How'd they build that tower?

[delguidance]

I was wondering about the crooked beige tower in Azure City. Do you think that's just gobbo building style? Why isn't it blue?

[Magicyop]

No, it was wrenched from the ground thanks to Xykon's dark magic, revealed by Tsukiko in this comic. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html) It's probably made out of the still screaming reanimated flesh of thousands of children.

Or green rock. Let's go with that.

[Lvl45DM!]

is there a spell that can do that?

[Magicyop]

Maybe a homebrew? Or maybe it's some variation of Mordenkain's Magnificent Mansion. All the Mordenkain spells create a dwelling, of course, if I remember correctly, they are in a pocket dimension and have no exterior. Xykon could have fused multiple spells in a creative way, using one of those freaky flesh molding spells or something.

[Snake-Aes]

Maybe a homebrew? Or maybe it's some variation of Mordenkain's Magnificent Mansion. All the Mordenkain spells create a dwelling, of course, if I remember correctly, they are in a pocket dimension and have no exterior. Xykon could have fused multiple spells in a creative way, using one of those freaky flesh molding spells or something.

Leomund has a chest and a tent, mordekainnen has a sword and disjunction.


That said...there is a level 9 spell that creates a new dimension. Yes, level 17+ arcane casters can create reality. Epics go even crazier.

[Dr.Epic]

Why isn't it blue?

Because that wouldn't anger the Azurites (as much).

[Herald Alberich]

Maybe it's a low-DC homebrew Epic spell. Not really Xykon's style to research Create Skyscraper, but who knows?

[Starscream]

Maybe it's a low-DC homebrew Epic spell. Not really Xykon's style to research Create Skyscraper, but who knows?

I dunno. He's all about style and being as over the top villainous as possible. If you can't lord over your conquered city from an Evil Tower O' Doom, what's the point of bothering? The castle was destroyed in the explosion, and taking over a condominium wouldn't be very cool.

[Herald Alberich]

Point. From that perspective, he'd have named it something more like Create Villainous Lair or some such. Based on Tsukiko's line, a mitigating factor would be desecrated ground.

[iwarriorpoet]

Looks like a dribble castle.

[Draconi Redfir]

just becuse Xylon used magic to rip the tower from the foulest planes of the underworld dose NOT mean that it needs to be an actual D&D spell. you dont need a custom/textbook spell to make a bunch of rocks float in the are and dance for you, so you dont need a textbook spell to do something awsome.

[Magicyop]

Leomund has a chest and a tent, mordekainnen has a sword and disjunction.


That said...there is a level 9 spell that creates a new dimension. Yes, level 17+ arcane casters can create reality. Epics go even crazier.

Pardon, but you're wrong that Mordenkain has no mansion, if we're talking about 3.5.

3.5 Players Handbook, it's a 7th level spell, Mordenkain's Magnificent Mansion, but it is extradimensional. It's basically a pocket dimension mansion held together by the caster. I think I was in a campaign once where we were in a MMM and didn't know it, (the entrance being inside the door to an actual residence) and killed the person who cast it, leading to the pocket dimension collapsing around us.

Is there some non-core spell such as "Masonry" of some sort? Casters have a spell to do almost everything, I'd be surprised if there's not some clever sort of combination that would allow this to happen, without using homebrews or relying on power of plot.

EDIT: I've forgotten, but is there a teleport spell that could teleport large objects? He could have stolen it from somewhere else, even a different plane.

[Asta Kask]

Some Fabricate version?

[Lord_Drayakir]

I dunno. He's all about style and being as over the top villainous as possible. If you can't lord over your conquered city from an Evil Tower O' Doom, what's the point of bothering? The castle was destroyed in the explosion, and taking over a condominium wouldn't be very cool.

Well, unless it was a co-op condo. Then, he wouldn't need to make it evil- IT ALREADY IS!

Also, considering that Xykon already had a tower, it's not impossible to think he has a spell for that. Also, there's a magical item that creates an adamantium tower. Maybe he worked with that, and decided that green rock>adamantium (or at least cheaper).

[Optimystik]

I vote Epic spell, as that wouldn't use up one of his very limited spells known, unlike a researched spell.

It would also give us an idea of the types of things he's researching off camera.


