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Whyte_Widow
2010-03-04, 12:36 PM
suggestions for a 6 sorc/3 rogue/ 4 arcane trickster (blood and tome version)

i had taken the arcane trickster prior to obtaining the 3.5 version so my GM is allowing it.

currently have these feats.
reach spell
spell pen
greater spell pen
point blank shot
weap fin (ray)
empower spell

i have done alot of research on spells feats etc. and my GM is allowing me to take training to "awaken" the dragon blood in me. essentially giving me access to retrain my spells and feats. any suggestions?

obviously this a sneak attacking ray/ touch spell build. she is obsessed with her invis... and is now teaching at a major school in our home town "ray sneak attack 101" if you will. my twin brother is the rogue in the party. my other half brother is a teifling monk whos taken the vow of poverty. me and my twin are CN while the monk is obviously, LG. the cleric is a cleric of hades/ sacred ex. rogue is 14th i am 13th, monk is 13 and the bugbear fighter, cleric are both 12.

:-D

Superglucose
2010-03-04, 12:44 PM
"Orb Of" spells?

Though I must say that Scorching Ray is gorgeous with sneak attack. Picking up the Orb Of and Lesser Orb spells will help you hit things with SR or magic immunity.

Point Blank Shot could (and probably should) be dropped for Energy Substitution which you will want, along with Rapid Metamagic or Arcane Spellsurge.

Also, Weapon Finesse(ray)? That... doesn't exist. You just take Weapon Finesse, not for a specific weapon, and it wouldn't matter anyway since rays are ranged touch attacks and use Dex to begin with.

Spell Pen/Greater Spell Pen aren't necessary if you take the Orb Of spells (since they are SR: No and still grant you sneak attack).

So see if you can retrain those four feats. Energy Substitution, the other Energy metamagic feat, maybe Searing Spell, perhaps Arcane Thesis for Scorching Ray or your favorite Orb spell, and Rapid Metamagic.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-04, 12:45 PM
I actually Suggest:

Race: Dromite or Uldra (1la for a free ray of x spell/power) or Dark Whisper Gnome (ToM and RoS)
Class: Sorcerer 3/Rogue 5/Arcane Trickster 7/Spellwarp Sniper 5

Quirp
2010-03-04, 12:49 PM
It would be helpful to know which books you have access to.
Assuming core you want things like True Strike, Greater Invisibility, Scorching Ray and other Ray spells. Non-Core you should look into the orb spells (complete arcane/mage I donīt remember)
In Complete Scoundrel there is a class (Spellwarp Sniper) that allows you to use "normal" attack spells (fireball, etc.) as rays.
For your feats: Point Blank Shot is unnecessary and weapon finesse is perhaps not that important since touch armor tends to be very low. Empower spell is great. You should look into Practiced Spellcaster as it gives you your three lost caster levels back.

Superglucose
2010-03-04, 12:52 PM
orb Of is Complete Arcane, iirc.

I dunno I always nabbed it from the Spell Compendium

Wings of Peace
2010-03-04, 12:54 PM
I actually Suggest:

Race: Dromite or Uldra (1la for a free ray of x spell/power) or Dark Whisper Gnome (ToM and RoS)
Class: Sorcerer 3/Rogue 5/Arcane Trickster 7/Spellwarp Sniper 5

This made me smile. Not because it's a poor suggestion but because in my mind I imagined her "awakening" her dragon blood and turning into a Dromite :smallsmile:

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-04, 12:58 PM
first off scorching ray isn't that great as you only get SA on one of the rays.

secound if you have the feats for it some of the more ray esc reserve feats are good.
Invisible needle and there's another one i can't think of.

also you may want to take spell thief instead of the rogue levels. not only does it keep up with your caster skills you can take master spell theif and get back all your lost caster levels.

Edit:
Weapon finesse is unessasary. seeing as rays are range touch attacks and use ur dex any way.
Edit Edit:
i would change it for precise shot even though its not realy needed, just helps to not have to get the -4.

Also reach spell is amazing on touch of cold. potentialy some small str drain and 1d6+SA every round is nice.

Optimystik
2010-03-04, 01:04 PM
Xephs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/xeph.htm) make excellent snipers - 0 LA, Dex bonus, speedy, +1 to saves and they insta-qualify for Psionic Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicShot) and subsequent feats.

ericgrau
2010-03-04, 01:07 PM
Scorching ray is ok purely for the damage, but ya you only get SA once. It's also a good idea to get a variety of energy types since most of your damage will be SA damage. Get greater invisibility or blink or the like so you can trigger your sneak attacks. Don't underestimate feats like point blank shot, precise shot and weapon focus so your rays can actually hit. Though a level 20 character may easily hit a dragon without any boosts, your AB at lower levels isn't that hot and not every monster is a low dex gargantuan beast screaming "touch attack me".

