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TaintedLight
2010-03-04, 03:00 AM
I've been looking through Dragon Magic recently and the Dragonfire Adept caught my eye as a very neat, fun looking class. I asked my DM if I could play one in an upcoming campaign and he said yes. For reference, the campaign starts at level 15.

The problem is that he doesn't believe that I can qualify for feats like Flyby Attack or Strafing Breath even though the draconic Dark invocation Greater Draconic Flight gives a fly speed. Is there any official ruling or some source I can point to that would set it straight? I've seen a TON of DFA builds that use those feats and I'd like to know how they did it, considering many of them don't have racial wings or anything.

Eldariel
2010-03-04, 03:05 AM
I've been looking through Dragon Magic recently and the Dragonfire Adept caught my eye as a very neat, fun looking class. I asked my DM if I could play one in an upcoming campaign and he said yes. For reference, the campaign starts at level 15.

The problem is that he doesn't believe that I can qualify for feats like Flyby Attack or Strafing Breath even though the draconic Dark invocation Greater Draconic Flight gives a fly speed. Is there any official ruling or some source I can point to that would set it straight? I've seen a TON of DFA builds that use those feats and I'd like to know how they did it, considering many of them don't have racial wings or anything.

There's no FAQ as far as I know, but common sense says that if you are capable of flying 24/7, you can practice things that require flight and thus can pick said feats and use them while flying. If all else fails, go Dragonborn of Bahamut and pick the Wings-aspect...though since you want the Heart-aspect to qualify for Metabreath feats anyways, that'd be slightly subpar (not to mention, kinda sucks to waste such a wonderful option just to fly when you can do it with your class powers anyways).

Math_Mage
2010-03-04, 03:43 AM
Building to level 15? That makes things easy. Your character took Draconic Flight at level 6, then swapped it out for something else at level 11 when taking Greater Draconic Flight. Since you have a flight speed from level 6, you can take up to 4 flying feats. RAW doesn't have any requirements about how you obtained your flight speed, and RAI dictates that someone who can fly all the time should be able to learn to fly better.

TaintedLight
2010-03-04, 03:48 AM
Building to level 15? That makes things easy. Your character took Draconic Flight at level 6, then swapped it out for something else at level 11 when taking Greater Draconic Flight. Since you have a flight speed from level 6, you can take up to 4 flying feats. RAW doesn't have any requirements about how you obtained your flight speed, and RAI dictates that someone who can fly all the time should be able to learn to fly better.

That's pretty much how I read it too. The problem is that this DM is telling me magical effects like fly spells and rings of evasion (and he calls the ring a more "permanent" source of evasion than my invocation is a source of flight speed) do not qualify characters to take feats like that.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-04, 03:51 AM
If you're worried about a flight speed, see if you can play a raptoran (RoW), and use that invocation known on something else. Air Mephlings (Planar Handbook) while a LA+1 race, also have a racial fly speed, though it's not really that impressive.

Dexam
2010-03-04, 03:53 AM
Flyby Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#flybyAttack) merely states "Fly speed" as a prerequisite - it doesn't state that this has to be a natural fly speed (as opposed to an Extraordinary, Spell-like, Psi-like, or Supernatural ability).

Like all feats, if you lose any or all of the prerequisites you can no longer benefit from the feat. Thus, if your character is not using the Draconic Flight or Greater Draconic Flight invocation (i.e. it's been Dispelled or you just haven't activated it), you can't use the feat(s) that have "Fly speed" as a prerequisite - it's that simple.

Akal Saris
2010-03-04, 03:54 AM
Just a suggestion, but be evil (or at least not good) - Fivefold Breath of Tiamat is a wonderful, wonderful ability that completely outshines Bahamut's Breath, and you get it at 15th. It literally quintuples your damage every other round.

As others have said, if your class grants you a fly speed and it lasts 24 hours and can be renewed as a standard action if dispelled, then for all purposes you should have enough experience flying to justify taking the feat. Metabreath feats are another issue, however, since they rely on waiting 1d4 rounds before breathing again, a recharge time that DFA's don't naturally have.

The Handbook for DFAs (http://coboard.wikia.com/wiki/The_New_Dragonfire_Adept_Handbook!)

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-04, 04:12 AM
There's no FAQ as far as I know, but common sense says that if you are capable of flying 24/7, you can practice things that require flight and thus can pick said feats and use them while flying. If all else fails, go Dragonborn of Bahamut and pick the Wings-aspect...though since you want the Heart-aspect to qualify for Metabreath feats anyways, that'd be slightly subpar (not to mention, kinda sucks to waste such a wonderful option just to fly when you can do it with your class powers anyways).


