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taltamir
2010-03-05, 08:28 AM
what is the most broken race one can pick? is it the phaerim?


Phaerimm are from Lost Empires of Faerun. They get inherent Sorc casting equal to character level, and Sorc levels stack with this (which means you can double-dip). Hatchling Phaerimm have only 1 RHD, which goes away when you take class levels, and +2 LA, which you can buy off (see above). Hence by taking 9 levels in Sorcerer and buying off your LA, you have effective Sorcerer level = character level + Sorc levels = 18, and you can cast 9th level spells, while being still ECL 9. Also, they cast their sorcerer spells as though they were SLAs, so no counterspelling, no Spellcraft, no ASF, no material components, no XP costs (!). Fun times.
because they sure seem like it...
is there an even cheesier race you can play?

Vizzerdrix
2010-03-05, 08:34 AM
Kobolds, whisper gnomes, and.......

Quirinus_Obsidian
2010-03-05, 08:36 AM
Taking a Feral humanoid (+1 LA , makes it a monstrous humanoid) and throwing on the Monster of Legend template (+0 LA, +2 CR, can be applied to a Monstrous humanoid ) you gain +14 to STR, a bunch to DEX and CON, and some INT and CHA.

Good luck getting this by your DM. :smallfrown:


Kobolds, whisper gnomes, and.......

Kobolds I understand, but Whisper Gnomes? :smallconfused:

magic9mushroom
2010-03-05, 08:39 AM
Kobolds, whisper gnomes, and.......

Oh, come on. A Hatchling Phaerimm has +6 to Dex and +2 to Wis and Cha. That's much better than a Whisper Gnome even without the free Sorc levels. And while Kobolds are very powerful, barring Pun-Pun (which can be done by any character with Pazuzu) they can't measure up to Phaerimm.

DonDuckie
2010-03-05, 08:39 AM
Taking a Feral humanoid (+1 LA , makes it a monstrous humanoid) and throwing on the Monster of Legend template (+0 LA, +2 CR, can be applied to a Monstrous humanoid ) you gain +14 to STR, a bunch to DEX and CON, and some INT and CHA.

Good luck getting this by your DM. :smallfrown:



Kobolds I understand, but Whisper Gnomes? :smallconfused:

where would I find these goodies? I think my DM could go for it - very roleplay oriented campaign.

Cyclocone
2010-03-05, 08:40 AM
Sarrukh.
Anything that lets you qualify for Illithid Savant.

Grumman
2010-03-05, 08:40 AM
Taking a Feral humanoid (+1 LA , makes it a monstrous humanoid) and throwing on the Monster of Legend template (+0 LA, +2 CR, can be applied to a Monstrous humanoid ) you gain +14 to STR, a bunch to DEX and CON, and some INT and CHA.

Good luck getting this by your DM. :smallfrown:
The Monster of Legend is not LA +0, it is LA -, meaning that by default you cannot play one. The 3.5 update gives a Level Adjustment, but it's +7, not +0.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-05, 08:45 AM
Sarrukh.
Anything that lets you qualify for Illithid Savant.

I'm not sure Sarrukhs are playable, and even if they are, use of them would have allowed you to ascend as something else anyway.

Illithid Savant is hax if and only if you can find good characters to brainsuck, and somehow manage to brainsuck them. Theoretically, it can do anything. Practically? Not so fast.

Cyclocone
2010-03-05, 08:48 AM
I'm not sure Sarrukhs are playable, and even if they are, use of them would have allowed you to ascend as something else anyway.

Yeah, I can't remember if they were ever given an official CR.:smallconfused:


Illithid Savant is hax if and only if you can find good characters to brainsuck, and somehow manage to brainsuck them. Theoretically, it can do anything. Practically? Not so fast.

Gate.

Sliver
2010-03-05, 08:50 AM
Dvati, but not broken in the really OP way..

Thieves
2010-03-05, 08:51 AM
Q: Are kobolds broken only by using some dragon-heritage cheesonsense?

magic9mushroom
2010-03-05, 08:53 AM
Yeah, I can't remember if they were ever given an official CR.:smallconfused:



Gate.

You still have to pull off a nonlethal KO with your underwhelming mind flayer-ness and then eat their brain. This can be difficult. That's all I'm saying.

Also, scrolls of Gate are kinda expensive...

Tyndmyr
2010-03-05, 08:56 AM
Q: Are kobolds broken only by using some dragon-heritage cheesonsense?

Non-dragonwrought kobolds are kind of subpar. Terrible physical penalties, without correspondingly large gains.

Basically, there's little reason to play a standard kobold. Dragonwrought kobolds are good, yes. Not "free sorc levels = you char level" good, though. Not even close.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-05, 09:05 AM
Q: Are kobolds broken only by using some dragon-heritage cheesonsense?

Dragonwrought + Aging to Venerable before beginning gives them quite good mental stats, and the Dragon type can be useful.

