Headaches

[waterpenguin43]

Ugh.... Someone I know wants to co-DM with me. This part is okay. I made him promise that he wouldn't try to complain about any of my ideas. He then pesters me and asks to be able to make one of the NPC's. I say: "I'll think about it." I decide against it that night, after he leaves, as he has much less experience than me and I was going to base it for the most part off of a certain video game (EarthBound with a lot more plot.) also, the campaign world is modern and based of Canada instead of US. (Though a place based off Hawaii will replace Summers.) I tell him, and he gets really mad, because HE wanted to make an NPC that the party would meet in Manitoba. I tell him okay, if the NPC is minor, but once again, Nooooooooooo. It has to be a party member accompanying them forever. Not only that, but he wants it to be the THIRD main character, and as there are 2 PC's........
Ugh. I can't say no to him being co-DM, or else he'll reveal all the secrets. And if I say I'll give him negative levels for doing so, he'll probably quit or something far fetched like that.
My other idea is subtly killing off his NPC, but then he'll just get really, REALLY mad or find some sort of bringing her back or killing the other two NPC's (based off Jeff and Poo)

As the ever wise Playground, what should I do?

[Dr Bwaa]

Maybe I'll get in before everyone else does.

This guy wants to play, but he wants to have all the power as well. In short, it sounds like he just wants to run a DMPC. As (almost) everyone on these boards will tell you, that is very often a recipe for disaster. And, as (almost) everyone on these boards will tell you, the only way to deal with it is to talk to him, up-front, and tell him what you want for the campaign, tell him your impression of what he wants for the game, and then tell him to suck it up and be a normal PC like everyone else. Any abuse of his metagame knowledge is punishable, and he should be warned about that up-front as well. In short, be honest with him; tell him what the problems are with what he wants, and then let him make a choice. If that choice is to leave, well, so be it. Worse (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23784) things (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1268727&postcount=58) have (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1268854&postcount=61) happened (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1269200&postcount=70). All on that same thread.

@V yes :smallbiggrin:

[Optimystik]

I don't have a solution for your dilemma; I'm just chiming in to say that an Earthbound-based psionics campaign would be awesome :smallbiggrin: that is all.

[Bibliomancer]

If you only have 2 PCs, would it be so bad to have a 3rd that also helps you plan? Try to strike a compromise with your Co-DM, saying that a) the NPC only gets to join if he can convince the other players, b) the NPC will participate in a maximum of 2 missions out of every 3, and c) he cannot take advantage of OOC knowledge to aid the NPC. The ensure compliance with the last point, subtly change key parts of the adventure so that using OOC knowledge would produce VERY bad results.

If this isn't satisfactory to you, perhaps you should clarify why you only want to have two PCs.

[Kaun]

Sounds like you have a minor Douche' infestation.

Personaly i think Henry4000 is probably on the mark, he just want more power in the game then the rest of the PC's.

I myself would be as subtle as a wet fish to the face with this issue and draw the line clearly in the sand.
DMPC's are like a violin; in skilled hands they can be a truely wonderfull thing but when handled by an amature there is no quicker way to clear a room.

Also look at it this way, if he does stop being a co'dm and starts using metagame knowledge to get power. Tweak the story enough that he ends up standing there with egg on his face, there is nothing funnier then a smug bastard who thinks he has it all figured out realising that he has just dumped him self in it.

[waterpenguin43]

Sounds like you have a minor Douche' infestation.

Personaly i think Henry4000 is probably on the mark, he just want more power in the game then the rest of the PC's.

I myself would be as subtle as a wet fish to the face with this issue and draw the line clearly in the sand.
DMPC's are like a violin; in skilled hands they can be a truely wonderfull thing but when handled by an amature there is no quicker way to clear a room.

Also look at it this way, if he does stop being a co'dm and starts using metagame knowledge to get power. Tweak the story enough that he ends up standing there with egg on his face, there is nothing funnier then a smug bastard who thinks he has it all figured out realising that he has just dumped him self in it. Oooh, that would be funny! All though I don't know for sure if he WOULD use metagame, so maybe I'll try your solution as a last resort.

If you only have 2 PCs, would it be so bad to have a 3rd that also helps you plan? Try to strike a compromise with your Co-DM, saying that a) the NPC only gets to join if he can convince the other players, b) the NPC will participate in a maximum of 2 missions out of every 3, and c) he cannot take advantage of OOC knowledge to aid the NPC. The ensure compliance with the last point, subtly change key parts of the adventure so that using OOC knowledge would produce VERY bad results.

