Where to Move... in Five Years

[Boo]

Five-and-a-half really.

I need some help in consideration of where to move. I'm eighteen now and I plan to leave Canada by the age of twenty-four. I might change my mind within that time, but it pays to plan ahead. For now I'm just going to save up my money (hopefully reach $100 000 or more) so I can start off fresh in a new country.

I'm unsure of where to go right now (I have an idea, but not much knowledge). I'd like to go to a place with a warm climate, but cold doesn't bother me (as long as it's not always below 10ºC). I don't want to move to America. There's nothing wrong with it, but I just don't want to. Australia is just too badass for me, so that's also out of the question. I have no legal reasons for wanting to move, although I do have worries about citizenship/residence in other countries for when I do. Not only that, but if a country has an economy that knocks my wallet to the floor and does things to it that I've only ever seen in Pulp Fiction... yeah, I wouldn't like to live there.

I don't know if I'm at all clear, so I'll just help this along by listing what I'm looking for in a country...

- great nature and architecture
- has cool ruins that don't require permission to enter (personally important)
- as little racism as possible (this is more specific to "location within a nation")
- women are equal citizens with little prejudice against/from them
- freedom of speech similar to North America (don't discuss; keep in mind)
- less crime is better
- not too expensive to reside in
- not impossible to receive citizenship/residence (I'm not going to bend over backwards, but I'll work and live there for ten or so years)
- A country that knows English to some degree would be nice (it doesn't have to be a first language)

Right now I'm considering moving to Thailand. It's close to several countries that'd I'd be very interested in visiting (Cambodia, Malaysia, Burma, China...), and it has a very nice look about it (culturally, architecturally, naturally, etc). Admittedly I haven't done nearly enough research to know for sure if it's the best choice. For instance: I have no clue how citizenship is gained.


I hope that all helps you help me. >> I've sort of been pondering on this for a few years, but only recently have I really thought about it. Before I was all "Ehh, maybe I'll just move to Vancouver. I liked my visit there, I know cool people there, and I could fly back to Toronto every now and then to see my old friends."


EDIT: Wow this is long... TL;DR: Thinking of moving outside of North America. I need suggestions.

[Dallas-Dakota]

How about England?:smallwink::smalltongue:

[Emperor Ing]

What about the US? Montana in particular. :smalltongue:

Sorry, I don't believe we have much in the way of ruins.

[Deth Muncher]

What about the US? Montana in particular. :smalltongue:

Sorry, I don't believe we have much in the way of ruins.

Montana's a great place if you want huckleberries and buffalo. And mountains. And no tax. However, you want outside of NA.

I WOULD have suggested Ireland, but the cost of living there is horrid. Cool ruins though.

Hm...you could always try Eastern Europe somewhere? Belguim, perhaps, or Germany? I'm not so familiar with them, but I do know that both teach English in school to their children, so you'll at least be able to talk to them.

[Anuan]

Australia.

That is all.

[Boo]

Well, English isn't a high priority since I'm not moving immediately (thus have time to study the language).

And yes, outside of North America. That's what I said in the big wall of text that maybe three more people will read.

@^: Firstly: Ninja. Secondly: I am moderately afraid of spiders. When I hear about spiders from Australia I wet myself three times, and five times after that.

[UnChosenOne]

Move to Sweden. It should fill all of those parts of your list and -well- unlike around here you don't need to learn non-Indoeuropean laguange.

[Serpentine]

Gotta ixnay the Straliaya, based on the criteria:

- great nature and architecture: Sure, not really (though it depends what you like)
- has cool ruins that don't require permission to enter (personally important): nothing terribly old or interesting.
- as little racism as possible (this is more specific to "location within a nation"): Nyet, though not too extreme and changing.
- women are equal citizens with little prejudice against/from them: Yes, but still beglass-ceilinged.
- freedom of speech similar to North America (don't discuss; keep in mind): No Bill of Rights and I think not constitutionally enshrined, but heaven help the polly that tries to prevent it.
- less crime is better: Don't think we have too much, though we do have a history of weird killings.
- not too expensive to reside in: Depends where you go, I think on the whole not too bad.
- not impossible to receive citizenship/residence (I'm not going to bend over backwards, but I'll work and live there for ten or so years): Hard, though you're a (I presume) white, middle-classish male USofAmerican, so you probably won't have too much trouble.
- A country that knows English to some degree would be nice (it doesn't have to be a first language): Yeah.

On spiders: Could be a problem, but probably not as much as you think. Basically, as long as you take care to not poke around places and keep your home clean and tidy, you should be fine. Invest in a dish and a flat, firm surface, and you'll be able to deal with huntsmen fine.

[Brewdude]

My friend, you need to do the good old fashioned euro trip. The problem you are going to run into in many countries is that there isn't a job you'd want to do there for 10 years that pays anywhere close to what you can get back home.

Canada's dollar was doing pretty good last time i checked, so your bankroll should be good. Also note that the different states in America can be very different when you get down to living in them, even regions within states can be completely different. Texas has a completely different flavor than California, but Austin Texas is different still, as is Orange county in California.

If Thailand is an option, be sure to consider the Philippines and Singapore. Just be aware that just about every country's drug laws are more strict than Canada's if you swing that way.