The most infamous abuse involves a debated interpretation under which Dragonwrought Kobolds qualify for Sovereign Archetypes (Dragons of Eberron), which are incredibly powerful.

AslanCross
2010-03-05, 09:09 AM
Probably not horribly broken as Pun-pun, but seriously, I would never allow Thri-Kreen in any of my campaigns. It has a total ECL of 4, but it gets a serious bunch of stuff on it.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2010-03-05, 09:40 AM
The Monster of Legend is not LA +0, it is LA -, meaning that by default you cannot play one. The 3.5 update gives a Level Adjustment, but it's +7, not +0.

Ahh, must find the 3.5 update. :smalltongue:

Tyndmyr
2010-03-05, 09:44 AM
Dragonwrought + Aging to Venerable before beginning gives them quite good mental stats, and the Dragon type can be useful.

The most infamous abuse involves a debated interpretation under which Dragonwrought Kobolds qualify for Sovereign Archetypes (Dragons of Eberron), which are incredibly powerful.

I would argue that without that, they are, while still quite powerful, not broken. Mostly because the stat boosts are great, but epic feats are...nice, but mostly inaccessible without heavy requirements that you can't meet without cheese.

Dragonwrought kobolds aren't broken unless you combo them to make them so.

Volkov
2010-03-05, 09:53 AM
Beholders and beholder kin, why you ask? Because of the Beholder mage prestige class.

JeenLeen
2010-03-05, 09:54 AM
I heard there's a race (Black Ethergaut?) that is something like LA 18 but +20 Int and cast spells as a 19th level wizard. (I'm sure I'm off a bit on the numbers, but I think the relative amounts are something like that.) Pretty sure it's MMIII-V, as those are the ones my DM had but I did not.

It's only playable at near epic levels, and class abilities might be better than +20 Int, but that's a really high DC on your save-or-dies.

I've also heard Dragonborn Aquatic Half-orcs are a great LA 0 race. Not horribly broken like the stuff mentioned above, but a lot of plusses with almost no negatives.

Cyclocone
2010-03-05, 09:55 AM
I can't belive I forgot the Sharn! They're the kind of thing that gave FR it's bad name.

Volkov
2010-03-05, 09:56 AM
I heard there's a race (Black Ethergaut?) that is something like LA 18 but +20 Int and cast spells as a 19th level wizard. (I'm sure I'm off a bit on the numbers, but I think the relative amounts are something like that.) Pretty sure it's MMIII-V, as those are the ones my DM had but I did not.

It's only playable at near epic levels, and class abilities might be better than +20 Int, but that's a really high DC on your save-or-dies.

I've also heard Dragonborn Aquatic Half-orcs are a great LA 0 race. Not horribly broken like the stuff mentioned above, but a lot of plusses with almost no negatives.

It's in the fiend folio.

Coplantor
2010-03-05, 10:14 AM
In the dark sun setting there was the Pyrine or something like that, it was unplayable though, becasue they where all dead and they had 16 racial HD and a +16 LA, but I think they gaved manifesting as a psion and casting as a druid = to HD. Or something like that, maybe it was Sorc. instead of druid.

Wings of Peace
2010-03-05, 10:20 AM
The Ghostwalk Campaign Setting Ghost Template.

Greenish
2010-03-05, 10:33 AM
I've also heard Dragonborn Aquatic Half-orcs are a great LA 0 race. Not horribly broken like the stuff mentioned above, but a lot of plusses with almost no negatives.Well, +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Cha, -2 Int. I'm think you meant Dragonborn Water Orcs, which make decent melee'ers with +4 Str and +4 Con. Not broken by any stretch of imagination, but quite solid for +0 LA.

2xMachina
2010-03-05, 11:02 AM
You're missing the Half-Minotaur to turn it uber.

For +1 LA, you get a ton of str.

Gametime
2010-03-05, 11:11 AM
You're missing the Half-Minotaur to turn it uber.

For +1 LA, you get a ton of str.

This. The other templates from that Dragon are pretty bad, too, but the half-minotaur is absurd. WHY they thought applying the stat changes for increasing a size category on top of additional stat boosts was a good idea, I'll never know.

They pale in comparison to the options listed here, but Lesser Aasimar beat the pants off of almost any non-Dragonwrought Kobold LA 0 race for casters that like wisdom and charisma.

Sliver
2010-03-05, 11:13 AM
In the dark sun setting there was the Pyrine or something like that, it was unplayable though, becasue they where all dead and they had 16 racial HD and a +16 LA, but I think they gaved manifesting as a psion and casting as a druid = to HD. Or something like that, maybe it was Sorc. instead of druid.

So a really bad version of MT?

