Optimizing Astral Constructs

[Trekkin]

I'm set to play in a DnD campaign with a rogue, a necromancer, and an artificer, all of us are fifth level, and I was considering filling out the fighter role indirectly by means of a Shaper's astral constructs as I've always wanted to try out a class this conducive to creativity. One trip through WoTC's forums later, and I'm completely confused. I've got one nebulous idea about setting up for going Constructor, another about going Shadow Mind for Tainted Construction and the benefits to Metacreativity, and still another about taking Vow of Poverty for Words of Creation and other Exalted feats at the cost of two feats. In short, I need something of a concrete recommendation about how to develop a Shaper that can produce the most effective astral constructs possible, and the rest of what I'd like to do (fabricate, minor creation) I can shape around it.

Is there a particularly effective astral construct Shaper build out there that could work from level five on?

[magic9mushroom]

I'm set to play in a DnD campaign with a rogue, a necromancer, and an artificer, all of us are fifth level, and I was considering filling out the fighter role indirectly by means of a Shaper's astral constructs as I've always wanted to try out a class this conducive to creativity. One trip through WoTC's forums later, and I'm completely confused. I've got one nebulous idea about setting up for going Constructor, another about going Shadow Mind for Tainted Construction and the benefits to Metacreativity, and still another about taking Vow of Poverty for Words of Creation and other Exalted feats at the cost of two feats. In short, I need something of a concrete recommendation about how to develop a Shaper that can produce the most effective astral constructs possible, and the rest of what I'd like to do (fabricate, minor creation) I can shape around it.

Is there a particularly effective astral construct Shaper build out there that could work from level five on?

Don't take Vow of Poverty.

That aside, have you considered going Thrallherd?

[Trekkin]

Do you mean that I should go Thrallherd in order to have a supply of utterly disposable minion meat shields? I suppose it could work, although I dislike giving up full manifesting.

And is there a particular reason Vow of Poverty is suboptimal? It seemed to me that a character that wasn't particularly dependent on items anyway could eventually gain a great deal from Exalted feat access and the ability bonuses, applied to Intelligence.

[magic9mushroom]

Do you mean that I should go Thrallherd in order to have a supply of utterly disposable minion meat shields? I suppose it could work, although I dislike giving up full manifesting.

And is there a particular reason Vow of Poverty is suboptimal? It seemed to me that a character that wasn't particularly dependent on items anyway could eventually gain a great deal from Exalted feat access and the ability bonuses, applied to Intelligence.

a) You don't need VoP to qualify for Exalted feats, and it itself is an Exalted feat, so it just gives you more of them.

b) "Not particularly dependent on items"? I'm not particularly good with all the item stuff myself, but there's stuff you will be wanting - and the bonus to Int VoP can get you (+8) is less than you can get with items (+6 Item +5 Tome). Unless you find a friendly NPC wizard of 17th level or higher, which isn't all that likely.

c) While Thrallherd does lose 2 levels of manifesting, Practised Manifester can remove a lot of the penalty.

[Trekkin]

Ah. I had forgotten about Practiced Manifester; thank you.

So why is Thrallherd more effective than astral constructs? Simply that the minions may be acquired without pp expenditure?

[PhoenixRivers]

There's a PrC on the wizard's site that is focused on sucking the souls from people that gets a lot of cocoons, and 1 limited construct for each, with a duration of 1 day/level.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Consider:

A Thrallherd's minions are already there, ready to go. An Astral Construct is going to take an action to summon (depending on metapsionics), and by the time it arrives, there's a good chance whatever it was created to deal with will no longer be a threat.

Especially at lower levels, but even at higher ones, combats might only last 1 or 2 rounds. Summoning (and Astral Constructs) often wind up being a waste of a turn.

[magic9mushroom]

Ah. I had forgotten about Practiced Manifester; thank you.

So why is Thrallherd more effective than astral constructs? Simply that the minions may be acquired without pp expenditure?

You get minions that last for ages, are actually powerful, replenish themselves automatically, and don't cost PP.

Your first thrall's only a level behind you, remember. And if he dies, you get another one in 24 hours.

[The_Snark]

Not that Thrallherd isn't a great class in general, simply because Leadership is already very powerful and a boosted version is even more so, but I don't think it has much of a place in a thread about astral constructs. Thralls and believers don't really serve the same function as summoned/created creatures. Thralls are generally more powerful than most summoned beings, believers are generally so low-level as to be useless, but neither can be positioned wherever you like, replaced with a full-round action, or altered on the spot to suit the sort of combatant you need.

