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Swordguy
2010-03-04, 03:38 PM
I'm getting to play in a Pathfinder game soon, and my GM has basically dared me to play a classic optimized Wizard. It's not at all my forte, but what the heck, y'know?

So, below is the character build. It's a dice-rolled PC (so it's probably something like a 40-point stat line), and a major long-term focus for the character is going to be battlefield control and summoning, especially the later spells such as Planar Binding and Gate, although Monster Summoning is also going to be a major focus (although I'm aware that it's not a big, Logic Ninja/Saph-approved thing).

Other party members include a horrifically unoptimized Dwarf TWF Ranger (by a player who will violently resist optimization), a highly optimized Elf Rogue, a Human Cavalier build solely for mounted combat, and a potential member whose character class is TBA, but who evidently plays clerics almost exclusively.

Known house rules in play which affect me:
1) I must be Human. Plot reasons
2) Evocation may NOT be a restricted school
3) Wizards are a 4+Int mod skill class, not 2+Int.
4) All players get three bits of random treasure to start the game
5) EVERYTHING rounds up, irrespective of what's listed in a given rule. So, for example, my Summoner's Charm ability rounds up, not down as listed in the RAW.


Human Wizard 1 (True Neutral)
Favored Class: Wizard (+1 skill point option)

Specialization: Conjuration
Restricted Schools: Enchantment, Necromancy. Before you say it, let me repeat: The DM will NOT allow evocation to be a restricted school! Trust me, I've already tried...

Str: 9/-1
Dex: 14/+2
Con: 15/+2
Int: 19/+4
Wis: 10/+0
Cha:16/+3

HP: 8 (Hit Die: d6)
AC: 12 (10+2[Dex])
Speed: 30 ft/round
Initiative: +2 (+2 Dex)

FORT: +3
REF: +3
WIL: +3

Attacks:
-Dagger (-1 melee, 1d4-1 dmg, 20/x2)
-Staff (-1 melee, 1d6-1 dmg, 20/x2)
-Wand of Acid Arrow CL3 (+2 Ranged Touch Attack, 540' range, 2d4 acid for 2 rounds)

Skills: Fly +7; Knowledge(Arcana) +8; Knowledge(History) +8; Knowledge(Planes) +8; Knowledge(Religion) +8; Linguistics +8; Perception +4; Spellcraft +12; Use Magic Device +4

Languages: Common, Abyssal, Celestial, Infernal, Orc, Goblin

Feats: Spell Focus (Conjuration); Augment Summoning; Scribe Scroll

Special Abilities: Summoner's Charm (Su), Acid Dart (Sp).

Gear: Cloak of Resistance +1, Wand of Acid Arrow CL3 (50 charges), Heavy Wooden Spiked Shield +1, MW Spellcraft Tools (+2 to Spellcraft), Spellbook, Spell Component Pouch, Signet Ring, Scrollcase (x4), Backpack w/Bedroll, 5 candles, Inkpot&pen, spare Spell Component Pouch, 10gp, 8sp, 2cp

Spells in spellbook: 0-level: Acid splash, Arcane Mark, Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Flare, Ghost Sound, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Read Magic, Resistance
1st-level: Color Spray, Grease, Identify, Mage Armor, Protection from Evil, Summon Monster I, Silent Image

Spells/Day
0-level: 3 (In PF, unmetamagicked 0-level spells do not expend a spell slot when cast)
1st-level: 2+1 Conjuration Spell


So, here's the questions for the playground. Anything you see that needs work? I've read Saph's Guide to PF and I'm aware on the views on Summoning expressed there - this is a sole place where I'm willing to allow RP to override optimization. For reference, I've also read the following: Treantmonk's Guide to being a God, and LogicNinja's Guide.

Secondly, the magic loot you see is random stuff the DM is giving out prior to game start. You'll note that there's a Heavy Wooden Spiked Shield +1 on there...I have the opportunity to trade it to an NPC for one of the following: copy any 4 1st-level scrolls into my spellbook, a minor Ring of Spell Storing (3 spell levels), or a 1st-level Pearl of Power. Which to take, the Ring or the 4 Spells?

Saph
2010-03-04, 03:52 PM
A Ring of Spell Storing is massively more valuable than a 1st-level Pearl of Power or any 4 low-level spells. Grab the ring. :)

Summoning isn't a bad strategy or anything, it's just that Clerics and Druids are usually better placed to use it. However, at levels 1-2 it's of limited use - the critter just doesn't last long enough. Rely on Colour Spray, Enlarge Person and Grease instead. Once you hit level 3 the summons will last long enough to be effective. The Wand of Acid Arrow will also make you much, much more powerful at low levels, allowing you to not worry about running out of spells.