RandomLunatic
2010-03-05, 11:15 AM
Add to the "Broken in the other direction" pile the Ocean Strider. Sure, it has Huge size, has some nice SLAs, but it also has an ECL of +35. Try making a useful character out of that. Oh, it has 30 Fey HD, and surprisingly bad physcial abilities, so good luck trying to use that size in melee.

Coplantor
2010-03-05, 11:16 AM
So a really bad version of MT?

Gotta ask this, MT?

2xMachina
2010-03-05, 11:18 AM
ECL 65 before class. Nope, not much use, except to feed xp from.

arguskos
2010-03-05, 11:19 AM
This. The other templates from that Dragon are pretty bad, too, but the half-minotaur is absurd. WHY they thought applying the stat changes for increasing a size category on top of additional stat boosts was a good idea, I'll never know.
Uh... the rest of those templates are pretty meh, actually. There's a few standouts, but generally, they're "eh".

Half-Doppelganger: Not worth LA 2 at all, seriously, it's just bad.
Half-Janni: Seriously not LA 3. I mean, Planar Jaunt is nice and all, but LA 3? No.
Half-Minotaur: Amazing. Totally worth LA 1, possibly more depending on the power level of the game.
Half-Nymph: Actually probably worth it for the right sort of character. LA 2 is hard to swallow, but it gets Awesome Beauty and +4 Cha, which is great.
Half-Ogre: Amazing like the Minotaur, but was actually printed somewhere else later as a race (Savage Species and somewhere else I think) and is less amazing there.
Half-Rakshasa: Not worth LA 3, I'm sorry. Good, but not LA 3 good.
Half-Satyr: Toss up personally. You don't get much, but you don't lose much either. I'd say it's weaker than most LA 0 races, but Fey might be worth something, maybe? Probably not.

So... you have the Half-Minotaur (great meleer), the overridden Half-Ogre, and the Half-Nymph (amazing for Cha-casters... oh wait... LA 2). Everything else is not worth it.

Yeah, uh, not seeing how they're all that really. Cut some of those LAs and we'll talk though. :smallamused:

2xMachina
2010-03-05, 11:21 AM
Gotta ask this, MT?

Mystic Theurge.

Though IMO, that race, while not spectacular, is probably worth it's ECL (lower HP though). 32 class lvls for 32 ECL sounds ok

Grumman
2010-03-05, 11:22 AM
Add to the "Broken in the other direction" pile the Ocean Strider. Sure, it has Huge size, has some nice SLAs, but it also has an ECL of +35. Try making a useful character out of that. Oh, it has 30 Fey HD, and surprisingly bad physcial abilities, so good luck trying to use that size in melee.
I'd never actually noticed it had Fey HD. That thing really needs an LA of -10 or so.


Gotta ask this, MT?
Mystic Theurge.

Coplantor
2010-03-05, 11:26 AM
Mystic Theurge.

Though IMO, that race, while not spectacular, is probably worth it's ECL (lower HP though). 32 class lvls for 32 ECL sounds ok

Should've guessed so, I thought he was talking about a race.

Sliver
2010-03-05, 11:32 AM
Mystic Theurge.

Though IMO, that race, while not spectacular, is probably worth it's ECL (lower HP though). 32 class lvls for 32 ECL sounds ok

Only you are at epic ECL without access to epic feats or 9th level spells and still need the epic amount of xp to get from 32 to 33 to get them at both, while your friends got those at level 17. Not really worth it.

2xMachina
2010-03-05, 11:35 AM
Actually, IIRC, ECL 21+ qualifies you for Epic feats.

No 9's hurt though.

Sliver
2010-03-05, 11:49 AM
Actually, IIRC, ECL 21+ qualifies you for Epic feats.

No 9's hurt though.

There is a difference between character level and effective character level I believe..

herrhauptmann
2010-03-05, 11:55 AM
Elans I think can be surprisingly overpowered without much work.
Their racial abilities to negate damage for minimal powerpoints is nice, and being immune to charm effects at low levels is very good.

The kicker is when it's an elan wizard (I know, psionic race, should be a psionic character...), being abberations opens them up to some nice polymorph/alterself cheese. A lot better than jumping through hoops and needing a 5 paragraph description of why a human mage can polymorph into similar creatures as an elan.

Greenish
2010-03-05, 12:01 PM
The kicker is when it's an elan wizard (I know, psionic race, should be a psionic character...), being abberations opens them up to some nice polymorph/alterself cheese. A lot better than jumping through hoops and needing a 5 paragraph description of why a human mage can polymorph into similar creatures as an elan.There is Metamorphosis and such stuff for your alter-selfy-cheesy needs in psionics too.

[Edit]: Elans also live forever and never need to eat, though warforged arguably do those better.

Raiki
2010-03-05, 12:10 PM
Haha.

I just really looked at the ocean strider for the first time, and it's freaking hilarious. The huge size creature with a special attack meant to take out boats, right? Except that with its strength mod and the DCs set to breach the hulls of the ships, it has exactly a 35% chance to sink a rowboat and no chance whatsoever of sinking a galley. Woo for racial abilities that don't do anything, and a +35 ECL to balance them.