[Boo]

Despite me living by the gold deposits of Texada (pot joke) I do not do any drugs. I tried it and it wasn't very fun (and I was doing it right).

I should be okay job-wise in any country if all goes according to plan. My career choice is in the direction of pathology, but directing is where the heart is. People die, right? I'm not going to run into a perfect country, right? Okay, now I look like I'm hoping for crime (I'm not). Looking at mummies would be cool however...

To be honest, I don't actually care about money. I'm more for enjoying myself even if I have to work my whole life (I kinda want to, but not in a 9-5 sort of way).

As for the Euro trip... I'll probably spend a month travelling before finally deciding on where I'd want to live. I'd go from one end of Asia to... Italy, let's say. South America is another viable option...

Sorry, I sort of answered that backwards. :smalltongue:

@ Serp: I kinda already knew about "how to survive in urban Australia", but... living is a big no since I'm not much of a clean fellow (I'm hygienic, but housekeeping is not my specialty). In addition, due to my phobia, I'd be incredibly paranoid while going through my residence. I'd never buy a house in Australia because of this since it would be all the worse. An apartment high up would calm me down, but I'd never open the windows.

Isn't it strange how I'm afraid of all this yet I could go out into a jungle filled with dangerous things (including spiders)? I'm mostly afraid of being attacked by a spider when vulnerable/unaware of it's presence. Being ambushed I guess.

[lostlittlebear]

Heck, come to Singapore!

Pros:
- a few decent nature reserves
- great architecture
- almost no crime
- universal English Literacy
- fiercely protected gender and racial equality
- easy citizenship application processes
- favourable exchange rate
- easy access to every country in Asia
- great public transport system

Cons:
- Freedom of Speech (if you want a greater explanation on how this works, PM me and I'd be glad to explain - not sure if it constitutes politics so I shan't discuss it on the thread)
- Not many ancient ruins
- Heavily Urbanized (if you're a rural sort of guy)

[Ashen Lilies]

Considering you're considering considering Thailand, I thought I'd help out here.



- great nature and architecture But of course.
- has cool ruins that don't require permission to enter (personally important) Depends on your definition of 'permission'. Most major ruins nowadays will have a toll to enter. As a foreigner, you will be charged twice as much. Get used to it.
- as little racism as possible (this is more specific to "location within a nation") White man is welcome (for a little extra), Burmese people, however, are second-class citizens.
- women are equal citizens with little prejudice against/from them Pretty equal.
- freedom of speech similar to North America (don't discuss; keep in mind) No. Ish. Whatever you do, say nothing but praise for the Royal Family, and do not pry into [scrubbed]
- less crime is better Depends where you live, of course. Our house-for-living has never been robbed. Our house-for-renting-out has been robbed thrice.
- not too expensive to reside in Very cheap, by Western StandardsTM
- not impossible to receive citizenship/residence (I'm not going to bend over backwards, but I'll work and live there for ten or so years) Citizenship? Somewhat difficult. You need to be exceptionally fluent in the language, and have lived there for quite a while. Residence is easier with a work visa, though bear in mind you can't legally own houses/land.
- A country that knows English to some degree would be nice (it doesn't have to be a first language) In urban areas, most people know English to some (small) degree, but as you get more rural they're much harder to find.


Bear in mind that above information comes from a socially inept teenager who doesn't leave the house much and doesn't have much of a clue as to how the world works. Yes... growing up is an exciting prospect. :smallsigh:

[Amiel]

Heck, come to Singapore!
Snip


Great airlines
Pretty multicultural
Nice climate; but very warm all year round, no distinctive seasons, very humid

[Yora]

What came to my mind first is Italy. But I asume spain is also quite similar (if you're not a native and don't know either country extremely well :smallwink: ).

[Boo]

*response*

I kinda put that beside Malaysia, but I'm pretty sure Malaysia's harder to get into considering that I won't be allowed duel-citizenship. I don't mind urban settings, but I would like a rural setting nearby at least. Some amount of nature, y'know?

(*looks up on Wikipedia* First impression: Las Vegas?)


*response*

1. Yay!
2. "Damn foreigners steppin' all over our heritage... They oughta pay TWICE as much to do that!" I don't like paying to see history. This is why I don't like some museums. >>
3. D=
4. Yay! It wasn't really important, but Yay!
5. Meh. I won't hate on 'em 'cause I'll probably keep my distance from the politics of the nation (what with the political stuff that goes on from time to time).
6. Eh... as long as I keep to cheap things I should be okay then.
7. Yay...? The tm confused me.
8. Huh... so my mum was right. She was there twenty or so years ago and it hasn't changed much.
9. I read that on Wikipedia. =3 Aren't I da smerdesd?

@Italy/Spain: Dunno. Italy has amazing stuff, and so does Spain (way to generalise two countries, Boo). I'd probably lean more towards Italy if only because they have Fabrica...

[KuReshtin]

I'd second Sweden.
It's gor lots of nice cultrue stuff and great scenery and outdoorsy stuff, and then there's the 'allemanrätt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam#Sweden)', which means that you're free to go pretty much anywhere you want, as long as you don't make a bloody mess while doing it.

[Syka]

I'd investigate areas closely before going, particularly for human rights issues. I just recently heard about an issue with Thailand and imprisonment of refugees for no other reason than "we can" (or at least no reason has been said), along with this Wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Thailand).


