking enemies accordingly and doesn't let you use metagame knowledge.

As for utility, one use spells - if they're really so one use, Sorcerer can use scrolls. Still, yes, I admitted that this rare versatility would make Wizard balanced after all the fixes above.


Don't forget Craft (Insanity).

Don't forget cobbling :smallamused:

Volkov
2010-03-04, 12:55 PM
Um, summoning/gating/planar allying is easy. Or have three very different sets of guards, rotate them so no one really prepared for one set could defeat the other two. It was just an example of simple deception. Either Wizard takes 24 hour breaks after each encounter if against someone planning, or he loses much of the multi-role ability.



Except White of the same size and CR is going to be older than Red, or packing extra class levels. Let's say Large:

Large Red Dragon is Juvenile, CR 10, HP 168. That's all.

Large White Dragon is Adult, CR 10, HP 190, DR 5, SR 18, better saves.

Alternatively, Young Adult, which, with CR 10 gives him 3 levels in melee class (Warblade, anyone?) or 6 levels of caster - while retaining HP ~175, SR 16 and DR 5. Slap 6 levels of Warlock on him and he will massacre the party.

All I'm saying is, on higher levels preparing to take on tough foes takes time, and it is easy to over-think. It is extra easy to both over-think and cripple yourself on the same time if you're a Wizard, especially if DM isn't dumb and plays thinking enemies accordingly and doesn't let you use metagame knowledge.

As for utility, one use spells - if they're really so one use, Sorcerer can use scrolls. Still, yes, I admitted that this rare versatility would make Wizard balanced after all the fixes above.



Don't forget cobbling :smallamused:
Play a level 20 game and see how far behind a sorcerer lags behind wizards, clerics, druids, and erudites.

Eric Tolle
2010-03-04, 03:04 PM
Exactly. People shouting how superior Wizards are usually tend to assume they have free access to all spells. Unless there's Magic Tesco in your game, Wizard only gets 2 spells per level, and can cast less of them than Sorcerer.

I've seen that tried in a couple games. The obvious solution the players came up with was to either grab the library of the next wizard they defeated, or subsidize the cost of the wizard to build his own library, and research spells. The GMs were forced to either explain why a wizard couldn't use one of his major class abilities, or suddenly start railroading the players so they had no down time.

I did see a number of question and answer sessions along the lines of:
"So why do you want us to take five weeks to research Teleport?"
"How long will it take us to travel to the other continent?"
"About three months- oh. Never mind."

Tyndmyr
2010-03-04, 03:10 PM
Downtime is mostly unpreventable if the players are willing to jump the tracks, and have a caster with a few levels.

And yeah, finding spellbooks of other casters is a great way to solve the spell limitation problem. Expect traps.

Protip: Defensive battles work best for collecting spells. Abuse wings of cover, etc to survive as long as possible before killing the other wizard. Why? Because the DM is going to at least admit that any spells he cast are in his spellbook. You want that list as large as possible.

I suppose you could have a complete lack of other casters around...but in that case, you become a god among mortals. IE, the caster becomes imbalanced simply by virtue of existing.

taltamir
2010-03-04, 03:56 PM
Exactly. People shouting how superior Wizards are usually tend to assume they have free access to all spells. Unless there's Magic Tesco in your game, Wizard only gets 2 spells per level, and can cast less of them than Sorcerer.
SL = spell level
CL = caster level

lets look at spell level 2.
Wizard gets 1+int+2specialize SL2 spells at CL3. And he knowns at least 2 SL2 spells (more if he has collegiate, gets crolls, etc). but at a minimum, he knows 2.
At CL4 he now knows a minimum of 4 spells from SL2, and has 2+int+2specialize spells per day.
A sorcerer only gets access to it at CL4, at which point he gets 3+cha spells per day at that slot. 1 more than a generalist wizard, same amount as a specialist, 1 less than a focused specialist. And he gets ONE spell known.
Assuming that there are 0 scrolls in the game and that enemy spellbooks poof out of existance when captured, and that other wizards all flat out refuse to trade with you, a wizard is stuck with only 4 spells from SL2 forever (at a minimum... he could get double with collegiate).
The sorcerer gets a second SL2 spell at CL5, a third at CL7, a fourth at CL9 (matching the wizards spells known of level 2), and the final 5th spell known from SL2 at CL11. but remember, that at CL11 the wizard has him tied on SL3 spells known, and has him beat on known spells from SL4, SL5 and the wizard actually gets SL6.

tell me if I need to actually make a chart.

Lysander
2010-03-04, 03:58 PM
The solution is to assume that there are a few common spells that everyone has, a couple harder to find spells. Most wizards you face will mostly have the same spells as you, with a handful of exceptions. So each time you defeat a wizard you only get a couple new spells, even if their spellbook contains dozens.

The other solution is not to make high level wizards that common an opponent. Use sorcerers instead : ) A sorcerer is actually a great BBEG because your players can learn their abilities and devise a strategy to defeat them. And even at epic levels their magic is going to be limited enough that they won't be able to automatically defeat your players, even if there's only one or two primary casters in the party and the rest are a bard, a fighter, a rogue, a ranger/barbarian, etc. To balance out their limited spell list give the BBEG the leadership feat, a high level cleric cohort, and a huge number of mooks like hobgoblins.

Volkov
2010-03-04, 04:04 PM
The solution is to assume that there are a few common spells that everyone has, a couple harder to find spells. Most wizards you face will mostly have the same spells as you, with a handful of exceptions. So each time you defeat a wizard you only get a couple new spells, even if their spellbook contains dozens.

The other solution is not to make high level wizards that common an opponent. Use sorcerers instead : ) A sorcerer is actually a great BBEG because your players can learn their abilities and devise a strategy to defeat them. And even at epic levels their magic is going to be limited enough that they won't be able to automatically defeat your players, even if there's only one or two primary casters in the party and the rest are a bard, a fighter, a rogue, a ranger/barbarian, etc. To balance out their limited spell list give the BBEG the leadership feat, a high level cleric cohort, and a huge number of mooks like hobgoblins.

The cleric, being a top tier class would realistically do:

A:Go clericzilla on the sorcerer and kick his rear end and take over himself.
B:sabatoge the Sorcerer's efforts and try to present a nice face for the PC's so he can take over unmolested.
C: Simply not be present to help the sorcerer when the PC's arrive, wait for the sorcerer to die and for the PC's to leave, then take over.

taltamir
2010-03-04, 04:08 PM
thanks for pointing out that sorcerers have bluff... but bluff is only ONE skill, he doesn't have social skillS (plural), he has ONE social skill. And not the best one. he cannot function as a face, heck he cannot even defend himself against other's bluffs with a sense motive.

Lysander
2010-03-04, 04:10 PM
We're talking an epic sorcerer, maybe even a lich, and his maybe level 17 cleric cohort. The cleric would probably see the advantages in working with the sorcerer just because of his sheer power, even if the cleric has a wider range of spells.

Volkov
2010-03-04, 04:14 PM
We're talking an epic sorcerer, maybe even a lich, and his maybe level 17 cleric cohort. The cleric would probably see the advantages in working with the sorcerer just because of his sheer power, even if the cleric has a wider range of spells.

An epic level sorcerer can get up to a level 19 cohort and/or minion(minions and lackeys work just like leadership's followers and cohorts, except villains don't even have to do anything to get it) at minimum. He could get both a level 19+ cohort and minion for the extra lulz. But if both are clerics, the sorcerer will find himself manipulated by them. Also, bad OOTS reference.

Chaelos
2010-03-04, 04:14 PM
My general observations (shortened, because I don't really have time to get fully into this):

Wizard >>> Sorcerer in terms of theoretical power, where many variables are assumed and everyone always has access to everything they need.

Wizard =/< Sorcerer in terms of "actual" power in a "real" game, where there isn't GM forewarning of players what they'll face tomorrow, there isn't infinite time or money to get a wizard access to every spell that ever there was, and players don't play with the Spell Compendium open in front of them all the time. (Yes, I realize this is "many variables assumed", but these are more commonly used in my experience.)

Sorcerer > Wizard in terms of general fun and ease of play.

(Yes, Intelligence > Charisma, Wizard gets bonus feats, and gets access to higher spell levels earlier. I'm not hating on wizards by any means--I just think people grossly overstate their power level based on Test of Spite and charop theories that don't always hold up when the rubber meets the road.)

aje8
2010-03-04, 04:22 PM
Wizard is more powerful. Fun is highly subjective. I like Wizards, but many like Sorceres.

Thier power has almost nothing to do with preperation. That Wizards need to know what's coming to be good is a total fallacy. Playing for an entire level without once changing your prepared spells as a Wizard happens frequently for me, anyway. You have enough slots and there are enough versatile spells that you rarley find yourself without a good solution when facing any problem. I generally have no idea what my DMs going to throw at me and deal with it perfectly anyways.

Plus, being a full level ahead of their spell progression is HUGE because of the quadratic power gain of spells.

Wizards power is dependant on the scroll availability DM gives you. However, that's not even much of a problem if you take Collegiate Wizard. (4 spells a level is basically enough to fill your slots.)

taltamir
2010-03-04, 04:31 PM
Thier power has almost nothing to do with preperation. That Wizards need to know what's coming to be good is a total fallacy. Playing for an entire level without once changing your prepared spells as a Wizard happens frequently for me, anyway. You have enough slots and there are enough versatile spells that you rarley find yourself without a good solution when facing any problem. I generally have no idea what my DMs going to throw at me and deal with it perfectly anyways.

Plus, being a full level ahead of their spell progression is HUGE because of the quadratic power gain of spells.
Agreed, I have a "Starndard loadout" of spells which I never really change as a wizard, and I never use divitionation. I go into situations blindly...
I tried a sorcerer once... his spells known made me cry.


Wizards power is dependant on the scroll availability DM gives you. However, that's not even much of a problem if you take Collegiate Wizard. (4 spells a level is basically enough to fill your slots.)

Bah, scrolls scmolls..
first of all, scrolls are a terribly inefficient way to scribe spells, you want to pay someone to copy spells from their book (50gp per spell level + 100gp per SL for scribing). or just swap spell A for spell B (two wizards in one party = win).
But even without a single scroll ever, and even without collegiate (or elven generalist), you still get 4 spells known by the same time the sorcerer has ONE spell known... it takes the sorc 5 levels to catch up, at 7 lelvels later the sorcerer finally has 1 more spell known at that level than you (while you still have more spells known for every higher level).

So a wizard beats sorc in spells known without getting a single scroll, copying a single spell, using a single feat, etc... there is simply no comparison.
and you don't need access to all 976 wizard spells to be awesome. heck, the most broken spells are all core.

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-04, 05:50 PM
Hi there. I'm new here. I like this place.

Has it been mentioned that IF wizards use their free feats to make items that will in essence put them behind Sorcerers as far as XP is concerned. That includes scrolls of course. Enough item creation and the wiz gets a new spell level at the same time as a sorc.

Also, there is a feat (sorry can't remember the name or source book) that allows a skill to be treated as a class skill rather than cross-class. Use magic device as a class skill for the sorc would solve many thoughts on weakness.

