PDA

View Full Version : Damage per Round



Zergrusheddie
2010-03-04, 09:20 AM
What is/are the build/builds that can do the most consistent damage per round? I was thinking a metamagic cheese Wizard lobbing a Fireball but he can only do that a few times per day before he is spent. Warlock doesn't seem to do enough damage, thought it is highly consistent. And a super high level build is not always decent at low level. Any one have any ideas?

I am currently unable to get to any books so I am just curious.

Best of luck.
-Eddie

Eldariel
2010-03-04, 09:26 AM
Uhm, how high optimization? I assume we aren't looping anything, nor using Tier 0 classes nor Manipulate Form or any such. Also, what level?


Generic Charger can do incredibly consistent and relatively high (thousands) damage every round for all of his life. A Shadowcraft Mage with Echoing Spell and Residual Magic has an insane payload, being able to turn his Cantrips into His Highest Level +1 spells. Oh, and Arcane Thesising it for good measure and getting 'em all back (albeit at slightly lower CL) infi times per day.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-04, 09:27 AM
Biggest damage (I know of) is a 1d2 crusader (infinite), Ubercharger (upwards of 40,000 per hit) and god of smack which deals 1972d8 with a punch.

But you probably weren't talking about TO.

A hellfire glaivelock does very nice consistent damage as a melee touch attack. With the eldritch glaive blast shape and the hellfire warlock prestige class. Lots of damage, and very flavorful.

Tell us bit more about what you are going for? Cindy and the Mailman are the quintessential metamagic reducer builds, and you could quite easily build lesser versions of them if you don't want every encounter to be over in 1 round tops.

lsfreak
2010-03-04, 09:54 AM
Non-infinite and non-TO, an ubercharger of some kind. Power Attack, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, and Pounce to get 4 times your level in bonus damage on one or all attacks on a charge (depends on the DM as to weather Leap Attack is only the first or not). Add in a paladin with mounted combat for double damage because of Spirited Charge, or frenzied berserker for 6 times your level on Power Attack.

For consistent caster damage, mailman/Cindy wizard, using Orb of X spells and metamagic. For nova, a sorcerer with Arcane Spellsurge and Arcane Fusion.

KellKheraptis
2010-03-04, 11:51 AM
I can't remember what level the d2 crusader gets infinite damage, but an Ardent with Dominant Ideal can get it at level 10. Between Empower, Split Psionic Ray, and Enlarge, he's got infinite range and damage for free. Throw on Transdimensional to the whole mess, and he can target the entire multiverse :)

ericgrau
2010-03-04, 12:20 PM
Even without the million damage builds, uberchargers still do the most by far. Barring uberchargers your options are simple full attacking melee and evokers spamming metamagicked scorching rays for single targets and fireballs for multiple targets. Use one ability or another to change the energy type and to shape the spell to not hit allies. Or simply choose a spell with a different energy type like lightning bolt if you don't want to PrC or etc. while still affecting creatures with resistance. Then cast protection from the energy type(s) you use on your party's melee. Orb of X spells do a little less damage and only to a single target, but come out on top at high levels when a lot of creatures have SR... purely for the reason to prevent exactly what the cheesy orb spells do. Rogues are a 3rd option but it's trickier than it seems b/c half their attacks miss, sneak attack is situational, and they are very fragile in melee. Greater invis, a ranged weapon, other protections/SA triggers and anything else to boost AB provide ways around that. Splatbooks add feats like gravestrike to affect creatures you normally couldn't affect (but then you also get uberchargers from similar books). OTOH the nice thing about rogues is that they also have lots of skills on top of this.

KellKheraptis
2010-03-04, 12:28 PM
Also for the Orbers/Direct Damage casters : RAW, Elven Spell Lore can get around any annoying energy resistance/immunity.

Draz74
2010-03-04, 12:47 PM
In the Theoretical Optimization category, I'm surprised Hulking Hurler hasn't been mentioned.

In the Practical Optimization category, there are lots of choices. Warblade (with a dip in Barbarian for Pounce) with Two-Weapon Fighting and Stormguard Warrior is fun. Hellfire Warlock, as mentioned. Rogue isn't actually bad for DPR, with TWF and the right tricks to make sure Sneak Attack will work. Of course the Ubercharger is solid, especially if you mix in Frenzied Berserker.