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-04, 01:18 PM
I actually Suggest:

Race: Dromite or Uldra (1la for a free ray of x spell/power) or Dark Whisper Gnome (ToM and RoS)
Class: Sorcerer 3/Rogue 5/Arcane Trickster 7/Spellwarp Sniper 5

New Idea: I'm going to keep track of how many times I wish I had the Headdesk Emote from BG in my sig.




You can get Sneak Attack without losing caster levels:

Martial variant Wizard 5/Master Specialist 4/Keeper of the Cerulean Sign 2/Unseen Seer 4/Arcane Trickster 5

Feats:

Wizard 1: Martial Study (any Shadow Hand maneuver)
1st: Prereqs
3rd: Prereqs
6th: Prereqs
9th: Prereqs
Wizard 5 (9th level): Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance)
Nothing above this level matters.

Martial Variant Wizard is in the SRD. Grants Fighter Bonus feats instead of Scribe Scroll and bonus Metamagic feats. Build needs to go Wizard 4/Master Specialist 4/Wizard +1 in order to take Martial Stance. Use Unseen Seer to get Hunter's Eye from PH2 for more Sneak Attack.

Superglucose
2010-03-04, 01:18 PM
first off scorching ray isn't that great as you only get SA on one of the rays.

Well in that case, orb Of.

EDIT: Doesn't Meteor Swarm have an attack roll?

ericgrau
2010-03-04, 01:24 PM
The one SA per volley rule applies to all spells with multiple attacks. Quicken spell OTOH could provide a way to get a 2nd sneak attack, as well as a method to get quicken true strike for hitting those pesky dexterous buggers way in the back.

Vizzerdrix
2010-03-04, 01:25 PM
Sinfire: at what level would that start sneak attacking with rays? I'm unfamiliar with ToB stuff.


Side note: UA Generic Caster can pick up sneak attack as a feat.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-04, 01:26 PM
Sinfire: at what level would that start sneak attacking with rays? I'm unfamiliar with ToB stuff.


Side note: UA Generic Caster can pick up sneak attack as a feat.

9th. Until then, play GOD and just use Glitterdust and stuff. Upon getting Martial Stance, play God and just Sneak Attack whatever gets hit by Glitterdust and stuff.

Superglucose
2010-03-04, 01:30 PM
The one SA per volley rule applies to all spells with multiple attacks. Quicken spell OTOH could provide a way to get a 2nd sneak attack, as well as a method to get quicken true strike for hitting those pesky dexterous buggers way in the back.
I was just thinking that it would be hilarious to Sneak Attack with a meteor swarm.

Optimystik
2010-03-04, 01:31 PM
I was just thinking that it would be hilarious to Sneak Attack with a meteor swarm.

You can - it has an attack roll, therefore it is a weaponlike spell, by CArc.

Greenish
2010-03-04, 01:32 PM
The obligatory handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240.0).

Whyte_Widow
2010-03-04, 03:25 PM
okay. these were things i was thinking of prior. i obviously cannot change my race or class structure so far. so retraining feats are okay... as well as a few slight changes to my spell book...

i am a human, female, CN with the above classes mentioned in that order.

i have access to all books excluding pathfinder and other add on books.

i was thinking of the "wings of ______" spells from the dragon books that are sorc only.

i have lesser sonic orb as one of my first level spells... alongside shield, mage armor, etc

currently my big blaster is acid orb. my level three spells are all my AOE damage.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-04, 03:29 PM
Retraining is allowed? There's two feats in Ghostwalk that raise the DCs of your spells. They stack with Spell Focus. Take them over Weapon Finesse (which you don't need, Rays use Dex all ready) and Point Blank Shot (which you don't need unless it's a requirement for Spellwarp Sniper).