Lets not forget that it costs money as per the RAW to play a wizard. Scribing scrolls, making items(assuming they do), etc. Level per level the sorc would have more cash available to spend on filling his perceived weaknesses. And since by default he has every spell school available none are restricted to him, meaning he isn't a specialist.

Often times if a party doesn't know what they will be facing a wizard uses the same spells each time, sounds like a sorc to me. But with judicious use of divination spells insight may be gained which again makes the wizard more effective.

Also let's not forget that a wizards spells are not guaranteed to be learned like they are for sorc. I remember failing two consecutive levels trying to learn fly. It happens. 1 in 20 remember.

By and large classes are only tools. It's more important who the user is (player).


Having played both classes I will say that sorc are a different type of fun:making the best with what life gave you. Where as with wiz: feeling proud I divine the best spells to use or relied on my hunch.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-03-04, 05:53 PM
thanks for pointing out that sorcerers have bluff... but bluff is only ONE skill, he doesn't have social skillS (plural), he has ONE social skill. And not the best one. he cannot function as a face, heck he cannot even defend himself against other's bluffs with a sense motive.You said the Sorcerer has no social skills, not that he "doesn't have social skillS," which would still be vague. And this isn't shadowrun; you can have more than one person properly contribute to the outcome of a social encounter, and a well-timed bluff can do quite a bit. Yes, limited skill points/skill selection is a problem for a sorcerer, but you were making that problem look worse than it already was.

On another note, Runestaves are wonderful items.

mostlyharmful
2010-03-04, 06:03 PM
Hi there. I'm new here. I like this place.

welcome. Hope you enjoy yourself.


Has it been mentioned that IF wizards use their free feats to make items that will in essence put them behind Sorcerers as far as XP is concerned. That includes scrolls of course. Enough item creation and the wiz gets a new spell level at the same time as a sorc.

xp is a river. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872242/Experience_is_a_River)


Also, there is a feat (sorry can't remember the name or source book) that allows a skill to be treated as a class skill rather than cross-class. Use magic device as a class skill for the sorc would solve many thoughts on weakness.

Wizards get both more feats and more skill-points, plus with item crafting skill boosters it's no trouble to crank a skill check through the stratosphere with or without an in class high skill rank.


Lets not forget that it costs money as per the RAW to play a wizard. Scribing scrolls, making items(assuming they do), etc. Level per level the sorc would have more cash available to spend on filling his perceived weaknesses. And since by default he has every spell school available none are restricted to him, meaning he isn't a specialist.

Secret Page as written, free spells at level up, rational wizards sharing spells and bound outsiders with money making abilities (free wish) mean money is worthless beyound a certain level. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dungeonomicon_%28DnD_Other%29/Economicon)


Often times if a party doesn't know what they will be facing a wizard uses the same spells each time, sounds like a sorc to me. But with judicious use of divination spells insight may be gained which again makes the wizard more effective.

Divination spells that a wizard can use if he feels like it when he wants but a sorc can't choose to know.... plus just because a wizard doesn't use a spell everyday doesn't mean he can't benefit from knowing it. Fabricate, Teleport, Planer Binding, Magic Circle against Magic, Mindrape, Contact Other Plane, Legend Lore, etc.... there's plenty that Wizards get that are really REALLY useful once in a while but suck as choices for spells known.


Also let's not forget that a wizards spells are not guaranteed to be learned like they are for sorc. I remember failing two consecutive levels trying to learn fly. It happens. 1 in 20 remember.

Yes. They really are. you get two free for level-ups and if you max ranks in spellcraft and have a positive Int mod you should be passing all relivant spellcraft checks on a 1.


By and large classes are only tools. It's more important who the user is (player).

couldn't agree more BUT one's easier to take further.


Having played both classes I will say that sorc are a different type of fun:making the best with what life gave you. Where as with wiz: feeling proud I divine the best spells to use or relied on my hunch.

yup, except if you don't know what to expect Wizard's are still good. Between long term preperations (symbols, Runes, bound minions, created minions, contingencies, etc...) and useful battlefield control/buff/debuffs that work 99.9% of the time you'll be below theoretical max but still be a tier 1.

Volkov
2010-03-04, 06:12 PM
Hi there. I'm new here. I like this place.

Has it been mentioned that IF wizards use their free feats to make items that will in essence put them behind Sorcerers as far as XP is concerned. That includes scrolls of course. Enough item creation and the wiz gets a new spell level at the same time as a sorc.

Also, there is a feat (sorry can't remember the name or source book) that allows a skill to be treated as a class skill rather than cross-class. Use magic device as a class skill for the sorc would solve many thoughts on weakness.

Lets not forget that it costs money as per the RAW to play a wizard. Scribing scrolls, making items(assuming they do), etc. Level per level the sorc would have more cash available to spend on filling his perceived weaknesses. And since by default he has every spell school available none are restricted to him, meaning he isn't a specialist.

Often times if a party doesn't know what they will be facing a wizard uses the same spells each time, sounds like a sorc to me. But with judicious use of divination spells insight may be gained which again makes the wizard more effective.

Also let's not forget that a wizards spells are not guaranteed to be learned like they are for sorc. I remember failing two consecutive levels trying to learn fly. It happens. 1 in 20 remember.

By and large classes are only tools. It's more important who the user is (player).


Having played both classes I will say that sorc are a different type of fun:making the best with what life gave you. Where as with wiz: feeling proud I divine the best spells to use or relied on my hunch.

Classes are only tools? Hmm, I must have missed the fireball lobbing level one human commoners.

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-04, 06:15 PM
Wizards get both more feats and more skill-points, plus with item crafting skill boosters it's no trouble to crank a skill check through the stratosphere with or without an in class high skill rank.


Of course, if your entire party sits and watchs you make items instead of go out and adventure(gain XP). My party wouldn't do it.


Secret Page as written, free spells at level up, rational wizards sharing spells and bound outsiders with money making abilities (free wish) mean money is worthless beyound a certain level. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dungeonomicon_%28DnD_Other%29/Economicon)


I don't even need to read that and I can tell you no DM worth his salt will allow such shenanigans.


Divination spells that a wizard can use if he feels like it when he wants but a sorc can't choose to know.... plus just because a wizard doesn't use a spell everyday doesn't mean he can't benefit from knowing it. Fabricate, Teleport, Planer Binding, Magic Circle against Magic, Mindrape, Contact Other Plane, Legend Lore, etc.... there's plenty that Wizards get that are really REALLY useful once in a while but suck as choices for spells known.



Have you read mindrape? It's soooo broken it's sick. LOL


Yes. They really are. you get two free for level-ups and if you max ranks in spellcraft and have a positive Int mod you should be passing all relivant spellcraft checks on a 1.


A 1 is always failure. Well RAW it is.



yup, except if you don't know what to expect Wizard's are still good. Between long term preperations (symbols, Runes, bound minions, created minions, contingencies, etc...) and useful battlefield control/buff/debuffs that work 99.9% of the time you'll be below theoretical max but still be a tier 1.


Totally agree. Yet there will be times when you just NEED one more fireball and simply don't have one because you played a wizard. That happens more times then people generally admit


I don't understand what you mean by tiers....

Volkov
2010-03-04, 06:20 PM
I don't understand what you mean by tiers....
Taken from another wbesite

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Examples: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Examples: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges)

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribue to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

Examples: Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter (Dungeoncrasher Variant)

Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the rest of the party is weak in that situation and the encounter matches their strengths. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.

Examples: Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife, Expert, OA Samurai, Paladin, Knight

Tier 6: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise. DMs will need to work hard to make encounters that this sort of character can contribute in with their mechanical abilities. Will often feel worthless unless the character is seriously powergamed beyond belief, and even then won't be terribly impressive. Needs to fight enemies of lower than normal CR. Class is often completely unsynergized or with almost no abilities of merit. Avoid allowing PCs to play these characters.

Examples: CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner

And then there's the Truenamer, which is just broken (as in, the class was improperly made and doesn't function appropriately).

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-04, 06:28 PM
Tier 1: Capable of .......

So all this is taken into consideration statically and in theory ? No imput from the DM? Because if I was a PC capable of "doing absolutely everything" and had "world changing powers at high levels" you can bet your bottom dollar the NPCs would too. Meaning they would cancel each other out.


I guess basically I don't like classifying classes. So I'll just accept that you guys see the game differently than me.

Thank you for the prompt response.

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-04, 06:29 PM
Classes are only tools? Hmm, I must have missed the fireball lobbing level one human commoners.

LOL sadly that 'tool' doesn't have the fireball capability. Or perhaps I should say that he has UMD maxed out and has skill focus UMD and the feat that gives it to you as a class skill. And of course a scroll, staff, yada yada yada.

Volkov
2010-03-04, 06:35 PM
So all this is taken into consideration statically and in theory ? No imput from the DM? Because if I was a PC capable of "doing absolutely everything" and had "world changing powers at high levels" you can bet your bottom dollar the NPCs would too. Meaning they would cancel each other out.


I guess basically I don't like classifying classes. So I'll just accept that you guys see the game differently than me.

Thank you for the prompt response.
The DM is far too variable a well.... variable to be considered. Because with some DMs some classes may not be able to do anything period despite their listing on the tier system.

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-04, 06:40 PM
The DM is far too variable an well variable to be considered. Because with some DMs some classes may not be able to do anything period despite their listing on the tier system. Ah and now we come to where I am comfortable playing the game (on either side of the screen). We have an unwritten rule in our gaming group...anything you can do the NPCs and some monsters can do as well.

satorian
2010-03-04, 07:28 PM
That can be your gaming philosophy all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that some classes are simply stronger, as written, than other classes. The tier system is loose and imperfect, but a fine generalization. I mean, if I were to homebrew a class that at level 1 could short 30d10 force bolts out of its eyes and had DR10/-, and a miracle SLA and that each of these abilities got more powerful as he levelled up, wouldn't have to admit that the class was simply stronger, as written, than any other? And if I wrote a class that got 1hp/level, no skill points, no spellcasting or other magic, bad BAB and saves, it was a weak class? Now that's extreme, sure, but the real classes as written are not balanced with each other. Some are stronger, some weaker. The tier system represents that. Having a DM that tries to neutralize every class strength, and preferring that play style, does nothing whatsoever to change this fact.

taltamir
2010-03-04, 07:28 PM
Has it been mentioned that IF wizards use their free feats to make items that will in essence put them behind Sorcerers as far as XP is concerned. That includes scrolls of course. Enough item creation and the wiz gets a new spell level at the same time as a sorc.

the wizard can use the free feats to take metamagic.

and if they craft, the XP cost is worth it.
And the sorcerer can craft too, in which case they are both equally behind on XP due to crafting, the wizard just has an extra feat (since the sorc had to use his general feat to choose a crafting feat)


Also let's not forget that a wizards spells are not guaranteed to be learned like they are for sorc. I remember failing two consecutive levels trying to learn fly. It happens. 1 in 20 remember.
thats a house rule, you do not autofail skill checks on a 1 (spellcraft is a skillcheck, therefore you do not autofail it on a 1)

magic9mushroom
2010-03-04, 07:29 PM
Hi there. I'm new here. I like this place.