It all depends what level we're talking, too. At low levels, Dungeoncrasher is pretty hard to beat. At Level 1, the Incarnate using Dissolving Spittle might actually reign supreme. (3d6 damage per round, isn't it? As a ranged touch attack? And he can keep doing it all day long?)

Wings of Peace
2010-03-04, 12:56 PM
Why has no one brought up The Nasty Gentleman (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19861906/LoPs_Dirty_Tricks_4:_The_Nasty_Gentlemen) yet? World Record Holder for the highest finite amount of damage unless I'm mistaken.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-04, 12:57 PM
Biggest damage (I know of) is a 1d2 crusader (infinite), Ubercharger (upwards of 40,000 per hit) and god of smack which deals 1972d8 with a punch.

But you probably weren't talking about TO.

A hellfire glaivelock does very nice consistent damage as a melee touch attack. With the eldritch glaive blast shape and the hellfire warlock prestige class. Lots of damage, and very flavorful.

Tell us bit more about what you are going for? Cindy and the Mailman are the quintessential metamagic reducer builds, and you could quite easily build lesser versions of them if you don't want every encounter to be over in 1 round tops.

Chuck beats the Ubercharger and God of Smack.


Why has no one brought up The Nasty Gentleman yet? World Record Holder for highest non-infinite loop damage unless I'm mistaken.

Again, Chuck broke that record.

Wings of Peace
2010-03-04, 12:58 PM
Chuck beats the Ubercharger and God of Smack.



Again, Chuck broke that record.

I'm out of the loop on this stuff. Link?

Edit: Nevermind. I passed my Google check.

Greenish
2010-03-04, 12:59 PM
In TO, damage comes in three categories:

Infinite.
Enough to insta-kill anything.
Other.

Wings of Peace
2010-03-04, 01:03 PM
In TO, damage comes in three categories:

Infinite.
Enough to insta-kill anything.
Other.


2. Enough to insta-kill anything and the matter from which it was created.

Douglas
2010-03-04, 01:31 PM
Chuck beats the Ubercharger and God of Smack.



Again, Chuck broke that record.
Wasn't Chuck rendered invalid by errata making Footsteps of the Divine not eligible for Persistent Spell? Or did someone find a way to get his speed high enough for record breaking even without that?

KellKheraptis
2010-03-04, 01:33 PM
Wasn't Chuck rendered invalid by errata making Footsteps of the Divine not eligible for Persistent Spell? Or did someone find a way to get his speed high enough for record breaking even without that?

Ocular Spell or Reach Spell make any errata a moot point, anyway.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-04, 01:34 PM
Wasn't Chuck rendered invalid by errata making Footsteps of the Divine not eligible for Persistent Spell? Or did someone find a way to get his speed high enough for record breaking even without that?

The Errata did nothing to Chuck by some readings, but this wasn't good enough for a few of us. Toose few concocted a new Chuck that managed to break the original's damage record. He may be able to go even further considering we've found a reliable method of gaining multiple pools of Turning attempts that can fuel Divine feats.

sofawall
2010-03-04, 01:34 PM
Ocular Spell or Reach Spell make any errata a moot point, anyway.

Er, no. It fails the other requirement for Persist Spell.

KellKheraptis
2010-03-04, 01:35 PM
Er, no. It fails the other requirement for Persist Spell.

And what is that? Fixed range with duration longer than instantaneous? Unless that's what they errata-ed.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-04, 01:36 PM
And what is that? Fixed range with duration longer than instantaneous? Unless that's what they errata-ed.

No, he means the Discharge part.

2xMachina
2010-03-04, 01:36 PM
No dis-chargeable spells allowed.

No way around that one...

EDIT: lol, ninjaing ninjas

tyckspoon
2010-03-04, 01:37 PM
And what is that? Fixed range with duration longer than instantaneous? Unless that's what they errata-ed.

The discharge-able clause, I think, with the 'shorten remaining duration to 1 round' effect officially redefined as discharging the spell.

Ninjas! Everywhere!

Douglas
2010-03-04, 01:37 PM
And what is that? Fixed range with duration longer than instantaneous? Unless that's what they errata-ed.
Non-dischargeable. The errata made Footsteps of the Divine explicitly have an effect for discharging it rather than "ending it early" or however they originally phrased it.

Wow, that was quite a few ninjas.