Likewise, having Evocation as one of your schools isn't a bad deal at low levels - it lets you use Flaming Sphere, which in core PF is now one of the best 2nd-level spells (note that the previous staples, Glitterdust and Alter Self, have been heavily nerfed).

Skill-wise, I wouldn't bother with Fly just yet. Put 1 rank in all the Knowledge skills instead. That way you get the +3 trained bonus to all of them.

Necromancy and Enchantment are good choices of banned schools. Both are fairly specialised, and you can live without each of them. The only other choice is Illusion, which just fits far too well with summoning creatures for you to drop it.

Feats-wise, you're fairly set. Toughness might be worth grabbing at some point, or you could go for the item crafting route.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Wings of Peace
2010-03-04, 04:08 PM
Under Pathfinder rules can you trade a familiar for ACFs still? I'm unfamiliar with the rules but if you can, Abrupt Jaunt would be thematic since you already have Spell Focus: Conjuration.

Lysander
2010-03-04, 04:22 PM
Yeah, go for the ring. Listed price is 18,000gp which is insanely good for a first level character. 1st level Pearl of Power meanwhile is worth just 1,000gp.

I'm not that familiar with Pathfinder, but as for language choices maybe you should take elvish? Never know when you're going to meet an elven mage you want to bargain for spells with.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-03-04, 04:23 PM
Since all Monster Summoning spells last 1 round per level, is it at all useful on level 1? Get another spell instead of Summon Monster I. Maybe Unseen Servant? You can get SMI on level 2, so the poor dire rat at least gets to attack twice.

What's with the Fly skill? Can't it wait until further levels?

Get a crossbow (no STR penalty to attacks and damage!).

taltamir
2010-03-04, 04:35 PM
1. get rid of the dagger and staff, carry a longspear instead (reach means AoO). Also, a crossbow... at level 1 you are just as good an archer as the fighter and still don't have many worthwhile spells.
2. spell school focus? why? collegiate wizard is a must! at least take spell penetration or a metamagic feat. (sure you can't use it NOW, but will need it later. Quicken is always a good choice)
3. can you focus specialize in pathfinder?

Volkov
2010-03-04, 04:37 PM
Wizards absolutely suck at level 1, emphasis on SUCK. Try to stay alive and try to pump up your Int and Con scores. Maybe your Dex score as well. Either that or pray for good rolls.

Saph
2010-03-04, 04:42 PM
2. spell school focus? why? collegiate wizard is a must! at least take spell penetration or a metamagic feat. (sure you can't use it NOW, but will need it later. Quicken is always a good choice)

Spell Focus is a prerequisite for Augment Summoning. Collegiate Wizard is Complete Arcane, not Pathfinder. Quicken's useless at level 1, so I wouldn't recommend it. Toughness is probably more useful than Spell Penetration at level 1 (note that PF Toughness gives you the best out of 3.5's Toughness or Complete Warrior's Improved Toughness).


3. can you focus specialize in pathfinder?

Nope.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-04, 04:43 PM
Give your (raven) familiar the wand and have it acid arrow while you disable stuff. I'm assuming it's non-core, otherwise trade it away. Be very afraid at early levels if the GM is out to get you. once you hit 5th though, it's all golden.

taltamir
2010-03-04, 04:51 PM
Spell Focus is a prerequisite for Augment Summoning. Collegiate Wizard is Complete Arcane, not Pathfinder. Quicken's useless at level 1, so I wouldn't recommend it. Toughness is probably more useful than Spell Penetration at level 1 (note that PF Toughness gives you the best out of 3.5's Toughness or Complete Warrior's Improved Toughness).

I explicitly SAID that quicken is useless in level 1... i also said that you WILL need it eventually, so if you have no better feat to take, take it early. (most feats have prereqs that make them unavailable at level 1... and you want to take those at higher levels).

I like to plan ALL feats I will take from level 1 through 20 (and all levels for that matter).
when I level up I just copy paste it from "feats to be taken at level X" to "feats taken"

I know collegiate is from complete arcanna, I am asking if it is also available in pathfinder.

augment summoning is pretty useless at level 1 as well. your celestial hawk isn't gonna suck less when augmented. granted it will eventually be good...

Volkov
2010-03-04, 04:57 PM
Give your (raven) familiar the wand and have it acid arrow while you disable stuff. I'm assuming it's non-core, otherwise trade it away. Be very afraid at early levels if the GM is out to get you. once you hit 5th though, it's all golden.