Has it been mentioned that IF wizards use their free feats to make items that will in essence put them behind Sorcerers as far as XP is concerned. That includes scrolls of course. Enough item creation and the wiz gets a new spell level at the same time as a sorc.

Or the wiz can take metamagic feats. Also, as already said, XP is a river.


Also, there is a feat (sorry can't remember the name or source book) that allows a skill to be treated as a class skill rather than cross-class. Use magic device as a class skill for the sorc would solve many thoughts on weakness.

It'd help the Wiz almost as much.


Lets not forget that it costs money as per the RAW to play a wizard. Scribing scrolls, making items(assuming they do), etc. Level per level the sorc would have more cash available to spend on filling his perceived weaknesses. And since by default he has every spell school available none are restricted to him, meaning he isn't a specialist.

Wizards don't have to scribe scrolls, and don't have to make items any more than a sorc. In fact, it's often considered worthwhile to swap your Scribe Scroll feat for something else.


Often times if a party doesn't know what they will be facing a wizard uses the same spells each time, sounds like a sorc to me. But with judicious use of divination spells insight may be gained which again makes the wizard more effective.

Reasonably accurate.


Also let's not forget that a wizards spells are not guaranteed to be learned like they are for sorc. I remember failing two consecutive levels trying to learn fly. It happens. 1 in 20 remember.

Sorry, did you think skill checks autofail on a 1? They don't.


By and large classes are only tools. It's more important who the user is (player).

It does matter to a large extent in terms of what happens, but not so much for capabilities.


Ah and now we come to where I am comfortable playing the game (on either side of the screen). We have an unwritten rule in our gaming group...anything you can do the NPCs and some monsters can do as well.

Which doesn't change the fact that a PC Wizard can effortlessly stomp an NPC Fighter and an NPC Wizard can stomp a PC fighter.

taltamir
2010-03-04, 07:42 PM
Lets not forget that it costs money as per the RAW to play a wizard. Scribing scrolls, making items(assuming they do), etc. Level per level the sorc would have more cash available to spend on filling his perceived weaknesses. And since by default he has every spell school available none are restricted to him, meaning he isn't a specialist.

1. Making items SAVES you money. I just got a wizard to have 200k worth of items with 100k budget using crafting. (my buddy did the same with his cleric)
2. Sorcerers can (and SHOULD) craft as well.
3. Wizards do not need to scribe a single spell, ever. They CAN scribe spells if they have extra money lying around, or if the power gained from learning those spells justifies it, but they don't HAVE to. They know more spells then the sorcerer without scribing a single spell, ever.

The ability to convert 150gp per spell level into another spell known is a bonus, not a penalty. Because it is PURELY OPTIONAL!

4. Blessed book means wizards actually MAKE money. Every time you level up you get to scribe for FREE 2 spells of your highest level (or 4 if collegiate, or 5 if collegiate and elven generalist). Those spells can then be copied into your blessed book for FREE, the original can then be sold for 50gp per page (spell level). And of course, when you get your first blessed book, you copy all your spells to it and sell your old books, paying for the blessed book...
then you can make duplicates of your blessed book, for free, and sell those for a profit. (something the sorcerer can't do)

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-04, 07:48 PM
That can be your gaming philosophy all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that some classes are simply stronger, as written, than other classes.

I agree.

But the very fact there are more than just one class means that there are strengths and weaknesses in each class. Right? Tier 1 classes may be the best sometimes and worst at others. Right? That's the very nature of RPGs.

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-04, 07:56 PM
Which doesn't change the fact that a PC Wizard can effortlessly stomp an NPC Fighter and an NPC Wizard can stomp a PC fighter.

Ahhh the old "wizard can beat ______ ". I never agreed with that statement. The DM can challenge any class, race, feat, magic item, etc. So I don't really understand where you are going with that. I'm sure you can build a fighter that can beat wizards can't you?

taltamir
2010-03-04, 08:00 PM
I agree.

But the very fact there are more than just one class means that there are strengths and weaknesses in each class. Right?

no, it just means that WOTC thought they could sell more books if they made more classes.

Volkov
2010-03-04, 08:00 PM
Ahhh the old "wizard can beat ______ ". I never agreed with that statement. The DM can challenge any class, race, feat, magic item, etc. So I don't really understand where you are going with that. I'm sure you can build a fighter that can beat wizards can't you?

Only a piss poor wizard that was more or less purposely built to suck and/or one that had absolutely no idea as to what it's doing or is losing on purpose.

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-04, 08:01 PM
no, it just means that WOTC thought they could sell more books if they made more classes.
LOL. Probably.

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-04, 08:03 PM
Only a piss poor wizard that was more or less purposely built to suck and/or one that had absolutely no idea as to what it's doing or is losing on purpose.

Wow I wish you were in my game group/campaign/party. I could prove you wrong.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-03-04, 08:03 PM
Of course, if your entire party sits and watchs you make items instead of go out and adventure(gain XP). My party wouldn't do it. Some campaigns have more downtime than others.


A 1 is always failure. Well RAW it is.

Not on skill checks.


Totally agree. Yet there will be times when you just NEED one more fireball and simply don't have one because you played a wizard. That happens more times then people generally admit
If you take the Focused Specialist variant, your spells per day match the sorcerer.


Wow I wish you were in my game group/campaign/party. I could prove you wrong.

It sounds like hyperbole for ironic value, rather than a serious assertion.

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-04, 08:06 PM
It sounds like hyperbole for ironic value, rather than a serious assertion.
So you are saying you can't build a fighter that can kill wizards? Or a DM for that matter LOL.

Volkov
2010-03-04, 08:12 PM
Wow I wish you were in my game group/campaign/party. I could prove you wrong.
A level 20 Fighter or any other melee class has no chance against any level 20 wizard I would ever seriously make.

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-04, 08:15 PM
A level 20 Fighter or any other melee class has no chance against any level 20 wizard I would ever seriously make.
Look, we apparently disagree. Before this gets ugly I will simply say I can't sway your way of thinking and you can't sway mine.

I wish you the best in all your games.

Volkov
2010-03-04, 08:16 PM
Look, we apparently disagree. Before this gets ugly I will simply say I can't sway your way of thinking and you can't sway mine.

I wish you the best in all your games.

I cast imprisonment, is your saving throw a twenty? No? Then please enjoy a permanent stay beneath Oerth's crust. Or I can just gate in a twenty hit dice pit fiend and have him mop the floor with you.

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-04, 08:19 PM
I cast imprisonment, is your saving throw a twenty? No? Then please enjoy a permanent stay beneath Oerth's crust.

Beat my SR.

Volkov
2010-03-04, 08:21 PM
Beat my SR.

Easy, I have +20 to the SR penetration check at a bare minimum, and if I just spend one or two feats, I could get an even higher check. And the SR that all spells and armor enchantments in the SRD can grant you? They're total rubbish at the levels you can use them.

taltamir
2010-03-04, 08:21 PM
Beat my SR.

quickened "assay resistance" for a +8 against SR. items of +CL give a few more levels. there is always the old faithful of spell penetration...
where did a fighter get SR anyways? what is your SR? items that grant SR grant CRAP SR... you want good SR you need to play a class or race that gives decent SR (it has to scale by your HD)...

Volkov
2010-03-04, 08:22 PM
quickened "assay resistance" for a +8 against SR. items of +CL give a few more levels. there is always the old faithful of spell penetration...
where did a fighter get SR anyways? what is your SR?

Armor enchantment or permanancy'd Spell resistance or Alignment Shield (Unholy aura, cloak of chaos, so on) both of which give complete trash values for SR at the levels that they can be used. (Ooooh, 21 SR at level 15, how useful....it's not like every single CR appropriate monster or NPC who can cast spells couldn't penetrate that in their sleep.)

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-04, 08:23 PM
quickened "assay resistance" for a +8 against SR. items of +CL give a few more levels. there is always the old faithful of spell penetration...
where did a fighter get SR anyways? what is your SR? items that grant SR grant CRAP SR... you want good SR you need to play a class or race that gives decent SR (it has to scale by your HD)...
What did you roll?

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-04, 08:25 PM
Armor enchantment or permanancy'd Spell resistance or Alignment Shield (Unholy aura, cloak of chaos, so on) both of which give complete trash values for SR at the levels that they can be used.

What did YOU roll?

Volkov
2010-03-04, 08:25 PM
What did you roll?

6+20+2(Spell penetration)+2(Greater spell penetration), 30. Enough to instantly penetrate anything anything that the SRD can offer to players.

Kylarra
2010-03-04, 08:26 PM
If you're going to go into a PvP tangent, stat up your characters and take it to the RP forums where we can see all the rolls. :smalltongue:

Schrodinger's Wizard vs Schrodinger's fighter will just be pages of semantic "lol I play my trap card!".

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-04, 08:27 PM
6+20+2(Spell penetration)+2(Greater spell penetration), 30. Enough to instantly penetrate anything anything that the SRD can offer to players.

30, that's it. That can't even get thru a lowly drow SR.

Volkov
2010-03-04, 08:30 PM
30, that's it. That can't even get thru a lowly drow SR.

I use wish for a reroll.
I get a 19. Now it's a 43. My Int is 36, and the spell is level 9, make a will saving throw against 32.

Kylarra
2010-03-04, 08:30 PM
30, that's it. That can't even get thru a lowly drow SR.Actually, sans LA buyoff, your ECL 20 drow character has 18 class levels for an SR of 29.

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-04, 08:32 PM
If you're going to go into a PvP tangent, stat up your characters and take it to the RP forums where we can see all the rolls. :smalltongue:

Schrodinger's Wizard vs Schrodinger's fighter will just be pages of semantic "lol I play my trap card!".
Nah, I don't care that much. Just trying to point out that in D&D there are at hundreds of feats, hundreds of spells, thousands of pieces of gear and countless monsters that don't carry their stats on a sign around their necks. D&D is a game of CHANCE and DICE. I know everyone on this board typing can come up with a trump card for everything else. Or at least you should be able too, right?

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-04, 08:34 PM
Actually, sans LA buyoff, your ECL 20 drow character has 18 class levels for an SR of 29.

You forgot my feats. Besides I bought back my LA.

taltamir
2010-03-04, 08:37 PM
Actually, sans LA buyoff, your ECL 20 drow character has 18 class levels for an SR of 29.

correct...

so a level 20 wizard needs to beat DC29 SR with:
1d20 (roll) + 20 (class level) + 8 (assay resistance) + 4 (greater spell penetration) + 5 (clear spindle + bead of karma)

thats 1d20+37. automatically beats your SR every time.
besides, why use a spell that ALLOWS SR? win with a spell that allows no save and no SR.

even with the drow level buyoff and assuming you don't have CL enhancing items, you got SR31... roll a nat 1+20 CL + 8 assay +4 spell penetration and you got 33, auto win.