Whyte_Widow
2010-03-04, 03:29 PM
It would be helpful to know which books you have access to.
Assuming core you want things like True Strike, Greater Invisibility, Scorching Ray and other Ray spells. Non-Core you should look into the orb spells (complete arcane/mage I donīt remember)
In Complete Scoundrel there is a class (Spellwarp Sniper) that allows you to use "normal" attack spells (fireball, etc.) as rays.
For your feats: Point Blank Shot is unnecessary and weapon finesse is perhaps not that important since touch armor tends to be very low. Empower spell is great. You should look into Practiced Spellcaster as it gives you your three lost caster levels back.

practiced spellcaster was another that i already had.... i had forgotten to mention that.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-04, 03:30 PM
okay. these were things i was thinking of prior. i obviously cannot change my race or class structure so far. so retraining feats are okay... as well as a few slight changes to my spell book...

i am a human, female, CN with the above classes mentioned in that order.

i have access to all books excluding pathfinder and other add on books.

i was thinking of the "wings of ______" spells from the dragon books that are sorc only.

i have lesser sonic orb as one of my first level spells... alongside shield, mage armor, etc

currently my big blaster is acid orb. my level three spells are all my AOE damage.


I would drop some of the AOE's. Just pick one nice one you like and grab other level 3 spells.

Drop weapon finese ray as technicaly it doesn't work.

I would drop penetration too. grab rapid meta magic and some other two feats. (more meta magic or mabye some metamagic reducers)

Optimystik
2010-03-04, 03:39 PM
As others have said, lose spell penetration. You have orbs, which already ignore SR, if you come up against problem monsters.

Since you like Dromite (I still advise a Xeph, but they work too) you qualify for psionic feats. Get Psionic Meditation, Psionic Shot and Greater Psionic Shot for a huge damage boost at low levels.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-04, 03:41 PM
As others have said, lose spell penetration. You have orbs, which already ignore SR, if you come up against problem monsters.

Since you like Dromite (I still advise a Xeph, but they work too) you qualify for psionic feats. Get Psionic Meditation, Psionic Shot and Greater Psionic Shot for a huge damage boost at low levels.

that is a good point i have to agree with optimystik

Whyte_Widow
2010-03-04, 04:43 PM
been in the campaign for about a year now. no race changes... i didnt even bother to ask as there is deep rooted storyline between me and my twin (the rogue who is the effin batman.) lots of city politics.

anyway. i was looking into wings of cover and wings of flurry for an arcane thesis spell.

best im coming up with is to lose spell pen. and replace with rapid meta magic and a few other feats. drop the weap prof. and grab maybe which other metamagic feats?

edit. i grabbed point blank shot to allow me to fire into combat. seeing as we have alot of melee classes in the party.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-03-04, 04:55 PM
Double Wand Wielder (a feat from CA) + 2 CL 11 Scorching ray wands + Sneak attack = Lots and Lots of damage. There are probably better ways of doing it, but this one's quite fun.

Greenish
2010-03-04, 05:00 PM
edit. i grabbed point blank shot to allow me to fire into combat. seeing as we have alot of melee classes in the party.Point Blank Shot doesn't do anything to firing into melee. That would be Precise Shot which I don't see on your list.

So, drop PBS. You can afford the -4 bonus, or rather it's not worth two feats to be rid of.

Optimystik
2010-03-04, 05:00 PM
Point Blank Shot doesn't do anything to firing into melee. That would be Precise Shot which I don't see on your list.

So, drop PBS. You can afford the -4 bonus, or rather it's not worth two feats to be rid of.

He needs PBS to get Precise Shot.

Greenish
2010-03-04, 05:04 PM
He needs PBS to get Precise Shot.Which he doesn't have, and as I said, I don't think two feats for +4 to hit when firing into melee are worth it when you use touch attacks.

So instead of taking Precise Shot, he should drop PBS, IMO.

Optimystik
2010-03-04, 05:07 PM
Ah, I see. Well, if that's all it gets then I agree with you... but some DMs use the "if you miss without PS you hit your companion" houserule - and with rays/orbs, that can definitely strain friendships.

Whyte_Widow
2010-03-04, 05:16 PM
Ah, I see. Well, if that's all it gets then I agree with you... but some DMs use the "if you miss without PS you hit your companion" houserule - and with rays/orbs, that can definitely strain friendships.

i was under the assumption that you could not fire into melee without rolling a percent to hit your friend. as i guess that may be a household rule... i havent looked it up myself. he will not let me fire into melee without it. hm. ill have to look that exact ruleset up.

ericgrau
2010-03-04, 05:20 PM
Which he doesn't have, and as I said, I don't think two feats for +4 to hit when firing into melee are worth it when you use touch attacks.

So instead of taking Precise Shot, he should drop PBS, IMO.

