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Yora
2010-03-04, 06:35 PM
Lots of people complain that fighters, and in extension every character without spells or supernatural abilities, has no cool things to do in combat, except hitting something with a big stick until it's dead.

And when you watch fantasy movies, you see the warriors doing all these cool things like throwing a bastard swords into the slits of someones helmet, or throwing a shield on some stairs to slide... well, maybe not things like that!

I'd like lot's of other people to contribute with either ideas or finished feats. Here's what I came up with so far.

Shield Bashing (revised)
This replaces all the rules for attacking with shields.

As part of an attack action or full attack action, a character can use one of his attacks to beat an opponent with his shield as a melee touch attack. The characters suffers a -4 penalty to attack for using an improvised weapon. If the attack hits, the shield deals damage as an of-hand weapon. (Small shield 1d3, large shield 1d4, plus half the characters strength modifier.)
An opponent hit by a shield bash must succeed on a Fortitude save with a DC equal to the attack roll. If the target fails the save, it's dazed for 1 round.

Shield Bashing (General)
Prerequisites: Str 13, proficient with shields.
Benefit: The character no longer suffers a -4 penalty for using an improvised weapon.
Special: A fighter can take this feat as a special fighter bonus feat.

To be honest, I'm unsure about the save DC. If it scales with BAB chances it will become more effective each level, as saves increase much slower. At low levels chances for making a successful shield bash would be rather low, while it get much easier at higher levels. But then, spellcaster also become much stronger at higher levels, so I don't know if this will be a problem?
Also, I think this special attack could also be made with a weapons hilt or an armored gauntlet. Damage would be about the same so it won't make any difference. Except for being fun, punching an enemy in the face with a gauntlet. :smallbiggrin:

Expert Flanking
A very simple feat that makes it easier to flank. But I don't know if it's really that complicated to get into flanking position that it would be worth a feat.

Expert Flanker (General)
Benefit: You get the bonus to attack rolls for flanking a target, even if you're just standing in a square right next to the square that would usually allow you to flank. This benefit applies only to you, not to the ally that helps you flanking the enemy.
Special: A fighter can take this feat as a special fighter bonus feat.

Threaten
You attack a target so fiercely that it has to focus all its attention to you, or gets severely distracted.

To threaten a target, a character has to take the full attack action (even if the character has only one attack per round). For one round all attacks are made at a -4 penalty to attack, and the character can not make attacks of opportunity, except against his selected target.
The target has to focus completely on the attacking character. If the target attacks any other creature but the threatening character, he suffers a -2 penalty to hit. He also suffers a -2 penalty to AC until the start of his next turn.

One could possibly include Intimidate and Concentration checks, but I like to keep things simple, so it's easier to handle in actual play.

Improved Threaten (General)
Benefit: When using the threaten action, the target suffers penalties of -4 if attacks any other target, and penalties of -2 even if it attacks the threatening character.
Special: A fighter can take this feat as a special fighter bonus feat.

Again, I'm not very sure about the actual mechanics. If anyone has better ideas how to do this, please share.

Temotei
2010-03-04, 06:40 PM
These aren't giving more things to the fighters to do. This just gives the fighters better numbers in particular situations, which isn't what they need--they already get that from their gratuitous amount of feats.

Although this effort could go somewhere great, right now, there's nothing on here to give the fighter more options or cooler things to do, like a warblade, crusader, or swordsage does.

The examples you've given at the top of your post, however, could be good rules to make. Sliding down stairs riding a shield could be a Balance check.

arguskos
2010-03-04, 06:45 PM
These aren't giving more things to the fighters to do. This just gives the fighters better numbers in particular situations, which isn't what they need--they already get that from their gratuitous amount of feats.

Although this effort could go somewhere great, right now, there's nothing on here to give the fighter more options or cooler things to do, like a warblade, crusader, or swordsage does.
I would disagree, since this actually makes a few things here worth DOING, like Shield Bashes. Also, this introduces the Threaten action, which could in theory actually let a fighter draw aggro (as the term goes). I say in theory, because as you so correctly note, this is HARDLY finished. But, I think Yora has a decent idea with threaten.