Kylarra
2010-03-04, 08:38 PM
Nah, I don't care that much. Just trying to point out that in D&D there are at hundreds of feats, hundreds of spells, thousands of pieces of gear and countless monsters that don't carry their stats on a sign around their necks. D&D is a game of CHANCE and DICE. I know everyone on this board typing can come up with a trump card for everything else. Or at least you should be able too, right?Yes, assuming schrodinger's character you can keep going "lol you triggered my trap card". That's why I said stat them up and put your money where your mouth is.

@taltamir - assay resistance is +10

Volkov
2010-03-04, 08:39 PM
correct...

so a level 20 wizard needs to beat DC29 SR with:
1d20 (roll) + 20 (class level) + 8 (assay resistance) + 4 (greater spell penetration) + 5 (clear spindle + bead of karma)

thats 1d20+37. automatically beats your SR every time.
besides, why use a spell that ALLOWS SR? win with a spell that allows no save and no SR.

Power word kill is a fun spell. Now if only I could reduce that pesky hit point count low enough for it to work, oh that's right, Meteor swarm.

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-04, 08:42 PM
Yes, assuming schrodinger's character you can keep going "lol you triggered my trap card". That's why I said stat them up and put your money where your mouth is.

@taltamir - assay resistance is +10So Kylarra, can you build a fighter that can kill a wizard?

Superglucose
2010-03-04, 08:43 PM
Power word kill is a fun spell. Now if only I could reduce that pesky hit point count low enough for it to work, oh that's right, Meteor swarm.
Thank god I have mind blank up!

taltamir
2010-03-04, 08:44 PM
Yes, assuming schrodinger's character you can keep going "lol you triggered my trap card". That's why I said stat them up and put your money where your mouth is.

@taltamir - assay resistance is +10

thanks for the correction... that means you don't even need the greater spell penetration.

Kylarra
2010-03-04, 08:44 PM
So Kylarra, can you build a fighter that can kill a wizard?Negatory. I cannot construct a fighter 20 that will satisfactorily kill schrodinger's wizard or the iconic paranoid wizard that frequents these forums. I could hypothetically build an ubercharger that if he hit would probably splatter the wizard, but he'd pretty much never get to do his schtick.

Also fighters aren't my strong point.

Volkov
2010-03-04, 08:45 PM
Thank god I have mind blank up!

It doesn't matter, I fly above your level and pummel you with meteor swarms until you are dead. Directing each one against you, and because you are a fighter, your touch AC sucks. After lobbing meteor swarm twice or thrice, you are dead.

Ranger Mattos
2010-03-04, 08:46 PM
I would say wizard, because they can know virtually infinite spells and are thus awesome item creators, plus they are much better if you know what you are going up against. But I like sorcerers better anyways. Just my opinion.

Koury
2010-03-04, 08:48 PM
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac357/KouryCasey/dino2.jpg

Zexion
2010-03-04, 08:56 PM
Wizards are much stronger and more versatile. MUCH stronger. They're pretty much the strongest class in the game.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-04, 09:21 PM
Thank god I have mind blank up!

So the fighter manages to survive only because he has a friendly spellcaster to assist? Right.

Look, how about this. Have whoever is claiming that fighters will beat wizards build three fighters, at say 10th, 15th and 20th levels. Core only with no PrCs. I'll build three wizards at the same levels. Same rules: Core only, no PrCs. The characters will start off 100 feet away in a flat plane and then go all out. The wizards will win in all three cases.

If this doesn't sit with you we can do core only but with PrCs (base classes only wizard and fighter). The result will be the same.

If we go out of core it is more likely that the fighter will happen to hit in at least one of the three cases something that actually is effective (such as Martial Study together with some lucky feat combinations). The wizard will likely still win, but it is less likely. I'd be willing to bet that if we open it up to everything the wizard will still win in at least 2 of the 3 cases.

If you think otherwise, let's test this out.

taltamir
2010-03-04, 09:27 PM
So the fighter manages to survive only because he has a friendly spellcaster to assist? Right.

actually, the fighter didn't survive... mindblack wouldn't stop the attack in question :P

JoshuaZ
2010-03-04, 10:03 PM
actually, the fighter didn't survive... mindblack wouldn't stop the attack in question :P

Hmm? Am I reading the thread wrong? It seemed that the mind blank comment was in response to the use of Power Word Kill which has the [Mind-Affecting] descriptor and thus would be stopped by a Mind Blank.

Math_Mage
2010-03-05, 12:03 AM
Hmm? Am I reading the thread wrong? It seemed that the mind blank comment was in response to the use of Power Word Kill which has the [Mind-Affecting] descriptor and thus would be stopped by a Mind Blank.

IIRC, PW Kill was brought up tangentially. The first spell mentioned was Imprisonment.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-05, 12:07 AM
IIRC, PW Kill was brought up tangentially. The first spell mentioned was Imprisonment.

OIC. Yes, that would not be helped at all. However, then the spell at least allows the will save.

faceroll
2010-03-05, 12:14 AM
That'll only work if you also remove their ability to get free spells when they level up. Collegate Wizard would give them plenty of choice spells anyway, even if they can't buy scrolls.

JaronK

Collegiate.
It's collegiate.

That said, collegiate wizard gives them about 25% more spells known than a sorcerer. A wizard getting "all the spells it needs" is about as true as a sorcerer getting "all the spells it needs." Which is to say, with good selection, you're t2.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-05, 01:17 AM
I agree.

But the very fact there are more than just one class means that there are strengths and weaknesses in each class. Right? Tier 1 classes may be the best sometimes and worst at others. Right? That's the very nature of RPGs.

They have strengths and weaknesses compared to each other, this is true. Compared to lower tier classes they have a lot more strengths and a lot less weaknesses. Compared to a Fighter... a level 20 fighter has no chance.


Ahhh the old "wizard can beat ______ ". I never agreed with that statement. The DM can challenge any class, race, feat, magic item, etc. So I don't really understand where you are going with that. I'm sure you can build a fighter that can beat wizards can't you?

So you are saying you can't build a fighter that can kill wizards? Or a DM for that matter LOL.

Ok, here is, off the top of my head, how I would beat a Fighter with a Wizard at level 20.

1. Foresight. I'm not flat-footed.
2. Celerity. Skip this step if I win initiative.
3. Forcecage. He's stuck.
4. Dispel Magic, to negate any items that give immunity to Negative Energy.
5. Enervation. Repeat until dead.

The only part of this that requires any chance is the Dispel check, and there are various ways to cheese that check. Also, he's stuck at this point, so I can retry. I could also use Implosion, which doesn't get negated by Death Ward, but allows a save.

And this is without Contingency or Time Stop shenanigans.

The only way a Wizard can possibly be helpless against a Fighter is if the Wizard is in an Antimagic Field, and even then there are various ways to get out of that (like Invoke Magic or tinfoil hats).

EDIT: Alternatively, I use Forcecage followed by Maw of Chaos. That sucker's dead unless he has Regeneration or the Chaotic subtype.

And I didn't read any of the previous schrodinger's discussion to come up with that.

taltamir
2010-03-05, 03:57 AM
Collegiate.
It's collegiate.

That said, collegiate wizard gives them about 25% more spells known than a sorcerer. A wizard getting "all the spells it needs" is about as true as a sorcerer getting "all the spells it needs." Which is to say, with good selection, you're t2.

collegiate gives 8 spells known at level X+1 (where X is the level at which the wizard gains access to that spell level, and X+1 is the level at which the sorc does). At level X+1 the sorc gains access to that spell level (for spell level 2) with 1 spell known. 8 vs 1 is 8x the amount.
{table]level|Collegiate Wizard spells known|sorc spells known|wizard to sorc ratio
X|4|0|infinity
X+1|8|1|8x
X+2|8|2|4x
X+4|8|3|2.67x
X+6|8|4|2x
X+8|8|5|1.6x
[/table]

note, 25% would be "1.25x" ratio of spells known. And it takes the sorcerer 8 freaking levels to even start to catch up.
Compare it against a non collegiate wizard (for spell level 2 spells)
{table]level|Wizard spells known|sorc spells known|wizard to sorc ratio
X|2|0|infinity
X+1|4|1|4x
X+2|4|2|2x
X+4|4|3|2.37x
X+6|4|4|1x
X+8|4|5|0.8x
[/table]

Here at least the sorcerer seems competitive, except, the sorcerer knows less spells for every spell level for 5 whole levels. And during which higher spell levels are also in the same situation... eventually at X+6 he matches spells known (for that spell level). but is still behind on highest level spells known.
At highest levels he never catches up...

Oh wait... this is even WORSE! only spell level 1 and 2 reaches 5 spells known. Spell levels 3 through 5 cap at 4 spells known, and spell levels 6 through 9 cap at 3 spells known.

ChakraChanter
2010-03-05, 06:03 AM
Well the obvious answer is the Wizard; the Sorcerer just simply can't do all that the Wizard can but if you want my opinion on what is more fun to play, I would say the Sorcerer.

I love playing the Sorcerer. It has great RPing potential because it's main stat is Charisma which can be used to Bluff, Intimidate, Gather Information, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, and Disguise. It has good flavor too, such as the myth of dragon-descended Sorcerers, and the fact that Sorcerers are highly individual (though not necessarily reserved) because they had to teach themselves how to use their magic (though, there is a rare instance that one could have found a master to take you in as an apprentice).

As for combat, you 'know' all your spells, so you don't have to prepare them (the thought of preparing spells seems to require much foresight). Unfortunately, you learn new level spells one level later than the wizard, but there are spells that are only Sorcerer specific (Races of the Dragon IIRC). Casting spells enhanced through metamagic does indeed require a full-round action, but that burden can benifit you through the use of Arcane Spellsurge (though you will have to wait a bit).

Plus, I see that the Wizard has great potential for game-breaking, and while the Sorcerer does too, not as much so.:smallamused:

taltamir
2010-03-05, 06:14 AM
the sorcerer isn't less game breaking than the wizard...
the difference is that the wizard has dozens of ways he can break the game.
the sorcerer has to chose 1 or 2 out of those dozen.


I love playing the Sorcerer. It has great RPing potential because it's main stat is Charisma which can be used to Bluff, Intimidate, Gather Information, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, and Disguise.
bluff is the only one you have as a class skill.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-05, 06:19 AM
the sorcerer isn't less game breaking than the wizard...
the difference is that the wizard has dozens of ways he can break the game.
the sorcerer has to chose 1 or 2 out of those dozen.

Except that the DM can work around those 1 or 2 ways, allowing the Sorc to shine when the DM lets him but not be teh ubar awesome the rest of the time. The Wizard can't be worked around so easily.

Like I said, the Sorcerer drops a 1,000,001 ton weight on some problems, but nothing on others, so you can avoid your game being crushed under the weight by not giving him the problems he can crush.

The Wizard drops a 1,000,000 ton weight on everything.

taltamir
2010-03-05, 06:32 AM
if the DM fixes those problems, then the sorcerer chooses a different method.
the more problems the DM fixes, the less ways the wizard has to break the game. fix 28/30 game breakers and you end up with the wizards and sorcerers both having exactly 2 ways to break the game.

also, the 1,000,001 ton thing insinuates that a sorcerer is better at his one trick than a wizard is. That is simply not true. the wizard gets said 1 megaton weight a level earlier, with focused specialist he can cast it more often a day, and he has more metamagic and better application of metamagic to throw at it to make it even heavier.

