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Tyrone7570
2010-03-04, 11:56 PM
I've run several games before and I'm having a little more of an issue in my current game than I have in the past and was hoping for a little clarity on how to handle it - maybe there are some rules I'm not aware of or some other DMs have experience with it.

Everyone has probably had those "problem" players who just don't want to get along with their fellow adventurers and are outraged when others in the group get a little upset with them over their actions. I'm running into a little bit of that with my current party.

Two of them are rather skill based and have pumped a lot of resources into Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive and Disguise. (I'm running this in 3.5)

The players are often just trying to out skill each other and step on everything the other do and spill this over onto other players and tend to roll a d20 then tell another player how they have to feel.

Are there more rules or house rules others have for dealing with PC on PC interaction like this? I've spoken with the players and they seem to understand but don't want me to "nerf" them or take away from what they find to be fun and have built their characters around.

How has anyone else dealt with similar issues?

Geiger Counter
2010-03-05, 12:03 AM
I remember being a total douche and kept rolling sense motive whenever the the others players said anything to me.

I really don't think it's necessary to require skill checks for PCs to interact with eachother most of the time. I personally don't think you can force players to things just because they roll a high diplomacy, which is why I hated a particular DM I had.

sofawall
2010-03-05, 12:09 AM
I remember being a total douche and kept rolling sense motive whenever the the others players said anything to me.

I really don't think it's necessary to require skill checks for PCs to interact with eachother most of the time. I personally don't think you can force players to things just because they roll a high diplomacy, which is why I hated a particular DM I had.

NPCs and other PCs cannot use Diplomacy on PCs.

RandomLunatic
2010-03-05, 12:09 AM
Well, Diplomacy's skill description says it flat-out does not work on PCs. Bluff and sense motive, not so much.

That said, have you tried just talking to the guys, and tell them how they a ruining the game for everybody else? Assuming they are not total douches, they should be fairly receptive to this line of thought.

Sucrose
2010-03-05, 12:10 AM
It's explicitly in the rules that Diplomacy doesn't work on PC's, for precisely this reason. Players godmodding others isn't any fun except for the douche's enjoyment. I'd recommend playing by the standard rules on this one, rather than your unknowing houserule.

As for them trying to one-up each other, I'd say that's more or less just a feature of them playing very mechanically similar characters. I doubt that they'll be willing to separate themselves mostly through roleplay, from what I've read in your post, so I'd recommend encouraging them to develop skill sets that are distinct from each other.

Math_Mage
2010-03-05, 12:12 AM
Never let your d20 get in the way of having fun.

That is all.

Fiery Diamond
2010-03-05, 12:58 AM
As others have said, the rules say Diplomacy does not work on PCs. I would go ahead and extrapolate that to conclude that Intimidate does not work on PCs either.

Bluff and Sense Motive, however, do work, but unless there is a significant reason (such as keeping a secret) it is considered bad form for one PC to bluff another PC.

Godskook
2010-03-05, 01:10 AM
Two of them are rather skill based and have pumped a lot of resources into Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive and Disguise. (I'm running this in 3.5)

Keep in mind the standard limitations of all these skills. Diplomacy has been mentioned, but:
-Bluff only works when the 'lie' is something that *IS* believable, IC. I had a DM once that actually allowed another player to roll a bluff check against mine concerning a fact my character already knew(stated IC, reasoned out IC, and using only IC knowledge). That's bull. On top of that, hard-to-believe bluffs get penalties to the check.
-Sense Motive shouldn't be an issue. Is it?
-Disguise has familiarity bonuses to the opposed spot-check. These are strong enough that members of the party should be able to optimize their spot checks to be at least on par with the crazy PCs' disguise checks. Spot also has no penalty on retries, so taking 20 is possible against the opposed disguise check(which can't take 20).


Are there more rules or house rules others have for dealing with PC on PC interaction like this? I've spoken with the players and they seem to understand but don't want me to "nerf" them or take away from what they find to be fun and have built their characters around.

The harsh way of putting this is thus: Bullies have 'fun' picking on the other kids on the playground. They even spend time and energy to be 'good' at it. Neither fact makes such behavior ok. If some of your players are bullying others, that's *NEVER* ok, and DM Fiat is an appropriate, albeit the most heavy-handed, way of dealing with this.

That said, there's things you can do to alleviate the players' bloodlust. Run some pvp arenas or explicitly 'evil' campaign(s). When everyone expects aggressive behavior, no one is upset when it happens.

Glass Mouse
2010-03-05, 02:23 AM
Keep in mind the standard limitations of all these skills. Diplomacy has been mentioned, but:
-Bluff only works when the 'lie' is something that *IS* believable, IC. I had a DM once that actually allowed another player to roll a bluff check against mine concerning a fact my character already knew(stated IC, reasoned out IC, and using only IC knowledge). That's bull. On top of that, hard-to-believe bluffs get penalties to the check.

(snipped)

This (and everything else Godskook wrote). Also, remember that bluff checks don't measure the subject's belief in the lie, but the subject's belief in the liar. So, sure, you can try to tell an age-old friend that, "Hey, I'm really a lammasu!", and if you score high enough, who knows, maybe your old friend will be kind enough to take you to a mental hospital.

Oh, and players should NEVER be able to tell other players how they feel. That's the GM's job - and even he should be very careful about it. Even with the aforementioned bluff check, it should be the GM who narrates the outcome. Really, your problem players are trying to play god(/GM).
I mean, players probably won't remember or have any claim on stuff like, "Okay, so X's bluff exceedes Y's Sense Motive by 8... but you forget Y's +10 bonus because she has already caught you stealing. Twice."
The GM has.

DabblerWizard
2010-03-05, 07:35 AM
Even if there weren't any rules on the topic, you could always "dm fiat" your way out of it.

If they continue to complain that you're just stomping on their style, then you either tell them (1) dm fiat = rule of law ("tough cookies dude") or (2) tell them that their behavior toward the other players is unacceptable, period.

Volkov
2010-03-05, 07:37 AM
NPCs and other PCs cannot use Diplomacy on PCs.

Unless you are a jerk and made a monster that can use diplomacy on PC's. In which case you need to be slapped if you ever actually use it.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-05, 07:51 AM
What gets really bad is when PCs start Charming other PCs.

Glass Mouse
2010-03-05, 12:43 PM
What gets really bad is when PCs start Charming other PCs.

Oh, yeah. This should only be allowed if you have very mature players who DO NOT get off on power tripping.

Actually, just don't play with power trippers.

Kylarra
2010-03-05, 12:52 PM
Unless you are a jerk and made a monster that can use diplomacy on PC's. In which case you need to be slapped if you ever actually use it.Actually that would be a custom ability to influence PC behavior as Diplomacy is explicitly written to only affect NPCs.

Tyndmyr
2010-03-05, 02:21 PM
Two of them are rather skill based and have pumped a lot of resources into Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive and Disguise. (I'm running this in 3.5)

The players are often just trying to out skill each other and step on everything the other do and spill this over onto other players and tend to roll a d20 then tell another player how they have to feel.

Are there more rules or house rules others have for dealing with PC on PC interaction like this? I've spoken with the players and they seem to understand but don't want me to "nerf" them or take away from what they find to be fun and have built their characters around.

Set them on fire.

Fine, fine...here's the thing. Circumstance modifiers exist exactly for this reason. That guy who lied to you and tricked you the last ten times you talked...you're going to be a bit paranoid of whatever he tells you, no matter how legit it seems.

We do stacking circumstance modifiers. A single one is just a +2, but for each time the character realizes he's been recently tricked by said char, you add another one. Now, this doesn't take effect unless a character realizes he's been lied to, but once he does, he's going to be wary.

Plus, we always give players the option of simply not trusting anything character x says, results be damned, after they've been burned. This isn't always a safe option, but it does happen in real life, and if someone's tried to bluff you into a bad deal the last five times you talked, it's only reasonable.

AtwasAwamps
2010-03-05, 02:39 PM
Set them on fire.




Clubs are more Catharthic.

Tyndmyr
2010-03-05, 02:46 PM
Clubs are more Catharthic.

These options work well together.

AtwasAwamps
2010-03-05, 02:47 PM
These options work well together.

FLAMING BURST CLUBS FOR EVERYONE!!!!