Personally, I've considered moving to Italy or France when I get a chance. You're unlikely to be able to just wander into their national treasures (ie, the ruins and old buildings), but there is usually access if I'm not mistaken. There's plenty of stuff you can see for free and, heck, LIVE in. The climate in Italy and France is about that of the NE US, also if I'm not mistaken.

It's not exactly easy to immigrate, but if you can get a work visa you can stay. I know there have been some racial issues between migrant workers and citizens in S. Italy, but I think overall that situation is OK.




But just research heavily before moving to a foreign country, particularly one in a volatile part of the world.

[purple gelatinous cube o' Doom]

I would keep in mind that if you're going to be traveling for an extended period of time, that you will be required to have a visa. Just picking up and going, is not a good idea and possibly could get you into a whole lot of trouble.

[Boo]

"Exercising of the rights is overseen by the Swedish National Environmental Protection Agency – which can, for example, force the removal of a fence if it obstructs people's right to enter the property under the 'Everyman's Right'"

I lolled at this. It makes sense in context, but I still laughed from how I imagined the situation.

"This fence prevents me from entering your house!"
"It's a gate."
"Remove it!"

...well now it's not as funny.



I think I'll just compile a list of places to visit before choosing. Let's see...

Singapore
Thailand (with my family)
Sweden
Italy
Spain


I'm trying to stay within a good budget, so I won't be going wild. This trip will probably take place in 2014, a year before I leave. England is pretty expensive, so I probably won't visit unless someone says "Hey, you can stay at my place!" which would be awesome. Actually, it would be more awesome if I could stay at people's houses instead of semi-expensive hotels.


@ worried folk: Getting a work/student visa is my main plan. Student visas wont get me citizenship (I'm pretty sure they wont), but they'll get me on my way.

I don't mind having to ask to enter old architecture, but I hate the prospect of having to pay. It's not a big deal, but I'd feel robbed (especially in Thailand thanks to KK's words :smalltongue:).

As for researching countries, I know that part and the importance of such a thing. Thailand was researched before, but I didn't really see a definite problem with anything that I saw (well, not anything that would hurt me specifically). Wherever I judge to live, I'll have a year to look into it.

We're really skirting politics... >> I really hope we haven't crossed any boarders.

[Fostire]

I only know about Uruguay (and even then not too much) and I don't really like it that much, but let's go to through the checklist (just for fun):


- great nature and architecture Nature-wise the most impressive thing in Uruguay is the variety of birds (the name Uruguay means river of painted birds) so if you're into bird-watching it's pretty great. Other than that I've never been too impressed with Uruguay's nature.
On the architecture department you can find some pretty good stuff; our legislative palace is one of the most impressive buildings I've seen.

- has cool ruins that don't require permission to enter (personally important) Depends of what kinds of ruins you are looking for. Since the only natives in Uruguay were nomads there aren't much of those around, but there are some ruins in Argentina which you should be able to get to easily (although I didn't find them that impressive/interesting).
There's also the ruins from the old colonial cities which are part of the current cities now so you can obviously get to those without any permission needed.

- as little racism as possible (this is more specific to "location within a nation") There isn't much racism but this is mostly due to the fact that there isn't much racial variety (vast majority is white)

- women are equal citizens with little prejudice against/from them I think this applies to Uruguay.

- freedom of speech similar to North America (don't discuss; keep in mind) Check

- less crime is better umm... then you should probably go to Uruguay about 10 years ago (There was so little crime back then that I could literally sleep with my front door open). Right now crime is pretty high.

- not too expensive to reside in I'm not sure about this, I think it's not expensive but I don't know how do you measure this.

- not impossible to receive citizenship/residence (I'm not going to bend over backwards, but I'll work and live there for ten or so years) No idea here. I'm technically a natural born citizen (even though I was born in Canada) because my parents are both Uruguayans but even though the law says I'm exactly the same as any other citizen I still had to jump through hoops to be allowed to vote.

- A country that knows English to some degree would be nice (it doesn't have to be a first language) most people know some english, but it's probably best if you learn spanish obviously (and if someone asks, make it clear you're Canadian and NOT american)

All in all, it's not that great a place to live in, but it's pretty nice if you're just around for a vacation.

[Redpieper]

Hm...you could always try Eastern Europe somewhere? Belguim, perhaps, or Germany? I'm not so familiar with them, but I do know that both teach English in school to their children, so you'll at least be able to talk to them.

Wait, Belgium and Germany are eastern europe now? :smallconfused:

[Fri]

Since you mentioned Malaysia but not Indonesia, I'm compulsed to suggest it. It's just our relationship is slightly similar to Canada and US, we hate it when someone mentioned Malaysia and not Indonesia :smallbiggrin:

this blog chronicled the transformation of an american into an indonesian. You can read it from the beginning to witness it...

http://kopisusu2.blogspot.com/

(Why do you mention Malaysia and not Indonesia by the way? Are you afraid of the bombs :smallamused:?)

[Asta Kask]

Sweden. I'll bake you a cake.