ChakraChanter
2010-03-05, 06:52 AM
the sorcerer isn't less game breaking than the wizard...
the difference is that the wizard has dozens of ways he can break the game.
the sorcerer has to chose 1 or 2 out of those dozen.


bluff is the only one you have as a class skill.

It almost seems as if you purposefully ignored my acknowledgement that the Sorcerer can gamebreak, just not as well as the Wizard. I never stated that the skills I listed were class skills, just that you could use them because those are RPing skills and the Sorcerer is a plthora of Charisma.

I don't know what your issue is, but your arguing is unneeded.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-05, 06:53 AM
if the DM fixes those problems, then the sorcerer chooses a different method.

Except that he can't, because he doesn't have a way of easily swapping out his spells known every day. I wonder who does?


the more problems the DM fixes, the less ways the wizard has to break the game. fix 28/30 game breakers and you end up with the wizards and sorcerers both having exactly 2 ways to break the game.

also, the 1,000,001 ton thing insinuates that a sorcerer is better at his one trick than a wizard is. That is simply not true. the wizard gets said 1 megaton weight a level earlier, with focused specialist he can cast it more often a day, and he has more metamagic and better application of metamagic to throw at it to make it even heavier.

(White Dragonspawn+LA buyoff) + Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. - Sorcerer gets Xth level spells a level earlier with both and at the same level with one. Or if you want to break out the really good stuff, go Hatchling Phaerimm + LA buyoff and get 9th level spells at ECL 10.

Arcane Spellsurge - Sorcerer gets free quicken, better than Wizards. Combine with Arcane Fusion/Greater Arcane Fusion in order to win at action economy. And then he's got the nice ability to apply metamagic on the spot, not particularly useful for some but incredibly so for Silent or Still.

The Wiz does get Scribe Scroll and 1 metamagic/item creation feat before he PrCs. This is true.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-05, 07:06 AM
The Wiz does get Scribe Scroll and 1 metamagic/item creation feat before he PrCs. This is true.

Actually, the wizard can PrC out as early as level 3, without any early entry cheese. Master Specialist is actually a solid PrC, as well, offering a lot of very good benefits. In that case, wizard wouldn't get the meta/item feat... Though I wouldn't classify that as a weakness.

Further, for your "sorceror gets Xth level spells earlier", that isn't true. X must be greater than a certain number.

In this instance, when do both get level 2 spells? What about level 3? LA buyoff can't be done right away.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-05, 07:09 AM
Actually, the wizard can PrC out as early as level 3, without any early entry cheese. Master Specialist is actually a solid PrC, as well, offering a lot of very good benefits. In that case, wizard wouldn't get the meta/item feat... Though I wouldn't classify that as a weakness.

No, it isn't, since in three levels Master Specialist gives two feats of its own.

But you can certainly see the point that after level 5 both are neck-deep in PrCs and therefore the bonus feats might as well not exist.

EDIT: Damn Celerity Ninja!

Phaerimm Sorcerer gets 1st level spells at ECL 3, 2nd level at ECL 4, 3rd level at ECL 5, 4th level at ECL 6, and from then on pulls ahead. Since it catches the Wizard at precisely the time the Wizard blooms...

Kobold White Dragonspawn gets 1st level spells at ECL 2, 2nd level spells at ECL 3/4 (since it's at that level that you buy off your LA), 3rd level spells at level 5, 4th level spells at level 6 (since you take Greater Draconic Rite of Passage then) and stays one level ahead from there. Again, pulls even by 3rd level spells.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-05, 07:12 AM
No, it isn't, since in three levels Master Specialist gives two feats of its own.

But you can certainly see the point that after level 5 both are neck-deep in PrCs and therefore the bonus feats might as well not exist.

Yes, but before level 5, only one has access to fullcast PrC's without early entry cheese.

Edge: Wizard.

Not a massive game breaking edge, but yeah.

Also, without early entry, wizards will qualify for most PrC's at level 5, while most sorcerors have to wait until level 6.

Wizards have easier access to many high level PrC's, such as Archmage, as well.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-05, 07:19 AM
Yes, but before level 5, only one has access to fullcast PrC's without early entry cheese.

Edge: Wizard.

Not a massive game breaking edge, but yeah.

I'd agree.


Also, without early entry, wizards will qualify for most PrC's at level 5, while most sorcerors have to wait until level 6.

Eh, not if you use White Dragonspawn (if you're referring to "can cast 3rd level spells).


Wizards have easier access to many high level PrC's, such as Archmage, as well.

This is true, and they also get far more from some PrCs, like Rainbow Servant or Tainted Scholar.

Volkov
2010-03-05, 07:21 AM
How high a tier would the beholder mage class be if PC's could take it and the Eyestalk spell level thing was ignored?

taltamir
2010-03-05, 07:29 AM
It almost seems as if you purposefully ignored my acknowledgement that the Sorcerer can gamebreak, just not as well as the Wizard.

actually I didn't ignore that statement, I was saying that your statement is wrong.
The sorcerer can game break EQUALLY WELL as the wizard. the wizard gets more ways how he game breaks, but each individual gamebreak method is executed equally by a wizard and a sorcerer.
Example, shapechange gamebreaking is done equally well by a wizard and a sorcerer. you claimed that the wizard is better at game breaking, aka, the wizard shapechange is superior to the sorcerer shapechange. I have also seen the opposite claim, that the sorcerer shapechange is superior to the wizards shapechange..

mmm, now that I think about it, I myself argued that the wizard shapechange is better because the wizard has more metamagic feats, better metamagic application, and earlier access to it (by 1 level), and with focuses specialist, more castings per day for most of his career (levels)


Except that he can't, because he doesn't have a way of easily swapping out his spells known every day. I wonder who does?
I am retroactively nerfing all your spells isn't fixing the problems, the DM Should fix those ahead of times. And sorcerers can retrain on levelup.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-05, 07:34 AM
How high a tier would the beholder mage class be if PC's could take it and the Eyestalk spell level thing was ignored?

What do you mean by Eyestalk spell level thing? You mean if they were restricted to normal casting, or if they got to cast 10 9ths a round?

In either case, they're an Up Two or More Tier PrC, elevating absolutely anything to Tier 0.

Volkov
2010-03-05, 07:36 AM
What do you mean by Eyestalk spell level thing? You mean if they were restricted to normal casting, or if they got to cast 10 9ths a round?

In either case, they're an Up Two or More Tier PrC, elevating absolutely anything to Tier 0.

The restriction they have that prevents them from casting spells with a higher level than they have eyes. Though ironically, the PRC would suit Beholder Overseers (those big blobs of tentacles with a tower of eyes in the lords of madness) more than it would a Hive mother as the overseer has more eyes.

taltamir
2010-03-05, 07:38 AM
(White Dragonspawn+LA buyoff) + Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. - Sorcerer gets Xth level spells a level earlier with both and at the same level with one. Or if you want to break out the really good stuff, go Hatchling Phaerimm + LA buyoff and get 9th level spells at ECL 10.

Arcane Spellsurge - Sorcerer gets free quicken, better than Wizards. Combine with Arcane Fusion/Greater Arcane Fusion in order to win at action economy. And then he's got the nice ability to apply metamagic on the spot, not particularly useful for some but incredibly so for Silent or Still.

can you elaborate on those please?
where are they from and how do they work exactly (as in, how many times per day, etc)

magic9mushroom
2010-03-05, 07:38 AM
The restriction they have that prevents them from casting spells with a higher level than they have eyes. Though ironically, the PRC would suit Beholder Overseers (those big blobs of tentacles with a tower of eyes in the lords of madness) more than it would a Hive mother as the overseer has more eyes.

Eyestalk grafts (Fiend Folio) can fix that (and it only actually matters if you're going Killer Non-Gnome).


can you elaborate on those please?
where are they from and how do they work exactly (as in, how many times per day, etc)

Ok. White Dragonspawn is from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, it's a +1 LA template that gives a free extra level of Sorc casting (as well as far more goodies than an LA +1 template should give). Use the "Reducting Level Adjustments" option in Unearthed Arcana to erase the Level Adjustment, leaving you with one more level of Sorcerer casting than your ECL.

Greater Draconic Rite of Passage is from the Races of the Dragon web enhancement. It's for kobolds only, and gives them a free level of Sorc casting in exchange for 3 HP and 1000 gp and a prerequisite feat.

Phaerimm are from Lost Empires of Faerun. They get inherent Sorc casting equal to character level, and Sorc levels stack with this (which means you can double-dip). Hatchling Phaerimm have only 1 RHD, which goes away when you take class levels, and +2 LA, which you can buy off (see above). Hence by taking 9 levels in Sorcerer and buying off your LA, you have effective Sorcerer level = character level + Sorc levels = 18, and you can cast 9th level spells, while being still ECL 9. Also, they cast their sorcerer spells as though they were SLAs, so no counterspelling, no Spellcraft, no ASF, no material components, no XP costs (!). Fun times.

Arcane Spellsurge is a Sor/Wiz spell from Dragon Magic, it reduces spell casting times, but the way it does it allows Sorcerers to use it as a free quicken.

Volkov
2010-03-05, 07:42 AM
A Gibbering Orb with twenty four levels in beholder mage, Tis the supreme lord of monster cheese. Killer penguin excluded.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-05, 07:47 AM
A Gibbering Orb with twenty four levels in beholder mage, Tis the supreme lord of monster cheese. Killer penguin excluded.

'Tis also epic.

Cyclocone
2010-03-05, 07:59 AM
Except that he can't, because he doesn't have a way of easily swapping out his spells known every day. I wonder who does?

Well, with standard transparency, Limited Wish ==> Psychic Reformation takes care of that.


can you elaborate on those please?
where are they from and how do they work exactly (as in, how many times per day, etc)

Lemmesee.

White Dragonspawn is a Dragon Lance template. It grants free Sorc casting.
Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) is a Kobold ritual from WotCs HP. It gives (more) Sorc casting.
Hatchling Phaerimm is a FR-specific critter (they're in LEoF IIRC). It has odly-worded Racial Sorc casting based on it's HD -even if they're Sorc levels.
Arcane Spellsurge is a Sorc buff-spell from DraMag. It shortens casting-time on your spells full-round --> standard; standard --> swift etc.
Arcane Fusion and Greater Arcane Fusion are Sorc-only spells from CMag. They let you cast two spells simultaneously.

taltamir
2010-03-05, 07:59 AM
thanks for clarifying.


Ok. White Dragonspawn is from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, it's a +1 LA template that gives a free extra level of Sorc casting (as well as far more goodies than an LA +1 template should give). Use the "Reducting Level Adjustments" option in Unearthed Arcana to erase the Level Adjustment, leaving you with one more level of Sorcerer casting than your ECL.
race specific, but a nice boost.
according to: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingleveladjustments.htm
you can reduce your LA by level 3, at which point you are casting as a 4th level sorc, so you are never behind on spell levels. very nice.