If this isn't satisfactory to you, perhaps you should clarify why you only want to have two PCs.

Hmmm... The Diplomatic Route.... I'll consider it...

Maybe I'll get in before everyone else does.

This guy wants to play, but he wants to have all the power as well. In short, it sounds like he just wants to run a DMPC. As (almost) everyone on these boards will tell you, that is very often a recipe for disaster. And, as (almost) everyone on these boards will tell you, the only way to deal with it is to talk to him, up-front, and tell him what you want for the campaign, tell him your impression of what he wants for the game, and then tell him to suck it up and be a normal PC like everyone else. Any abuse of his metagame knowledge is punishable, and he should be warned about that up-front as well. In short, be honest with him; tell him what the problems are with what he wants, and then let him make a choice. If that choice is to leave, well, so be it. Worse (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23784) things (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1268727&postcount=58) have (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1268854&postcount=61) happened (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1269200&postcount=70). All on that same thread.
@V yes :smallbiggrin:
Oh my..... I read that.... What kind of deranged DM would do that?!shudders:smalleek:


I don't have a solution for your dilemma; I'm just chiming in to say that an Earthbound-based psionics campaign would be awesome :smallbiggrin: that is all.

Why thank you.:smalltongue:

[The Dark Fiddler]

I don't have a solution for your dilemma; I'm just chiming in to say that an Earthbound-based psionics campaign would be awesome :smallbiggrin: that is all.

Tell me about it. That's another type of campaign to toss on the ever growing pile of campaigns I wish to try at some point.

Oh, right, on topic. Uh... I second Bibliomancer's suggestions.

[Dr Bwaa]

incidental and off-topic, but:
I do not fully understand, yet thoroughly enjoy, your avatar (waterpenguin). :smallcool:

[waterpenguin43]

Tell me about it. That's another type of campaign to toss on the ever growing pile of campaigns I wish to try at some point.

Oh, right, on topic. Uh... I second Bibliomancer's suggestions.

incidental and off-topic, but:
I do not fully understand, yet thoroughly enjoy, your avatar (waterpenguin). :smallcool:
A mage with his handy King Penguin sidekick is casting a spell, likely a fusion of Cone of Cold and Fog Cloud.
Wow... This is more compliments in a short period of time that I could evewr HOPE of getting in real life!! Thank you all very much.:smalltongue:

Also, to be exact about the campaign: Illithids and other Abberations are coming from space and attacking Canada (They are Mind Flayers of Thoon, and want to get at vast quintessence mines below.) One of the characters (a rogue, because I let him choose, expecting him to be a psion as he likes them.) lives in my hometown, Vancouver. A meteor lands in Camosun Bog and he goes to investigate, and guess what, it's an alien based off Buzz-Buzz!!! He learns that he and the other chosen FOUR(*Grumble*) will join him in his quest to awaken six good dragons across Canada so they can fight of the illithid invasion. He meets the inventor(Jeffff...., inventor is my homebrew class) after he and two others are captured by zombies in Winnipeg, and the Tibetan Psion(Based of Poo, but with a different name for obvious reasons.) in Hawaii. They start at level 4 each. It's modern and neither wizards or barbarians exist. Nor does anything from ToB, ToM or CW. Sorcerers exist but are very, VERY rare. Clerics now worship a pantheon made up of modern religions, Druids are more like hippies, Fighters are Split Into Chain Gang Style Fighters and Soldier-like Fighters. Rogues are now like mafia members and Ninja's are more like spies, Paladins are the "Police" unit of the country and there is a new class called Inventor (Which, incidentally, I should probably post on the Homebrew thread soon.). The world is a very different place from the old fashioned D&D.

I wish HE apprieciated Earthbound more...:smallmad:

[SethFahad]

Ugh.... Someone I know wants to co-DM with me. This part is okay. I made him promise that he wouldn't try to complain about any of my ideas.
.......
Ugh. I can't say no to him being co-DM, or else he'll reveal all the secrets. And if I say I'll give him negative levels for doing so, he'll probably quit or something far fetched like that.
My other idea is subtly killing off his NPC, but then he'll just get really, REALLY mad or find some sort of bringing her back or killing the other two NPC's (based off Jeff and Poo)

As the ever wise Playground, what should I do?

The Dungeon Master is THE GOD of pencil and paper rpgs.
I repeat: THE GOD.