I also laughed at the fact that if he rams a Galley (which would have cabins and cargo space beneath the hull, completely enclosed) everyone in the ship still needs to make a reflex save or apparently be teleported overboard.

~R~

2xMachina
2010-03-05, 01:25 PM
There is a difference between character level and effective character level I believe..

Hmm, I thought I read somewhere that ECL 21+ qualifies for epic feats.

Dr Bwaa
2010-03-05, 01:33 PM
Haha.

I just really looked at the ocean strider for the first time, and it's freaking hilarious. The huge size creature with a special attack meant to take out boats, right? Except that with its strength mod and the DCs set to breach the hulls of the ships, it has exactly a 35% chance to sink a rowboat and no chance whatsoever of sinking a galley. Woo for racial abilities that don't do anything, and a +35 ECL to balance them.

I also laughed at the fact that if he rams a Galley (which would have cabins and cargo space beneath the hull, completely enclosed) everyone in the ship still needs to make a reflex save or apparently be teleported overboard.

~R~

There is not much that WotC did right when it came to "things that can break ships." Actually that goes for a lot of things, but still, this one is particularly funny :smallbiggrin:

Optimystik
2010-03-05, 01:40 PM
[Edit]: Elans also live forever and never need to eat, though warforged arguably do those better.

Yes, but Warforged/Psiforged don't get Elan Retainment, an amazing racial feat in CPsi.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-05, 02:38 PM
I say Strongheart Halfling for first and foremost.

also, in certain builds, Human is overpowered.

and last I come to Necropolitan. 0LA for a pseudolich. Most DMs waive the Bravo Sierra card here

Optimystik
2010-03-05, 03:33 PM
and last I come to Necropolitan. 0LA for a pseudolich. Most DMs waive the Bravo Sierra card here

It's technically +1 LA, it's just that you immediately buy it off (thus catching up with your party soon afterward.)

Tyndmyr
2010-03-05, 03:38 PM
and last I come to Necropolitan. 0LA for a pseudolich. Most DMs waive the Bravo Sierra card here

Without fun stuff like a phylactery, and with stuff like paying over a levels worth of xp. It's useful, but not nearly as cheesy as you make it out to be.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-05, 03:49 PM
Without fun stuff like a phylactery, and with stuff like paying over a levels worth of xp. It's useful, but not nearly as cheesy as you make it out to be.

Everyone loves infinite spells and save DCs...

Optimystik
2010-03-05, 03:58 PM
Everyone loves infinite spells and save DCs...

If you're referring to Taint, that's a failing of that system, and unrelated to Necropolitans.

If not, then what are you referring to?

faceroll
2010-03-05, 04:01 PM
Oh, come on. A Hatchling Phaerimm has +6 to Dex and +2 to Wis and Cha. That's much better than a Whisper Gnome even without the free Sorc levels. And while Kobolds are very powerful, barring Pun-Pun (which can be done by any character with Pazuzu) they can't measure up to Phaerimm.

It's also ECL 3. +6 dex is never worth 2 LA.


Non-dragonwrought kobolds are kind of subpar. Terrible physical penalties, without correspondingly large gains.

Basically, there's little reason to play a standard kobold. Dragonwrought kobolds are good, yes. Not "free sorc levels = you char level" good, though. Not even close.

A total of +9 to hide checks and +2 ac makes it a great low level race for casters or skill monkeys, without the mental boosts. Mix with one of the racial variants to get rid of the con penalty or lessen the str penalty, if you like.


Uh... the rest of those templates are pretty meh, actually. There's a few standouts, but generally, they're "eh".

Half-Doppelganger: Not worth LA 2 at all, seriously, it's just bad.
Half-Janni: Seriously not LA 3. I mean, Planar Jaunt is nice and all, but LA 3? No.
Half-Minotaur: Amazing. Totally worth LA 1, possibly more depending on the power level of the game.
Half-Nymph: Actually probably worth it for the right sort of character. LA 2 is hard to swallow, but it gets Awesome Beauty and +4 Cha, which is great.
Half-Ogre: Amazing like the Minotaur, but was actually printed somewhere else later as a race (Savage Species and somewhere else I think) and is less amazing there.
Half-Rakshasa: Not worth LA 3, I'm sorry. Good, but not LA 3 good.
Half-Satyr: Toss up personally. You don't get much, but you don't lose much either. I'd say it's weaker than most LA 0 races, but Fey might be worth something, maybe? Probably not.

So... you have the Half-Minotaur (great meleer), the overridden Half-Ogre, and the Half-Nymph (amazing for Cha-casters... oh wait... LA 2). Everything else is not worth it.