Greater Draconic Rite of Passage is from the Races of the Dragon web enhancement. It's for kobolds only, and gives them a free level of Sorc casting in exchange for 3 HP and 1000 gp and a prerequisite feat.
also very nice, even more restrictive about your race though. but combining the above two can make for some cool sorcs.


Phaerimm are from Lost Empires of Faerun. They get inherent Sorc casting equal to character level, and Sorc levels stack with this (which means you can double-dip). Hatchling Phaerimm have only 1 RHD, which goes away when you take class levels, and +2 LA, which you can buy off (see above). Hence by taking 9 levels in Sorcerer and buying off your LA, you have effective Sorcerer level = character level + Sorc levels = 18, and you can cast 9th level spells, while being still ECL 9. Also, they cast their sorcerer spells as though they were SLAs, so no counterspelling, no Spellcraft, no ASF, no material components, no XP costs (!). Fun times.
>.< that is just so cheesy.
but I would grant you that a phaerimm sorcerer is definitely superior to any wizard. CL18 at ECL9 is awesome... epic casting by ECL11.


Arcane Spellsurge is a Sor/Wiz spell from Dragon Magic, it reduces spell casting times, but the way it does it allows Sorcerers to use it as a free quicken.

does it only reduce one spell? whats its casting time? whats its duration?

Volkov
2010-03-05, 08:01 AM
thanks for clarifying.


race specific, but a nice boost.
according to: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingleveladjustments.htm
you can reduce your LA by level 3, at which point you are casting as a 4th level sorc, so you are never behind on spell levels. very nice.


also very nice, even more restrictive about your race though. but combining the above two can make for some cool sorcs.


>.< that is just so cheesy.
but I would grant you that a phaerimm sorcerer is definitely superior to any wizard. CL18 at ECL9 is awesome... epic casting by ECL11.



does it only reduce one spell? whats its casting time? whats its duration?

No, true Cheese is giving someone ten levels in beholder mage without raising their ECL.

taltamir
2010-03-05, 08:02 AM
No, true Cheese is giving someone ten levels in beholder mage without raising their ECL.

ok now that I gotta hear... how do you do that?

Volkov
2010-03-05, 08:03 AM
ok now that I gotta hear... how do you do that?
Fudge their sheets. Though I don't think cheese and fudge go together very well.

taltamir
2010-03-05, 08:05 AM
Fudge their sheets. Though I don't think cheese and fudge go together very well.

ugh, yea definitely a big no no...
worse thing I ate was ketchup with Cottage cheese which made me instantly vomit (I am not exaggerating, I did... and I almost never vomit)

magic9mushroom
2010-03-05, 08:09 AM
thanks for clarifying.

race specific, but a nice boost.
according to: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingleveladjustments.htm
you can reduce your LA by level 3, at which point you are casting as a 4th level sorc, so you are never behind on spell levels. very nice.

Not quite. You get to reduce your LA once you get three class levels, ie at ECL 4 (and buying it off reduces that to 3). So the Wiz will get 2nd level spells before you.


also very nice, even more restrictive about your race though. but combining the above two can make for some cool sorcs.

Oh yes.


>.< that is just so cheesy.
but I would grant you that a phaerimm sorcerer is definitely superior to any wizard. CL18 at ECL9 is awesome... epic casting by ECL11.

No epic casting because you're not epic, unfortunately. But yes, Phaerimms are ungodly powerful - though if you're starting above ECL 9, you should get rid of some of those Sorc levels and replace them with something else, because you've got more racial levels. A level 20 build should really not include sorcerer levels at all, instead you should pick something complementary, like Erudite or Archivist or a Martial Adept class (mmm full sorcerer casting with full BAB and a d12 HD, almost a Lightning Warrior).


does it only reduce one spell? whats its casting time? whats its duration?

Casting time 1 standard action (except that for casters with the dragonblood subtype it only takes a swift action). Lasts 1 round/level, reduces the casting time of all spells you cast in that time. So anything from 2-10 round casting time is reduced by 1 round, 1 full round is reduced to a standard action, 1 standard action is reduced to a swift action. You can't ignore it, so since you can't use a standard action as a swift action, Wizards don't get an extra spell/round unless they're using Summon Monster or something. Sorcerers, though, can cast a metamagiced spell (1 full round -> 1 standard action) and a non-metamagiced spell (1 standard action -> 1 swift action). It's a level 7 spell though, so it comes in quite late, but is a huge boost for Sorcerers.

taltamir
2010-03-05, 08:19 AM
No epic casting because you're not epic, unfortunately. But yes, Phaerimms are ungodly powerful - though if you're starting above ECL 9, you should get rid of some of those Sorc levels and replace them with something else, because you've got more racial levels. A level 20 build should really not include sorcerer levels at all, instead you should pick something complementary, like Erudite or Archivist.
I would go with ur priest. 9th level spells in 9 levels.
although, if you continue the path of the sorcerer you can keep on increasing your CL which is beneficial even without epic casting.
CL 40 at level 20 is nice even with regular pre epic spells :P

taltamir
2010-03-05, 08:26 AM
you referred to pharim as hatchlings, are they draconic? do they qualify for being white dragonspawn or greater draconic rite of passage?

magic9mushroom
2010-03-05, 08:27 AM
I would go with ur priest. 9th level spells in 9 levels.
although, if you continue the path of the sorcerer you can keep on increasing your CL which is beneficial even without epic casting.
CL 40 at level 20 is nice even with regular pre epic spells :P

Yeah, Ur-Priest is nice. But you've got 20 whole levels to do stuff with.

So maybe Erudite 10/Ur-Priest 1/Psychic Theurge 9. Hooray for triple 9s.


you referred to pharim as hatchlings, are they draconic? do they qualify for being white dragonspawn or greater draconic rite of passage?

No, although you're astute in picking that up, since they do have a table of stats vs. age like dragons do. (Hatchling is the first row on the table, there's then Juvenile, Young Adult, Adult, Mature Adult, Elder, and Revered Elder.)

Phaerimms are aberrations that look like flying windsocks with four hands and teeth on the wide end.

Tyndmyr
2010-03-05, 09:08 AM
I cast imprisonment, is your saving throw a twenty? No? Then please enjoy a permanent stay beneath Oerth's crust. Or I can just gate in a twenty hit dice pit fiend and have him mop the floor with you.

Force Cage, quickened Solid Fog, fly around a bit.

Yay, you are now trapped without LOS to me, have no idea what square Im in, and got no save whatsoever in this process.

Or time stop followed by several maws of chaos.

Or gate in a solar. I don't even require chain gating, but if you can't accept that a level 20 wizard + a solar can kill a level 20 fighter, you have issues with accepting that your favorite class isn't awesome.

There are just so many possible options for utterly destroying melee types that any competent wizard will have picked one up somewhere along the way without really trying.

Tyndmyr
2010-03-05, 09:14 AM
If you're going to go into a PvP tangent, stat up your characters and take it to the RP forums where we can see all the rolls. :smalltongue:

Schrodinger's Wizard vs Schrodinger's fighter will just be pages of semantic "lol I play my trap card!".

This is true.

On this basis, I happily challenge Stubbed Tounge to a duel(or series of duels, at his preference) of a level 20 wizard vs a level 20 fighter.

If he prefers no prestige classes, or core only, Im fine with that, his call. Whatever limitations apply to one apply to the other, naturally, and combat will take place via RAW. Up to defending it, Stub?

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-05, 09:47 AM
Eh, not if you use White Dragonspawn (if you're referring to "can cast 3rd level spells).

When I state "without early entry", I refer to feats, races, and other abilities that advance sorceror or wizard abilities, skills, feats, or spell progression faster than the levels at which they are gained via the SRD table for purposes of qualification.

If White Dragonspawn does this, it qualifies. Assuming you're referring to a Whitespawn hordeling in MM4, that, by itself, won't do it. You would also need a feat or somesuch, which definately puts it into Early Entry.

Why do I mention this?

Not all fighters are orcs.
Not all sorcerors are loredrakes with scales.

In fact, I believe that the majority of each are not. I believe that the majority of PC's of each class that have ever been played are not.

I mean, with enough early entry, you can make level 10 characters with level 9 spells. This says nothing of the classes in question, because that's not the way they're played 99.99% of the time.

With early entry, and infinite shenanigans, and the like, there's no point assessing balance. They all win, and they all lose. Because such things do need reining in, to prevent abuses over the basic mechanics of the game.


This is true.

On this basis, I happily challenge Stubbed Tounge to a duel(or series of duels, at his preference) of a level 20 wizard vs a level 20 fighter.

If he prefers no prestige classes, or core only, Im fine with that, his call. Whatever limitations apply to one apply to the other, naturally, and combat will take place via RAW. Up to defending it, Stub?
As was evidenced in the 13 wizard vs 20 fighter thread, WBL is far more important than class features, when played to win. At 20th level, a commoner can have an arbitrary number of Solar simulacra following him wherever he goes, without too much work. In core.

Volkov
2010-03-05, 09:50 AM
Force Cage, quickened Solid Fog, fly around a bit.

Yay, you are now trapped without LOS to me, have no idea what square Im in, and got no save whatsoever in this process.

Or time stop followed by several maws of chaos.

Or gate in a solar. I don't even require chain gating, but if you can't accept that a level 20 wizard + a solar can kill a level 20 fighter, you have issues with accepting that your favorite class isn't awesome.

There are just so many possible options for utterly destroying melee types that any competent wizard will have picked one up somewhere along the way without really trying.
I think solars are overdone and quite frankly they look kind of dumb. I'll stick with advanced pit fiends.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-05, 09:51 AM
I think solars are overdone and quite frankly they look kind of dumb. I'll stick with advanced pit fiends.

Solars are overdone for a reason. 20th level cleric casting.

Volkov
2010-03-05, 09:54 AM
Solars are overdone for a reason. 20th level cleric casting.

They're still shiny greyskinned bald dudes in a toga.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-05, 09:57 AM
They're still shiny greyskinned bald dudes in a toga.

Watch what happens when a pit fiend calls em that to their face.

Volkov
2010-03-05, 09:59 AM
Watch what happens when a pit fiend calls em that to their face.

The pit fiend wishes that it rolls a natural twenty on it's next attack, that the solar fails it's next save and cannot be cured of any poison. The piit fiend bites the solar, injects it's lethal venom, and teleports away.

Cyclocone
2010-03-05, 10:05 AM
Watch what happens when a pit fiend calls em that to their face.

Whatever happens, please tell me the togas stay on.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-05, 10:11 AM
Whatever happens, please tell me the togas stay on.

Only in the edited for network version.

Volkov
2010-03-05, 10:12 AM
Alternatively, the pit fiend uses a wish to summon ten more pit fiends, who use their wishes to kill the solar.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-05, 10:15 AM
The pit fiend wishes that it rolls a natural twenty on it's next attack, that the solar fails it's next save and cannot be cured of any poison. The piit fiend bites the solar, injects it's lethal venom, and teleports away.

And that wish fails on account of being overly powerful.

Alternately, the solar uses a Miracle to become immune to all damage from the next attack the pit fiend makes, and that the pit fiend cannot teleport away.