The Constructor is a pretty excellent class for a shaper who wants to focus on astral constructs; they don't get a whole lot at lower levels, but at high levels they get some pretty excellent abilities. Longer-lasting constructs means you can start manifesting them ahead of time in preparation for a battle, bonus Boost Construct feats (note that you can't normally take Boost Construct multiple times) give you the ability to customize them more, the ability to summon multiple constructs at a time is deadly (especially if you have Overchannel or wild surge), and of course the capstone ability to quicken Astral Construct without raising its power point cost is excellent.

[Trekkin]

Would there be any benefit to gaining access to Tainted Construction if I wanted to go the Constructor route? I just don't know if access to that menu of abilities is worth it.

[Pluto]

c) While Thrallherd does lose 2 levels of manifesting, Practised Manifester can remove a lot of the penalty.
The lost PP still hurt though.

(Thank goodness for Subverted Psion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20051125a).)

edit:
Regarding Tainted Construction, those DCs are really low.
And TC costs 2 feats.
And 3.0 psionics is so wonky that it's usually better just to avoid.
I'd say skip it.

[Asheram]

Ah. I had forgotten about Practiced Manifester; thank you.

So why is Thrallherd more effective than astral constructs? Simply that the minions may be acquired without pp expenditure?

"You see, Killbots have a preset kill limit. Knowing their weakness, I sent wave after wave of my own men at them, until they reached their limit and shut down."

You get to be Zap Brannigan. :) And got loads of people to follow you.

[magic9mushroom]

The lost PP still hurt though.

(Thank goodness for Subverted Psion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20051125a).)

Funny thing about Subverted Psion is that it's nowhere near as broken as Tainted Scholar, because the power points aren't all that huge (at level 20, you can only get about +100 or so pp, which is like 25% more, compared to the TS's 200-300% extra spells), and you don't get a bonus to DCs.

[PhoenixRivers]

Funny thing about Subverted Psion is that it's nowhere near as broken as Tainted Scholar, because the power points aren't all that huge (at level 20, you can only get about +100 or so pp, which is like 25% more, compared to the TS's 200-300% extra spells), and you don't get a bonus to DCs.

Combining the two is where it really gets bad. Like, scary bad worse than either alone aaaaahhhhh1111!!!!!11!!!!one!!

[2xMachina]

c) While Thrallherd does lose 2 levels of manifesting, Practised Manifester can remove a lot of the penalty.

Or don't take the last lvl. It's just like a Leadership feat. For 1 lvl, not that great.

[magic9mushroom]

Combining the two is where it really gets bad. Like, scary bad worse than either alone aaaaahhhhh1111!!!!!11!!!!one!!

Hatchling Phaerimm Spell to Power Erudite 10/Anarchic Initiate 8/Tainted Scholar 1/Subverted Psion 1! :smallbiggrin:

Or the old standby of Beholder Mage and Ardent, I guess. Looking something like Ardent 1/Beholder Mage 1/Ardent +1/Cerebremancer 1/Tainted Scholar 2/Cerebremancer +5/Ardent +8 (hooray for Dominant Ideal)/Subverted Psion 1.

[Ashiel]

I'm set to play in a DnD campaign with a rogue, a necromancer, and an artificer, all of us are fifth level, and I was considering filling out the fighter role indirectly by means of a Shaper's astral constructs as I've always wanted to try out a class this conducive to creativity. One trip through WoTC's forums later, and I'm completely confused. I've got one nebulous idea about setting up for going Constructor, another about going Shadow Mind for Tainted Construction and the benefits to Metacreativity, and still another about taking Vow of Poverty for Words of Creation and other Exalted feats at the cost of two feats. In short, I need something of a concrete recommendation about how to develop a Shaper that can produce the most effective astral constructs possible, and the rest of what I'd like to do (fabricate, minor creation) I can shape around it.

Is there a particularly effective astral construct Shaper build out there that could work from level five on?

First order of business to have a decent summoner style Shaper is to not play with the Complete Psionic errata, which is both not official errata download-able from the WotC (last I checked) or part of the SRD (which includes official errata to my knowledge). In short, Complete Psionic bars having more than 1 astral construct at a time - considering the fact no other caster type has such a limitation; and the errata in the book came from one of the writers being annoyed with a Wilder in his game who Wild-Surged his/her Astral Constructs; it is questionable at best and complete idiocy in all honesty.

The Boost Construct feat is good for pulling a little more versatility from your constructs. Summon Monster or Nature's Ally spells have a very wide assortment of creatures for different situations; so to be comparable you'll need to be able to pick a few extra powers for your rather generic constructs.