Point. From that perspective, he'd have named it something more like Create Villainous Lair or some such. Based on Tsukiko's line, a mitigating factor would be desecrated ground.

Rich seems fond of ad hoc mitigations, like Mama Dragon's head for Familicide and Dorukan's circlet for Cloister. Judging by the wide empty square around the tower, I would guess that he used some of the previously existing buildings as construction material.

[Da'Shain]

Well, according to the list O-Chul made, Xykon has either Stoneskin or Stone Shape (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html) as a 4th level spell, It's said specifically that it was "wrenched from the unhallowed ground with his dark magic." "Wrenched from" implies that he used the existing stone, so less likely to be an Epic spell or a conjuration of some sort (plus it'd be a really lame Epic spell; "Summon Spindly Tower With Few Defenses and Walls That Blast Apart Easily"?)

It's likely he just used Stone Shape to make it over the course of one of those 8-hour periods where he can't make magic items but isn't asleep. The ground might indeed have been unhallowed by the Dark One's clerics, and any magic Xykon uses can be termed "dark" considering what he is.

[Optimystik]

You can use existing stone just fine with an epic spell - whether via the Transform seed, or just using the Conjure seed with existing stone as a mitigating factor. They can literally do anything.

The other advantage to an epic spell, as I stated, is that he can know as many of them as he's willing to pay for, unlike his lower-level spells.

[Da'Shain]

True, but why waste the money on researching such an Epic spell when you can just use a 4th level spell as much as you want? About the only thing it saves is time, and time is one thing that Xykon's had a surfeit of since they took Azure City (and since his lichification, really).

It also makes sense (to me) since the alternative for his known 4th level spell, Stoneskin, really doesn't help Xykon much since he already has better damage reduction; just about the only thing it'd be useful for is changing what he's vulnerable to if someone comes at him with magic maces. Whereas Stone Shape is the far more versatile spell.

[Optimystik]

True, but why waste the money on researching such an Epic spell when you can just use a 4th level spell as much as you want? About the only thing it saves is time, and time is one thing that Xykon's had a surfeit of since they took Azure City (and since his lichification, really).

It also makes sense (to me) since the alternative for his known 4th level spell, Stoneskin, really doesn't help Xykon much since he already has better damage reduction; just about the only thing it'd be useful for is changing what he's vulnerable to if someone comes at him with magic maces. Whereas Stone Shape is the far more versatile spell.

Because he has a limited capacity for 4th-level spells, and unlimited capacity for epic spells.

Sorcerers pick spells they can spam. How many times a day would he expect to use Stone Shape? That's the kind of thing a Wizard would learn as a one-off, not a sorcerer.

[Hurkyl]

How many times a day would he expect to use Stone Shape?
More than he would expect to use stone skin, given the analysis you're responding to. :smalltongue:


Sorcerers pick spells they can spam.
He has a spammable fourth level spell: maximized magic missile. :smallwink: I fully admit to not being an experienced D&D player -- but I would have imagined an epic sorcerer would be best served by swapping most of his low level known spells for interesting utility spells, as long has he keeps one or two generally useful spells available in a pinch.


Because he has a limited capacity for 4th-level spells, and unlimited capacity for epic spells.
That sounds too much like rules abuse to appear in OotS.

[Starscream]

That sounds too much like rules abuse to appear in OotS.

Yes and no. It's pretty widely accepted that epic magic in general is broken. Expect any campaign that gives it to the players to become really out of control really fast. You'd be better off giving nuclear missiles to chimps.

Basically, with epic magic there is no such thing as "Spells Known". To be able to cast these spells you must first develop them. This is a process that frequently costs hundreds of thousands of gold pieces, tens of thousands of Xp, and usually a few weeks of your time.

And after all that you have that one epic spell.

So while your "capacity" may be unlimited, your resources are not. Usually. In the case of Xykon, he probably has plenty of cash (he sacked an entire city), all the time he needs (immortal) and xp to spare (we don't know his level, but it's probably in the upper 20s).

But like I said above, epic magic is so abusable that you get a lot of bang for your buck. Even a couple such spells can rip the campaign world in two.

[Dr.Epic]

They built that tower on Rock 'n' Roll.

[Da'Shain]

Because he has a limited capacity for 4th-level spells, and unlimited capacity for epic spells.