Yeah, uh, not seeing how they're all that really. Cut some of those LAs and we'll talk though. :smallamused:

That issue of Dragon is actually 3.5, while Savage Species is 3.0. The real half-ogre is in Races of Destiny, as a race.

taltamir
2010-03-05, 04:28 PM
Hmm, I thought I read somewhere that ECL 21+ qualifies for epic feats.

AFAIK it is neither ECL 21 nor character Level 21.
it is HD 21.
your racial hit dice + class hit dice must be 21 or higher to qualify for epic feats. your level adjustment does not count though.
So a 3RHD+15CL+5 LA does not get epic feats. but a 7RHD+15CL does.

people, if you name a previously unmentioned race, please include a brief description of why it is actually good, what it does, and where it is from. rather then just mentioning its name and expecting everyone to know.

Greenish
2010-03-05, 04:38 PM
Yes, but Warforged/Psiforged don't get Elan Retainment, an amazing racial feat in CPsi.I wasn't actually arguing on which race makes better psions, but which ones live forever better and survive without food better, as useless as those skills are from playing perspective.

Anyhow, what does elan retainment do?

[Edit]: Meh, found it (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=3).

Tao the Ninja
2010-03-05, 06:34 PM
Beholders and beholder kin, why you ask? Because of the Beholder mage prestige class.

beholderkin don't work.

Asbestos
2010-03-05, 08:13 PM
The Ghostwalk Campaign Setting Ghost Template.

The one you put on yourself when you died or some other one?

KellKheraptis
2010-03-05, 08:23 PM
Surprised no one has mentioned the Chronotyryn or Choker. Or for that matter, expanded upon the Sharn (hi, I cast umpteen spells naturally off two good lists through little ripples in space/time so you can't touch me!).

Niro
2010-03-05, 08:33 PM
Maybe I am misunderstanding something but...

Sand giant:
+16 Str
+10 Dex
+10 Con
+6 Wis
+2 Cha

Large Size
• 40’ Movement, 10’ Burrow
• Low-light Vision
• +11 Natural Armor bonus to AC
• Level Adjustment +4
• 15HD Giant, which grants skill points, Feats, BAB, &
Base Save Bonuses.
• Fire subtype, so immune to Fire and Vulnerable to
Cold.

Isn't that good? All plusses and you pretty much start out 15 levels :\
(But it is more than likely that I am misunderstanding the racial levels)

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-05, 08:43 PM
Class levels are much better than RHD so it is not that good. Maybe in a gestalt game when you have to gestalt with a monstrous race.

ericgrau
2010-03-05, 09:14 PM
Ya at class level 1 you wouldn't start as a level 5 character with that race you'd start as a level 20 character. Racial Hit Dice count as levels. So you're, say, a barbarian 1, giant HD 15, with all those bonuses while everyone else is, say, a barbarian 20. OTOH your attack bonus is only a little behind the barbarian, your HP is much higher, your saves are much higher and your AC is far higher. Plus a couple other minor abilities. No improved uncanny dodge and so on, but your flat-footed AC doesn't need it. It's decent but not overpowered.

sofawall
2010-03-05, 09:24 PM
AFAIK it is neither ECL 21 nor character Level 21.
it is HD 21.
your racial hit dice + class hit dice must be 21 or higher to qualify for epic feats. your level adjustment does not count though.
So a 3RHD+15CL+5 LA does not get epic feats. but a 7RHD+15CL does.

people, if you name a previously unmentioned race, please include a brief description of why it is actually good, what it does, and where it is from. rather then just mentioning its name and expecting everyone to know.


Epic characters—those whose character level is 21st or higher—are handled slightly differently from nonepic characters.

Does that resolve anything?

magic9mushroom
2010-03-05, 11:10 PM
I would argue that without that, they are, while still quite powerful, not broken. Mostly because the stat boosts are great, but epic feats are...nice, but mostly inaccessible without heavy requirements that you can't meet without cheese.

Dragonwrought kobolds aren't broken unless you combo them to make them so.

I'd agree. I was pointing out what is useful about them. They only get into the supercheese if you allow them to be True Dragons and take stuff like Sovereign Archetypes.


Beholders and beholder kin, why you ask? Because of the Beholder mage prestige class.

Only True Beholders can take that, and they have LA -, so they're not overpowered because they are not a PC-allowed race.


It's also ECL 3. +6 dex is never worth 2 LA.

At ECL 4 a Whisper Gnome casts as a Wiz 4.

At ECL 4 a Hatchling Phaerimm casts as a Sorc 4. So no difference there.

The Hatchling Phaerimm has -4 Str, +4 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Wis, and +4 Cha in racial adjustment compared to the Whisper Gnome (with Str as a caster dump stat I'd give that to the Phaerimm). The Phaerimm also has the advantage of being Tiny and being able to fly. The Whisper Gnome has the advantage of better hit points.