[purple gelatinous cube o' Doom]

@ worried folk: Getting a work/student visa is my main plan. Student visas wont get me citizenship (I'm pretty sure they wont), but they'll get me on my way.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I see that as being a difficult thing for you. Since you presumably will be out of school at that time, getting a student visa is probably going to be hard since I believe you actually need to be enrolled in a school/on study abroad to get one. As for the work visa, you mentioned not wanting to have a job while you're there, and I do believe you may have to have employment set up or get it X amount of days after you get there. Don't get me wrong, your idea is nice, but from what you've explained to us already, I see it being tough to actually get one.

[Maelstrom]

I've recently (last 8 months) moved from the US (California) to France...let me know if you want any input on it..

Got to say, loving the move!

[Jimp]

If you think England is too expensive then don't even think about Ireland :smallsigh:
It may be worth keeping in mind that a lot can change in 5 years. Don't plan too far ahead :smallwink:

[Deth Muncher]

Wait, Belgium and Germany are eastern europe now? :smallconfused:

Sorry, I was propagating my country's knack for geografailing. Carry on.

[chiasaur11]

Five years?

Let's see. The modified mad cow outbreak leaves most of the United States a bad option if you're not in the ass kicking business, so that's out.

Canada, if I remember right, would fall to the mole people by then, so unless you're a fan of maple syrup mining, staying put is out.

Hmm. Well, the glorious robot empire in Norway allows one day a year for humans to do something other than run on treadmills to power the overbrains, so that's a maybe.

Do you have your visa for the glorious floating island nation of Valveswana? Because, I gotta say, that's probably the best bet if one accounts for the fact surface nations are still suffering from the meteor strikes of 2012. The required three hours talking about how great a Valve employee of your choice is seems a small price to pay.


No, if you were talking three years in the future, this probably wouldn't be relevant.

[Don Julio Anejo]

You're looking at southern Europe. Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, south of France... Maybe not France though, it's pretty expensive and French don't like foreigners much. But Greece is awesome :smile:

Singapore I wouldn't recommend - not only is it super strict in regard to laws, but it's also really expensive and really urbanized. Basically the whole country is one big city. Chances are if you lived most of your life in Canada, you wouldn't like that.

[GolemsVoice]

Well, how about Germany?


- great nature and architecture There are many beautiful landscapes, just don't come looking for jungles, and in many regions you can't throw a brick without hitting something historical (and getting sued for that). There are many museums, but also many historical sites that can be visited free of charge, and many cities offer information for a walk through the historical parts of the town.
- has cool ruins that don't require permission to enter (personally important)See above. There won't be many undiscovered ruins waiting, and more or less no "unclaimed" ruins, but most are either free or offer a tour for little money
- as little racism as possible (this is more specific to "location within a nation") Most people won't have any problem with foreigners and be happy to help you, but you may encounter some who are a little mistrustful
- women are equal citizens with little prejudice against/from them I guess we suffer the same problems as most nations, women are still not fully equal, at least when it comes to payment, but in normal life, no problems
- freedom of speech similar to North America (don't discuss; keep in mind) Germany has an extensive press culture, and freedom of speech is part of the constitution.
- less crime is better Depends on where you go, but I think that crime is generally quite low
- not too expensive to reside in I don't think we are any more expensive than any first world western nation, but I can't really comment on this
- not impossible to receive citizenship/residence (I'm not going to bend over backwards, but I'll work and live there for ten or so years) If you're educated, from a western country and willing to work and learn, this should be a small problem, but I don't really know, of course
- A country that knows English to some degree would be nice (it doesn't have to be a first language) Every school teaches English from grade 4-5 upwards, and most Germans have at least a basic grasp of the language, so no problems here.

It's of course wildly different from countries like Thailand, so if you're more the Asian type, you won't find much here. I'd still recommend it, though. If you move near my area, you will be the subject of me wanting to talk English with someone who actually speaks it as his first language.

[Erloas]

Well seeing as how I live in an area that doesn't fit the criteria I'm going to go in a different direction.

Your plan seems to be to go to college, graduate, and move to another country with $100k that you've saved up in that time. First two work just fine, the last part not so much. Most people are lucky to get out of college with only $10-20k worth of debt and virtually nothing saved. A college graduate with a full time well paying job would be hard pressed to save up $100k in 5 years. If you aren't planning on going into college... well its even harder for a high school graduate with no experience to get a job that will allow them to save that much, maybe if you lived for free with your parents and they took care of 80% of your living expenses.
Unless of course you're family is just that well off and they are giving you a lot of money.

One thing you will probably find out is that you don't actually have to move that far to get what you want. In a country the side of Canada you'll find areas for every type of person and you can find a place you will like being without having to go 1/2 around to world. And it changes for some people but a lot of people are better off at least reasonably close to their families. If you expect to have the money to do everything you've been talking about you could more easily just live where you are now (or very close by) and take trips to visit places all over the world.
You'll probably also find that no matter where you go you will also find people there that want to leave it, and some people that would probably want to go where you are wanting to leave.

Life is really what you make of it, and it can be good or bad based on you, not where you are. If you have no idea where you want to go, just "someplace else" with a vague set of guidelines then chances are you aren't any more likely to find what you are looking for 10000 miles away as you are 500 miles.

[drakir_nosslin]

Both Sweden and Norway fits nicely, though Norway is a lot more expensive, but has more oil and you get paid a lot more. To counter, Sweden has the better girls, and not as much rain.

[Amiel]

No Australia? Then +1 China; actually, you really should come visit Australia even if you don't plan on staying.


- great nature and architecture

Hell yes; China has many UNESCO world heritage sites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Heritage_Sites_in_China); 38 in all. Despite its heavy pollution and suffocating mass of people, its natural environments are very pristine and very beautiful.


- has cool ruins that don't require permission to enter (personally important)
Definitely yes; the Great Wall, Mausoleum of the First Emperor, Magao Caves et al.


- as little racism as possible (this is more specific to "location within a nation")
China has 56 ethnicities with a large population of people from different regions around the world; Caucasians, Africans, people from the Middle East.
There may be a little racism, but the Chinese are usually polite and respectful.


- women are equal citizens with little prejudice against/from them
Sort of. It's getting progressively better. Some "traditionally minded" areas still exist, but the big cities on the whole are very socially forward.


- freedom of speech similar to North America (don't discuss; keep in mind)
No on this.


- less crime is better

Yes, despite its huge population, the crime rate is relatively low, and that's saying something.


- not too expensive to reside in

Everything is very cheap (except for maybe imports); food is inexpensive; games are inexpensive, luxury items are inexpensive


- not impossible to receive citizenship/residence (I'm not going to bend over backwards, but I'll work and live there for ten or so years)

Unsure about this.


- A country that knows English to some degree would be nice (it doesn't have to be a first language)

Well, accents are always nice :)
There's a fair bit of hilarious Engrish on some of the signages and information boards.

Hong Kong, Macao and such are similar but may have democracies as government.

[Boo]

@Erloas: Quick reply since I have to go...

Second part: I don't want to live in Canada. It's not a bad country in any way, but I just want to live elsewhere. What's with the psychology lesson? :smalltongue:

[SDF]

Switzerland is one of the hardest countries in the world to immigrate to. You have to live there for close to a decade and then they can still deny you. There are also a lot of prejudice regarding middle east immigrants. (This is also present in other European countries. YMMV best to research it yourself)

Australia has some scary big brother laws that would ever keep me from living there. I have no idea what they will look like in five years, though.

Most of the Middle East is out due to your criteria. Though, most countries with radically different cultures are going to go against your criteria unless you want to move to another westernized country.

Also, if you have a plan to save $100,000 in 5 years would you mind sharing? :smallwink:

[hap_hazard]

I kinda put that beside Malaysia, but I'm pretty sure Malaysia's harder to get into considering that I won't be allowed duel-citizenship. I don't mind urban settings, but I would like a rural setting nearby at least. Some amount of nature, y'know?


Bear in mind Singapore doesn't allow dual citizenship either. It's a nice place tho, and there's some somewhat ancient stuff hanging around.

[Serpentine]

Australia has some scary big brother laws that would ever keep me from living there. I have no idea what they will look like in five years, though.Eh? Like what? The internet laws? Honestly I don't really expect that to get through. The lack of an R rating for games? Slowly but steadily being worn down. Um... That's about all I can think of, but then I don't know what might be different elsewhere.

On Indonesia: one of my cousins lives in Bali, and another recentishly got married to an Indonesian man, has had his baby, and is building a house there (Java, I think). They both seem to love it. To return to the original criteria:
- great nature and architecture: Yes, and not sure, possibly not.
- has cool ruins that don't require permission to enter (personally important): Yes, I think. So far as I know you don't have to pay or anything to see, say Borabadur. That's the main place I know of, but I'm sure there's plenty of others.
- as little racism as possible (this is more specific to "location within a nation"): Not sure. It has its conflicts, but I think they're more internal, sorta thing, island v. island. At the very least, I've never heard anything about any particular group being discriminated against. The extremism displayed by the Bali Bombings (which my cousin was almost involved in, by the by) is very very fringe and, I believe, being stamped on pretty comprehensively. They rely on tourism to a large degree, so I think they see a lot of different sorts of people go through.
- women are equal citizens with little prejudice against/from them: Not sure, so far as I know yes.
- freedom of speech similar to North America (don't discuss; keep in mind): Not sure. They have supressed information before, but I think they're tending to loosen up a bit nowadays.
- less crime is better: Don't know.
- not too expensive to reside in: I doubt it's expensive.
- not impossible to receive citizenship/residence (I'm not going to bend over backwards, but I'll work and live there for ten or so years): Not sure, but my cousins have managed it reasonably easily, I think (I've heard more complaints about getting Apa into Australia than Jade into Indonesia).
- A country that knows English to some degree would be nice (it doesn't have to be a first language): I believe English is widely known. It's also worth pointing out that the (official) language is sort of artificial, constructed from scratch to be a national language. It's pretty easy to learn, I've found, quite simple (easy grammar, every letter has only one sound (c is always "ch"), written as pronounced, etc), borrows a lot of words from other languages, that sort of thing. I'll get you started: "Saya tidak tahu Bahasa Indonesia bagus sekali" ("I do not know very good Indonesian", literally "I no know Indonesian good very")

[Boo]

Also, if you have a plan to save $100,000 in 5 years would you mind sharing? :smallwink:

Well honestly, 100 would not be possible. I'd make around 12k to 15k per year at minimum wage working four days per week. I just said 100 because I originally looked at is as "a seven year plan with fourty hour weeks" and I didn't do the math again. >>

*does math*

About 35k to 40k would be my final saved amount in those five years (after college expense of around 25k). It's not bad at all, but it puts quite the damper on what I can afford. :smalltongue: If I were to work fourty hours every week of every year at $10/hr, five years would bring me a little over $100 000. That's being unrealistic. Seven years, like my original plan, would have been more realistic, but two extra years slows some things down for me.

