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valadil
2010-03-04, 03:47 PM
Hey. I'm actually kind of embarassed by this question because it seems pretty basic, but I'm having trouble coming up with good skill challenges. (SCs are 4e specific, but I think this problem transcends systems).

A piece of advice that I've seen repeated quite frequently is that you should only roll the dice if both success and failure are interesting. Awesome advice, I totally agree with it. The problem is in applying it.

A locked door is not that interesting. If you succeed you go through. If you fail you try again. That's the situation they're trying to avoid, I think. If taking 20 makes you succeed, don't make the PCs roll.

But I'm having a rough time coming up with skill checks that do this. It's obvious for social skills. But physical ones don't work as well, at least for me. Here are a few ways I can think of to make the locked door failure interesting.

Door was an optional room that provided only loot/info. Door lets PCs bypass combat. Door lets players escape from threat. Players reaching destination is time sensitive.


I don't think my players would want to bypass combat. They'd rather have the fight than mitigate it. Escaping a threat can be the same way. I guess if it's an environmental threat (room filling with lava) they pretty much have to do the check.

I'm not about to make lists for each of the other skills, but I think phyical barriers will work the same way. Passing the barrier lets you do something optional, bypass a fight (or gain advantage in next fight), escape a threat, or achieve a goal more quickly. And that's where I'm stuck. I've got 4 generic outcomes for what happens on a failed skill check. That's just boring. If I alternate between those 4 and even come up with a few one time use specific options, I'm still going to bore myself, not to mention my players.

So, playgrounders who are more creative (or simply suffering from less writer's block) than myself, how do you write skill challenges that are interesting on success or failure? Bonus points for examples. Lots of bonus points for examples that have degrees of failure giving different results. As I mentioned before, I'm more interested in physical challenges than social ones, but don't let that limit your examples, as I'm sure there are other posters who could benefit from them.

Thanks!

Dr Bwaa
2010-03-04, 04:02 PM
Doesn't Dungeonscape or something have rules for 3.5 skill encounters?

EDIT: I'm thinking of Encounter Traps. Maybe citiscape?

valadil
2010-03-05, 10:12 AM
jackattack,

The thing is, both of your examples fall into the SC to escape threat category. I guess the lock one is a different kind of threat because the players can choose to ignore it entirely. But I still see them as the same type of challenge. Something is causing damage to the party, beat the skill check quickly or you'll take more damage.

I do agree with your point about letting players find other ways around locked doors. Maybe I should treat these barriers as make a skill check or improvise another way around?

Mercenary Pen
2010-03-05, 11:11 AM
Dunno whether this fits the bill, but a specific idea I've had for a skill challenge was this:

The border patrol
Your party happens upon a level-appropriate (plus or minus however many levels seem appropriate) patrol unit, defending a pass that is difficult to bypass. Leading the patrol are two knights, one old and corrupt, the other youthful and idealistic. The objective here is to convince both knights to let you past.

Haven't worked out skills and successes/failures yet, because I've been in no position to run this, but it would work best with the group already under time pressure (or other similar difficulties) to explain why they can't just go the long way around.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-03-05, 11:19 AM
The lock is linked to a trap -- failure to pick the lock activates the trap, opening the door disarms (or resets) the trap. Maybe every failure causes the far wall to slide toward the wall with the door. Maybe every failure causes a foot of water to pour into the room. Maybe every failure causes the knob to give the rogue a nasty electrical shock.
My personal favorite: There's a big Ogre in the room, and for every failure, he whacks a random character with his club (+8 melee), dealing 2d8+7 damage on a hit.

Lysander
2010-03-05, 11:26 AM
There's always social skill challenges. For example, opposed perform checks with a rival entertainer to win a crowd's favor, or diplomacy checks to gain a dragon's trust.

Open Lock is primarily useful in stealth missions. You might only have a few seconds to open a door before guards come around around, and breaking down the door would be too loud and alert them immediately.

I think a good rule of thumb with skills is that they shouldn't be absolutely necessary, just really damn useful and provide an advantage the party otherwise wouldn't have. For example, the party can steal a big heavy artifact by carrying it down the stairs, fighting past waves of guards. Or they can just lower it down to ground level with Use Rope. The party can travel through the mountain pass by a road commonly ambushed by bandits. Or they can climb to higher terrain and ambush the bandits themselves.

Jerthanis
2010-03-05, 02:36 PM
My favorite I ever saw in action was an investigation skill challenge where each successful skill check (Streetwise, intimidate, history, ect) revealed a clue about the final mystery, so if you were clever you could solve the mystery without even passing every skill check... and if you got 3 failures it wasn't an awkward, "you fail completely and the quest is over or it never mattered if you succeeded because the plot progresses anyway" that I've seen in some investigation related stuff.

If you failed, you were attacked by a group of thugs/assassins who allowed a completely new avenue of inquiry into the plot.

Fallbot
2010-03-05, 02:42 PM
That is an excellent idea, and one I fully intend to either steal for myself or thrust under the DM's nose.