As noted by others, the 3.5 Revised Constructor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b) prestige class is the best thing for a psionic summoner, hands down. The Constructor is like the Malconvoker for the Psion (Malconvokers are one of the only prestige classes to give up caster levels and still be worth it); eventually allowing you to: create 1 hour/level worker constructs, create multiple constructs at once, manifest astral construct as if quickened, as well as get a number of construct buffs. If you want to specialize in constructs, then this class is for you. Practiced Manifester helps alleviate the manifester level reduction.

As for Vow of Poverty, you could go that route. I don't really recommend it though, since magic items tend to be better in general. This is doubly true for Psions who can manifest powers from other creatures and power stones using their PP (cited here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnknownPowerFr omAnothersPowersKnown)). This helps maintain some versatility.

Also, since psionics isn't disrupted by armor; if you plan to use few to no attack-roll based powers (no rays or touch attacks) and just use Astral Constructs, targeted, or AoE effects (such as Energy Wall, Wall of Ectoplasm, or Ego Whip), then you may want to consider wearing armor - eventually magical armor - which can help keep you safe while you're manifesting your astral constructs (a 1 round action).

If you do decide to go with the Vow of Poverty option, you shouldn't be too hindered and can still wear armor (just not nice armor). I'm not a big fan of VoP though (it doesn't work very well for anything except maybe Druids).

Otherwise, I can just offer a few tips for any summoning inclined person.
Astral Construct Tips
Astral Constructs have a few advantages to help compete against traditional summoning spells and effects.

Astral Constructs are in fact Constructs and are not summoned or called; they are in fact created as per the Creation subtype of the power. This benefits allows them to exist within an antimagic field; which is a big help.
Astral Constructs do not have alignments, subtypes, and aren't summoned. Spells such as protection from evil or magic circle against law for example cannot ward against an astral construct.
Astral Constructs have construct immunities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#constructType). Take advantage of these qualities; such as using them to fight creatures who like using mind-affecting powers, poisons, energy or ability drain or damage, etc. Also - low-light and darkvision 60ft.
Even at higher levels, 1st level constructs are useful for things like setting off traps, using aid-another actions for party members, flanking, and so on. Sometimes it's not useful to summon the biggest baddest construct you can, but a 1 PP construct who can allow the rogue to flank will be appreciated.
At higher levels, the Concussion construct power is a good one. It allows for a weak force-based attack by your construct each round as a swift action. This is surprisingly good for pestering people, disrupting casters, or just adding a little bit more damage to things.
An astral construct with DR X/magic treats its natural attacks as magical, as per the Damage Reduction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction) rules.
Combat maneuvers. For the love of god take advantage of the natural strength and size that most high level constructs sport. Use them to grapple and annoy opponents. At higher levels the Trip and Constrict abilities work well, as does the Poison Touch ability when combined with Constrict.

However, astral constructs have several weaknesses next to traditional summon or called creatures.

An astral construct has horrible saving throws. Most creatures summoned via summon monster I-IX are outsiders or magical beasts; generally having both perfect base attacks and solid saving throws. Many of them can be immune or resistant to a lot of things that the constructs aren't.
An astral construct has vulnerabilities to anything that adversely affects constructs. They are easily targeted by Favored Enemy, Construct Bane, and similar in-game effects. This makes fighting Astral Constructs easier than fighting a number of summoned and called monsters because their is less variety in their types.
An astral construct is not as useful for extra spell capabilities like the traditional summon spells provide. Nature's Ally spells can summon things like Unicorns, Nixie, Janni, Pixie, and Djinni; with each one sporting some sort of spell-like ability or magical assistance - such as with the unicorn being able to heal your party as well as fight.

Summon Monster spells are even more versatile for this reason, and sport creatures like Dretch (cast's stinking cloud, which is the same level spell as the spell that summons the Dretch), Mephits (any kind, sports a variety of spell-like abilities), Yeth Hounds and Howlers (special attacks that are similar to spells), Hound Archons (a few cleric spells at will and a competent fighter, sports an aura of menace), and so on. Eventually the Summon Monster list allows the arcanist to summon stuff like Ice Devils who can cast Wall of Ice at will for maximum battlefield control.
Less versatility. Astral Constructs tend to be fairly strait-forward. They're like build-your-own-fighter and slap a few special abilities on it such as increase AC, energy resistances, and so forth. Generally speaking, you won't have the ability to play your constructs directly to enemy weaknesses as with summoned creatures.

[Pluto]

Funny thing about Subverted Psion is that it's nowhere near as broken as Tainted Scholar, because the power points aren't all that huge (at level 20, you can only get about +100 or so pp, which is like 25% more, compared to the TS's 200-300% extra spells), and you don't get a bonus to DCs.
I shudder to think of Tainted Scholar as the measuring stick of class utility.