Unless of course, you meet an legion of 5300 men at arms who all have personal anti-magic fields. Then you sir, are screwed.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-04, 04:58 PM
I explicitly SAID that quicken is useless in level 1... i also said that you WILL need it eventually, so if you have no better feat to take, take it early. (most feats have prereqs that make them unavailable at level 1... and you want to take those at higher levels).

I like to plan ALL feats I will take from level 1 through 20 (and all levels for that matter).
when I level up I just copy paste it from "feats to be taken at level X" to "feats taken"

I know collegiate is from complete arcanna, I am asking if it is also available in pathfinder.

augment summoning is pretty useless at level 1 as well. your celestial hawk isn't gonna suck less when augmented. granted it will eventually be good...

Yes, but quicken is completely unusable for 9 levels. If the campaign doesn't go to 9 it is a wasted feat. And augment summoning provides a minor, but definitely nice boost. Also, pathfinder is basically core with a few changes, so X tactic non-core 99.999% of the time is not available.

Also:

Unless of course, you meet an legion of 5300 men at arms who all have personal anti-magic fields. Then you sir, are screwed.

Psh, did you think I was talking about 3rd level spells as the golden part? Hah! Candle of Invocation, baby!

Saph
2010-03-04, 05:01 PM
I explicitly SAID that quicken is useless in level 1... i also said that you WILL need it eventually, so if you have no better feat to take, take it early. (most feats have prereqs that make them unavailable at level 1... and you want to take those at higher levels).

PF characters have plenty of feats, so you can easily afford to take late game feats later on. At low levels, I think you're better off with stuff like Toughness and Improved Initiative (which are useful at both low levels and high).

Akal Saris
2010-03-04, 08:37 PM
As far as pathfinder summoning goes, here's a feat that my summoning conjurer uses. It's from Curse of the Crimson Throne's Player guide, which is Pathfinder, it's free online, and is legal in PF organized play as well.

New Feat: ACADAMAE GRADUATE
You have passed the grueling Test of Summoning and
graduated from the Acadamae.
Prerequisites: Specialist wizard level 1st; cannot have
conjuration as a forbidden school.
Benefit: Whenever you cast a prepared arcane spell
from the conjuration (summoning) school that takes
longer than a standard action to cast, reduce the casting
time by one round (to a minimum casting time of one
standard action). Casting a spell in this way is taxing and
requires a Fortitude save (DC 15 + spell level) to resist
becoming fatigued.

Basically, it makes summoning a viable tactic by letting you summon a monster and have it attack on the round it's summoned (with a full round of actions rather than a standard from the 3.5 wizard ACF, by the way). Playing a conjurer also means that at 1st level you'll be CL 2 for summoning anyhow - combined with this feat it makes summoning viable enough at low levels, though color spray, grease, and whatnot are still good ideas as well.

I went for a rat familiar for the +2 to fort saves to offset the risk of fatigue. If you have a UMD user in the party or spend a few ranks yourself, a 1st level wand of Lesser Restoration is only 750g if you use the paladin version.

Superglucose
2010-03-04, 08:41 PM
Wizards absolutely suck at level 1, emphasis on SUCK. Try to stay alive and try to pump up your Int and Con scores. Maybe your Dex score as well. Either that or pray for good rolls.
Wrong.

In any case, dump Enchantment (Color Spray = Sleep) and either Necro or Illusion (I would tend towards Necro myself, but Necro has some of the Wizard's super awesome debuffs... I mean Ray of Exhaustion and Ray of Enfeeblement are just so bloody awesome!) if you can't drop Evocation. Abjuration may make it on that list as well... depending on the makeup of your party.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-04, 10:03 PM
Wrong.

In any case, dump Enchantment (Color Spray = Sleep) and either Necro or Illusion (I would tend towards Necro myself, but Necro has some of the Wizard's super awesome debuffs... I mean Ray of Exhaustion and Ray of Enfeeblement are just so bloody awesome!) if you can't drop Evocation. Abjuration may make it on that list as well... depending on the makeup of your party.