Yorrin
2010-03-05, 02:48 PM
An interesting take on the "Open a Door" challenge is to have the door open onto different rooms depending on the success/failure of various skills. For example, your Arcanist might identify that it's a magic door, then a character with Thievery (if I remember the 4e skills correctly) might have to use his nimble fingers to adjust a destination determination device. And someone with sharp senses can try and figure out what's on the other side before the door is opened. If your Arcanist fails the party doesn't get the chance to go to awesome new locations. If your thief fails your muscle-bound fellow might try and force the device physically. And whoever is trying to determine what's on the other side determines if the party is ready for whatever challenge they're about to face beyond the portal.

Lysander
2010-03-05, 02:59 PM
Also remember when Open Lock is used in movies and films. It's only used in two circumstances really:

A) To illegally enter a home or office to look for clues. Picking the lock is effortless and mainly done just to show how cool the character is.
B) To crack a safe during an elaborate and dangerous heist.

So don't just have random doors and chests as open lock challenges. That kind of thing should have an easy lock and a really tough trap to disable. Instead use Open Lock as mostly a roleplaying thing for the rogue to show off his skills, or as a timed challenge against a monstrous lock that opens an adamantium vault.

Draz74
2010-03-05, 03:04 PM
Getting lost (or not) in the wilderness was the basic idea of most of the best skill challenges I've seen.

valadil
2010-03-05, 03:14 PM
Also remember when Open Lock is used in movies and films. It's only used in two circumstances really:


Except that if a player takes a skill I want to give them the chance to show it off. I don't need to do this every session, but they shouldn't have to be robbing a bank or breaking and entering in order to use it.

-edit-

I'm not trying to be contrary. I just want to support PCs who don't want to be bank robbers :-P I agree that lockpicking is of limited usefulness from a dramatic narrative POV.

Mercenary Pen
2010-03-05, 06:27 PM
Considering we're primarily working with 4e, the skill in question isn't gonna be Open Lock, it'll be thievery (unless there are house rules we're not aware of). Thievery, by comparison with Open Lock, is a much broader skill, with obvious applications in trapmaking, trapfinding, etc. However, you might also use Thievery as an informational skill in a pinch- for example a private investigator or local law enforcement officer might use the thievery skill to work out how a crime was committed, to spot forged currency, or- at a harder DC- to spot where evidence has been tampered with.

Perhaps the best form of skill challenge for not seeming out of place to your players is the informational variety, the results of which should be what your players use to determine their next moves. For example, did the paladin trained in history spend time poring through dusty tomes in the lord's record-room to pick up a vital clue? Did the Warlock trained in streetwise shake down the local gossips and find out about the strange movements of illicit goods outside of town? Did the Arcana and Religion specialists use their skills to discover the dire portents and prognostications that flashed through the heavens every time the name of the BBEG was mentioned? Things like that all come together to build up a picture that leads your PC's in one direction or another- possibly directing them down a side quest connected to the main quest, possibly leading them into something unrelated, at the end of which more concrete evidence might become available.

valadil
2010-03-05, 11:57 PM
I guess I don't understand the question. You seemed to be asking for a different fail result (other than nothing happens) and for alternative physical challenges (by which I thought you meant alternative skill checks) but that's not actually what you want.


I think that's because I failed at explaining the question. I didn't really know what I was asking until midway through the question. Probably should have gone for a rewrite at that point.

Basically when I try to write consequences for failures they take on one of four forms.

Impending danger gets closer - The poison gas spreads, water level rises, lava flows in from the ceiling, more skeletons start rising, etc. If you don't escape you lose HP.

Bypass a fight - The secret passage lets the PCs go around a fight. Maybe this means they skip it. Maybe it means they have better terrain during the fight.

Optional - The players skip loot or skip a hint.

Time sensitive destination - The bad guy gets away. The druid's father succombs to poison. The other adventuring party reaches and slays the dragon first. The princess starves to death in her castle prison.

All the failure results I come up with boil down to one of those 4 options. That's not enough and I'm looking for more general options. I can come up with new ways to reflavor an escape SC all day long, but in the end I know I'm running the same threat with different stats and different flavor.

Telok
2010-03-06, 03:37 AM
My problem with skill challenges is how to implement them so that more than two people in the party can try them.

Try something between your Optional and Time Sensitive ones. A Bodyguard/Rescue outcome. Once the players have found/saved the person or thing they must then move or protect it for an amount of time. Every two failures brings on another attack/encounter aimed at the protected target, every two days without enough successes equals a failure. In this case no number of failed checks directly causes the challenge to fail, but puts the party in danger of failing. Likewise no set number of checks will directly succeed, they just make it easier.

Countdown, call it a countdown effect. Try that.

I'm happy you can use skill challenges though, our group can't seem to get the hang of them anyway we try. Probably it's our player mix, we have one person pretty much uninterested in anything but fights, one fruitcake who also isn't interested in anything but fights, and one character (not the player's fault this time) who only dares to try Atheltics and Endurance checks.