Yora, I'd personally like to see you flesh out the threaten action more, get more ideas out there, better ways to draw aggro, it's a good thought. I look forward to seeing more of it. :smallsmile:

Latronis
2010-03-04, 08:17 PM
It's called Knight's challenge...

Temotei
2010-03-04, 10:00 PM
I would disagree, since this actually makes a few things here worth DOING, like Shield Bashes. Also, this introduces the Threaten action, which could in theory actually let a fighter draw aggro (as the term goes). I say in theory, because as you so correctly note, this is HARDLY finished. But, I think Yora has a decent idea with threaten.

Yora, I'd personally like to see you flesh out the threaten action more, get more ideas out there, better ways to draw aggro, it's a good thought. I look forward to seeing more of it. :smallsmile:

Huh. For some reason, the bottom of her post has gone unread. Weird. :smalltongue:

Apparently, I read everything except threaten. Don't even ask how I missed that.

Still, not too many more options. Shield bashing is better, you get the choice of a feat that basically copies a 1st-level stance (approximately), and a new option for actually taking actions. Not bad so far, but still a little lacking in terms of things to do.

More! :smallcool: Then I'll wholeheartedly approve and be happy.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-05, 01:03 AM
Lots of people complain that fighters, and in extension every character without spells or supernatural abilities except Tome of Battle initiators, has no cool things to do in combat, except hitting something with a big stick until it's dead.
Fixed that for you.


And when you watch fantasy movies, you see the warriors doing all these cool things like throwing a bastard swords into the slits of someones helmet, or throwing a shield on some stairs to slide... well, maybe not things like that!
Which Tome of Battle initiators can do. Well, maybe not Legolas's slide thing, though that was pretty awesome. But throwing a Bastard Sword? Lightning Throw, or Bloodstorm Blade, or several other things.

I'm not saying that these are bad feats, or that they aren't good additions to the game. But really, if your goal is to have Fighters who have options, and can do cool things, then play a Warblade. They can. And they're available free online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2), along with all of the maneuvers (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a).

Anyway, trying to be a bit more helpful... make the Shield Bash DC equal to 10 + half HD + Str mod, perhaps? That's roughly equivalent to a caster's save DCs with their highest level spells. Seems appropriate. Expert flanking is good but such effects exist and are worded differently. Try reading the Island of Blades stance in those Maneuver Cards I linked to, it has a similar effect (it's a Shadow Hand maneuver, so it'll be the set listed as 6, IIRC). Finally, while I love the idea of Threaten, the mechanics are bad. They hurt the threatener more than the the one threatened, even if the one threatened goes and attacks someone else. Shouldn't work like that. Making it just a Swift action to declare and then losing AoOs against anyone else seems reasonable enough.

Godskook
2010-03-05, 02:23 AM
I'm tired, so pardon if this is a little out of whack:

The Threaten action should probably have a DC of some sort. At present, it auto-activates on a full-attack, which isn't impossible to get consistently. Or, if you don't want it to be DC-based, base activation on actually scoring a hit on the target, so at least it can be defended against.

It should also be something that requires a feat just to do(and if so, roll improved into it) if you're wanting it to be a fighter thing. If you go this way, the penalties can scale to BAB or Fighter level.

Some ideas for other feats in the same direction:
-Threaten multiple enemies, based on either BAB or Fighter Level(Not warblade levels).


Finally, the main problem you're having is that of not understanding the fighter's limitations. What a fighter can already do well:
-Generate attacks
-Generate decent damage
-Lock-down melee enemies

What a fighter can't do well:
-Lock-down casters
--Can't reach them
--Can't easily stop them from casting their powerful spells
--Can't negate or counter their pre-cast spells
-Respond to battlefield control, in-class. No senses, no alternative movements, etc.
-Respond to divided threats.
-Handle item loss

lesser_minion
2010-03-05, 05:20 AM
Fixed that for you.

Maneuvers are explicitly described as being comparable to spells, with the exception that they are generally non-magical.

Let's not even bring in the fact that not everyone has that book, and it isn't a prerequisite to playing a good game, as evidenced by the fact that the game was being played for several years before ToB was released.

