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View Full Version : Factotum Needs 2 late-build feats, no FOI



Talbot
2010-03-03, 11:56 PM
So, I'm playing a Factotum (and enjoying it), in a campaign with extra feats. I'm already maxed out on FoI, and I also have Knowledge Devotion, Quickdraw, Faerie Mysteries Initiate, Keen Intellect, and Craven. I've got two feats left by level 20, and I'm having a hard time figuring out what to take. I want feats that will aid me in combat, although if they're flavorful (I'm playing a detective) that'd be a bonus. I'm really looking for utility, though, as many of the other characters have very powerful setups and I don't want to get left behind. I'm Neutral Good, so Exalted feats may not be out of the question.

Suggestions?

Eldariel
2010-03-04, 12:02 AM
You add Int to Str-checks so Combat Expertise > Improved Trip is nice. Factotums are quite solid Trippers. Metamagic with your casting is also consideration-worthy; you can basically cast spells up to 6th level without restriction (though you're limited to one 7th level spell).

Depending on how you read things, Factotums can also make wonderful use of divine feats through their Opportunistic Piety-class feature, and I'd almost certainly want Darkstalker while playing one (provided you have appropriate skills maxed, of course).

gorfnab
2010-03-04, 12:47 AM
Look into the Reserve Feats (Complete Mage and Complete Champion) to get more utility out of your spellcasting.

JaronK
2010-03-04, 01:01 AM
EWP: Gnomish Quickrazor if Iajuitsu Focus is your thing. Craft Wand or Craft Wonderous Items might be handy for you as well. Darkstalker is of course important at the levels you're at.

JaronK

Roc Ness
2010-03-04, 01:04 AM
Improved Initiative is one that is always useful... Other than that, I always have the same problem with factotums. What feats do you choose to specialise a character that should specialise everything? :smallconfused:

Hunter Noventa
2010-03-04, 01:05 AM
Look into the Reserve Feats (Complete Mage and Complete Champion) to get more utility out of your spellcasting.

I'm not sure those work, as a Factotum's Spells are technically Spell-Like Abilities, if I recall correctly.

Haven
2010-03-04, 01:14 AM
Oh, I remember this character! How's it going?

Anyway, two feats? Perhaps Martial Study and Martial Stance.

Talbot
2010-03-04, 01:34 AM
Oh, I remember this character! How's it going?

Anyway, two feats? Perhaps Martial Study and Martial Stance.

It's going really well... although for Fluff reasons I had to do without his Warforged bodyguard.

Unfortunately, ToB is no-go Pre-Epic because the DM isn't experienced with it. As for Gnomish Quickrazors, I actually took a level of Master of Masks (should have mentioned this earlier) as suggested in the Haberdash build and have been using one.

As for Combat Expertise/Improved Trip, I actually managed to buy a (very expensive) whip-dagger that acts as if I already have the feat, so I'm good there as well.

Sadly, Reserve Feats are no-go as they're SLAs, technically. I was thinking about Metamagic (especially since we're in a very magic-phobic setting, so Silent/Invisible/Still would all be handy) but it seems kind of wasteful seeing as I only get (at most) 7 spells per day.

Darkstalker seems interesting, but the vast majority of our encounters so far (and for the forseeable future, based on the campaign world) have been versus Humans, with occasional Kaorti, Undead, or Constructs thrown in... very few animals/magical beasts/aberrations, at least so far.

I was considering master of poisons, but it seems like the poisons I can make with minor creation all have such low save DCs that it'd hardly be worth it....

What reading of Opportunistic Piety would qualify me for Divine feats? And which Divine Feats should I look at?

Eldariel
2010-03-04, 02:04 AM
Opportunistic piety gives you the ability to turn or rebuke undead. As such, you should be able to qualify for any feat that requires said ability. The question really becomes, what is your Charisma.

Zaq
2010-03-04, 02:38 AM
Insightful Reflexes basically means you'll never fail a Reflex save except on a 1, because clearly you weren't adding INT to quite enough already. If you pour a few points into it, you can get Least Utterance of the Evolving Mind (Universal Aptitude), which puts some skillmonkey in your skillmonkey so you can do everything while you do everything. (Factotum is the one and only class I would recommend that for, and you should still think about it carefully, but you can easily get your untyped +5 to everything at least 1/day, and if you can get it more, well, it's nice.) Improved Initiative is never, ever bad. Trying to think of some more generalist feats... maybe some luck feats? They're suboptimal, but they do apply to plenty of things if you play your cards right. There's that one Planar Touchstone feat which gets you access to a domain granted power... I don't have any in mind specifically, but that's rarely bad. If you have a good Listen check, you can go for Keen-Eared Scout, which isn't the most powerful feat in the game but which is actually pretty decent with a good DM. (This is not to be confused with Quick Reconnoiter, which also isn't bad if you like to see everything.) There's that one feat in Heroes of Horror which lets you see and interrogate recently dead souls... I think it's more based off of Wis than Int, but it's a good detective feat, especially since you can get awesome bonuses to Diplomacy and/or Intimidate to make them tell you exactly what you need to know. If you can talk your DM into letting your caster level count as arcane, you can take Vatic Gaze, which can be useful if you read it the same way I do (know thine enemy, after all). Track is very detective-y, but not as useful as, say, summoning something with it, or casting Locate Creature.