I am playing this time but I have looked at SCs for when I DM next. To me the skills fall into four categories, social (chr), knowledge (int/wis), physical (dex,str,con), and senses (perception & insight). Most, not all but most, challenges fall almost entirely into one category. It seems that most of the time only two characters of our six person group have the approprate skills trained or statted, and those characters have the skills both trained and as a main stat. So either my DCs are trivially easy and the untrained people back off or stall while the trained ones lay waste to the challenge, or I challenge the trained ones while the untrained try to stall so that they don't make the challenge fail.

Mabey I could give everyone the jack of all trades feat for free. That might help, and you can't break 4e with skills anyways.

Kalirren
2010-03-06, 03:53 AM
Agreeing with Mercenary Pen here that you should frame skill challenges in terms of successes rather than failures. Skill challenges, in my experience, are ill used in lieu of a combat, or as a tension device in and of themselves. They're better used to narrow down and frame the conflict so that when it does devolve into combat, the PCs recognize that the skills got them there.

Your example of granting an advantage in combat in terms of terrain (like going in through the back door instead of the front) is a good one.

Other example: the PCs have to pass a spellcraft challenge (or ritual casting, whatever it's called in 4e) to devise the spell that suppresses the BBEG's Item of Doom for the duration of the fight.

BobVosh
2010-03-06, 03:57 AM
Skill challenges have seemed neat to me, but poorly implemented. I discovered I only like SC if they meet the following criteria:

1. Take part over a long time, relatively speaking. (A war scene, sailing voyage, trek from A to B where B is far, etc)
2. Failure is an option. Therefore if the PCs fail you don't have to pull worthless crap out.
3. It is interesting, and has a point in A) Amusing, B) Plot.

Never do a skill challenge in the following circumstances:

1. Your plot requires them to succeed.
2. To gather information, it just doesn't work.
3. Required to avoid a fight. If they want to fight a group that would legitimately would give them information if they subdue and question them, let them. Give an option of a SC if they really want to (most of the time they won't. A large RP group won't want the mechanics of a SC to mess up the RP, and a hack & slash group won't want to use a SC to replace a combat)
4. Anytime you can't think of a very good reason for there to be more than one roll to see if they succeed.

That said I have seen SC used well to infiltrate a base in a large scale combat and do strategic skirmishes to reduce leaders/larger threats. Mainly as saboteurs.

Corey
2010-03-06, 05:23 AM
How about skill challenges for secondary benefits? E.g.:

After a successful day of shopping, the PCs have more gear or more gold than they'd have after an unsuccessful day

After a successful morning of schmoozing, the PCs have a well-placed friend who can come in handy for the future. After an unsuccessful day, they'd still have what they need to advance the plot, but w/o the secondary benefit.

After a successful physical infiltration, they can pick some stuff up lying around that could come in handy later (items, clues, whatever).

Opening the door sufficiently quickly and quietly lets them try a total of four passages after they're through, rather than just one, with whatever benefits accrue to that.

Getting in quietly lets them overhear something that sends them off on a more appealing next branch of the adventure than a fight would have.

BobVosh
2010-03-06, 06:40 AM
I would like to amend my lists to include secondary benefits. For, uh, unrelated issues.

tcrudisi
2010-03-06, 08:51 AM
We did one that was a "tournament" skill challenge. Basically, the winner of each mini-tournament got to meet with an important noble who enjoyed watching a specific tournament. For instance, Countess Esmerelda might enjoy watching the foot race, while Baron Picksmynose enjoys watching the drinking competition. Each one has a little bit of different information to give, each giving a clue to as to the overall mystery.

There were quite a few different mini-tournaments. As mentioned, a drinking competition (Endurance), a foot race (Athletics), an archery contest (Acrobatics), a wizards duel (arcana), a gathering contest (nature), etc. In each one, the party could do preparations before the event started. Perhaps in the drinking contest, the rogue could use Thievery to swap his friends drink with colored water. Or he could use Intimidate to convince everyone that his friend just won the drinking contest at the local dwarf city just a few days ago. Each success counts as "aid another", giving a +2 to the person who competes in the contest. However, there's only so much time to prepare, so only a total of +4 can be given (ie -- we don't want you preparing all night long and making the roll trivial). Also, some failures might warrant a -2 instead of a +2 with the aid another (getting caught swapping the ale for water... although you might get a Bluff check to weasel out of it.)

Another skill challenge that I've done was an exorcism. The penalty for failure was having to fight the guy. The skill challenge had several steps that must be accomplished in order. Each step had three (or so) skills associated with it, so there was no "Oh crap, none of us have an appropriate skill). Don't get me wrong -- sometimes using Arcana wasn't as good as Religion -- but at least you could use it. Anyway, it started with a Religion check to notice that the guy was possessed. That gave us the knowledge, also, that there would be an entry point, and we'd have to force the demon out the same way it got in. Then we used Perception to find it, Athletics to hold him down, Arcana (we weren't very good at Religion) to try to force him out. I'm missing a couple of steps because it was a longish skill challenge, but I'm sure you get the idea.