To the OP:

Your mark action seems fairly weak - I think you can certainly make it harsher than a -2 to attacks.

The shield bash, in comparison, certainly isn't unbalanced, but I'm not sure I really like it.

Expert Flanking can simply be "Every character attacking an opponent who is in melee with you receives the bonuses for flanking, including yourself. If you hit a target who possesses a special defence against flanking, they lose it until the end of your next turn."

Yora
2010-03-05, 06:12 AM
Maybe I always read the wrong maneuvers when I once again get my hands on a ToB to read about all the interesting things maneuvers can do. But I always find only "+x to damage" or "+x to attack". Sometimes there's "+x to AC" or "heal x hp", but it doesn't really sound fun to me.

Temotei
2010-03-05, 06:18 AM
Maybe I always read the wrong maneuvers when I once again get my hands on a ToB to read about all the interesting things maneuvers can do. But I always find only "+x to damage" or "+x to attack". Sometimes there's "+x to AC" or "heal x hp", but it doesn't really sound fun to me.

Yeah...those aren't the fun maneuvers, but describing them can be pretty cool. Starting things on fire by punching them is just plain awesome. :smalltongue:

On these boards, there are a lot of homebrew disciplines, giving everyone a plethora of options to choose from for maneuvers. Even without the homebrew forum, Tome of Battle has a bunch of cool maneuvers. Diamond mind, iron heart, setting sun, desert wind...they all have something to offer in terms of options, and they're cool. :smallamused:

I'll provide examples if they're requested.

Godskook
2010-03-05, 07:51 AM
Maybe I always read the wrong maneuvers when I once again get my hands on a ToB to read about all the interesting things maneuvers can do. But I always find only "+x to damage" or "+x to attack". Sometimes there's "+x to AC" or "heal x hp", but it doesn't really sound fun to me.

Let's see:
-Sudden Leap: Make a jump check, move that far as a swift action.
-3 teleport maneuvers in the Shadow Hand discipline(Each for a different action.)
-Iron Heart Surge: Remove negative effect that's on you. Definition isn't good, but still good no matter how your DM reads it.
-White Raven Tactics: Give your friends free turns! How is that not awesome? Easily abused, so behave.
-3 Diamond Mind maneuvers, each allowing you to substitute a concentration check instead of a save. The benefits here are amazing.
-Stance that gives concealment
-Stance that prevents dying.
-Stance that makes opponents provoke more AoOs from you.
-Stance that allows you to flank from other places than "directly across".
-Stance that allows you to ignore difficult terrain(also adds to your movement speed).
-Stances that heal your allies because you punched your enemies really hard(Heal + Damage in a single action)
-A L9 maneuver that gives you either 2 full-round actions or 2 full-attacks(I forget, AFB).

And that's just off the top of my head, without reading the book in over a week, or reading it seriously in over a year. I'm sure I missed a few of the good ones, and I definitely missed some of the L9 maneuvers, which tend to be at least half-decent nukes.

Roderick_BR
2010-03-06, 10:06 AM
I like the threaten mechanic. I always liked ideas of a meeler disturning, getting in the way, and generally making it harder for enemies to walk past them and attack other people, instead of just gainning an AoO, that makes most monster laugh at the fighter's patetic attempt at stopping it.

It feels a bit too much, though. Make it a full attack to give the enemy a -2 to attacks and an additional -2 to AoO against others targets other than the attacker himself, "resetable" if someone else tries to whack it, and the feat allows it to be made as a default attack with an extra -2 for those attacks.

For a shield fighter, I just combine Improved Shield Bash with Agile Shield Fighter(PHB2) into a feat, and Shield Specialization(PHB2) and Active Shield Defense (PHB2) into another feat.

I didn't get well what Expert Flanking does. It's just a +2 bonus to attacks whenever you attack someone? If it's the lose Dex to AC thing, it would be too powerful.

AgentPaper
2010-03-06, 09:03 PM
You might want to re-word Expert Flanking to:

Expert Flanker: As long as at least one square adjacent to you would let you count as flanking an opponent, you count as flanking that opponent, as does the ally that would grant you that flanking bonus from that square.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-07, 09:12 AM
Maneuvers are explicitly described as being comparable to spells, with the exception that they are generally non-magical.
But they are nonmagical, which makes all the difference. The Warblade is a Fighter that works.