I can't think of anything superspecialawesome off the top of my head, but maybe one of those will at least be decent.

Person_Man
2010-03-04, 11:14 AM
Unfortunately, ToB is no-go Pre-Epic because the DM isn't experienced with it. As for Gnomish Quickrazors, I actually took a level of Master of Masks (should have mentioned this earlier) as suggested in the Haberdash build and have been using one.

What reading of Opportunistic Piety would qualify me for Divine feats? And which Divine Feats should I look at?

Glad to see Haberdash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5266526) is getting some additional play. You're the fourth person I know about who has used such a build, and everyone has reported having a fun time.

Divine feats generally require the ability to Turn Undead (although a few require the ability to Rebuke Undead, which you can't do). So you qualify.

Anywho, other good options include Boomerang Daze, Staggering Strike, Acheron Flurry, Item Familiar, Leadership, Combat Acrobat, Quicken Spell-Like Ability, Minor Shapeshift, Persistent Refusal, Sand Dancer, Sand Snare, Divine Defiance, Earth Devotion, Travel Devotion, Animal Devotion (although since you are using Knowledge Devotion, you might not want to take any other feat that draws down on the precious resource of your Turning ability).

Let me know if you'd like me to elaborate on anything. But since you're already using Keen Intellect and Faerie Mysteries Initiate, you've obviously got a good handle on things.

subject42
2010-03-04, 11:19 AM
What feats do you choose to specialise a character that should specialise everything? :smallconfused:

Toughness.




More seriously, I would suggest improved initiative and trickery devotion. The latter is especially good at high levels with sneak attack.

Draz74
2010-03-04, 12:52 PM
(although since you are using Knowledge Devotion, you might not want to take any other feat that draws down on the precious resource of your Turning ability).

Correction: strangely, Knowledge Devotion is odd among the Devotion feats in that it doesn't eat up your Turn Attempts at all.

Optimator
2010-03-04, 02:59 PM
Investigate from Eberron Campaign Setting. Look it up and realize you should've had it all along :smallbiggrin:

Person_Man
2010-03-04, 04:52 PM
Correction: strangely, Knowledge Devotion is odd among the Devotion feats in that it doesn't eat up your Turn Attempts at all.

Hmm, you are correct sir. Odd thing that. Well then, he should definitely pick up a Turn burning feat. Divine Defiance or Travel Devotion would be my first choices.

Draz74
2010-03-04, 05:16 PM
Hmm, you are correct sir. Odd thing that. Well then, he should definitely pick up a Turn burning feat. Divine Defiance or Travel Devotion would be my first choices.

Unless the DM doesn't agree that Opportunistic Piety can be used to power divine feats. (It's a gray area as far as I can tell. Like so many in the Factotum class.)

Thurbane
2010-03-04, 08:04 PM
Travel Devotion, Trickery Devotion. Army of one! :smalltongue:

Gametime
2010-03-04, 09:54 PM
If your DM allows it, Quicken Spell-Like Ability is awesomesauce for a Factotum.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-04, 11:26 PM
If your DM allows it, Quicken Spell-Like Ability is awesomesauce for a Factotum.Moreso when you stop to consider that Arcane Dilettante is a single Spell-Like Ability.

You may wish to consider some soulmelds from Magic of Incarnum. There are some really good ones around. Open a chakra or two via incarnum spells for even more fun.

How 'bout a few psionic feats? Hidden Talent (psionic minor creation) and Up the Walls? The first will give you some great versatility (including yummy poisons, hamster balls [if you're small] which will grant you full cover against any and all attacks, and tools you can whip up on the spot to get you out of serious jams), and the second will let you play havoc with difficult-to-bypass traps, give you the ability to ignore numerous Climb checks, as well as granting you extra maneuverability during a fight. I'd suggest Psicrystal Affinity, but you don't have any actual manifesting classes.