[Lycanthromancer]

I had a shaper/constructor once, and he was, by far, the most fun I've ever had playing a character.

If you like using a few really versatile abilities and enjoy thinking outside the box to overcome your problems, this is definitely something you want to look into.

I used Linked Power to speed up manifesting times, and used wall of ectoplasm, time hop, astral construct, and psionic minor creation all the time, for everything. The only time I used another power was when I was in a mass battle and energy wall was used to wipe out masses of low-level monks mooks. I specialized in endurance, and never got below half-pp on any day past about 5th level; I dumped the remaining pp into my portable hole each night in the form of quintessence (and would've used it too, if it weren't for those meddling kids the campaign ending prematurely).

Remember, A.) you don't have to augment to the maximum for every manifestation, as low-level powers used intelligently can do more than your highest level ones used stupidly, B.) shapers have some of the most wildly versatile abilities in the entire game if you use them well, and C.) thinking outside the box is your friend.

Use psionic minor creation to make an amber hamster ball for you to roll around in (with slots in it large enough to manifest out of. Use it for making poison. For keys. For food. For ale. For tools. For weapons. For armor. For flammables (see: pine pitch). See, anything you can think of that's made of plant materials, you can make.

Astral constructs are useful as combatants, as disposable minions, as trapspringers, as soft cover, as channels for Aid Another (you can do this while flanking), and some skill checks, as blockades for hallways and doorways, as damage control, as the means to enter a dangerous area to perform some task (such as pulling orphans out of their flammable orphanages), as distractions (see: confusing the blindsight of a blinded dragon, or by turning a corner and sending one that is similar in build to you down another hallway for attackers to pursue), and so on.

Time hop can be used to protect allies, to disable traps, to pull the Uber MacGuffin out of danger, to ruin the mounted ubercharger's day by turning him into an unmounted not-quite-so-uber-charger, to collapse structures and devices through pulling out a load-bearing lynch-pin, to remove obstructions in your way (such as doors and locked treasure chests), and to pull interesting stunts predicated on the fact that whatever you pull out of the time-stream eventually comes back as if it weren't removed (though the situation may have changed in the meantime).

Think of the fun you can have!

[Draz74]

While Vow of Poverty doesn't really make anyone more powerful, Psions are part of a very exclusive club (with Druids, Totemists, Incarnates, and possibly carefully-built Unarmed Swordsages) of classes that VoP doesn't hurt much either. So if you want Vow of Poverty RP-wise, go for it.

Also, if you find at some point that you have spare feats for some reason, Shape Soulmeld(s) and Psycarnum Infusion is a favorite combination of mine. Especially if you go Vow of Poverty. If you go this route, make sure to pick up the Psionic Open Chakra 4th-level power.


b) - and the bonus to Int VoP can get you (+8) is less than you can get with items (+6 Item +5 Tome). Unless you find a friendly NPC wizard of 17th level or higher, which isn't all that likely.

Last I checked, Psions can learn Reality Revision and get the same stat-pumping utility as Wish, self-contained. :smalltongue:

[Amphetryon]

Doc Roc posted a link around here somewhere to the Big Guy's With Me build on WotC; you can mine it for useful ideas.

[faceroll]

b) "Not particularly dependent on items"? I'm not particularly good with all the item stuff myself, but there's stuff you will be wanting - and the bonus to Int VoP can get you (+8) is less than you can get with items (+6 Item +5 Tome). Unless you find a friendly NPC wizard of 17th level or higher, which isn't all that likely.

Um, you ARE a thrallherd. Eventually, you get a level 19 wizard pal to hang out with, if you want.

Can't toss around minions willy-nilly while be good, though.


c) While Thrallherd does lose 2 levels of manifesting, Practised Manifester can remove a lot of the penalty.

tru dat

[PinkysBrain]

Thrallherd is undoubtedly more powerful in every way, it's also undoubtedly broken. So lets go back to optimizing astral construct ...

Usually I like the straight wilder for the augmentation ... but since you use mind's eye you just can't beat the psion with personal construct ACF with the constructor PrC. Overchannel is a given.

Tained construction is a bit meh, takes two feats ... fear effects are broken, so I personally simply wouldn't use those and with the save the ability score damage probably won't stack up very fast.

[magic9mushroom]

I shudder to think of Tainted Scholar as the measuring stick of class utility.

I do too much TO. :smallfrown:

[ScionoftheVoid]

I do too much TO. :smallfrown:

Oh, don't be silly. There is no such thing as too much TO. Cheer up.:smallwink:

IIRC, there are some good ACFs for Psionic characters on the Wizards site. The Shaper ones seemed particularly good, I seem to remember.