Nohwl
2010-03-04, 01:39 PM
The Errata did nothing to Chuck by some readings, but this wasn't good enough for a few of us. Toose few concocted a new Chuck that managed to break the original's damage record. He may be able to go even further considering we've found a reliable method of gaining multiple pools of Turning attempts that can fuel Divine feats.

how do you get multiple pools of turn attempts?

Greenish
2010-03-04, 01:47 PM
how do you get multiple pools of turn attempts?Domains, for example the elemental ones. [Edit]: I assume, I haven't looked over Chuck Jr.

Douglas
2010-03-04, 01:53 PM
Domains, for example the elemental ones. [Edit]: I assume, I haven't looked over Chuck Jr.
Those can't be used to fuel Divine feats, though.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-04, 01:58 PM
how do you get multiple pools of turn attempts?

Only two class features can replace Turning while still being compatible with Divine Feats: Channel Incarnum and Rebuke Dragons. It's possible to get both of those on the same character by abusing UA's poorly written variant base classes (which, by RAW, can multiclass into the original class). The build goes:

Dragonborn Azurin Cloistered Cleric 1/Cleric 1/Sacred Exorcist 1/Dread Necromancer 1


ACFs: Channel Incarnum (via Azurin), Rebuke Dragons (via Dragonborn).

Turning: 3+Cha
Rebuke Dragon: 3+Cha
Rebuke: 3+Cha
Channel Incarnum: 3+Cha

Then, every Extra Turning feat you take gives you 16 total turning attempts (enough for a minimum of 2 spells/feat).


RAW, you can have both Rebuke Undead and Turn Undead on the same character and they have separate pools for Turning.

FishAreWet
2010-03-04, 02:08 PM
I can verify what Sinfire Titan posted. It works. It's silly.

Damage per round is useless to optimize. Well, not useless, but awkward. You can make a build that does any amount of damage that you want. Any.

then you remember how easy it is to be immune to certain types and damage.

And I am also surprised how long it took Hulking Hurler to get mentioned. Getting millions of d6s is simple.

Hawk7915
2010-03-04, 02:13 PM
In terms of theoretical game-breaking optimization, that's been covered. In terms of what does the best damage/round with the least hoops to jump through and the least game-breakingness...

At low levels, Warblades and Crusaders. Full BAB, weapon proficiency with good 2H weapons, ability to emphasize strength, high HD...the perfect-frontline warriors. They can attack or power attack for "consistent" damage, and bust out maneuvers and stances (which they get a nigh-infinite amount of per encounter thanks to their awesome recovery method) for some good "burst" damage. Their skill sets are mediocre but some of their stances and maneuvers give them utility on the field (bull rushing, throwing, or disarming foes) if for some reason bashing them in the face with a greatsword until they stop twitching isn't working out for you :smallwink:.

Barbarian is close but no cigar to above. Any full BAB class can use power attack at levels 1-5, but Barbarians have Rage 1/day for a little damage boost, a better HD than every other non-ToB "fighter-type" except Knights, and either Fast Movement (to close the gap sooner) or Pounce (to get multiple full attacks after moving, something that ToB characters have a bit more trouble with).

As levels get higher, hitting 6+ range, I think that Duskblades, Clerics, and Druids take off. Druids especially can wildshape into nasty forms and by 7th level can practically be shaped for a full adventuring day. They can fire off "blasty" stuff in Wildshape mode if need be (you did take natural spell, right?), but to be more effective they can summon hordes of beasts, buff themselves and their companion, and then wildshape into a bear or a fleshraker dinosaur or something. Clerics are similar, but rely more on the buffs and DMM: Extend or DMM: Persist to get maximum benefit out of them. Duskblades are full BAB and can qualify for Arcane Strike around level 9 I think, allowing them to "nova out" on attacks. They probably have the best damage potential of all the non-broken ways to do tons of damage, but will run out after an encounter or two while the ToB'ers, Barbarian, and CoDzillas can last all day or almost all day.

At very high levels, probably Meta-cheese wizards. Even with the banning of stinky cheese, it's not hard to have enough spell slots that a wizard dedicated to it can't murder people with Empowered, Maximized, Split-ray, Repeat, Scorching Rays for several straight encounters. God forbid that all the metamagic reducers are allowed to stack up and reduce the total cost to 0 or even negatives.