No damage, no poison.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-05, 10:16 AM
Aw, is the fighter supporter gone? I wanted to see him be crushed brutally.:smallfrown:

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-05, 10:18 AM
Alternatively, the pit fiend uses a wish to summon ten more pit fiends, who use their wishes to kill the solar.

Alternately, the Solar uses a greater miracle to transport the entire fight to the throne of all goodly creatures, upon which 1000 solars sit.

Miracle is capable of greater effects than wish. Solars get more wishes AND more miracles. If you want to try again, without using your wishes to duplicate 10 effects, all of which are stronger than anything a wish can do, I'm all ears.

For example: Auto hitting an attack is duplicatable by mimicking limited wish, which can do that. Auto failing a save is not allowed anywhere. Making poison incurable is not allowed anywhere. Any one of those would be either a wish, or stretching the boundaries of what a wish can do.

As for summoning 10 pit fiends? Name me one spell that can summon ONE pit fiend.

hamishspence
2010-03-05, 10:41 AM
Gate (9th level), though that's Calling, not Summoning.

Fawsto
2010-03-05, 11:01 AM
Multi-Ninja'ed:

IMO, the biggest difference between the Wizard and the Sorcerer is composed of 3 aspects:

1) Sorcerers get higher level spells 1 level later;
2) Sorcerers can't apply metamagic feats so easily to their spells;
3) Wizards get bonus feats;

All those considered and assuming that a well played wizard or sorcerer will never run out of spells, we may assume that extra uses of fewer spells is not as good as having them earlier, with more versatility and with metamagics.

Don't get me wrong, Sorcerer is still a full caster with lots of powerful tricks, making him a top class. The issue is that the wizard can say "I am Batman!"

JoshuaZ
2010-03-05, 11:54 AM
While it is true that outside core there are a lot of ways for both the sorcerer and the wizard to be broken that's hardly the point. With enough non-core stuff almost any full-caster is breakable.

For the remainder of this post, let's restrict to core non-epic for simplicity (and once something is outside core not everyone has access and some DMs won't allow it). The sorcerer gets new spells a level after the wizard. That means that at 3rd,5th,7th,9th,11th,13th,15th and 17th levels the wizard has access to an entire level of spells that the sorcerer has none of. That means that for a straight wizard v. straight sorcerer the wizard is more powerful at least 8/20=40% of time. When a sorcerer does pick up a new spell level they also only get a single spell of that level, by which time the wizard may well have four spells of that level even with just the wizard's default 2 spells per a level. The free bonus feats the wizard gets are just gravy.

Wizards also are more flexible in terms of what builds can be made with them. To see this, look at both a wizard or a sorcerer trying to PrC out. Again, let's stick to core. The obvious PrCs to examine are the Arcane Archer, Arcane Trickster, Archmage, Dragon Disciple, Loremaster, Eldritch Knight, and Thaumaturgist. These are the only ones which are naturally for spellcasters. So what do we find?

Of these, one of them the Dragon Disciple is sorcerer only (well a bard could take it but that's incidental). The only reason it is sorcerer only is fluff.

The two PrCs that fit the spellcaster stereotype are the Archmage and the Loremaster. How do the sorcerer and wizard compare here? Well, Wanda wizard can qualify for Archmage after 13th level with little trouble. Sure they need to burn a skill focus feat, but they've got lots of feats to spare. But Sammy the Sorcerer doesn't do nearly as well. Sammy can't take a level in Archmage until at least 15th level. And that requires planning since he has only 6 spells known of at least 5th level which means that if he's not careful he won't have enough schools to qualify. And the feats? Poor Sammy, if he takes those feats he's essentially foregoing any opportunity to have juicy item creation of metamagic.

Now, let's look at the Loremaster. Wanda qualifies for this almost automatically with three divination spells automatically as cantrips in her initial spellbook. Sammy however would need to take 7 spells known as divination, the weakest school in the game. And the feats? Wanda gets them almost automatically. She starts with one up on Sammy at level 1 from Scribe Scroll. Heck, if she goes until Wizard 10 she get the other two automatically and just needs the Skill Focus. Sammy needs to use his limited feats to qualify meaning he can't do much else (such as getting Spell Focus feats or something to broaden himself beyond a basic spellcaster).

A wizard almost falls into Loremaster or Archmage but a sorcerer has to plan out how to get there and forego other options when they do.

What about other PrCs? Well, we've got the Mystic Theurge, a weak class but not incredibly weak. The wizard who multiclasses with cleric to get it can take the first level at 7th. Poor Sammy has to wait until 8th level. And Wanda gets a choice of 9th level spellcasting on either the divine or arcane end. But qualifying as a sorcerer means Sammy can't get 9th level spells pre-epic on either side.

What's left? The Arcane Trickster is slightly easier for the wizard to take but only marginally. Wanda and Sammy can both become Arcane Archers about as well, but it is a very weak class. The wizard can qualify for Eldritch Knight 1 level before and isn't hurt nearly as much by the loss in caster levels as the sorcerer (the sorcerer becomes 3 full levels below the straight wizard in terms of when they get new spells whereas the wizard becomes only 2 below). The Thaumaturgist (which is so weak that everyone forgets it exists) is slightly easier for the wizard to qualify for (they get to qualify one level earlier again) but there's only a single feat required which again means the wizard has slightly more flexibility for further character building although since it is only one feat it doesn't matter as much.

Overall, the wizard has a much easier time qualifying for PrCs than the sorcerer. The only glaring exception is a weak class that is made specifically for sorcerers' fluff.

If we stuck to any single book outside core without the word "Dragon" or some variant of that word in it we'd see the same thing (and the only reason we don't see it in those books is because the fluff that sorcerers are connected to dragons means that those books contain lots of sorcerer-only goodies that frequently have no reason to be sorcerer only aside from fluff).

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-05, 12:15 PM
Aw, is the fighter supporter gone? I wanted to see him be crushed brutally.:smallfrown:

Gone but not forgotten apparently. LOL.

I hope you mean me.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-05, 12:19 PM
Gone but not forgotten apparently. LOL.

I hope you mean me.

So are you willing to try out the fighter v. wizard test proposed 2 pages ago?

Gov2win
2010-03-05, 12:41 PM
Hey, so I was wondering if this would be a terribly unbalanced fixed for Sorcerers:

Letting them choose their spells known from the designated level or any level lower. For example, with this rule, at level 4 a Sorcerer learns a level 0 spell and can learn a level 2, 1, or 0 spell.

Obviously this is probably far from a "fix" for Sorcerers, but I figure it closes the gap somewhat by adding to the Sorcerer's potential versatility.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-05, 12:47 PM
Hey, so I was wondering if this would be a terribly unbalanced fixed for Sorcerers:

Letting them choose their spells known from the designated level or any level lower. For example, with this rule, at level 4 a Sorcerer learns a level 0 spell and can learn a level 2, 1, or 0 spell.

Obviously this is probably far from a "fix" for Sorcerers, but I figure it closes the gap somewhat by adding to the Sorcerer's potential versatility.

It works a little bit. But they are already behind wizards in their spell level, so it is very rare when a sorcerer would want to actually snag spells of a lower level. If you want to put them closer on par to a wizard, give them bonus metamagic feats like a wizard (possibly not item creation as an option for fluffy reasons), get rid of the metamagic slowing down casting rule, give them eschew material components at level 1, and bump their spells per a day and spells known in the obvious fashion to put them on par with wizards (so at 3rd they'd get 2 second level spells per a day and an additional 2nd level spell known. Similarly at 5th they'd get 2 3rd level spells per a day an additional 3rd level spell known and so on). That solves most of the problems. But they still won't be quite T1. But they'll be close enough that it won't make much of a difference.

Personally, I find sorcerers to be more fun to play anyways and I don't usually have the real life time to think enough to play a wizard optimally (lack of real life time more than anything else interferes with figuring out what to prepare). So if the standard sorcerer worked like above I'd take it every single time.

Gov2win
2010-03-05, 12:53 PM
It works a little bit. But they are already behind wizards in their spell level, so it is very rare when a sorcerer would want to actually snag spells of a lower level. If you want to put them closer on par to a wizard, give them bonus metamagic feats like a wizard (possibly not item creation as an option for fluffy reasons), get rid of the metamagic slowing down casting rule, give them eschew material components at level 1, and bump their spells per a day and spells known in the obvious fashion to put them on par with wizards (so at 3rd they'd get 2 second level spells per a day and an additional 2nd level spell known. Similarly at 5th they'd get 2 3rd level spells per a day an additional 3rd level spell known and so on). That solves most of the problems. But they still won't be quite T1. But they'll be close enough that it won't make much of a difference.

First off, thank you for the criticism! I like your fix, I think it's fair (Not unlike a few other fixes I saw here), but the only thing is some people I play with are very closed off to the idea of changing what's written in books. So, at times, if I get away with a small fix here and there it should be considered lucky.

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-05, 01:07 PM
Nah, I don't care that much. Just trying to point out that in D&D there are at hundreds of feats, hundreds of spells, thousands of pieces of gear and countless monsters that don't carry their stats on a sign around their necks. D&D is a game of CHANCE and DICE. I know everyone on this board typing can come up with a trump card for everything else. Or at least you should be able too, right?

Here ya go:


I will also add that a wizard full knowing what he is facing, a fighter in this case, will take spells accordingly and thus have a greater chance of winning. That is obvious. Yet without really knowing what you are up against or fighting later in the day after some of your spells are depleted or being in unfriendly terrain takes a HUGE amount of power away from the wizard(any caster really). Yet a fighter's sword never runs out of charges. That also is obvious. The aforementioned 'imprisonment' Volkov cast on me is a touch attack, he could have missed, he could have been hit by the fighter using a vorpal weapon, he could have failed his spot check to even find the fighter, he could have saved, he could have hit only one of the fighter's mirror images(they can use magic too you know), etc, etc, etc. D&D....STILL, a game of chance people. Anyone who says they have never had their pet wizard killed by a big dumb critter (read fighter here) is either lying, hasn't played enough, incredibly lucky, or has a DM that caters to them and/or coddles them. That also is obvious.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-05, 01:14 PM
Here ya go:


I will also add that a wizard full knowing what he is facing, a fighter in this case, will take spells accordingly and thus have a greater chance of winning. That is obvious. Yet without really knowing what you are up against or fighting later in the day after some of your spells are depleted or being in unfriendly terrain takes a HUGE amount of power away from the wizard(any caster really). Yet a fighter's sword never runs out of charges. That also is obvious. The aforementioned 'imprisonment' Volkov cast on me is a touch attack, he could have missed, he could have been hit by the fighter using a vorpal weapon, he could have failed his spot check to even find the fighter, he could have saved, he could have hit only one of the fighter's mirror images(they can use magic too you know), etc, etc, etc. D&D....STILL, a game of chance people. Anyone who says they have never had their pet wizard killed by a big dumb critter (read fighter here) is either lying, hasn't played enough, incredibly lucky, or has a DM that caters to them and/or coddles them. That also is obvious.

That argument makes very little sense. It is somewhat akin to arguing that because poker is a game of chance that a random person off the street is akin to a world champion poker player. Sure, sometimes the random person will get lucky. But generally the champion will win. The situation is similar, yes ocasionally the wizard will lose, but they'll generally do much better than the fighter. That's what matters.