With this in mind, I guess mass travelling is out of the question. Instead I'll just go to three countries. That's budget enabling and smart, right? If I only check out the three top countries on my list (that I did not make) I'll have plenty left over for the move to whichever of those I choose.

So far Singapore and Indonesia (thank you Fri and Serp) seem really good. As does Germany now that I'm not completely ignorant of it. Eastern or Western are no never mind to me. They both have history and look amazing. Italy sounds expensive from what I know, but it always seemed like a place I'd want to see at least once...as a student of Fabrica. Spain seems nice, and the culture gives me a smile. Sweden's laid back style also has an appealling look. Hmm... Any more I should consider? Netherlands? Cambodia? Russia? Any?

I have five years to plan, so anyone saying I'm rushing into this is... probably right.

[Mystic Muse]

I suggest coming back in 5 years. a lot of advice may be obsolete at that point.

[Boo]

Yeah, I probably will, but this enables me to get a good idea of where I might want to go instead of judging 108 or so countries based on their Wikipedia entries. Speaking of which, New Zealand sound nice, even if their ruins consist of extinct animals. :smalltongue:

[GolemsVoice]

As does Germany now that I'm not completely ignorant of it. Eastern or Western are no never mind to me.

You're not talking about Eastern or Western Germany, like in two different countries, are you? :smallwink:

[Boo]

I meant Eastern/Western architecture and culture! Architecture and culture!! >> Totally forgot about that division. Gods, wouldn't that be the perfect irony?

[Maelstrom]

Maybe not France though, it's pretty expensive and French don't like foreigners much.

Stereotype much?

[Coplantor]

Stuff about Uruguay

Well, you beated me to say Uruguay, but you forgot one important uruguayan characteristic, there's Coplantor in Uruguay!:smalltongue:

[Syka]

Within a year, year and a half I'll be traveling over to Europe. Not sure what country, but right now it's between Greece (top of the list), Italy, and Germany. I'm limiting it to one country so that I can see as much as I can of that country, and I should be able to get at least 2 weeks in (if not more).

I'll let you know how it goes. :)

[Fri]

I can vouch on serpentine's answer on your criteria... but I want to tell you something.

You're a westerner. Most of south of asia, other than singapore, would be very cheap for you.

See, a store clerk here would be paid for about 50 bucks/month. A fresh graduate from local university typically would be paid for about 150 bucks/month. And no, they won't be considered poor. They won't live in luxury, and will need to save a lot, but they'll have a normal living here.

So, 100.000 US$ is like... 1000 month monthly salary for the lower class here. You can practically live for 100 years without working if you want to live with the local lower-middle class standard....

[Alarra]

How about Wales? *note* I know nothing about Wales other than that there were some neat ruins and quaint towns where I visited.

Italy's awesome too though.

[Boo]

I'm Welsh on my mothers side (granddad & grandmum). Oddly, I don't know anything about Wales except the language and... yeah, that's about it. Well, I know it's geographical position and a bit about it's history (yay for castles), but that's kinda a no-brainer.

[LCR]

30 or 40k should be plenty to immigrate into any EU country. Just make sure you have a job lined up (shouldn't be that big of a deal, if you have a college education) and you won't have a problem to get a work permit. Most countries in the EU have compulsory English classes in school, so I don't see a problem with day-to-day needs like shopping.
If you want citizenship as fast as possible (and the associated perks), join the French Foreign Legion. Or the British Army (I think you can do that, if you're from a Commonwealth country), it will speed up the process. Or dig out European relatives. You will for example be granted the German citizenship upon request, if you have Jewish relatives, who left the country during the Third Reich.

[Syka]

I also finding that there may be a fairly easy-ish way to get Italian citizenship (if you are Italian).


Like, my mom's mom was a first generation Italian-American. Her parents were born in Italy. Now, if my maternal grandmother was born prior to my great-grandparents naturalized but didn't renounced her citizenship, and my mom never renounced it, then I have a claim for Italian Citizenship. All I have to do is get a hold of the papers. (Which, given my mom's family's penchant for.....not being the most together family, could be difficult.)

That would make the whole process of moving to a foreign country far easier, if you can find something like that for a country in which you had ancestors.

[lostlittlebear]

China has 56 ethnicities with a large population of people from different regions around the world; Caucasians, Africans, people from the Middle East.

There may be a little racism, but the Chinese are usually polite and respectful.

Meh, I'd have to disagree on this point. Even discounting what's happening in Tibet and Xinjiang, anyone who is not Ethnic Chinese is seen as an interloper ast best. If you're not Chinese, they'll respect you and treat you with deference, but you'll never really be considered a Chinese national, no matter what your passport says. Things are slightly better if you're Overseas/Straits Chinese like me, but from personal experience even we are becoming less welcome as returning migrants to China because we're perceived as "sell-outs".