Building to level 15? That makes things easy. Your character took Draconic Flight at level 6, then swapped it out for something else at level 11 when taking Greater Draconic Flight. Since you have a flight speed from level 6, you can take up to 4 flying feats. RAW doesn't have any requirements about how you obtained your flight speed, and RAI dictates that someone who can fly all the time should be able to learn to fly better.



As others have said, if your class grants you a fly speed and it lasts 24 hours and can be renewed as a standard action if dispelled, then for all purposes you should have enough experience flying to justify taking the feat. Metabreath feats are another issue, however, since they rely on waiting 1d4 rounds before breathing again, a recharge time that DFA's don't naturally have.


To further confirm this, I remember that in FAQs (ELH ones, IIRC) was stated that a continuos buff like those from items like bracers of stenght can qualify you for feats, but you lose temporarily the feats if you lose temporarily the item bonus.

I think one should use the same logic with the DA fly (and it's even better, because if you don't fly because your SLA is dispelled, you don't care to qualify for flying feats).

Finally, Akal Saris: the breath of tiamat is awesome, but IMHO an at will disintegrate could be more useful, if your party has enough damage output. Think about a fight with several Juggernauts..

Math_Mage
2010-03-04, 04:47 AM
Finally, Akal Saris: the breath of tiamat is awesome, but IMHO an at will disintegrate could be more useful, if your party has enough damage output. Think about a fight with several Juggernauts..

This would be true if Discorporating Breath of Bahamut actually did that, but the only part it replicates is the part where a creature dropped below 0 hp turns to dust. It does not replicate the damage effect (though it doubles damage dealt by the breath weapon), and explicitly states that objects are not destroyed the way they are by disintegrate. Hence, you get a double-damage line breath, with a flavorful dust effect. Fivefold Breath of Tiamat is strictly better--deals damage in a cone, and more of it. As far as I can tell, you can direct each of the five different breath weapons in different directions (since it only says "you create five different breath weapons simultaneously"), so it's more versatile as well.

Whichever one you choose, if you plan to use it a lot, get Draconic Toughness as a Greater Invocation so you can cope with the damage dealt to yourself (if you're either good or evil, that lets you halve the damage).

TaintedLight
2010-03-04, 05:00 AM
To further confirm this, I remember that in FAQs (ELH ones, IIRC) was stated that a continuos buff like those from items like bracers of stenght can qualify you for feats, but you lose temporarily the feats if you lose temporarily the item bonus.

I think one should use the same logic with the DA fly (and it's even better, because if you don't fly because your SLA is dispelled, you don't care to qualify for flying feats).

Finally, Akal Saris: the breath of tiamat is awesome, but IMHO an at will disintegrate could be more useful, if your party has enough damage output. Think about a fight with several Juggernauts..

Could anyone point me to the errata that says this? That would be the proof I need that this works.

Also, I've taken FFBoT. So much damage with Maximize Su...

Math_Mage
2010-03-04, 06:13 AM
Could anyone point me to the errata that says this? That would be the proof I need that this works.

Also, I've taken FFBoT. So much damage with Maximize Su...

From the Epic Level Handbook FAQ (http://attach3.bdwm.net/attach/boards/FantasyWorld/M.1259290498.A/d&d%203rd%20edition%20epic%20level%20handbook%20faq. pdf), page 4:


Many epic feats have ability scores of 25+ as
prerequisites, for example Epic Endurance has a
prerequisite of Constitution 25+ and the Endurance feat.
Is that base or with magic items? If a character has a
Constitution score of 21, a +4 amulet of health, and the
Endurance feat, does that meet the prerequisite?
Yes. Always use your current ability score (no matter how
you managed to get it) to determine if you qualify for any
feat. Keep in mind that you cannot use a feat if you no longer
meet the prerequisites (which may happen if you lose the
item you’re depending on to meet a prerequisite).

This doesn't specifically apply to your situation, but the general principle that it is your current ability, and not your theoretical ability without spells/items/feats(/invocations), that determines whether or not you satisfy prerequisites.

Also, I'm looking, and I can't find a feat named Maximize Supernatural Ability, or any equivalent. There is a Maximize Breath feat, but metabreath feats require a breath weapon with a recharging time measured in rounds, so a DFA doesn't qualify. Of course, there are exceptions, which are described in the New Dragonfire Adept Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870954/The_New_Dragonfire_Adept_Handbook).

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-04, 06:21 AM
This would be true if Discorporating Breath of Bahamut actually did that, but the only part it replicates is the part where a creature dropped below 0 hp turns to dust. It does not replicate the damage effect (though it doubles damage dealt by the breath weapon), and explicitly states that objects are not destroyed the way they are by disintegrate. Hence, you get a double-damage line breath, with a flavorful dust effect. Fivefold Breath of Tiamat is strictly better--deals damage in a cone, and more of it. As far as I can tell, you can direct each of the five different breath weapons in different directions (since it only says "you create five different breath weapons simultaneously"), so it's more versatile as well.


Caught.. I was thinking to some overlook or house rule.. I retire my statement.



In ToM you can find Elnarge, Winden, Extend and Empower Supernatural Ability, but not Maximize.

TaintedLight
2010-03-04, 06:21 AM
From the Epic Level Handbook FAQ (http://attach3.bdwm.net/attach/boards/FantasyWorld/M.1259290498.A/d&d%203rd%20edition%20epic%20level%20handbook%20faq. pdf), page 4:



This doesn't specifically apply to your situation, but the general principle that it is your current ability, and not your theoretical ability without spells/items/feats(/invocations), that determines whether or not you satisfy prerequisites.

Also, I'm looking, and I can't find a feat named Maximize Supernatural Ability, or any equivalent. There is a Maximize Breath feat, but metabreath feats require a breath weapon with a recharging time measured in rounds, so a DFA doesn't qualify. Of course, there are exceptions, which are described in the New Dragonfire Adept Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870954/The_New_Dragonfire_Adept_Handbook).

Thanks much for the citation, that should do the trick!

The Maximize Su ability is from the Tome of Magic. The Pact Magic section specifically, though the feat can in theory be applied to any Su ability.

EDIT: Whoops, that's Empower Su. My bad :smallbiggrin:.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-04, 08:55 AM
There's no FAQ as far as I know, but common sense says that if you are capable of flying 24/7, you can practice things that require flight and thus can pick said feats and use them while flying. If all else fails, go Dragonborn of Bahamut and pick the Wings-aspect...though since you want the Heart-aspect to qualify for Metabreath feats anyways, that'd be slightly subpar (not to mention, kinda sucks to waste such a wonderful option just to fly when you can do it with your class powers anyways).

Or get both via Dragonborn Raptorian. Dragonborn specifically keep alternate movement forms.

Eldariel
2010-03-04, 09:07 AM
Or get both via Dragonborn Raptorian. Dragonborn specifically keep alternate movement forms.

It's a bit more complex than that since Raptorans don't actually get flight off the bat, but a series of racial abilities that eventually give them flight; as racials are lost, it's kinda gray zone (though common sense would obviously dictate that yes, a draconic birdman with wings can fly).

The Random NPC
2010-03-04, 10:08 AM
Not sure if this helps, but there is the feat Improved Flight from the Complete Adventurer, it increases flying maneuverability by one step. The prerequisite is ablity to fly, naturally, magically, or by shapechanging.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-04, 12:56 PM
It's a bit more complex than that since Raptorans don't actually get flight off the bat, but a series of racial abilities that eventually give them flight; as racials are lost, it's kinda gray zone (though common sense would obviously dictate that yes, a draconic birdman with wings can fly).

They get a Glide speed. RAW, any alternate movement modes are retained when turning into a Dragonborn.

Draz74
2010-03-04, 01:05 PM
For what it's worth, I actually like Discorporating Breath of Bahamut better than Fivefold Breath of Tiamat:

DBoB is untyped damage, whereas something with several energy resistances (like many Outsiders) will get to resist FfBoT's damage several times.
DBoB is a Fortitude save, while FfBoT is a bunch of Reflex saves. So if a target has Evasion, he might come through FfBoT totally unscathed, which really sucks. (On the other hand, it means Undead and Constructs, by RAW, are immune to DBoB. :smallannoyed:)
FfBoT carries a restriction against using any breath weapon on the following round. DBoB has no such restriction. (Whether this is a big deal depends how many other worthwhile standard actions your DFA has, like UMD or Terrifying Roar.)

Sure, even with all that, FfBoT is still more powerful overall. But not by much.

tyckspoon
2010-03-04, 01:08 PM
DBoB is a Fortitude save, while FfBoT is a bunch of Reflex saves. So if a target has Evasion, he might come through FfBoT totally unscathed, which really sucks. (On the other hand, it means Undead and Constructs, by RAW, are immune to DBoB. :smallannoyed:)


Objects are not immune to taking damage. Undead and Constructs can be smacked around with Bahamut's Force Disintegration just fine.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-04, 01:22 PM
For what it's worth, I actually like Discorporating Breath of Bahamut better than Fivefold Breath of Tiamat:

DBoB is untyped damage, whereas something with several energy resistances (like many Outsiders) will get to resist FfBoT's damage several times.
DBoB is a Fortitude save, while FfBoT is a bunch of Reflex saves. So if a target has Evasion, he might come through FfBoT totally unscathed, which really sucks. (On the other hand, it means Undead and Constructs, by RAW, are immune to DBoB. :smallannoyed:)
FfBoT carries a restriction against using any breath weapon on the following round. DBoB has no such restriction. (Whether this is a big deal depends how many other worthwhile standard actions your DFA has, like UMD or Terrifying Roar.)

Sure, even with all that, FfBoT is still more powerful overall. But not by much.

FFBoT+Clinging Breath+Empower Breath+Empower Supernatural Ability (ToM)=Death unless they are outright immune to all 4 energy types being used (and there isn't that much in DnD that is immune to Fire, Cold, Acid, and Electricity at the same time).

Draz74
2010-03-04, 01:36 PM
Objects are not immune to taking damage. Undead and Constructs can be smacked around with Bahamut's Force Disintegration just fine.
I really wish I could say, "Oh, my bad, you're right!" But Discorporating Breath of Bahamut actually says "this breath effect has no effect on objects," so, although I'm sure it's not what the writers intended, it can't hurt Undead or Constructs either. :smallfurious:


FFBoT+Clinging Breath+Empower Breath+Empower Supernatural Ability (ToM)=Death unless they are outright immune to all 4 energy types being used (and there isn't that much in DnD that is immune to Fire, Cold, Acid, and Electricity at the same time).

Yeah, that's true. But now you're talking about half a build, not just FfBoT. And, more to the point, a lot of those same things will die just as well to DBoB + Clinging Breath + Empower Breath + Empower Supernatural Ability. :smallwink:

And personally, I'll always consider Empower Supernatural Ability to be a waste of a feat because of the 1/day restriction.

tyckspoon
2010-03-04, 01:41 PM
I really wish I could say, "Oh, my bad, you're right!" But Discorporating Breath of Bahamut actually says "this breath effect has no effect on objects," so, although I'm sure it's not what the writers intended, it can't hurt Undead or Constructs either. :smallfurious:


Bah! Bahamut's Force Disintegrate is now errata'd! It works on objects! Also its renamed! :smalltongue:

(It's been a while since I managed to dig up my copy of Dragon Magic to actually reference the class. Forgetting senseless technicalities is to be expected.)

Tyndmyr
2010-03-04, 01:46 PM
That's pretty much how I read it too. The problem is that this DM is telling me magical effects like fly spells and rings of evasion (and he calls the ring a more "permanent" source of evasion than my invocation is a source of flight speed) do not qualify characters to take feats like that.

Raw wise, he is wrong. However, if you lose the prerequisite, you then lose the use of anything that depends on that prerequisite.

Thus, while you CAN rely on items to make character builds possible, it makes your character heavily reliant upon those items, so it's generally disliked in builds if it can be avoided.

Draz74
2010-03-04, 01:46 PM
(It's been a while since I managed to dig up my copy of Dragon Magic to actually reference the class. Forgetting senseless technicalities is to be expected.)

Well, I don't even own the book :smalltongue: but you can always look here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=3).

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-04, 01:59 PM
And personally, I'll always consider Empower Supernatural Ability to be a waste of a feat because of the 1/day restriction.

I said the same thing about the TAG Rifle in Unreal Championship. But when you absolutely have to kill every MoFo in line of sight...

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-04, 02:09 PM
Racially, I suggest Raptoran (0La that can fly @ 6th lv) and Aarakocra (yet another 0la that can fly racially)

if that isn't your taste, then I suggest asap, take Draconic Wings, Improved Draconic Wings, feats from Races of Dragon, and take a dragonic PrC

Greenish
2010-03-04, 02:10 PM
Racially, I suggest Raptoran (0La that can fly @ 6th lv) and Aarakocra (yet another 0la that can fly racially)

if that isn't your taste, then I suggest asap, take Draconic Wings, Improved Draconic Wings, feats from Races of Dragon, and take a dragonic PrCHe can fly, that's not the issue.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-04, 02:12 PM
He can fly, that's not the issue.

oh. I still highly reccomend Aarakocra. 90 ft/round flight speed?! Sexy. just plain sexy

TaintedLight
2010-03-04, 04:27 PM
Not sure if this helps, but there is the feat Improved Flight from the Complete Adventurer, it increases flying maneuverability by one step. The prerequisite is ablity to fly, naturally, magically, or by shapechanging.

This should help. Thanks for the reference!

Also, while there are quite a few ways for me to get a pair of wings racially, the character is human, non-negotiably. It's a story element that can't be circumvented here.

BenTheJester
2010-03-04, 05:06 PM
Not sure if this helps, but there is the feat Improved Flight from the Complete Adventurer, it increases flying maneuverability by one step. The prerequisite is ablity to fly, naturally, magically, or by shapechanging.

Ewww don't take that feat. Buy the Pectoral of Maneuverability(that's how it's called IIRC) fo 12k instead

Draz74
2010-03-04, 05:11 PM
Ewww don't take that feat. Buy the Pectoral of Maneuverability(that's how it's called IIRC) fo 12k instead

Or both. They stack, so you can get up to Perfect Maneuverability. :smallbiggrin: