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Devils_Blind
2010-03-04, 04:26 PM
I've had this character in mind for a while. A tiefling that has joined the party, for the outward purpose of trying to redeem himself from his evil ways, by placing himself into the watch of a paladin. His actual goals are to convince the party, as a whole, to fall. No mindrapes, no coercion. Just offers of easy power. It seems like an absolutely, amazingly fun RP character, however, the build is proving troublesome.

Levels 8-13 are filled by Fiend of Corruption, an absolutely amazingly flavorful class I'm dead set on taking. But I'm having trouble finding classes for levels 1-7 that (a) aren't obviously evil (warlock), (b) completely reliant on spells, since FoC gets no spell progression, and (c) maintain a social orientation while still having something to do in combat.

So, playground, any ideas?

Relevant houserules are as follows:
Once a class skill, always a class skill.
A tiefling from Baator will have the evil subtype. (Iffy by RAW)
All books allowed.

Prerequisites that must be met before level 8.
Base Will: +7 (Can by done by multi/prestige-classing two good will save classes)
Bluff: Disguise, Sense Motive: 10 Ranks
Must be able to use charm person or charm monster as a spell or spell-like ability

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-04, 04:28 PM
not sure what the prerequisites are for fiend but as far as your earlyer level, from what you said it sounds like a rogue to be honest? Prolly more on the social end.

I would prolly go rogue or spell thief depending on if you want some arcane.

AtwasAwamps
2010-03-04, 04:30 PM
Holy god, just reading your post makes me want to smite your character. Yeeesh...

If you don't want to cast, rogue is always a good choice for a sneaky type, even factotum to get a lot of clever little tricks on board. Something like that...

Devils_Blind
2010-03-04, 04:44 PM
But neither rogues nor factotums have good will saves, which means the most that could be afforded is a one level dip. (Without taking more than three classes by level 7, which is starting to get cheesy in my opinion.) Spellthief could work, but it lacks flavor, and has a really limited scope.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-04, 05:04 PM
I've had this character in mind for a while. A tiefling that has joined the party, for the outward purpose of trying to redeem himself from his evil ways, by placing himself into the watch of a paladin. His actual goals are to convince the party, as a whole, to fall. No mindrapes, no coercion. Just offers of easy power. It seems like an absolutely, amazingly fun RP character, however, the build is proving troublesome.

Levels 8-13 are filled by Fiend of Corruption, an absolutely amazingly flavorful class I'm dead set on taking. But I'm having trouble finding classes for levels 1-7 that (a) aren't obviously evil (warlock), (b) completely reliant on spells, since FoC gets no spell progression, and (c) maintain a social orientation while still having something to do in combat.

So, playground, any ideas?

Relevant houserules are as follows:
Once a class skill, always a class skill.
A tiefling from Baator will have the evil subtype. (Iffy by RAW)
All books allowed.

Prerequisites that must be met before level 8.
Base Will: +7 (Can by done by multi/prestige-classing two good will save classes)
Bluff: Disguise, Sense Motive: 10 Ranks
Must be able to use charm person or charm monster as a spell or spell-like ability

Um, warlocks aren't obviously evil. You can be a CG warlock.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-03-04, 05:12 PM
Um, warlocks aren't obviously evil. You can be a CG warlock.

Damn, beat me to it. A Wizard or Beguiler (PHB2) would work well for this, OP. Fluff and crunch are not that closely related, as long as you take all the relevant mechanics (including drawbacks and weaknesses) reflavouring should not cause a problem (I assume).

Devils_Blind
2010-03-04, 05:15 PM
Um, warlocks aren't obviously evil. You can be a CG warlock. Tiefling, with the evil and lawful subtypes (from being born on Baator). While its possible by the rules that he's somehow deriving this power from fey ancestors, its gonna stretch his credibility far beyond what I can probably expect of anyone.

And I love the idea of a beguiler. I just run into the problem of the lost spellcasting levels after 6. (Needing to take a second class to boost the will save to +7). I'm not that familiar with how a beguiler actually works in combat. Will the loss of higher level spells be a big problem?

Thalnawr
2010-03-04, 05:18 PM
How about a bard? The -2 charisma from Tiefling hurts, but you get all the required class skills and a good will save progression.

Edit:Although I guess the fact that bards can't be lawful might turn you off to that. Nothing's saying that tieflings have to be lawful though, even with a Baator heritage...

ScionoftheVoid
2010-03-04, 05:26 PM
Tiefling, with the evil and lawful subtypes (from being born on Baator). While its possible by the rules that he's somehow deriving this power from fey ancestors, its gonna stretch his credibility far beyond what I can probably expect of anyone.

And I love the idea of a beguiler. I just run into the problem of the lost spellcasting levels after 6. (Needing to take a second class to boost the will save to +7). I'm not that familiar with how a beguiler actually works in combat. Will the loss of higher level spells be a big problem?

Tieflings are usually born on the Material Plane. Yours needn't be but still. You don't have to have an explicit power source and if you have made a pact with a devil, as long as it was a one time power grows with you deal, you can always be non-evil and non-lawful later. Or even beforehand, Devils don't need to tempt those already their alignment.

Beguiler generally relies on Illusion and Enchantment spells with a smattering of the better spells from other schools, so low save DCs due to low spell levels is going to hurt. It is however Int based so you might get them up to respectable levels. I've not played one before but it seemed almost perfect for the fluff and crunch.

Devils_Blind
2010-03-04, 05:37 PM
How about a bard? The -2 charisma from Tiefling hurts, but you get all the required class skills and a good will save progression.

Edit:Although I guess the fact that bards can't be lawful might turn you off to that. Nothing's saying that tieflings have to be lawful though, even with a Baator heritage...

I thought for a moment that I could get around this with a feat from the Fiendish Codex, but no luck. Though, I might be able to convince my DM to let me play a lawful bard. Devoted performer from the Complete Adventurer even gives some precedent for it... Maybe with a level of paladin of tyranny.

That actually works out pretty well. I'll still need to figure out the other class dips through. Thanks. That works out pretty nicely.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-04, 05:46 PM
“It is not the weapon that is evil, but the wielder.”
—Galena Todrick, hellfire warlock

Even if a warlock gets his powers from fiendish ancestry, he can still be good. If your PC's can tell that he gets his powers from devils, they would also be able to detect his [evil] subtype. Although the lawful subtype does throw a wrench in the plans I suppose. But how would the PC's know a warlock has to be CG or CN without metagaming?

Devils_Blind
2010-03-04, 06:09 PM
“It is not the weapon that is evil, but the wielder.”
—Galena Todrick, hellfire warlock

Even if a warlock gets his powers from fiendish ancestry, he can still be good. If your PC's can tell that he gets his powers from devils, they would also be able to detect his [evil] subtype. Although the lawful subtype does throw a wrench in the plans I suppose. But how would the PC's know a warlock has to be CG or CN without metagaming?
The evil/lawful subtypes are easy to explain. "Generations ago, my grandfather indentured himself to devil X, and my family has since then been trapped in his servitude. It was only through a lucky mis-summoning by a local cabal or devil worshipers (that we should totally hunt down an kill, by the way) that I was able to escape to the material plane. I don't want to waste this chance. Having seen the cruelties of hell, I don't want to go back there. But evil runs in my bloodline, and I can feel it tempting me at every turn. So I'd like to entrust myself to you, paladin/cleric, to oversee that I don't fall back into my evil ways."

They could probably find out about the restrictions through knowledge checks, though the Complete Arcane doesn't actually spell those out like I thought it did. I just want to make his story as air-tight as possible, since even though the other players will know about his nature and background, I want to avoid any opportunity for meta-gaming I can. And the lawful-ness is important to me, just to make sure that if they ask for an oath of loyalty, I have every in character motivation to adhere to the letter, if not the spirit, of the promise.

Geiger Counter
2010-03-04, 06:30 PM
I don't see why you don't just play a rogue or factotum and ask to swap out reflex and will saves, it's not like the character is any more powerful.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-04, 06:36 PM
The evil/lawful subtypes are easy to explain. "Generations ago, my grandfather indentured himself to devil X, and my family has since then been trapped in his servitude. It was only through a lucky mis-summoning by a local cabal or devil worshipers (that we should totally hunt down an kill, by the way) that I was able to escape to the material plane. I don't want to waste this chance. Having seen the cruelties of hell, I don't want to go back there. But evil runs in my bloodline, and I can feel it tempting me at every turn. So I'd like to entrust myself to you, paladin/cleric, to oversee that I don't fall back into my evil ways."

They could probably find out about the restrictions through knowledge checks, though the Complete Arcane doesn't actually spell those out like I thought it did. I just want to make his story as air-tight as possible, since even though the other players will know about his nature and background, I want to avoid any opportunity for meta-gaming I can. And the lawful-ness is important to me, just to make sure that if they ask for an oath of loyalty, I have every in character motivation to adhere to the letter, if not the spirit, of the promise.

But if you used to be evil, then warlock is perfect. You are just even more tempted because you have to use your evil powers to do good. If you are evil (which is rather unclear) warlock is still perfect, because you don't lose your powers when your alignment changes, and the paladin will know anyway. I don't see any problem with it.

Devils_Blind
2010-03-04, 08:28 PM
But if you used to be evil, then warlock is perfect. You are just even more tempted because you have to use your evil powers to do good. If you are evil (which is rather unclear) warlock is still perfect, because you don't lose your powers when your alignment changes, and the paladin will know anyway. I don't see any problem with it.

I am starting to come around to this idea, one calc 3 exam later. And as far as detect evil goes, he could be the holiest of holies and still detect as evil thanks to the evil subtype. Which provides a nice cover since he actually is evil. At least until he gets undetectable alignment by some means. ("The gods are starting to forgive me!") Thanks for the replies, I've got plenty of new food for thought.

Thurbane
2010-03-04, 09:46 PM
Binder from ToM might be a good choice. If so, squeeze in 1 extra level so you can bind 2 vestiges and once (8th level)...