Sorcerers pick spells they can spam. How many times a day would he expect to use Stone Shape? That's the kind of thing a Wizard would learn as a one-off, not a sorcerer.Yes, but it also costs him absolutely nothing to simply spam this spell, whereas as Hurkyl pointed out it would be lots and lots of money essentially wasted on an Epic spell that he can replicate with just a 4th level spell and a day off.

He has an unlimited capacity for Epic spells known, true, but he doesn't have infinite resources and has already researched at least 3 other epic spells (although he might not have had to research Cloister if he learned it from a scroll or something, not sure how that works) in addition to creating an unknown amount of magic items and buying things like Teevo. And this particular Epic spell would be pretty much useless together with Xykon's standard MO, namely, kill people (preferably wizards) and take over their existing base. Probably the only reason he bothered to create his own tower in Azure City Gobbotopia was because the original castle got utterly destroyed.

And Stone Shape is ridiculously useful and versatile, in my experience. You can use it as an impromptu Passwall, you can seal off a corridor to prevent people from chasing you or escaping, you can make shelters and buildings relatively quickly, and for extra incentive for a sadist like Xykon, you can encase people in stone while they're still fully conscious and watch them squirm. And I'm sure there's plenty of other uses that I'm just not thinking of right off the top of my head. Since we know he has either Stone Shape or Stoneskin, it makes far more sense for him to have selected Stone Shape.

Stone Shape is not only quite useful as an extra trick up his sleeve, but it also provides an outlet for Xykon's boredom, which makes it even more likely for him to have it and have used it.

So while your "capacity" may be unlimited, your resources are not. Usually. In the case of Xykon, he probably has plenty of cash (he sacked an entire city), all the time he needs (immortal) and xp to spare (we don't know his level, but it's probably in the upper 20s).I'd be prepared to bet that Xykon and the hobbo army didn't gain all that much in the way of gold from taking Azure City. Pretty much all the noble houses evacuated pronto, and while I'm sure some stuff got left behind, given the seeming "me first" attitude that the nobles exhibit, gold and valuables were likely given priority over any citizens. I'm sure Xykon's, say, a hundred thousand gp richer, maybe more if he actually took an interest and decided to leave Redcloak and the hobbos with nothing, but I doubt he got enough to fund unlimited Epic spell research, or even all that much of it.

[Optimystik]

Yes, but it also costs him absolutely nothing to simply spam this spell, whereas as Hurkyl pointed out it would be lots and lots of money essentially wasted on an Epic spell that he can replicate with just a 4th level spell and a day off.

You pay the cost for an epic spell once - to research it. Casting it after that, even spamming it, has no cost.


He has an unlimited capacity for Epic spells known, true, but he doesn't have infinite resources and has already researched at least 3 other epic spells (although he might not have had to research Cloister if he learned it from a scroll or something, not sure how that works) in addition to creating an unknown amount of magic items and buying things like Teevo.

As we have no information on what resources he has to spend, none of that information means anything.
A few short trips to the plane of Earth (among other places) can refill his purse easily as well.


And this particular Epic spell would be pretty much useless together with Xykon's standard MO, namely, kill people (preferably wizards) and take over their existing base.

Stone Shape does nothing to further that MO as well, and it carries a much higher price - it is one of only 4 spells he can learn at that level, no matter how powerful he becomes.

And for that matter, Cloister doesn't help him kill people either, but he still learned that.

Finally, even if we assume that the "Sto-" on the spell list in that comic was Stone Shape; even if we assume that he knows it; AND even if we assume that you can use Stone Shape to make an entire multi-room, multi-story tower with windows... None of that proves Stone Shape was the spell he used to create it.

One thing we do know is that an epic spell can make that tower... simply because epic spells can do anything.

[factotum]

Seems to me that Stone Shape would not be sufficient on its own--Xykon would only be able to shape maybe 35 cubic feet of stone at a time. Sounds like a lot? Not really, a cube of stone a little over 3 feet on each side would be that big! Constructing a tower like that using Stone Shape would be nothing like "wresting it from the ground using dark magic", it would be a proper construction job where you have to Shape each individual part of stone and then move them into position--not something Xykon really has the patience for.

And then there's the fact it probably ISN'T made of stone. Look at the shape of it! I don't think you could build a tower that big, that shape, entirely out of stone, and expect it to stand up, even BEFORE Xykon blew out half the walls of his throne room. Unless there's magic still holding it up then I'd say a building like that would have to have a steel frame. Even leaving the size aspect aside, a tower that tall made purely from stone would have walls many feet thick at the base, which again increases the effort required to build it with Stone Shape.

[Ancalagon]

I say it's some sort of ritual. Plot magic creates such a tower.

Not that it matters, as Xykon seems to have infinite gold and xp to research spells and to create items.

[Da'Shain]

You pay the cost for an epic spell once - to research it. Casting it after that, even spamming it, has no cost.But the cost up front to research it is quite hefty, and this particular spell seems like it's not at all worth the investment, when he could be spending money on spells that allow him to protect himself from or kill his enemies.


As we have no information on what resources he has to spend, none of that information means anything.
A few short trips to the plane of Earth (among other places) can refill his purse easily as well.Er ... as we have no information on what resources he has, the default is assumed to infinite rather than finite? That seems like rather faulty logic there.

And if it's that simple to get money, why has the Order not done such tricks with Durkon? Why did Azure City not have limitless coffers? Why was the goblin army so ragtag in SoD at the beginning, when we know Redcloak was at least capable of 5th level spells? Why is the world's economy not utterly broken by now due to such antics? You're assuming that such tricks work in Stickverse, which I find highly unlikely as the only time I've seen it tried in an actual campaign the DM stomped down hard on it.


Stone Shape does nothing to further that MO as well, and it carries a much higher price - it is one of only 4 spells he can learn at that level, no matter how powerful he becomes.Yet we know he has either that or Stoneskin, and Stone Shape is by far the better spell for Xykon to know. Xykon almost certainly paid that price already whether it was a good idea or no, whereas for the Epic spell we have no evidence of him having spent money on. In fact, if Xykon had used an Epic spell O-Chul should know about it and have marked it on the spell list he made, but there's no sign of such a spell on it. Granted, though, we can't see the entire thing, so it's possible it's on there anyway.

Also, minor nitpick: he could quite easily have retrained his 4th level spell slot out many times over as he leveled up, and Stone Shape is simply the latest spell that's caught his fancy.


And for that matter, Cloister doesn't help him kill people either, but he still learned that.It helps him not get Scry and Died, though, which tactic he is fully aware of and wary of. The tower, on the other hand, seems to have had no defenses aside from stone walls and the traps that were set up later, not as part of the building of the tower.


Finally, even if we assume that the "Sto-" on the spell list in that comic was Stone Shape; even if we assume that he knows it; AND even if we assume that you can use Stone Shape to make an entire multi-room, multi-story tower with windows... None of that proves Stone Shape was the spell he used to create it..Of course it's not proven, it can't be unless we actually see how it was done or see him do something similar again. I'm arguing likelihood, and it's far more likely that he simply used a "mundane" spell that is the better of two choices to be on his spell list rather than wasting large amounts of money and XP on an Epic spell that is really not very useful nor is there any indication he has it.

Also, why wouldn't you be able to use Stone Shape like that? The tower doesn't exactly have the most complicated of structures, from what we've seen of the inside. As long as you can spam the spell as much as you want, what's stopping you from building one? Obviously it can't make the wooden doors or the furnishings, but that's what the spoils of war and an army of hobgoblin workers are for.


Seems to me that Stone Shape would not be sufficient on its own--Xykon would only be able to shape maybe 35 cubic feet of stone at a time.Yes, but he has literally dozens of castings of it a day, and plenty of time considering they've been there for months and he has at least 8 hours a day where he can't do much aside from amuse himself somehow. If he was really bored, I'd say he could do it in a few days at most. Or, alternately, Redcloak could have suggested it to him as befitting an Evil Overlord, and it was a project that Xykon and all the clerics worked on.


And then there's the fact it probably ISN'T made of stone. Look at the shape of it! I don't think you could build a tower that big, that shape, entirely out of stone, and expect it to stand up, even BEFORE Xykon blew out half the walls of his throne room.That's a valid point, although from everything we've seen it certainly appears to be made of stone with no sort of framework. However, the actual architecture of it wouldn't work with many materials I can think of without being magically supported, and I'd chalk the particular design of it up to simple Rule of Cool.