Yay, I use an (albeit awesome) cone spell 3 times per day, aaaaand then I'm a commoner. Wizards will be beastly in one combat, maybe 2 if they are conservative and only use spells at the most opportune times.

taltamir
2010-03-04, 11:02 PM
a level 1 commoner is not that much weaker than a level 1 fighter.
slightly less HP, and 5% less chance of hitting. (-1 BAB)

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-04, 11:05 PM
a level 1 commoner is not that much weaker than a level 1 fighter.
slightly less HP, and 5% less chance of hitting. (-1 BAB)

And no feats, armor, or good weapons. And that is assuming you wizard has the same physical stats as a fighter. Quite substantially worse.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-03-04, 11:33 PM
Wait, if everything rounds up, doesn't that mean your 19 int gives you a +5 bonus?

taltamir
2010-03-05, 06:45 AM
And no feats, armor, or good weapons. And that is assuming you wizard has the same physical stats as a fighter. Quite substantially worse.

there aren't that many good martial feats at level 1.
the fighter can't afford good armor at level 1. you can wear said light and cheap armor yourself at level 1 (the penalty is no big deal).
the good weapons is also not yet an issue. longspear and heavy crossbow are both plenty good at level 1.
sure at BAB 5+ the crossbow falls short of the longbow... and...
actually why would anyone give up the reach of longspear for anything but a spiked chain?

Volkov
2010-03-05, 06:48 AM
Wrong.

In any case, dump Enchantment (Color Spray = Sleep) and either Necro or Illusion (I would tend towards Necro myself, but Necro has some of the Wizard's super awesome debuffs... I mean Ray of Exhaustion and Ray of Enfeeblement are just so bloody awesome!) if you can't drop Evocation. Abjuration may make it on that list as well... depending on the makeup of your party.

I've tried that. It doesn't seem to work to well against a hundred armed gnolls.

2xMachina
2010-03-05, 07:04 AM
Chain spell. Add Split Ray or other metamagic through rod.

Watch as a single target spell becomes a mass target spell.

Volkov
2010-03-05, 07:27 AM
Chain spell. Add Split Ray or other metamagic through rod.

Watch as a single target spell becomes a mass target spell.

And any sane DM would give you this at level one why?

Tyndmyr
2010-03-05, 09:54 AM
Just read the OP, so apologies for any duplications.

1. Take the ring of spell storing. It will remain useful long after the first level spells and pearl of power are forgotten about, and it's also useful for combat endurance now.

2. Specialize. Low level pathfinder games provide very little reason NOT to specialize.

3. Remember that you can have an item familiar for an additional spell. IIRC, it's a spont one. Do this.

4. Remember, humans are favored class(any). In your case, Any means wizard. This results in a bonus skill point or hit point per level. I suggest hit point in early levels. I mean, you already have 9 skill points per level as is.

5. If retraining is allowed, toughness is actually not a bad first level feat.

Caphi
2010-03-05, 12:24 PM
Late to the party: You can't put any ranks in Fly unless you have a means of flying you can use consistently, such as shapeshifting, the fly spell, or a natural fly speed.

Tyndmyr
2010-03-05, 02:09 PM
I would probably move that skill point to hide, actually. Sure, you likely won't be great at hiding anytime soon, but it's a darned useful skill, and cross class isn't a big deal in PF. Plus, if you aren't spotted, you won't be killed.

I would also drop summon monster 1 for a nuke. HP damage is fairly effective at early levels, and summon monster 1 is not. The summons are just too weak, agumented or no.

Also, pick up a heavy crossbow at the first opportunity. There's really no reason not to.

2xMachina
2010-03-05, 02:13 PM
And any sane DM would give you this at level one why?

Thought you meant the Ray of Exhaustion and Ray of Enfeeblement are useless cause you can't use them against a hundred armed gnolls.

Just saying that single target spells can work against lots of mooks too.

Ladorak
2010-03-05, 02:18 PM
And any sane DM would give you this at level one why?

But a sane DM would throw a hundred armed gnolls at you at level 1?

SartheKobold
2010-03-05, 06:32 PM
Bob The Stupid Wizard, for sure... Sell your spellbook for the 3000something gp, but a pack of trained wardogs and dominate early levels until you can buy your spellbook back. Or, if you're evil and can get away with it, kill the person you sold it to with your WARDOGS!

Retarded: Yes. But still a powerful tactic in a lvl 1 game...

No, seriously though: Conjuration Specialist; drop Enchantment and Necromancy. Also, learn a lot of buff spells to use on your summoned friends. It burns a round of their usefulness, but buffs can be disproportionately powerful on summoned creatures...

Not a whole lot can be done at 1st level, but you get some nice PF stuff for specializing. Also, that ring of Spell Storing is obviously the best choice for items...

Volkov
2010-03-05, 06:34 PM
Thought you meant the Ray of Exhaustion and Ray of Enfeeblement are useless cause you can't use them against a hundred armed gnolls.

Just saying that single target spells can work against lots of mooks too.

How many would one be able to take out before they ran out of spells?