Leadership, mebbe? Tomb-Tainted Soul? Able Learner (if you plan on multiclassing)?

Curmudgeon
2010-03-04, 11:28 PM
Extra Turning and Travel Devotion will give you a pretty decent mobility boost.

Gametime
2010-03-04, 11:40 PM
Do you have any skill tricks? If you do, the feats letting you get more from Complete Scoundrel aren't bad.

Fell Conspiracy (Exemplars of Evil) is a feat I'd never noticed before, but it looks pretty cool. It allows you to perform a few rituals that offer at-will message spells, telepathic communication, bonuses to Spot and Listen, and immunity to flat-footedness and flanking for your party. Seems like good stuff for a detective.

Talbot
2010-03-05, 12:42 PM
A lot of those devotion feats seem cool, but I'm not sure my DM will let me take them. He barely let me take Knowledge Devotion, and only when I made a case that, as a detective, my character's focus in life is the collection of knowledge. All the other stuff seems cool, but awfully specific. My favorite feats are the ones I can lean on encounter after encounter, day after day, not just when I'm fighting something with blindsense, or once a day, or when I have one of my seven spells per day handy, etc.

Also, as magic users are hunted in this world. Is there any sort of feat that duplicates Nystul's Aura or otherwise helps hide magic items?

Adumbration
2010-03-05, 12:58 PM
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the feats from Tome of Magic that replicate a part of binder's power: Bind Vestige and Bind Vestige, Improved or Practised binder, whichever suits you better.

Gametime
2010-03-05, 01:46 PM
The best I could find was Special Dispensation from Cityscape. It gives you special permission from authorities to use whatever items you deem necessary. It's obviously very setting-specific, though; if the hunting of magic users is a cultural, not governmental, thing then it won't help you at all. Also, it has a prerequisite feat that involves belonging to an organization, which may not fit you.

I'd stick to a combination of Sleight of Hand to hide what you can and using your actual casting for Nystul's Magic Aura on what you can't.

Draz74
2010-03-05, 01:50 PM
In that case I'd like to second taking a look at Martial Study and Martial Stance. What kind depends on how your character plays.

If your Concentration check is maxxed, Insightful Strike is an amazing option 1/encounter.

If you use a shield and protecting your allies is sometimes part of your job, Shield Block is great, and as a bonus it's a prerequisite for Thicket of Blades.

If you occaisionally trip people but don't want to spend two feats for Improved Trip, there's Martial Study (Mighty Throw). If you take that, there are several cool Setting Sun options to follow it up with: Baffling Defense or Shifting Defense especially. (The latter is crazy-powerful defense, but only if you also have Combat Reflexes, so it may not be this character's thing.)

If your Jumping is excellent, you can take Claw at the Moon as a way to open up Tiger Claw. Not a fantastic maneuver at high levels. But then you could get Scent, for example, as another feat (Martial Stance (Hunter's Sense)).

Shadow Hand always has some wicked options. Move-action teleport, ostensibly nonmagical, 1/encounter? Followed by Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) to pick up some Sneak Attack?

Even simple Martial Study (Mountain Hammer) is terribly useful as a utility for breaking walls and other nonliving objects, though it's not useful in high-level combat.

Person_Man
2010-03-05, 01:51 PM
A lot of those devotion feats seem cool, but I'm not sure my DM will let me take them. He barely let me take Knowledge Devotion, and only when I made a case that, as a detective, my character's focus in life is the collection of knowledge. All the other stuff seems cool, but awfully specific. My favorite feats are the ones I can lean on encounter after encounter, day after day, not just when I'm fighting something with blindsense, or once a day, or when I have one of my seven spells per day handy, etc.

OK - no Turn Undead stuff. Then take a look at the first half of my list -
Boomerang Daze, Staggering Strike, Item Familiar, Leadership, Combat Acrobat, Quicken Spell-Like Ability, and Minor Shapeshift are all useful in pretty much every combat.


Also, as magic users are hunted in this world. Is there any sort of feat that duplicates Nystul's Aura or otherwise helps hide magic items?

Who is doing the hunting? If they're not using magic, then all you need to do is abstain from using magic items in front of people unless you intend to kill them and all potential witnesses (not that big of a deal unless you're fighting in a populated area).

If the hunters are using magic, then Nondetection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm) works against Detect Magic and most scrying. You can also get nondetection with a feat (Shape Soulmeld for Enigma Helm), but the DC to bypass it is laughably low unless you are an Incarnate.

Also, here's an interesting idea for your party - hunt the hunters. If there is some Wizard cabal that wants to monopolize power, then make it your life's goal to take them out.

Talbot
2010-03-05, 08:27 PM
OK - no Turn Undead stuff. Then take a look at the first half of my list -
Boomerang Daze, Staggering Strike, Item Familiar, Leadership, Combat Acrobat, Quicken Spell-Like Ability, and Minor Shapeshift are all useful in pretty much every combat.



Item Familiar and Leadership were both torpedoed by my DM (or at least strongly discouraged... I had originally planned on taking Leadership, and even rolled up my Cohort, but no... also, I'm a little wary of feats that can be essentially taken away from me if my cohort dies/item is stolen/sundered/lost), Staggering Strike is interesting but it depends on whether my DM takes the wording as "damage dealt" or "damage dealt specifically by the sneak attack dice". Quicken SLA is kind of ok, but it's dependent on my DM letting Arcane Dilettante count as the SLA, not each individual spell, otherwise it's just a once per day Quicken (which I can basically do for 3 inspiration points anyways, as often as I want). Not familiar with Combat Acrobat, Minor Shapeshift (sounds a little overtly magical for this setting, though, and I think Reserve Feats specifically require actual spells, not SLAs), or Boomerang Daze.




Who is doing the hunting? If they're not using magic, then all you need to do is abstain from using magic items in front of people unless you intend to kill them and all potential witnesses (not that big of a deal unless you're fighting in a populated area).

If the hunters are using magic, then Nondetection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm) works against Detect Magic and most scrying. You can also get nondetection with a feat (Shape Soulmeld for Enigma Helm), but the DC to bypass it is laughably low unless you are an Incarnate.

Also, here's an interesting idea for your party - hunt the hunters. If there is some Wizard cabal that wants to monopolize power, then make it your life's goal to take them out.

Arcane Magic is a big no-no, both culturally and legally. Divine Magic is still reasonably common. Magic Items not carried by members of the correct churches/governments are also a no no. And yeah, I can kill all the witnesses...except that I'm Neutral Good. The Hunters are a bit too numerous to hunt, but we are trying to maneuver (some through politics, others through espionage and blackmail) to change the policy on arcane magic.

faceroll
2010-03-05, 08:36 PM
Invisible Spell metamagic feat to get away with your SLAs more often?

Talbot
2010-03-05, 08:39 PM
Invisible Spell metamagic feat to get away with your SLAs more often?

As I mentioned above, I'm considering that (as well as Still and Silent), but it seems like I need all three of them to really conceal it. I was also thinking about the skill trick that lets me cover up spellcasting+invisible spell... but I have a lot of skills that need love, and only so many skill points.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-05, 08:48 PM
I'm not even sure you'd need Still Spell, since none of your SLAs incur arcane spell failure.

If you take mostly spells that have divine counterparts (which is a lot, given domains), you can cast in the open and not worry about it. Just say you're a shaman or adept or something.

Also, take Craft Wand and Craft Wondrous Item, make wands that are utilitarian and useful for doing Good Deeds, and wear the wondrous items under your clothes (to block LoE for detect magic). If you're caught casting from a wand, they can't say much if you're saving other peoples' lives and such.

If they do so anyway, they're obviously evil, and need to be destroyed.

Talbot
2010-03-06, 02:22 AM
Also, take Craft Wand and Craft Wondrous Item, make wands that are utilitarian and useful for doing Good Deeds, and wear the wondrous items under your clothes (to block LoE for detect magic). If you're caught casting from a wand, they can't say much if you're saving other peoples' lives and such.

If they do so anyway, they're obviously evil, and need to be destroyed.

Hmm. I've never really messed around much with wands before (spending cash and XP on something expendable always struck me as wasteful), or really crafting in general. According to the SRD, the cost of crafting wondrous items is 1/50th the normal cost, +1/25 the cost in exp and 1/1000 the cost in days... although I may be reading it wrong, and it's 1/2 the normal cost in gp... which is it? One is (obviously) much more appealing than the other...

What would the rough cost/xp expenditure be on a bracelet or something that had a permanent Nystul's Magic Aura over me and my gear?

Edit: Currently leaning towards two of the following three:

Insightful Reflexes: Even though I have decent Dex, I do love the idea that every time I pump up my Int it boosts my AC, HP, Initiative, more than half of my skills, my Will, and my Reflex. Just seems cost-effective.

Craft Wondrous Item: ESPECIALLY if it's 1/50th the cost in gold (plus exp), but possibly even if it's only half. Can somebody clear that up for me please?

Staggering Strike: If my DM reads it as "Damage dealt", not "damage dealt by the sneak attack specifically".