[SDF]

Also stay the heck away from the golden triangle. Though, I'm sure you already knew that. :smalltongue:

I can apparently get Scottish or Canadian citizenship pretty easy if I want due to lineage and relatives.

[Felixaar]

Australia.

That is all.

Copycat.

He's right, though.

Seriously though, with all your conditions... um... Narnia? :smallconfused:

[Boo]

I don't really have solid conditions, but I'll go through each hope that I've listed so as to explain in more detail:


- great nature and architecture
This is more opinion based, so whatever you think I might like: suggest it. I like Eastern and Western architecture/nature alike (although I'm just a bit more into Eastern).

- has cool ruins that don't require permission to enter (personally important) I would like this, but I'm sure only a few countries allow this. My only need is that it either has really cool ruins that I can enter (toll or no toll), or is near a country with such ruins.

- as little racism as possible (this is more specific to "location within a nation") It'd be nice to not be thought of as another white foreigner.

- women are equal citizens with little prejudice against/from them As long as they don't live to serve men, I'm happy.

- freedom of speech similar to North America (don't discuss; keep in mind)The freedom of speech doesn't need to include talk of political leaders from that country. It just needs to allow me to say things about everything else (I commonly say religious jokes in real life). If I can't mention Allah or Muhammad, I don't mind that. Some people are especially sensitive about them, so I tend not to talk about those particular religious figures anyway. These are just things I don't need to talk about. Whether they're allowed to be discussed in any way in that country is no never mind to me.

- less crime is better As long as I'm not likely to get robbed more than once a year, I'm happy.

- not too expensive to reside in I'd struggle in England, just saying.

- not impossible to receive citizenship/residence (I'm not going to bend over backwards, but I'll work and live there for ten or so years) If I must be able to speak their language at the level of a high schooler within two years or something, I probably won't get in.

- A country that knows English to some degree would be nice (it doesn't have to be a first language) Even if the general population knows only a few key words, I'm fine with it. I'd be trying to learn whatever national language they may have regardless.


As of now, my top choices (in no particular order) are:

Indonesia
Singapore
Germany
Italy
Spain
Sweden

(I thought about China, but I'm worried about pollution and population/space. Nothing against China, but I'm concerned that my asthma may come back if I live there. As well, because I don't get as much sleep as I'd like, my immune system is a bit weaker than most people and thus I am more susceptible to disease. With such close quarters, I would feel panicked if an epidemic hit. Other than those, I don't have any concerns about China.)

A continent that I have yet to hear about is South America. Anyone have any first-hand knowledge of it? I hear good things...

[Kaelaroth]

What about Mexico?

And in response to the UK; if you're looking for somewhere warm, this is not the place for you. However, we are fairly gender-balanced, there're some ruins and similar places scattered about, especially if you know where to look, racism's kinda on the upswing in some areas, but diversity's growing on the whole, freedom of speech perhaps exceeds North America, English is obviously not a problem, there's less crime than the US, immigration might not be as bad as it could be for other countries mentioned, and prices are normally fine outside of major cities (though are likely much more pricey than Canada, I hear).

[Amiel]

Meh, I'd have to disagree on this point[...]

Uh...which point are you disagreeing on?
The mentioned racism or that the Chinese are usually polite and respectful?
Note usually; generally, mostly, not always.


[A]nyone who is not Ethnic Chinese is seen as an interloper ast best. If you're not Chinese, they'll respect you and treat you with deference, but you'll never really be considered a Chinese national, no matter what your passport says.


But isn't that true for many if not all countries? Especially so in certain Western nations. The veneer may be that everyone is treated with equality, but the reality is much different. This is why many countries have nigh unattainable citizenship; here in Australia, you must undergo a citizenship test (recently introduced) before you can actually become a citizen; some questions are such that even the "natives" know little about.


Things are slightly better if you're Overseas/Straits Chinese like me, but from personal experience even we are becoming less welcome as returning migrants to China because we're perceived as "sell-outs".

That is a shame. It's also disappointing that many Chinese cling to traditional and outdated views.
I wonder how I'll be perceived; especially with my choice of gf.

[Quincunx]

If you think England is too expensive then don't even think about Ireland :smallsigh:

Can I get an "Amen!" on that one! Mind, there's very little chance the euro will stay at the peak of the Western currencies as it is now, but good grief. . .While it would be a bad fit for your permanent residence, consider dropping by during your wandering tour. Just rent. . .hire a car (hope you can drive a manual transmission with your left hand), realize that road shoulders and full-width lanes are more like guidelines, and go find some tumbledown stonework.

Pick your additional language(s) and begin studying them now. That, as well as the very smart idea of looking into residency permits well in advance, will be hugely in your favor.

[lostlittlebear]

-self-scrubbed-

[Boo]

Woah, woah, woah... Guys! I know you have opinions on the matter, but you're kinda going into dangerous waters here. I mean, this whole topic could easily topple into those waters, but c'mon.

About China: I'm probably not going to move there due to the many political issues that prevent me from doing certain stuff. It's a lovely place, I'm sure, but I just can't live there.

UK: My problem with moving to the UK is the exchange rate and pricing. If a four litre pack (jug or bags) of milk costs six dollars in Canada, I'd imagine it would cost about three pounds in England, and maybe the same in Ireland. That's fine (and cheaper). Actually, why don't I just ask about the big ones? *bops head*

What's your average bill payments (mortgage, heating, etc)? Food cost? Go ahead and say it in pounds/euros. I can translate that well enough.