And the wise commandment says:

"I am the DM thy God. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. [...] for I the DM thy God am a jealous God, punishing [...] those who reject me. [...] Thou shalt not take the name of the DM thy God in vain, for the DM will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain."


You've made a grave mistake mate... :smallamused:

[Ashiel]

The Dungeon Master is THE GOD of pencil and paper rpgs.
I repeat: THE GOD.

And the wise commandment says:

"I am the DM thy God. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. [...] for I the DM thy God am a jealous God, punishing [...] those who reject me. [...] Thou shalt not take the name of the DM thy God in vain, for the DM will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain."


You've made a grave mistake mate... :smallamused:

The GM is God comment bothers me more than the misused commandment. Considering my religion, that should probably strike me as odd. :smallconfused:

[SethFahad]

The GM is God comment bothers me more than the misused commandment. Considering my religion, that should probably strike me as odd. :smallconfused:

Didn't mean to offend anyone. Besides, I said clearly that DM is the god in pencil and paper rpgs. I think no one can say otherwise...

Anyway, it was a humorous post, nothing more. So I'm sorry if you were offended.

As for the "misused commandment", I made an equivalent one for rpgs. There can be only one DM in a game.
More concerning (and severe) than the "misused commandment", is the daily violation of the commandments.

[Ashiel]

Didn't mean to offend anyone. Besides, I said clearly that DM is the god in pencil and paper rpgs. I think no one can say otherwise...

Anyway, it was a humorous post, nothing more. So I'm sorry if you were offended.

As for the "misused commandment", I made an equivalent one for rpgs. There can be only one DM in a game.
More concerning (and severe) than the "misused commandment", is the daily violation of the commandments.

Heh. Don't worry. I'm not offended. It's actually more like I don't really buy into the "GM=God @ Table/Game" thing. I actually found your post humorous; as well as humorous that I wasn't offended. :smalltongue:

All is well. :smallsmile:

[waterpenguin43]

Sounds like you have a minor Douche' infestation.

Personaly i think Henry4000 is probably on the mark, he just want more power in the game then the rest of the PC's.

I myself would be as subtle as a wet fish to the face with this issue and draw the line clearly in the sand.
DMPC's are like a violin; in skilled hands they can be a truely wonderfull thing but when handled by an amature there is no quicker way to clear a room.

Also look at it this way, if he does stop being a co'dm and starts using metagame knowledge to get power. Tweak the story enough that he ends up standing there with egg on his face, there is nothing funnier then a smug bastard who thinks he has it all figured out realising that he has just dumped him self in it.

Hi, this is my friend replying:
1. I'm not a douche. 2. The only thing i want to do is improve my DM-ing skills while having some creative input (an NPC that i could control); also, I wouldn't use any Metagame knowledge to influence decisions, I just want to be an "assistant" DM, as oppose to being a player.

[magic9mushroom]

Hi, this is my friend replying:
1. I'm not a douche. 2. The only thing i want to do is improve my DM-ing skills while having some creative input (an NPC that i could control); also, I wouldn't use any Metagame knowledge to influence decisions, I just want to be an "assistant" DM, as oppose to being a player.

a) shared account or relay or hax?

b) DMPCs rarely end well. This is why. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue)

[Asheram]

Hi, this is my friend replying:
1. I'm not a douche. 2. The only thing i want to do is improve my DM-ing skills while having some creative input (an NPC that i could control); also, I wouldn't use any Metagame knowledge to influence decisions, I just want to be an "assistant" DM, as oppose to being a player.

Improving DM-ing skills is all good. But running a DMPC is just a bad idea. Creative input should occur Off the screen, not in the way of "Hey, lets go over there for once." That's the job of the players.

Beside, it's just silly if your DMPC should die and then you take in another one. It'd be like the neverending flow of bards from "The Gamers 2"

[Kaun]

Hi, this is my friend replying:
1. I'm not a douche. 2. The only thing i want to do is improve my DM-ing skills while having some creative input (an NPC that i could control); also, I wouldn't use any Metagame knowledge to influence decisions, I just want to be an "assistant" DM, as oppose to being a player.

Ok thats all well and good, but from the orriginal post you have stated a fair amount of demands as to what you want your DMPC to be.

If your not willing to listen to Waterpenguins points of view and then come to a happy medium then are you really learning anything?

[Swordgleam]

Hi, this is my friend replying:
1. I'm not a douche. 2. The only thing i want to do is improve my DM-ing skills while having some creative input (an NPC that i could control); also, I wouldn't use any Metagame knowledge to influence decisions, I just want to be an "assistant" DM, as oppose to being a player.