The Phaerimm is weaker at ECL 3, but after ECL 4 they pull well ahead.

taltamir
2010-03-05, 11:14 PM
Surprised no one has mentioned the Chronotyryn or Choker. Or for that matter, expanded upon the Sharn (hi, I cast umpteen spells naturally off two good lists through little ripples in space/time so you can't touch me!).

please clarify.


Does that resolve anything?

who is the other quote of?

mikethepoor
2010-03-05, 11:17 PM
I'd like to clear up a few things about the ocean strider.

Monster Manual 2 states that its ECL is equal to its class levels +35. The example gives an ocean strider ranger 1 as being an ECL 36 character. Since it has 30 hit dice from its monster class, its LA is only +5, not +35. Still a ridiculously underpowered race though.

As for most overpowered race, I'm gonna have to chip in a vote for human; that bonus feat allows all sorts of extra good stuff to happen.

sofawall
2010-03-05, 11:19 PM
who is the other quote of?

The SRD, actually.

FMArthur
2010-03-05, 11:35 PM
Humans are on the upper end of "powerful but allowable". Some of the other races mentioned in this topic far surpass it, including the one the the OP. I don't see how a human can stack up against such a monstrosity. It almost sounds like something out of that D&D Wiki.

Fiery Diamond
2010-03-05, 11:48 PM
It is so very, very strange to see how different people's opinions of what LA should be worth are.

I have had people say: "It has wings? Nah, that's okay, if that's it, LA 0."
I have had people say: "It has wings? That by itself should be LA +1, any of those templates and races that give it easier are way out of whack."
I have had people say: "It has wings? Throw in a couple stat bonuses and make it LA +2."

I have also had people say: "It has wings and +2 Dex? Sounds like LA 0 to me!"

Very, very strange.

Eldariel
2010-03-06, 12:06 AM
It is so very, very strange to see how different people's opinions of what LA should be worth are.

I have had people say: "It has wings? Nah, that's okay, if that's it, LA 0."
I have had people say: "It has wings? That by itself should be LA +1, any of those templates and races that give it easier are way out of whack."
I have had people say: "It has wings? Throw in a couple stat bonuses and make it LA +2."

I have also had people say: "It has wings and +2 Dex? Sounds like LA 0 to me!"

Very, very strange.

It's 'cause most people don't stop to think what that one level entails. It's also because that one level can mean so many different things. The classes with linear power increase like melee combatants lose much less than classes with exponential power increase, like casters.

Especially since most of high level Fighter's tricks comes from WBL while most of high level Caster's tricks comes from class features; WBL is not postponed at all by LA, while class features are. So the differences in opinion are pretty natural; and then there are people who just don't think things through and compare the LA races to WoTC examples (most of which are just horribly gimped) and go by those instead.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2010-03-06, 01:03 AM
At ECL 4 a Whisper Gnome casts as a Wiz 4.

huh? where in the Races of Stone does it state this? :smallconfused:

tyckspoon
2010-03-06, 01:05 AM
huh? where in the Races of Stone does it state this? :smallconfused:

"At ECL 4 a (level 4 Wizard) Whisper Gnome casts as a Wiz 4." The comparison was of a Phaerimm with HD-derived casting and 2 LA to a LA 0 casters, such as a Whisper Gnome, which is broadly considered to be very powerful for an LA 0 race.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-06, 02:19 AM
huh? where in the Races of Stone does it state this? :smallconfused:

As in, it casts as a Wiz 4 if it goes Wizard, which is the main context I've seen it in. A Phaerimm (LA +2) with two Sorcerer levels casts as a Sorc 4, because of the dodgy wording mentioned in the OP (which is a quote of my post in another thread). I was responding to a claim that the Phaerimm's LA was excessively bad for casters.

taltamir
2010-03-06, 08:30 AM
The SRD, actually.

ok... its still pretty vague but it seems to support what I said.
AFAIK RHD count as "character levels"... hence my point that LA is NOT counted, but RHD is. character levels = PC levels + NPC levels + RHD

tcrudisi
2010-03-06, 09:18 AM
Phaerimm are from Lost Empires of Faerun. They get inherent Sorc casting equal to character level, and Sorc levels stack with this (which means you can double-dip). Hatchling Phaerimm have only 1 RHD, which goes away when you take class levels, and +2 LA, which you can buy off (see above). Hence by taking 9 levels in Sorcerer and buying off your LA, you have effective Sorcerer level = character level + Sorc levels = 18, and you can cast 9th level spells, while being still ECL 9. Also, they cast their sorcerer spells as though they were SLAs, so no counterspelling, no Spellcraft, no ASF, no material components, no XP costs (!). Fun times.

Oh how this makes me want to play one last 3.x game, just to show my group (and myself) how horribly unbalanced the system was. We thought we knew how to optimize, but that was before any of us would really look on the forums. So our best characters weren't really that impressive. I think the best one was a Druid that could do about 2,000 points of damage in one round, but that was at around level 15. Or the jump charger who would do about 500 points of damage, but that was at level 20.