[Tass]

Sure, with a hundred casting every day he could probable finish a tower like that in twenty years.

[factotum]

Well, let's do the maths! Assume the tower is a simple cylinder 100 feet high, 20 feet across inside dimension, and has walls 3 feet thick. Those are ludicrous underestimates, of course, given the size and complexity of the thing, but it gives us a ballpark estimate. Such a tower would have a total volume of stone in its walls of 86700 cubic feet, which would require a little under 2500 castings of Stone Shape at Xykon's assumed level. Even if Xykon had 50 castings of Stone Shape a day (which seems fairly unlikely) it would take him nearly 2 months to build the tower!

And that's based on a smaller, much simpler tower than the one we're actually talking about. So, I think we can reasonably rule out Stone Shape as the build method for the tower.

[Moriarty]

The tower has to be made of something lighter, or at least less robust than stone. V could destroy it with Chain Lightning, which isn't possible with stone, according to the srd

[Asta Kask]

Styrofoam?

[Garwain]

I bet it's structure is organic. Durkon is right, the trees are plotting against them!

[Ancalagon]

It's totally beyond me why this has not yet been mentioned... but...

... it's only a model!

[Manga Shoggoth]

It's totally beyond me why this has not yet been mentioned... but...

... it's only a model!

If we are going for that approach:

... A wizard sorcerer did it!

[Ancalagon]

All that could be said about this is now said, I fear. ;)

[Optimystik]

But the cost up front to research it is quite hefty, and this particular spell seems like it's not at all worth the investment, when he could be spending money on spells that allow him to protect himself from or kill his enemies.

"Hefty" is a relative term, wholly dependent on what resources he does possess. Furthermore, the cost of researching an epic spell is dependent on its final Spellcraft DC, i.e. after any mitigating factors have been taken into account.


Er ... as we have no information on what resources he has, the default is assumed to infinite rather than finite? That seems like rather faulty logic there.

An epic level lich is assumed to have less cash available for research rather than more? That seems like rather faulty logic there.

I refer you to the PHB2's WBL table, as well as the fact that Xykon spends as much time as possible crafting (not to mention Redcloak's comment that whenever he disappears, he returns with "a new trick.")


And if it's that simple to get money, why has the Order not done such tricks with Durkon? Why did Azure City not have limitless coffers? Why was the goblin army so ragtag in SoD at the beginning, when we know Redcloak was at least capable of 5th level spells? Why is the world's economy not utterly broken by now due to such antics?

Because being able to plane hop (or even just teleport) does not mean you can defeat the myriad extremely hostile and protective things that live in the places that have such treasure. And we know the elemental planes exist in OotS thanks to SoD (Plane of Water) and the regular strip (Plane of Air). But that isn't even the only way for Xykon to get resources, just one of the faster ones.


Yet we know he has either that or Stoneskin, and Stone Shape is by far the better spell for Xykon to know. Xykon almost certainly paid that price already whether it was a good idea or no, whereas for the Epic spell we have no evidence of him having spent money on. In fact, if Xykon had used an Epic spell O-Chul should know about it and have marked it on the spell list he made, but there's no sign of such a spell on it. Granted, though, we can't see the entire thing, so it's possible it's on there anyway.

Also, minor nitpick: he could quite easily have retrained his 4th level spell slot out many times over as he leveled up, and Stone Shape is simply the latest spell that's caught his fancy.

Even if he has it, that does not prove that he sat there shaping stone for however long it took to create an entire tower. Nor does it fit either the description or drama of being "an accursed tower wrenched out of the
unhallowed ground with dark magic."

I'm sorry, I just don't see it.

[factotum]

And we know the elemental planes exist in OotS thanks to SoD (Plane of Water) and the regular strip (Plane of Air).

Not to mention that V was about to make a trip to the Plane of Earth to replace the diamonds Durkon lost when Haley stole the one from the cast page instead...

[Optimystik]

Not to mention that V was about to make a trip to the Plane of Earth to replace the diamonds Durkon lost when Haley stole the one from the cast page instead...

What a coincidence - another epic caster in the comic suggests the very strategy I proposed.

Nice catch :smallamused: