PDA

View Full Version : two questions about full attacks



Mystic Muse
2010-03-05, 01:16 AM
1. Using a full attack would you attack with all your natural weapons? so, say you're using a Dragon. Would you attack with your bite, both claws, your wings and your tail?
2. Does Multi-attack take away the penalties from full attacking?

I can't find an answer to either of these in the SRD. Yes I already looked under full-attack.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-05, 01:19 AM
1. Using a full attack would you attack with all your natural weapons? so, say you're using a Dragon. Would you attack with your bite, both claws, your wings and your tail?
2. Does Multi-attack take away the penalties from full attacking?

I can't find an answer to either of these in the SRD. Yes I already looked under full-attack.

1) Yes.
2) Not quite. It does reduce secondary natural attacks to -2, instead of -5.

Mystic Muse
2010-03-05, 01:22 AM
Okay thanks.

Is there a way to get fewer penalties from Full attacking by chance?

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-05, 01:25 AM
Okay thanks.

Is there a way to get fewer penalties from Full attacking by chance?

-2 is about as good as you can get. If you like, you can work on obtaining bonuses. A Bull's Strength will offset the -2 from secondary attacks, give a +2 to the primary, and provide +2 damage to all attacks.

But you don't get much better than multiattack/multiweapon fighting for attack reduction.

KellKheraptis
2010-03-05, 01:26 AM
Improved Multiattack removes the -2 even IIRC.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-05, 01:29 AM
Improved Multiattack removes the -2 even IIRC.

Isn't that epic?

Claudius Maximus
2010-03-05, 01:29 AM
Improved Multiattack removes the -2 even IIRC.

This is correct.

On the off chance you didn't see it, you don't make iteratives with natural attacks. A dragon with 20 BAB doesn't get 4 attacks with each natural weapon; it uses each instance of a natural weapon once. So 2 claw attacks, for example.


Isn't that epic?

Nope; it's non-epic.

Mystic Muse
2010-03-05, 01:32 AM
So building a Dragon to Attack with all its natural weapons is pretty much pointless in other words?

magic9mushroom
2010-03-05, 01:32 AM
And their BAB doesn't go down by -5 for each one like with iteratives.

Mystic Muse
2010-03-05, 01:38 AM
And their BAB doesn't go down by -5 for each one like with iteratives.

So, a Dragon with a BAB of 20 gets five attacks all at +20?(this is before modifiers of course)

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-05, 01:40 AM
So building a Dragon to Attack with all its natural weapons is pretty much pointless in other words?

Hardly. Dragons at higher levels have BAB to spare, hitting upwards of +30 and 40.

A Power attack for 10, with improved multiattack, and you're still rocking a Melee attack bonus high enough to hit most members of most parties on a 2, and are doing very respectable damage.

Add in spell buffs, and I've had great wyrms with only 1 combat buff doing around 150-170 damage on an attack.

Gets worse with Wraithstrike, when you can power attack for 20. Add in fog and blindsense, or natural darkness and the same, and you can go against flat-footed touch AC, pretty much guaranteeing hits for good damage. Yes, you'll have a miss chance, but if a dragon likes darkness and fog, he'll likely have blindfighting.


So, a Dragon with a BAB of 20 gets five attacks all at +20?(this is before modifiers of course)

If he has improved multiattack, yes. If he has multiattack, he gets one at +20, and 4 at +18 (add in str, and subtract size, of course).

Now, if a dragon has +20 to hit, he may get a tail attack, making it 6 attacks. This is based on dragon size.

Grumman
2010-03-05, 01:43 AM
So, a Dragon with a BAB of 20 gets five attacks all at +20?(this is before modifiers of course)
No. He gets one primary attack at +20 (the bite) and four secondary attacks at +15 (2 claws and 2 wings).

FishAreWet
2010-03-05, 01:45 AM
If the Dragon has Improved Unarmed Strike he can make iterative attacks based on BAB 0/-5/-10/-15 then make all natural attacks at -5 and with 1/2*Str. Multiattack will less all of the natural attacks to a -2. He takes no penalties on his iteratives.

Mystic Muse
2010-03-05, 01:45 AM
I'm still kind of confused.....

So a Dragon hits with all its natural weapons on a full attack regardless of BAB but the amount of attacks doesn't increase with BAB?

I'm asking because I kind of want to play one with these rules here. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8002450&postcount=108

FishAreWet
2010-03-05, 01:48 AM
So a Dragon hits with all its natural weapons on a full attack regardless of BAB but the amount of attacks doesn't increase with BAB?YES.

Natural attacks don't care about BAB except for... attack bonus.

Mystic Muse
2010-03-05, 01:51 AM
YES.

Natural attacks don't care about BAB except for... attack bonus.

Okay. Just making sure.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-05, 01:54 AM
If the Dragon has Improved Unarmed Strike he can make iterative attacks based on BAB 0/-5/-10/-15 then make all natural attacks at -5 and with 1/2*Str. Multiattack will less all of the natural attacks to a -2. He takes no penalties on his iteratives.

However, most dragons won't have the Dex required for Improved unarmed strike without work.

Mystic Muse
2010-03-05, 01:58 AM
However, most dragons won't have the Dex required for Improved unarmed strike without work.

I don't see a DEX requirement for IUS in the SRD.:smallconfused:

magic9mushroom
2010-03-05, 02:05 AM
I'm still kind of confused.....

So a Dragon hits with all its natural weapons on a full attack regardless of BAB but the amount of attacks doesn't increase with BAB?

I'm asking because I kind of want to play one with these rules here. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8002450&postcount=108

Yup. You get all your iteratives as normal, then all your natural weapons at BAB -5. So if you had a sword in one claw, the other claw free, 2 wings, a bite, and tail slap, you get, assuming enough BAB:

Weapon at normal AB
Weapon at AB-5
Weapon at AB-10
Weapon at AB-15
Claw at AB-5
2 Wings at AB-5
Bite at AB-5
Tail at AB-5.

Multiattack reduces all those -5s on natural attacks to -2s, and Improved Multiattack removes them entirely. You can also take Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike to get more natural attacks, though they get penalties. If you don't use weapons, then your primary natural weapon doesn't take the -5 IIRC and you can apply your full Str modifier to it.

Fiery Diamond
2010-03-05, 02:14 AM
Yup. You get all your iteratives as normal, then all your natural weapons at BAB -5. So if you had a sword in one claw, the other claw free, 2 wings, a bite, and tail slap, you get, assuming enough BAB:

Weapon at normal AB
Weapon at AB-5
Weapon at AB-10
Weapon at AB-15
Weapon at AB-20
Claw at AB-5
2 Wings at AB-5
Bite at AB-5
Tail at AB-5.

Multiattack reduces all those -5s on natural attacks to -2s, and Improved Multiattack removes them entirely. You can also take Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike to get more natural attacks, though they get penalties. If you don't use weapons, then your primary natural weapon doesn't take the -5 IIRC and you can apply your full Str modifier to it.

Wait, what? That doesn't make sense. How are you getting the fifth weapon attack? You can only get 4 weapon attacks from BAB, at BAB, BAB-5,BAB-10,and BAB-15.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-05, 02:16 AM
Wait, what? That doesn't make sense. How are you getting the fifth weapon attack? You can only get 4 weapon attacks from BAB, at BAB, BAB-5,BAB-10,and BAB-15.

Ok, my brain's asleep. Editing.

(I literally fell asleep on a train today and had to be woken up by the crew when it stopped. Bear with me.)

Runestar
2010-03-05, 05:02 AM
Do note that even with improved multiattack, you still only get 1/2 str mod on damage with your secondary attacks. It merely removes the to-hit penalties.

Draconomicon does have the rapidstrike/improved rapidstrike feats though, which lets you make additional attacks with a pair of natural weapons.

Simba
2010-03-05, 05:34 AM
I literally fell asleep on a train today and had to be woken up by the crew when it stopped. Bear with me.

Happened to me 2 days ago, but I went past my station and had to wait for an hour for the train back. I got home a little late and my wife was pissed...

About the topic: I did that with a Wemic once, went for Monk, had Multiattack later and did real nice damage with hands and claws.

Runestar
2010-03-05, 05:37 AM
About the topic: I did that with a Wemic once, went for Monk, had Multiattack later and did real nice damage with hands and claws.

If you do that, then make you you pick up superior unarmed strike (ToB) as well, improves your unarmed strikes to base 2d6 (for medium). :smallbiggrin:

Simba
2010-03-05, 05:40 AM
If you do that, then make you you pick up superior unarmed strike (ToB) as well, improves your unarmed strikes to base 2d6 (for medium). :smallbiggrin:

I would love to play that character once again, but noone lets me play a Wemic. People can play Wizards, all right, but a race that is really not stronger than most? No way! [/whine]

magic9mushroom
2010-03-05, 06:26 AM
Here's a question. If you have a creature with Rapidstrike on more than one set of attacks (e.g. a Dragon) and give it the Epic Pseudonatural template, does it get the benefit of both sets of Rapidstrike when in Pseudonatural form, or does it only get one more set of tentacle rakes?

Mystic Muse
2010-03-05, 08:15 PM
Can the beast claws item from Savage species be enchanted or no?

Runeclaw
2010-03-05, 08:22 PM
If the Dragon has Improved Unarmed Strike he can make iterative attacks based on BAB 0/-5/-10/-15 then make all natural attacks at -5 and with 1/2*Str. Multiattack will less all of the natural attacks to a -2. He takes no penalties on his iteratives.

If he does this, does he get natural weapon damage on his "unarmed" attacks? Or just base unarmed damage? And does the "unarmed" attacks use up on of his natural weapons? Or can it be assumed to be a headbutt or something?

ericgrau
2010-03-05, 09:39 PM
Hardly. Dragons at higher levels have BAB to spare, hitting upwards of +30 and 40.

A Power attack for 10, with improved multiattack, and you're still rocking a Melee attack bonus high enough to hit most members of most parties on a 2, and are doing very respectable damage.

Add in spell buffs, and I've had great wyrms with only 1 combat buff doing around 150-170 damage on an attack.

Gets worse with Wraithstrike, when you can power attack for 20. Add in fog and blindsense, or natural darkness and the same, and you can go against flat-footed touch AC, pretty much guaranteeing hits for good damage. Yes, you'll have a miss chance, but if a dragon likes darkness and fog, he'll likely have blindfighting.
A CR 20 red dragon has a +27 to hit. A level 20 melee has 38-40 AC without any special optimization tricks, nor any special focus on AC, nor even buffs. Simply armor, a +5 from 3-4 sources and a couple +1's or +2's here and there from misc. causes. At the same level the rogue's dex is through the roof netting him the same or higher AC. So that pretty much leaves casters, who ought to have some other kind of protection I hope. Losing 10% of your hits to gain a measly +1 or +2 damage is shooting yourself in the foot at this level. You need splatbook tricks to either negate the AB penalty or to get more damage. Ya wraithstrike is one of those tricks but it's a cheesy way to basically say "I hit" as it throws the concept of AB and AC out the window.

Salanmander
2010-03-05, 10:56 PM
A CR 20 red dragon has a +27 to hit. A level 20 melee has 38-40 AC without any special optimization tricks, nor any special focus on AC, nor even buffs.

....Huh?

A CR 20 red dragon (old) has a BAB of +28, with a +36 total attack bonus. The red dragon with +27 to hit (young adult) is cr 13.

Mystic Muse
2010-03-05, 11:25 PM
Can the beast claws item from Savage species be enchanted or no?

asking again because nobody answered.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-05, 11:27 PM
A CR 20 red dragon has a +27 to hit. A level 20 melee has 38-40 AC without any special optimization tricks, nor any special focus on AC, nor even buffs. Simply armor, a +5 from 3-4 sources and a couple +1's or +2's here and there from misc. causes. At the same level the rogue's dex is through the roof netting him the same or higher AC. So that pretty much leaves casters, who ought to have some other kind of protection I hope. Losing 10% of your hits to gain a measly +1 or +2 damage is shooting yourself in the foot at this level. You need splatbook tricks to either negate the AB penalty or to get more damage. Ya wraithstrike is one of those tricks but it's a cheesy way to basically say "I hit" as it throws the concept of AB and AC out the window.

Let's take that Old Red (CR 20). +36 to hit.

Add in 1 buff (Righteous Might). An old red can add this to his spell list, per RAW. Raises it to +37 to hit. (+2 str, -1 Size). Also increases damage, reach, and breath weapon length, which are all dependent on dragon size (in other words, a solid buff for a dragon).

Now, assuming Multiattack and Improved Multiattack:

Bite: +37 (4d8+14) -32 Average
2 Claw: +37 (4d6+ 7) - 21 Average each
2 Wing: +37 (2d8+7) - 16 Average each
Tail: +37 (4d6+ 21) - 35 Average

This will hit a 38-40 AC on a 2-3. Average damage: 141, assuming all hit.
You're not helping your case. Even if AC is 40, that's around 126.9 average. And that's not the normal "not AC focused" melee. Generally, most decide to either focus melee, at which point you can get high (higher than that), or invest in killing faster, at which point, you're more likely to see AC 30-35 as a high point (+5 dex, +10 Armor - Breastplate +5, +5 Deflection, Possibly Shield). With fully loaded spell buffs, possibly higher, but on the other side, the dragon's not fully loaded on spell buffs for str, accuracy, and the like. There's a lot of wiggle room on both sides.

But even against an AC 40? It's not hard to hit with a CR 20 dragon.
Make someone flatfooted, and it gets easier. 20-30 foot reach in heavy fog/smoke/etc, coupled with blindsense + Blindfighting, and you can get a lot of flatfooted attacks for good damage. Smoky environs also aren't uncommon for reds, who lair in exceptionally hot areas, such as volcanos.

EDIT: Assume an AC 35, by the by? PA 4 increases damage by 24, at a 95% hit chance. 156.75 average damage.

Assume Flatfooted AC 30, vs 25% miss chance from concealment:
PA 9 = 54 bonus damage, at a 71.25% hit rate. 138.9 average damage, and total concealment.

It gets worse with Str boosters, or AC mitigaters. But it's quite respectable without.

And, as always, the level of optimization the dragon should have should roughly match the party's level. They use gate and disjunction? Use wraithstrike. PA for 10 for no penalty, and up that damage quite scary high. Better yet, PA for 20, and go in smoke/fog for flatfooted touch AC.

These are things you break out if the party breaks out big guns. Without them, the dragon's still quite a formidable opponent. Now a guaranteed win, but PA opens up options, and allows for average damage finessing.

Runestar
2010-03-06, 12:16 AM
Why has no one mentioned the dragon casting bite of the werebear? :smallbiggrin:

Mystic Muse
2010-03-06, 12:18 AM
Isn't bite of the werebear a Druid spell?

The Dragon I'm playing only has Sorceror casting.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-06, 12:25 AM
It's a Sor/Wiz spell too.

Eldariel
2010-03-06, 12:37 AM
Old Red has Cleric spells too. It could very easily buff itself with e.g. Divine Favor for +3 to hit and damage. And there's little reason for it not to have Greater Magic Fang or Amulet of Mighty Fists or similar to get magically enhanced natural weapons, and it could easily acquire a +6 Str buff too. I'd expect no less than ~+45 from it, unless the party totally catches it by surprise. And that's before factoring in its access to Greater Invisibility and company, something the Fighters may have trouble with. I don't expect party Fighters to actually stand a chance of dodging its attacks.