If you want to improve your DM skills, a much better way to do that is to run a one-shot some time. Even running a simple, really rules-light game like Toon or Wushu for half an hour can teach you a lot about DMing. A lot more than you'd learn after weeks of assistant DMing.

[valadil]

Dumb question. If he can't criticize your ideas or even make an NPC what exactly did you expect your co-DM to do? I've never done collaborative table top DMing, but I have been in a LARP writing team. We spend as much time administrating who is in charge of what as we do actually writing. If you're going to let this player co-DM you have to figure out what he's in charge of.

[Emmerask]

Of course the dm has all the fun parts, writing, interacting with the party etc the co-dm gets all the number calculation parts and writing down what the players do every 10th session he may actually play a tiny monster or so:smallbiggrin:
I really wonder why my co-dms quit so fast :smile:

hmm going a bit off topic again but really restating the good arguments already made is kind of boring :-/

[Kaun]

Dumb question. If he can't criticize your ideas or even make an NPC what exactly did you expect your co-DM to do? I've never done collaborative table top DMing, but I have been in a LARP writing team. We spend as much time administrating who is in charge of what as we do actually writing. If you're going to let this player co-DM you have to figure out what he's in charge of.

From the sounds of it they havn't got your run of the mill "Co-DM" situation going on. All so LARP DMing is a massivly diffrent species.

[valadil]

All so LARP DMing is a massivly diffrent species.

I don't disagree. LARPing lends itself to letting the game be divided according to plots and each GM manages a plot. (sidenote: The linguistics nerd in me is very amused by the dual meaning of plot here as a story line or individual parcel of land.) While tabletop probably won't divide that way, tasks should somehow be divided. If co-DM is allowed to listen to story but not critique it, that's not much of a task. Maybe co-DM could draw up one combat each week. If the DM has doubts, he could set up guidelines. Say, request a combat with a level 8 caster, level 7 healer, and three level 5 melees. Then the co-DM handles the details.

[SethFahad]

Hi, this is my friend replying:
2. The only thing i want to do is improve my DM-ing skills while having some creative input (an NPC that i could control); also, I wouldn't use any Metagame knowledge to influence decisions, I just want to be an "assistant" DM, as oppose to being a player.

If you really want to "improve your DM-ing skills", all you have to do is sit next to your DM and watch.
Because to be a DM, and to be a character (PC or NPC) who knows the plot of the adventure, is completely different.

I am againt "co-DMing".

But, even if your DM is ok with it, you don't need to control a character to have "creative input".

Maybe you can paraphrase some info or even better, control a monster or enemy during an encounter. (this is REALLY helpfull for a DM, especially if the players encounter a big number of enemies!).

[Kaun]

If co-DM is allowed to listen to story but not critique it, that's not much of a task.

In my defense i did say If your not willing to listen to Waterpenguins points of view and then come to a happy medium.

In all honesty i think co DMing is generally a bad idea unless it is to solve a problem.

In the LARP example you need multiple DM's because other wise it just wouldnt work.

Some times you have nobody who wants to DM so you counter it by having multiple people take turns at DMing.

I think if you really want to hone you DM skills then running your own one shot games is probably the best way.

[Kylarra]

I think Co-DMing is great if you have a large enough group. 2 Dms and 2 players strikes me as a bad balance.

[waterpenguin43]

In my defense i did say If your not willing to listen to Waterpenguins points of view and then come to a happy medium.

In all honesty i think co DMing is generally a bad idea unless it is to solve a problem.

In the LARP example you need multiple DM's because other wise it just wouldnt work.

Some times you have nobody who wants to DM so you counter it by having multiple people take turns at DMing.

I think if you really want to hone you DM skills then running your own one shot games is probably the best way.

This is my friend again:
I do not want to make a DMPC!!! I just want to create an NPC to be part of the party. I don't even have to control it! I just like making characters and think this is an interesting opportunity.

[PinkysBrain]

My other idea is subtly killing off his NPC, but then he'll just get really, REALLY mad or find some sort of bringing her back or killing the other two NPC's (based off Jeff and Poo)
In defence of your friend who isn't here to defend himself ... what right do you have to be so negative about a DMPC when you are running two? Personally I think you just set a poor example, and he's simply following it :p

PS. it's not his game, he shouldn't demand anything of course ... but if you're running two DMPCs and you let someone co-DM making a big deal about another NPC is a bit hypocritical.