Mexico: I don't know why, but I just don't want to live there... If I do, then I forgot.


Qunicunx: I plan start on the language as soon as I figure out which country I want to go to. Since I plan to get schooled for the next three or so years, I'll have to put off visiting until then; and until then I will only have the knowledge of each country instead of the experience.

I'm currently looking at Latin for English reasons. I have barely started, but I got the speech down, I think. >> Don't expect full sentences for at least a month.

[lostlittlebear]

Hm... true - I think the discussion might be best continued over PM.

[Boo]

*thumbs up*

And I forgot to add: Quincunx, thanks for the advice on residency permits. I would have probably started on those a year prior to moving.

[Quincunx]

I figure any preparation beats what I did (none whatsoever :smallredface:). Also, I took Latin also, figuring that it would be a good base for whatever life might throw at me. . .then I ended up in Sweden and almost wished I'd studied German.

Ireland:
Rent around here is starting at €600/mo for a one-bedroom furnished (they are all furnished, it seems) apartment for city life. Dublin is worse. Commuting is better.
We have dual-tariff electricity and enough computing power to shame a small business, so I can't give a general electricity estimate. The last supplier to send a sales pitch promised €.12/. . .unit whatsoever that may be, €20 per bill standing charge, and 13% VAT on the units.
Thanks to said computers, the gas heating bill is extremely low; it hasn't risen above €25/mo this year.
Broadband is somewhere around €50/mo, which we are told is excessive, but no other provider would put up with our usage. 170gig cap per month, and we managed to breach that. . .
Milk €1.50/2L, bread €.70 cheapest/€1.50 edible, ground beef "beef mince" €3/400g, cheap pasta €.50/500g, potatoes €1/kg cheap/€2/kg special types*, bacon €2.75/450g covered market/€2.75/200g supermarket, soda €.40/2L cheapest/€1.75/2L name brand, alcohol ask someone else. Important: Irish retailers have no grasp of bulk discounts, and the biggest package is frequently not the best value.

*Potatoes here are often 'floury' or 'mealy' types and rather dry: great for frying, terrible for boiling. If you need boiled potatoes, it's better to get the value pack than the special varieties. Go figure.

[Boo]

*stares at XE.com results*

I'm not sure if I'm screwed or okay in Ireland. It seems to be a place that's perfectly fine to visit, but living there could hurt me in the short run (then the long run). I don't really know, however. I'll have to keep it in mind.

[Kaelaroth]

What's your average bill payments (mortgage, heating, etc)? Food cost? Go ahead and say it in pounds/euros. I can translate that well enough.

Depends horrifically on where you want to live in the UK. There was some guy in the paper, recently, mentioned to be happily living on the coastline somewhere for a few hundred pounds a year. How? I don't know.
Housing payments? Nearby flats to me (in London) cost £250/week to rent, unfurnished. Outside of London, they're likely to cost considerably less. Food varies depending on what you want to eat, and where you want to buy from. Higher-end supermarkets offer "meals for two" at £10, while McDonalds at the other end of the spectrum offers a burger for less than £1. A meal out last night set me back about £15, at a chain restaurant nearby.

[Flarowon]

This entire concept confuses me. Why would you ever want to leave great and glorius* Canada? Canada is amazing!


*I hope I spelled that right.

[Solaris]

This entire concept confuses me. Why would you ever want to leave great and glorius* Canada? Canada is amazing!


*I hope I spelled that right.

Also, kind of dull - particularly if you've lived there your whole life and want someplace with old history. It's normal for a youngster to want to travel and/or see someplace else before settling down. It's actually a very good thing.

[Boo]

Also, kind of dull - particularly if you've lived there your whole life and want someplace with old history. It's normal for a youngster to want to travel and/or see someplace else before settling down. It's actually a very good thing.

I also like to indulge myself in other cultures (more than just going to a person from another culture). Another factor is that I've never been out of Canada except once when I went to a water park in America. That was pretty much on the border, and I left after three hours.

[Serpentine]

Hrm. Costs... Depends where you are (cities are more expensive for some things (e.g. housing) and cheaper for others (e.g. public transport). Here in a medium-sized town of 25-35,000ish people with pretty good amenities:
Housing: $300/week for my 3-bedroom house. Last house was $250/w for 3 internal rooms and a large "studio" out the back. Ranges from $85/w (crappy little 1-bedroom apartments) to $400+ (big fancy family house). About $200-$300 for a good 2+ bedroom home. Extra-easy to get housemates here, cuz it's a university town.
Water: Practically free, I think.
Power: Last power bill was $462/quarter including gas for a house with gas cooking and heating occupied by 3 people with 3 computers, 2 televisions, Playstation, microwave and so on between them, the former being in use for most of the day. That's more than it should've been - one person living alone should be able to keep it down to about $100 with care, I think.
Internet: Behind the rest of the world here. One of the best deals available here (Download Speed 1500Kb Upload Speed 256Kb Slowed to 64Kb after 30GB) we pay $74.95 per month (copy-pasted from the website).
Food costs: This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4199993&postcount=1) might give you an idea.