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-05, 01:18 PM
The situation is similar, yes ocasionally the wizard will lose, but they'll generally do much better than the fighter. That's what matters.

Ah we finally agree. There is a chance the wizard will lose. At low levels the fight is hedged toward the fighter. At higher levels a half depleted wizard can still probably defeat a purpose built fighter.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-05, 01:21 PM
Ah we finally agree. There is a chance the wizard will lose.

Read the rest of what I wrote. There's also a chance that I'll spontaneously quantum tunnel with my entire body intact across the room. It isn't very likely. No one is going to claim that the wizard will win every single time. That's stupid. But it is true that the vast majority of the time the wizard will win. The fact that there's a tiny probablity otherwise isn't terribly relevant. Or to put it another way, there's still a tiny probability that between a level 1 commoner and a 20th level wizard the commoner will win. It isn't very likely. Do you think that the commoner should be regarded as on the same level as the 20th level wizard because there's a very small chance that the commoner will kill the wizard?

satorian
2010-03-05, 01:22 PM
Stubby,
Assuming that the wizard does not know what is coming, but has not depleted his resources (spells) just as the fighter has not depleted his (HP), he still wins. A wizard 20 out for a stroll in the park will probably have time stop, celerity, greater dispel (probably not disjunction), anti-magic field, flight of some sort, shapechange, and a few other toys, you know, for the kids. He'd probably have something for direct damage like an empowered, twinned orb of force. A couple save or dies, some against will saves, some against fort. So, 100 feet away in the park. Wizard celerities and timestops, so he goes first and has a few rounds to act. During those rounds, the fighter dies. Wizzie has a lot of options how, but first he will dispel all buffs, then he will fly invisible just in case, then he will unload the booms. This is not Schroedinger's wizard. It's a wizard on a normal day when he doesn't know what he might face. In order to have the fighter win, you'd have to have the wizard do something ridiculous like prepare all fire spells and nothing else, and the fighter to bring some immunity to fire.

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-05, 01:26 PM
Read the rest of what I wrote. There's also a chance that I'll spontaneously quantum tunnel with my entire body intact across the room. It isn't very likely. No one is going to claim that the wizard will win every single time. That's stupid. But it is true that the vast majority of the time the wizard will win. The fact that there's a tiny probablity otherwise isn't terribly relevant. Or to put it another way, there's still a tiny probability that between a level 1 commoner and a 20th level wizard the commoner will win. It isn't very likely. Do you think that the commoner should be regarded as on the same level as the 20th level wizard because there's a very small chance that the commoner will kill the wizard?

I read everything you wrote. Trust me I'm one of those people who legitamately wants to be liked and respected and the best way to do that is to read everything someone has posted.

And again we agree.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-05, 01:27 PM
Stubby,
Assuming that the wizard does not know what is coming, but has not depleted his resources (spells) just as the fighter has not depleted his (HP), he still wins. A wizard 20 out for a stroll in the park will probably have time stop, celerity, greater dispel (probably not disjunction), anti-magic field, flight of some sort, shapechange, and a few other toys, you know, for the kids. He'd probably have something for direct damage like an empowered, twinned orb of force. A couple save or dies, some against will saves, some against fort. So, 100 feet away in the park. Wizard celerities and timestops, so he goes first and has a few rounds to act. During those rounds, the fighter dies. Wizzie has a lot of options how, but first he will dispel all buffs, then he will fly invisible just in case, then he will unload the booms.

Actually, the dispelling and unloading can't happen during the timestop. But yeah, greater invisibility and flying cast during the time stop will make very short work even they roll a 1 on the timestop rounds.

Tyndmyr
2010-03-05, 01:29 PM
Here ya go:


I will also add that a wizard full knowing what he is facing, a fighter in this case, will take spells accordingly and thus have a greater chance of winning. That is obvious.

The world is full of things that hurt you by hitting you. Why would you ever not prepare for that?

I will also happily accept a challenge in which we both face identical challenges, unknown to us in advance, and escalating in CR. Say, random SRD mobs. Would that address the preparation complaint?


Yet without really knowing what you are up against or fighting later in the day after some of your spells are depleted or being in unfriendly terrain takes a HUGE amount of power away from the wizard(any caster really). Yet a fighter's sword never runs out of charges. That also is obvious.

No, but the fighter does run out of hit point. Thats his stopping point.


The aforementioned 'imprisonment' Volkov cast on me is a touch attack, he could have missed,

5% chance of failure to instagib you does not a equal class make. I should point out that this chance does not exist in my approach.


he could have been hit by the fighter using a vorpal weapon,

How?


he could have failed his spot check to even find the fighter,

Because wizards are inable to find people, and fighters are stealthy? What?


he could have saved, he could have hit only one of the fighter's mirror images(they can use magic too you know), etc, etc, etc.

No true seeing? Mirror image on a class without UMD, and for which cha is a dump stat? Yeah, this is shrodinger's fighter here.


D&D....STILL, a game of chance people. Anyone who says they have never had their pet wizard killed by a big dumb critter (read fighter here) is either lying, hasn't played enough, incredibly lucky, or has a DM that caters to them and/or coddles them. That also is obvious.

No...I actually have had a wizard killed by a bear. I was arrogant enough to make a touch attack without bothering to buff. I rolled minimum ability damage, and got pwned by a full attack. That failing was not due to the wizard class, though, but due to the arrogance of player/character, and says nothing about class balance.

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-05, 01:30 PM
Stubby,
Assuming that the wizard does not know what is coming, but has not depleted his resources (spells) just as the fighter has not depleted his (HP), he still wins. A wizard 20 out for a stroll in the park will probably have time stop, celerity, greater dispel (probably not disjunction), anti-magic field, flight of some sort, shapechange, and a few other toys, you know, for the kids. He'd probably have something for direct damage like an empowered, twinned orb of force. A couple save or dies, some against will saves, some against fort. So, 100 feet away in the park. Wizard celerities and timestops, so he goes first and has a few rounds to act. During those rounds, the fighter dies. Wizzie has a lot of options how, but first he will dispel all buffs, then he will fly invisible just in case, then he will unload the booms. This is not Schroedinger's wizard. It's a wizard on a normal day when he doesn't know what he might face. In order to have the fighter win, you'd have to have the wizard do something ridiculous like prepare all fire spells and nothing else, and the fighter to bring some immunity to fire.
Or any of an infinite number of other possibilities that might advantage the fighter enough for a win.

Kylarra
2010-03-05, 01:31 PM
Reserve feats go a long way towards dispelling the myth that the spellcaster will run out of "spells". He can still blast all day or whatever.


Or any of an infinite number of other possibilities that might advantage the fighter enough for a win.
The key is consistency though. The fighter cannot consistently win. :smalltongue:

Gov2win
2010-03-05, 01:31 PM
He'd probably have something for direct damage like an empowered, twinned orb of force.

That actually reminds be of something I've been meaning to ask. Recently, at a game shop I go to, someone there said you can use Split Ray on the "Orb" spells. I didn't believe them, still don't, but at the same time know that I could always be wrong.

Were they correct?

Tyndmyr
2010-03-05, 01:32 PM
Or any of an infinite number of other possibilities that might advantage the fighter enough for a win.

See, this is why playing the game of "nuh, uh, I could do THIS" doesn't work. You can talk in hypotheticals all day, and change your theoretical build, gear, and situation to make yourself "right". This proves nothing.

Hence the example. If you dislike level 20, say, level 10 would be equally good.

2xMachina
2010-03-05, 01:38 PM
That actually reminds be of something I've been meaning to ask. Recently, at a game shop I go to, someone there said you can use Split Ray on the "Orb" spells. I didn't believe them, still don't, but at the same time know that I could always be wrong.

Were they correct?

Only if they Ocular it.

Whee! Repeat Chained, Split ray, Twinned, Ocular, Orbs! Everything, take damage.

EDIT: They might have confused Split with Twin or some other obscure Metamagic that splits spells.

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-05, 01:40 PM
Reserve feats go a long way towards dispelling the myth that the spellcaster will run out of "spells". He can still blast all day or whatever.


The key is consistency though. The fighter cannot consistently win. :smalltongue:

To be honest it would be an Herculean task to create a 20th level fighter to beat any 'run of the mill' wizard. A lot of readied actions, some type of true seeing, flight, UMD topped out, magic items more suited to a spell caster, a good hide skill, adamantine weapons, Quaal's feather tokens. The last 'duel' I did against a wizard I used a Quaal's feather token(tree) to entangle the wizard. Good times.

Gov2win
2010-03-05, 01:43 PM
Only if they Ocular it.

Whee! Repeat Chained, Split ray, Twinned, Ocular, Orbs! Everything, take damage.

EDIT: They might have confused Split with Twin or some other obscure Metamagic that splits spells.

That's what I thought, thank you! I don't know about all these other crazy metamagics though, but I'm pretty sure he just meant you can just take it on to any orb spell. So yeah, I'm sure confusion was the issue..:smallamused:

Stubbed Tongue
2010-03-05, 01:45 PM
I want to say "I'm sorry for helping to derail your post" to Gov2win.

To the other debaters: I feel warm and fuzzy enough that we agree enough that it's been enough and will now drift into lurk mode.


Thanks for the great debate.

Tyndmyr
2010-03-05, 01:51 PM
To be honest it would be an Herculean task to create a 20th level fighter to beat any 'run of the mill' wizard. A lot of readied actions, some type of true seeing, flight, UMD topped out, magic items more suited to a spell caster, a good hide skill, adamantine weapons, Quaal's feather tokens. The last 'duel' I did against a wizard I used a Quaal's feather token(tree) to entangle the wizard. Good times.

The offer of a duel is still open at a lower level, if you wish. Any level you prefer.

tyckspoon
2010-03-05, 01:51 PM
That's what I thought, thank you! I don't know about all these other crazy metamagics though, but I'm pretty sure he just meant you can just take it on to any orb spell. So yeah, I'm sure confusion was the issue..:smallamused:

It's more likely he simply forgot that "Ray" is not rules-synonymous with "single target ranged touch attack projectile spell." Split Ray specifically only applies to the former, and the Orb spells are the latter. It's an easy distinction to forget, because such pseudo-ray spells are relatively uncommon compared to rays and they operate almost exactly like rays except for not actually being rays.

taltamir
2010-03-05, 04:09 PM
it seems we have an argument over the nature of "infantesimal probability". a level 20 fighter CAN beat a well built level 20 wizard, so can a level 1 commoner for that matter. But the chances of that happening are mind bogglingly low, so that most people who are aware of it simply and say "the wizard always wins".

Pluto
2010-03-05, 04:42 PM
... The Thaumaturgist (which is so weak that everyone forgets it exists) ...
Um, no.

Contingencies for Clerics (albiet limited in effects), free Extended Summons, Augment Summoning, discounted Planar Ally and a built-in Leadership are all very useful abilities.

The reason you don't see Thaumaturgist much in core Wizard discussions is that neither Wizards nor Sorcerers qualify in core.

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