So yeah... we weren't nearly as good as we thought we were. I'd like to put some of the knowledge I've gained to good use just to see how broken the game can become when the right knowledge is applied. I'm really curious to see this first-hand.

Myou
2010-03-06, 09:21 AM
Oh how this makes me want to play one last 3.x game, just to show my group (and myself) how horribly unbalanced the system was. We thought we knew how to optimize, but that was before any of us would really look on the forums. So our best characters weren't really that impressive. I think the best one was a Druid that could do about 2,000 points of damage in one round, but that was at around level 15. Or the jump charger who would do about 500 points of damage, but that was at level 20.

So yeah... we weren't nearly as good as we thought we were. I'd like to put some of the knowledge I've gained to good use just to see how broken the game can become when the right knowledge is applied. I'm really curious to see this first-hand.

Yes, no game system was ever more unbalanced than 3.5. You'll be saying the same about 4e once it has enough splatbooks. :smalltongue:

magic9mushroom
2010-03-06, 09:24 AM
Yes, no game system was ever more unbalanced than 3.5. You'll be saying the same about 4e once it has enough splatbooks. :smalltongue:

Morrowind's Alchemy mechanic called with a lawsuit for defamation. :smallbiggrin:

tcrudisi
2010-03-06, 09:29 AM
Yes, no game system was ever more unbalanced than 3.5. You'll be saying the same about 4e once it has enough splatbooks. :smalltongue:

I wasn't comparing it to 4e. :-P And, I disagree, actually. OWoD was pretty darn unbalanced too. Heck, starting level mages could pretty much break the world. It's like Pun-Pun, except they all get it.

Myou
2010-03-06, 09:38 AM
I wasn't comparing it to 4e. :-P And, I disagree, actually. OWoD was pretty darn unbalanced too. Heck, starting level mages could pretty much break the world. It's like Pun-Pun, except they all get it.

I was joking. Every gaming system out is hugely broken. Most just get no attention so no-one notices the imbalnces, or have their glaring flaws handwaved as easily fixed with rule 0. :smallamused:

The gentlemen's agreement exists for a reason after all.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-06, 09:50 AM
please clarify.

Looked it up. Sharn are from Monsters of Faerun, updated in PGtF web enhancement.

They get 3.0 Haste, always on. Also, casting as a 7th level sorcerer and 5th level cleric at ECL 9 (4 HD + 5 LA). Also, they can make these weird portals through which they can attack and cast spells, but which don't allow retaliation.

The Dark Fiddler
2010-03-06, 10:02 AM
ok... its still pretty vague but it seems to support what I said.
AFAIK RHD count as "character levels"... hence my point that LA is NOT counted, but RHD is. character levels = PC levels + NPC levels + RHD

What are you talking about? LA counts towards ECL, which is the whole reason it's a penalty. Playing in a game with ECL 10 characters and with your character playing an LA +1 race with, say, 1 RHD, gives you 2 ECL, so you get 8 class levels.

So 15 levels, 4 RHD, and 2 LA would be ECL 21 and therefore qualify for epic feats.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-06, 10:05 AM
What are you talking about? LA counts towards ECL, which is the whole reason it's a penalty. Playing in a game with ECL 10 characters and with your character playing an LA +1 race with, say, 1 RHD, gives you 2 ECL, so you get 8 class levels.

So 15 levels, 4 RHD, and 2 LA would be ECL 21 and therefore qualify for epic feats.

LA counts towards ECL, not CL. The Character Level of the above is only 19, their Effective Character Level is 21. So they do not qualify for epic feats.

The Dark Fiddler
2010-03-06, 10:25 AM
LA counts towards ECL, not CL. The Character Level of the above is only 19, their Effective Character Level is 21. So they do not qualify for epic feats.

Oops, I thought it said that you needed ECL 21 to qualify. Please disregard my previous post.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-06, 10:27 AM
Oops, I thought it said that you needed ECL 21 to qualify. Please disregard my previous post.

Eh, 3.5 can be confusing at times with similar sounding terms, like Caster Level vs. Spellcaster Level. Forgiven. :smalltongue:

Telok
2010-03-06, 11:59 AM
I once had a fair bit of fun with a pixie (LA +6) Swordsage 1, Sorcerer 1 character with a couple of eternal wands (illusions), one of the necklaces that allowed you to summon huge scorpions (pre-errata) and a couple of healing belts.

I billed myself as "The Happy Spirit of Goodness and Light" and made sure to kill anyone who could ever see invisible. The game never did get to where I could qualify for the jade phoenix mage PrC, but it was hella fun while it lasted.

Half the party thought they were blessed, the other half knew they were cursed, and nobody wanted to stand watch alone for fear of my "prophetic visions" when I had illusions left at the end of the day.