You mean +5. And at his level and sorcerer BAB, yes, ray attacks will miss.
When this is all he does, he needs to hit. He has 7 BAB. So with dex he has, what, a +10 to hit? It's not hard for something with a similar dex and a size or item bonus to have around 13-14 touch AC. Ya, a few gargantuan things have AC 6, but it's far from a majority. So 15% of his rays miss, 85% hit on those creatures. Acceptable, I suppose. But wait, now he's firing into melee and 35% of his rays miss. Into melee when there's another creature between him and his target? -4 AB, +4 AC to target. 45% chance to hit, 55% miss. Or he skips his full round action to empower spell so he can move and get a better shot... which still has a 35% miss chance? Or he could hope and pray for gargantuan creatures and sigh the rest of the time, since rays are almost all he does.

If he's in a party then he needs precise shot. Point blank shot and weapon focus while he's at it don't hurt either. He'll do much more damage from hitting than what he gets from empowering his ray and praying that his party's melee isn't engaging his target. It's not like he's a straight wizard or sorcerer where he can cast other high level spells until he gets a clear shot; he needs to hit whether the situation is accommodating or not.

Greenish
2010-03-04, 05:36 PM
You mean +5. And at his level and sorcerer BAB, yes, ray attacks will miss.
When this is all he does, he needs to hit. He has 7 BAB. So with dex he has, what, a +10 to hit? It's not hard for something with a similar dex and a size or item bonus to have around 14-15 touch AC. Ya, a few gargantuan things have AC 6, but it's far from a majority. So 25% of his rays miss, 75% hit on those creatures. Maybe acceptable if this wasn't his main focus. But wait, now he's firing into melee and almost half his rays miss. Into melee when there's another creature between him and his target? -4 AB, +4 AC to target. 35% chance to hit, 65% miss. Almost not worth bothering with. So, um, this round he sits out? Or he skips his full round action to empower spell so he can move and get a better shot... which still has a 45% miss chance? Or he could sit out combats that aren't against gargantuan creatures... since rays are almost all he does.

If he's in a party then he needs precise shot. Point blank shot and weapon focus while he's at it don't hurt either. He'll do much more damage than what he gets from empowering his ray and praying that his party's melee isn't engaging his target. It's not like he's a straight wizard where he can cast other high level spells until he gets a clear shot; he needs to hit whether the situation is accommodating or not.He ought to have other spells to cast, too, and I don't see burning feats on stuff your could avoid if your party didn't do stupid stuff like standing in the line of fire. All four melee can pack on it without being on the line, and if it's larger than Large there won't even be any minus for firing into melee.

So, a small target with four guys on melee with it will be hard to hit. Said guy is also dead anyhow.

And I meant +4. Orbs at his level have 60ft. range, so he should avoid being in 30ft. It's not always possible, but still.

[Edit]: This was my reasoning before I heard of the houserule. Of course if PBS prevents you from shooting your allies, take it, and then Precise Shot is pretty decent too.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-03-04, 05:39 PM
Look up Spellwarp Sniper. Have fun.

Greenish
2010-03-04, 05:46 PM
Look up Spellwarp Sniper. Have fun.Oh yeah, definitely. Ask your DM very, very nicely if you can change your Arcane Trickster levels (and maybe even some of your rogue levels) to Spellwarp Sniper from Comp. Scoundrel. The basics are here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070220a).

Or just start taking levels in it, since you qualify.

ericgrau
2010-03-04, 05:49 PM
He ought to have other spells to cast, too, and I don't see burning feats on stuff your could avoid if your party didn't do stupid stuff like standing in the line of fire. All four melee can pack on it without being on the line, and if it's larger than Large there won't even be any minus for firing into melee.

So, a small target with four guys on melee with it will be hard to hit. Said guy is also dead anyhow.

And I meant +4. Orbs at his level have 60ft. range, so he should avoid being in 30ft. It's not always possible, but still.

There's still a -4 to hit even if they're not in the way while they're in melee. If they were in the way, that'd be another -4. And you can't tell the melee to stop going into melee. It's quite a common thing for them to do. In fact, rather than casting something else in the rare times when melee is in the way, it'll be the reverse: Waiting for the rare time when melee is not in the way and then firing her ray. You simply cannot afford to do this on a ray build. Unless her party is full of casters and archers and the like and has at most 1 melee (or preferably zero), she needs precise shot. Especially since she's a sorcerer who can't move for a clear shot and empower at the same time. She should at least take it over empower, as landing 50% more hits much of the time is better than 25% more damage all the time (assuming half of her damage is spell damage and the other half is sneak attack). And whether she's using precise shot or not, PBS and perhaps weapon focus will still each give her 6-7% more hits.



And I meant +4. Orbs at his level have 60ft. range, so he should avoid being in 30ft. It's not always possible, but still.

Did she get some ability to extend the range of her sneak attacks? Because normally you must be within 30 feet to get sneak attack damage.

Greenish
2010-03-04, 05:55 PM
Did she get some ability to extend the range of her sneak attacks? Because normally you must be within 30 feet to get sneak attack damage.Oh yeah, those. :smallredface:

ericgrau
2010-03-04, 06:00 PM
i was under the assumption that you could not fire into melee without rolling a percent to hit your friend. as i guess that may be a household rule... i havent looked it up myself. he will not let me fire into melee without it. hm. ill have to look that exact ruleset up.
Ya, that's a houserule, or perhaps a carry-over from 3.0. In 3.0 you had a chance of hitting your ally. In 3.5, they removed it but some people kept playing that way. I don't remember anything about a relation to point blank shot though.

Whyte_Widow
2010-03-04, 06:08 PM
You mean +5. And at his level and sorcerer BAB, yes, ray attacks will miss.
When this is all he does, he needs to hit. He has 7 BAB. So with dex he has, what, a +10 to hit? It's not hard for something with a similar dex and a size or item bonus to have around 13-14 touch AC. Ya, a few gargantuan things have AC 6, but it's far from a majority. So 15% of his rays miss, 85% hit on those creatures. Acceptable, I suppose. But wait, now he's firing into melee and 35% of his rays miss. Into melee when there's another creature between him and his target? -4 AB, +4 AC to target. 45% chance to hit, 55% miss. Or he skips his full round action to empower spell so he can move and get a better shot... which still has a 35% miss chance? Or he could hope and pray for gargantuan creatures and sigh the rest of the time, since rays are almost all he does.

If he's in a party then he needs precise shot. Point blank shot and weapon focus while he's at it don't hurt either. He'll do much more damage from hitting than what he gets from empowering his ray and praying that his party's melee isn't engaging his target. It's not like he's a straight wizard or sorcerer where he can cast other high level spells until he gets a clear shot; he needs to hit whether the situation is accommodating or not.

first off thank you for this.

weapon focus not finess. from my OP. my bad. i do have weapon focus (ray) as apposed to finess. and yes... i dont want to hit my teammates. also.. i dont have a huge arsenal due to being a sorc. i dont have the utility of a wizard for sure. what i do have is a unique character that is a product of her environment. and in this case a city scape... a diplomat by day and scoundrel by night.

i do want to add a bit more defense capabilities. i have a ring of shielding (+2 deflection bonus) amulet of natty armor (+2) and of course my mage armor. cloak of charisma +4 (24 with this cloak) gloves of dex (+2, making it an 18) i have subdual wand that allows me to cast spells as subdual damage 3 times per day. vest of resistance +3. ring of sonic resistance. GM likes to play with sonic stuff. and a ring of cold resistance that i picked up somewhere. i have some money saved for a few other items as well.

as far as retraining any of my levels in another class... im not allowed to. i enjoy the build that i have taken... but, i have other games that i can play other classes in. spellwarp sniper was an idea early on for this toon... but, her background pushed her this direction. so arcane trickster til i die, yo! :smallcool:

i dont mind the duel wand idea for sneaks. could save some spell slots. but wouldnt that eat up a useful metamagic feat?

also although orbs have a 60 ft reach... 30 ft to apply sneak attack damage with a ranged weapon including rays.
so feats.
~practiced spellcaster
~empower spell
~pbs (if my gm is mistaken i may have to get precise shot. this could also be a home rule as well.)
~reach spell (for those vampiric touches)
~weapon focus (ray) - this is due to the mobs our gm likes to throw at us. hes as brutal as you can get. with his encounters that is. and i think all the help i can get to hit would help. it is considered to trade this out.

heres where i needed the added help with feats.
take rapid metamagic and which other metamagic feats? is that the best plan after the above feats?

Eldariel
2010-03-04, 06:43 PM
Ya, that's a houserule, or perhaps a carry-over from 3.0. In 3.0 you had a chance of hitting your ally. In 3.5, they removed it but some people kept playing that way. I don't remember anything about a relation to point blank shot though.

In 3.0 it was the Precise Shot-rule; if you miss by the 4 Cover AC granted by target being in melee, you hit the other guy instead (yeah, it worked a bit differently back then). That's how we play it still, makes way more sense. But yeah, officially, they changed it in 3.5.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-04, 07:36 PM
In 3.0 it was the Precise Shot-rule; if you miss by the 4 Cover AC granted by target being in melee, you hit the other guy instead (yeah, it worked a bit differently back then). That's how we play it still, makes way more sense. But yeah, officially, they changed it in 3.5.I'd be abusing this; drop my attack bonus as much as possible, get an ally's touch AC as high as possible, find a curse that causes nat 20s to hit as nat 1s, and voila...I attack my ally every round and auto-hit his foe.

Eldariel
2010-03-04, 07:41 PM
I'd be abusing this; drop my attack bonus as much as possible, get an ally's touch AC as high as possible, find a curse that causes nat 20s to hit as nat 1s, and voila...I attack my ally every round and auto-hit his foe.

Hm, I remembered wrong. It's the same in 3.0; it's just the "attacking cover"-rules. I had the diagram on 123 confused with the explanation on 124. Yeah, if you're attacking an opponent with cover from ally (or an ally with cover from enemy!) and miss by 1-4, you might miss the other one instead (if you beat their coverless AC, I recall).

ericgrau
2010-03-04, 08:03 PM
<snip>

Pick up a dusty rose prism ioun stone for another +1 AC for only 5,000 gp. You can get resist energy or protection from energy as one of your spells, and use that to protect you against energy damage. Greater invisibility and blink are also great defensive spells besides triggering sneak attacks. But I'd probably avoid other defensive spells as it does consume a turn to cast them when you could be killing a monster instead. Wands do tend to be weaker than your spells, but if there's a special ability that lets you sneak attack twice in a round with wands instead of once, that could give more damage overall.

Rapid metamagic + quicken spell could also give you a second sneak attack each round. You may want to take a look at metamagic rods (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicEmpower) to buy instead of or in addition to metamagic feats. Lesser extend is my favorite b/c it's cheap, but you may be more interested in lesser empowered or normal empowered. Some rods are a bit pricey though. Beyond that and the feats I already discussed, hopefully someone else will help you with your feat selection.

Whyte_Widow
2010-03-04, 09:04 PM
Pick up a dusty rose prism ioun stone for another +1 AC for only 5,000 gp. You can get resist energy or protection from energy as one of your spells, and use that to protect you against energy damage. Greater invisibility and blink are also great defensive spells besides triggering sneak attacks. But I'd probably avoid other defensive spells as it does consume a turn to cast them when you could be killing a monster instead. Wands do tend to be weaker than your spells, but if there's a special ability that lets you sneak attack twice in a round with wands instead of once, that could give more damage overall.

Rapid metamagic + quicken spell could also give you a second sneak attack each round. You may want to take a look at metamagic rods (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicEmpower) to buy instead of or in addition to metamagic feats. Lesser extend is my favorite b/c it's cheap, but you may be more interested in lesser empowered or normal empowered. Some rods are a bit pricey though. Beyond that and the feats I already discussed, hopefully someone else will help you with your feat selection.

she is almost always invis. as a rule of thumb. especially in battles. our rogue has two rogue blades as well giving him blink during battles as well. i didnt see a good point to having blur in my arsenal due to having improved invis already.

i think i may go back and take scorch ray as well. i think this wings of flurry as a lvl 4 spell. and wings of cover for an additional defense. GM is going to be giving my character the dragonblooded trait as well.

should i bother with an arcane thesis spell?

Whyte_Widow
2010-03-05, 04:03 PM
bump!:smallredface:

faceroll
2010-03-05, 04:44 PM
I recommend getting rapid metamagic and energy substitution: acid. Orb of fire is great, but there are a lot of fire immune things out there. Check out picking up two levels unseen seer. You need the ability to cast two divination spells (hope you got true strike and detect magic), and some skills you should probably already have. 1st level gives you +1 sneak attack die (yay!), and 2nd level gets you silent spell AND an extra divinination spell known from ANY list. This means you can sneak attack undead with Grave Strike, or get something else cool.

Oh, a first level sorc/wiz spell you may want to pick up (in a wand would be fine), is Sniper's Shot. No range limit on your next sneak attack. Combine with a very long range touch attack spell for coolness.


Oh yeah, definitely. Ask your DM very, very nicely if you can change your Arcane Trickster levels (and maybe even some of your rogue levels) to Spellwarp Sniper from Comp. Scoundrel. The basics are here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070220a).

Or just start taking levels in it, since you qualify.

T&B Arcane Trickster gives him +3d6 sneak attack dice on his second level of it.


Retraining is allowed? There's two feats in Ghostwalk that raise the DCs of your spells. They stack with Spell Focus. Take them over Weapon Finesse (which you don't need, Rays use Dex all ready) and Point Blank Shot (which you don't need unless it's a requirement for Spellwarp Sniper).

Would Ghostwalk count as an add-on book? It seems to be about as rare, if not more rare, than PF. Getting DCs up on a character that does SA damage doesn't seem that important. Precise shot to get rid of the horrible -4 to hit in melee would be the better option.

Whyte_Widow
2010-03-05, 09:17 PM
the unseen seer was a choice at some point. at which point in arcane trickster should i start taking the second PrC? and what are the rules for taking multiple PrCs?

im unsure i would like to lose levels in spells that deal damage. IE non-divination spells. what would the benefit of that be to a SA ray build?

faceroll
2010-03-05, 09:30 PM
the unseen seer was a choice at some point. at which point in arcane trickster should i start taking the second PrC? and what are the rules for taking multiple PrCs?

im unsure i would like to lose levels in spells that deal damage. IE non-divination spells. what would the benefit of that be to a SA ray build?

Take only 2 levels AT and 2 levels US then go back to AT. Your practiced caster will make up for the lost level.

Just checked US. You don't start losing CL until 3rd level.

tyckspoon
2010-03-05, 09:55 PM
im unsure i would like to lose levels in spells that deal damage. IE non-divination spells. what would the benefit of that be to a SA ray build?

If you have access to the Spell Compendium as a source you can use Unseen Seer's Advanced Learning feature to learn any divination spell, regardless of normal class list. That includes Hunter's Eye, normally a Ranger spell, which adds 1d6 Sneak Attack/3 caster levels. It's nearly the defining reason to go for Unseen Seer (it doesn't hurt that Seer uses 3/4 BAB instead of Trickster's 1/2 and offers more skill points, but Hunter's Eye is the big one for your damage output.)

I would swap all of those 4 levels of Trickster for Seer in your current build. You would get 1 more BAB, more skill points, the same Sneak Attack bonus, and your Practiced Spellcaster feat will cover the caster level penalty. Might want to take it to 5 for the next Advanced Learning, as well- there's a number of divinations on the Ranger and Assassin lists that are really nice for Sneak Attackers, like Critical Strike (Swift action cast, your next attack roll ignores concealment and can sneak attack concealed targets) and Vital Strike (again, Swift, your next attack roll qualifies for Sneak Attack even if your target is not flanked or flat-footed.)

Draz74
2010-03-05, 09:55 PM
My previous DM still used accidentally-hit-your-ally-when-firing-into-melee rules, too, and generally forgot that it was a houserule.

Wonder why this, of all the 3.0 (or 2e) rules, proved so tenacious ...

faceroll
2010-03-05, 10:05 PM
If you have access to the Spell Compendium as a source you can use Unseen Seer's Advanced Learning feature to learn any divination spell, regardless of normal class list. That includes Hunter's Eye, normally a Ranger spell, which adds 1d6 Sneak Attack/3 caster levels. It's nearly the defining reason to go for Unseen Seer (it doesn't hurt that Seer uses 3/4 BAB instead of Trickster's 1/2 and offers more skill points, but Hunter's Eye is the big one for your damage output.)

I would swap all of those 4 levels of Trickster for Seer in your current build. You would get 1 more BAB, more skill points, the same Sneak Attack bonus, and your Practiced Spellcaster feat will cover the caster level penalty. Might want to take it to 5 for the next Advanced Learning, as well- there's a number of divinations on the Ranger and Assassin lists that are really nice for Sneak Attackers, like Critical Strike (Swift action cast, your next attack roll ignores concealment and can sneak attack concealed targets) and Vital Strike (again, Swift, your next attack roll qualifies for Sneak Attack even if your target is not flanked or flat-footed.)

He's playing a 3.0 Arcane Trickster. The second level of AT gives him an additional +3d6 sneak attack.

tyckspoon
2010-03-05, 10:17 PM
He's playing a 3.0 Arcane Trickster. The second level of AT gives him an additional +3d6 sneak attack.

It's the same as the 3.5 class, the Sneak Attack chart is just worded a little more sensibly in the 3.5 printing. The 3.0 version simply shows your absolute Sneak Attack value from your levels of Trickster + the 2d6 required to get in (check the actual text entry for it, which says 'extra damage increases by 1d6 every 2 levels'.) Both Trickster and Seer advance Sneak Attack by 2d6 over 4 levels.

Edit: Oh, you meant doing Trickster 2/Seer 2 over Seer 4. Yeah, that would give the Sneak Attack a little bit faster, at least, but the total result is the same.

Whyte_Widow
2010-03-05, 11:59 PM
i cannot trade levels of AT. but, i think i will go take the unseen seer for the hunters eye trick. sounds right up her alley. as we do have access to the SC... all i can do is redo a few extra spells and feats and call it a day.

Whyte_Widow
2010-03-06, 12:05 AM
He's playing a 3.0 Arcane Trickster. The second level of AT gives him an additional +3d6 sneak attack.

this was the general understanding when taking the class. at the time the choice was made we had only the 3.0 books available to us. our book arsenal has increased 10 fold. our generous GM has allowed the 3.0 ruleset to stand because of the decision to take it initially. it was in my favor and i am greatful. however as we progress closer to twenty i want to squeese as much as i can out of the build... as i do believe he wants to take this campaign to an epic level of sorts. i just want to be fully equipped to be able to deal with what is being brought upon us.

i think the unseen seer was the ticket i was looking for. just need to get the proper feats in shape.

Whyte_Widow
2010-03-08, 01:22 AM
Today i took the unseen seer PrC. but, also updated my arcane trickster levels to 3.5. this dropped my sneak attack to 3d6 (+1d6 for the Unseen Seer class) so 4d6 respectively. next level ill take hunters eye as my extra div spell. and get that handy silent spell.

feats

empower
spell pen
greater spell pen
reach spell
point blank shot
practiced spellcaster

sorc 6/rogue3/arcane trickster 3/unseen seer 1

dont think im going to retrain feats. we clarified that the point blank shot just doesnt give you the negative 4 to hit while engaged. rarely does she miss with her touch attacks anyway so im not terribly concerned with it for now.

Optimystik
2010-03-08, 07:36 AM
dont think im going to retrain feats.

I still say the spell penetration line is unnecessary - if you ever come up against an enemy with high SR you have orbs to deal with them. A better option is Rapid Metamagic, plus Quicken, Fell Drain, or Energy Substitution.

If you're allowed to retrain feats at all, strongly consider doing so.

Whyte_Widow
2010-03-08, 02:10 PM
rapid metamagic and fell drain i think would be my best bets for the time being. get another feat @ 15 as well. ill see what i can do to retrain feats.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-08, 02:14 PM
I actually say go with a Duskblade on the other end of the rogue levels (I await the hate mail), because you can imbue any touch spell onto your arrows (ie: flesh to x) then take Leviathin Slayer (forgot what book its in) which apparently makes allows you to treat huge + monsters as medium for the effects of spells

Whyte_Widow
2010-03-08, 02:19 PM
duskblade as a class has been ruled out @ the table. unfortunately.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-08, 02:21 PM
duskblade as a class has been ruled out @ the table. unfortunately.

Dang. Have you guys already seen my buddy's "Flesh to Ice Anything" build or something? ;p

Whyte_Widow
2010-03-08, 02:31 PM
my gm was considering playing one in another campaign and just said he wont allow them in his game. they are, if built properly, game breaking. :-P

tyckspoon
2010-03-08, 04:50 PM
my gm was considering playing one in another campaign and just said he wont allow them in his game. they are, if built properly, game breaking. :-P

.. Duskblades? I mean.. ok, anything is game breaking for a certain value of game breaking, but you're talking about a class whose primary feature is casting an evocation at somebody while hitting them with a sword. It's pretty effective when everybody is doing single attacks because you can effectively use 2 offensive acts at once, but when you're combining two weaker options at high levels you usually don't get game-breaking... (although you may not be aware/have houserule changed that officially a Full Attack channeled spell still only hits any single target once. Duskblade damage is much higher when you let them smack somebody four times + Polar Ray the same dude 4 times in the same full attack.)

Volkov
2010-03-08, 05:02 PM
Well in that case, orb Of.

EDIT: Doesn't Meteor Swarm have an attack roll?

Yes if you specifically target someone, and if you hit, they get no save at all. Which means those pesky people with evasion and improved evasion are going to have a harder time. Of course, zapping them with an maximized disintegrate works better.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-08, 05:51 PM
.. Duskblades? I mean.. ok, anything is game breaking for a certain value of game breaking, but you're talking about a class whose primary feature is casting an evocation at somebody while hitting them with a sword. It's pretty effective when everybody is doing single attacks because you can effectively use 2 offensive acts at once, but when you're combining two weaker options at high levels you usually don't get game-breaking... (although you may not be aware/have houserule changed that officially a Full Attack channeled spell still only hits any single target once. Duskblade damage is much higher when you let them smack somebody four times + Polar Ray the same dude 4 times in the same full attack.)


Can't they do that at level 13+.

They can full attack channel, which with multiple attack boosters(haste, natural attacks, etc). you can get some decent damage.