Honorable mention goes to a Hellfire Glaivelock. All other ways of dealing huge, consistent amounts of damage suffer from the following problems in my eyes and are not as good as one of these classes:
1. An overreliance on dice instead of flat modifiers. 1.5STR +2x Power Attack >>> 3d6 sneak attack most of the time.
2. Too many hoops. A 2WF Swashbuckler/Rogue with Martial Study - Shadowblade Technique does get 5d6+DEX+INT damage with 3 attacks/round at level 9 or so...if you are flanking and not fighting an undead, construct, fortified enemy, or plant. Plus you'll need lots of flaws to qualify for all the feats this build needs.
3. Overreliance on full attacking. Obviously all of the full BAB guys and the druid like to full attack, but are just fine walloping people with single attacks and maneuvers until they set that up. A Monk, TWF, etc has no such luck.

EDIT: I missed some specialized builds, of course: Factotum/Swashbuckler/Invisible Blade with mastery of Iajitsu Focus.

Douglas
2010-03-04, 02:14 PM
And I am also surprised how long it took Hulking Hurler to get mentioned. Getting millions of d6s is simple.
Millions? Don't you mean trillions? Though I suppose that is for the not so simple optimized versions of it.

There are one or two other Divine-feat-compatible abilities, btw. Destroy Undead from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft is one, and I think the spiders one in Drow of the Underdark (I think that's the right book) works too, and isn't unambiguously restricted to drow. Both of these are cleric ACFs, though, so you'd have to find a way to multiclass into cleric again to take advantage of them.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-04, 05:36 PM
Also for the Orbers/Direct Damage casters : RAW, Elven Spell Lore can get around any annoying energy resistance/immunity.

Hooray for all attacks being set to do Vile Unholy Damage.

(and yes, that is a single energy type, so it works)

Augmented Lurk
2010-03-04, 07:45 PM
Nobody's mentioned Blastificers yet?

Zergrusheddie
2010-03-07, 03:50 PM
I have been out of the loop for a few days now. I finally have internet access again so all is well. I wasn't talking about anything like Hulking Hurlers or Pun using a twig to split the world in two pieces. That level of optimization just makes damage pointless. As it was noted, with high enough optimization damage becomes infinite or enough to one shot the Tarrasque 85 times over. I was talking about something that a DM would actually allow.

Hellfire Warlock seems to work pretty decently for consistent damage, though that does require a dip into a certain class to be really useful.

Chargers are great too, but it requires that you have something to charge. It's extremely high burst damage but is not very consistent.

I did not think about a TWF Warblade with Tiger Claw maneuvers with Stormguard Warrior. That would work pretty good except that it requires that your opponent doesn't die or makes it impossible for you to attack. It falls more into the burst range.

Blaster Casters work great, especially with Arcane Thesis Orbs of X but they probably only have a few per day.

I am not familiar with the King/God of Smack. Anyone care to link.

Best of luck.
-Eddie

Emmerask
2010-03-07, 04:08 PM
Chargers are great too, but it requires that you have something to charge. It's extremely high burst damage but is not very consistent.


With momentum swing and psionic charge and the one tob maneuver I always forget the name you can practically charge every turn the whole battle.
So I would say something like a psywarrior/warmind/tob class ubercharger build will get the crown ( in the I donīt throw planets at you or do infinite damage department atleast)

Zergrusheddie
2010-03-07, 04:12 PM
Yeah, maybe a Physic Weapon Master wins. Take the feats that give you Thicket of Blades, Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit, and no matter what the enemy does they are eating attacks.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-03-07, 11:36 PM
Turning: 3+Cha
Rebuke Dragon: 3+Cha
Rebuke: 3+Cha
Channel Incarnum: 3+ChaFour DMMable pools is good. I like 12. On a cohort. Without Improved Cohort.

Did I mention all the turns are swappable to other characters?

Also the epic max is 16 pools at level 42.

Sophismata
2010-03-08, 12:41 AM
Yeah, maybe a Physic Weapon Master wins. Take the feats that give you Thicket of Blades, Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit, and no matter what the enemy does they are eating attacks.

Psychic Weapon Master is already extremely feat heavy. To even take it, you need:

Dodge
Mobility
Power Attack
Psionic Dodge
Psionic Weapon
Weapon Focus

And you need to use the PsyWar chassis. Then, you need to take:

Improved Critical
Combat Reflexes

In order to get the special benefits (+2 threat, wisdom adds to AoO's). It's do-able, but you don't get many options for variety.