Let's not even bring in the fact that not everyone has that book, and it isn't a prerequisite to playing a good game, as evidenced by the fact that the game was being played for several years before ToB was released.
Of course it isn't a prerequisite for a good game - freeform can be a good game, too. A good roleplaying game depends much more on the people and the roleplaying for fun. On the other hand, the mechanics for non-initiator melee characters are horrid (in my, and apparently the OP's, opinion, at least), and initiators solve a problem that has existed since 3.0 and lasted until Tome of Battle was published.

And, of course you shouldn't mention that not everyone has that book, since that's irrelevant as the Warblade and all of the maneuvers have been released for free on Wizards' website and I linked to both.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-03-07, 01:11 PM
...

And, of course you shouldn't mention that not everyone has that book, since that's irrelevant as the Warblade and all of the maneuvers have been released for free on Wizards' website and I linked to both.

Is the Warblade under OGL, or not?

Either way, some people prefer to try to make a fix for the fighter that doesn't require replacing it with another class.

I like the OP's suggestions, although I think Expert Flanker will be picked up by more rogues than fighters - gaining flanking effects without being in the square that normally grants it? Sneak Attack!

lesser_minion
2010-03-07, 01:30 PM
But they are nonmagical, which makes all the difference. The Warblade is a Fighter that works.

No, the warblade is a fighter with pseudo-spellcasting. I'm not going to dispute that it works, but a minor fluff difference is exactly that.


And, of course you shouldn't mention that not everyone has that book, since that's irrelevant as the Warblade and all of the maneuvers have been released for free on Wizards' website and I linked to both.

Yes, I know. Even then, you can still use ToB far better if you have the actual book, which explains rather more than the excerpt, funnily enough.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-07, 03:58 PM
This is massively off-topic; for that I apologize. I did, in my original post, bring up on-topic discussions as well, nor do I think the Warblade negates the use of these abilities, I was only responding to that single line. Continuing the discussion is fruitless, I suppose.

Just two details that are, I think, at least quite objective and should not invite more off-topic discussion.

Yes, I know. Even then, you can still use ToB far better if you have the actual book, which explains rather more than the excerpt, funnily enough.
Between the two of them, the only thing you're missing is how Initiator Level works, which might easily be elsewhere in the excerpt, and some of the feats in the list in the excerpt are wrong. Yes, it's not the same as having the book, but really you're not missing much when it comes to running a pure Warblade. You obviously can't do a Crusader or Swordsage, or use any of the Prestige Classes, but it's still quite a bit that you can do. "I don't have Tome of Battle" is not really a great reason to disallow Warblades, unless you have a blanket ban on all material that is not in books you personally own (a reasonable position to take in general, really).

Anyway, the Warblade is not OGL, but it is freely available. There's a difference (namely, I can link you to Wizards' website but I cannot put the Warblade text up on my own site, which is a considerable difference from a legal point of view).

Rhyvurg
2010-03-08, 03:15 AM
Yes, Martial Adepts are good, but not everyone wants to play a character with any quasi-magical talents at all but still be relevant at high levels. There was some remedy to this in PHB 2, with Combat Form feats and the Weapon Supremacy feat tree, but those are just the beginning.

(personally I think Wep.Supremacy is something a Fighter should get at level 12, not 18)

There needs to be more high-level feats like that, that take something available at low levels and make it amazing. I like the shield bash idea, where you can daze a target, but it needs to be taken to the next level, like a feat you can take that, in addition to dazing a target, makes a shield bash knock them prone if they are up to one size category larger than you. Or perhaps a feat tree that's a counter-tactic to the natural attacks of larger creatures, where if they miss you can grab on and do a colossus climb to get at more vulnerable spots besides what you could reach on the ground.

Now, I have a very biassed opinion. I've always had the belief that, if Fighters are going to have next to no options outside of combat, then let them truely excell in combat. The other classes would have their place, sure, but once the initiative dice hit the table, it's the Fighter's world and you all just live in it.