I can't say that it was amazingly cheesy. But the weapon finesse/improved trip touch attacks to throw people off buildings or bridges worked really well on our humanoid enemies. And throwing people into an Evards Black Tentacle Rape or the scorpion was even better.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2010-03-06, 12:30 PM
"At ECL 4 a (level 4 Wizard) Whisper Gnome casts as a Wiz 4." The comparison was of a Phaerimm with HD-derived casting and 2 LA to a LA 0 casters, such as a Whisper Gnome, which is broadly considered to be very powerful for an LA 0 race.

Ahh, so that is only beneficial to one that would want to play a wizard. Thanks :)

faceroll
2010-03-06, 05:43 PM
What are you talking about? LA counts towards ECL, which is the whole reason it's a penalty. Playing in a game with ECL 10 characters and with your character playing an LA +1 race with, say, 1 RHD, gives you 2 ECL, so you get 8 class levels.

So 15 levels, 4 RHD, and 2 LA would be ECL 21 and therefore qualify for epic feats.

Besides what shroom said, if you have only one RHD, it is replaced by your first class level.


Ahh, so that is only beneficial to one that would want to play a wizard. Thanks :)

Nope. It's most beneficial to those who would want to play a sorc, since it gets sorc casting that stacks with sorc casting. However, you could go swordsage 18 or monk 18 or commoner 18, and still get 18 levels of sorc casting by ECL 20.

Eurus
2010-03-06, 07:11 PM
It is so very, very strange to see how different people's opinions of what LA should be worth are.

I have had people say: "It has wings? Nah, that's okay, if that's it, LA 0."
I have had people say: "It has wings? That by itself should be LA +1, any of those templates and races that give it easier are way out of whack."
I have had people say: "It has wings? Throw in a couple stat bonuses and make it LA +2."

I have also had people say: "It has wings and +2 Dex? Sounds like LA 0 to me!"

Very, very strange.

Well, wings might be worth +1 LA if you're a level 3 group, since flight is pretty hard to come by and the general assumption is that you don't have it, but if you're level 10 and it's the equivalent of one Overland Flight spell a day? No, not so much.

imperialspectre
2010-03-06, 08:26 PM
Well, wings might be worth +1 LA if you're a level 3 group, since flight is pretty hard to come by and the general assumption is that you don't have it, but if you're level 10 and it's the equivalent of one Overland Flight spell a day? No, not so much.

This is why LA buyoff exists.

Soranar
2010-03-06, 08:29 PM
LA 0 races that fly can usually do so by level 12 (raptoran, dragonborn of Bahamut)

hardly broken

magic9mushroom
2010-03-06, 10:48 PM
Ahh, so that is only beneficial to one that would want to play a wizard. Thanks :)

The comparison was for casters because that's where I've usually seen Whisper Gnomes brought up (for a wizard, they're awesome, as Dex and Con are very important and Str and Cha are dump stats). They're also quite good for roguish characters (although Cha is useful for UMD), but comparing non-casters to casters (and the overpoweredness of Phaerimms is almost entirely about their free Sorcerer casting) usually doesn't get much of anywhere, since casters > non-casters by a greater margin than the difference in most of the races.

deuxhero
2010-03-06, 10:55 PM
Any race that qualifys for Magic in the Blood+Phrenic Half-Fey

Eurus
2010-03-06, 10:55 PM
This is why LA buyoff exists.

Sadly, it's not always used, and can be used to accomplish some terribly unbalanced things (White Dragonspawn, was it?).

magic9mushroom
2010-03-06, 11:22 PM
Sadly, it's not always used, and can be used to accomplish some terribly unbalanced things (White Dragonspawn, was it?).

It also makes the Phaerimm worse than it already was. I mean, you can still get 9ths at level 11, but at least it makes triple 9s take some effort. With LA buyoff it's stupendously easy.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-06, 11:28 PM
It also makes the Phaerimm worse than it already was. I mean, you can still get 9ths at level 11, but at least it makes triple 9s take some effort. With LA buyoff it's stupendously easy.

Early entry psichic theurge?

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-06, 11:33 PM
Yes, no game system was ever more unbalanced than 3.5. You'll be saying the same about 4e once it has enough splatbooks. :smalltongue:

FATAL would like to have a word with you. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FATAL)

JaronK
2010-03-06, 11:43 PM
Because of the power difference in classes, most races are fine. Basically, only races good for casters are really going to be broken past the early levels. Sure, Half Minotaur Water Orc Fighter 4 is a powerful 5th level character... but a Human Wizard 15 is far stronger than a HMWO Mix of Melee Classes 14. As such I'd say the strongest races are Humans, Strongheart Halflings, Kobolds, and Gnomes, as all of these are great for casters.

JaronK

magic9mushroom
2010-03-07, 12:00 AM
Early entry psichic theurge?

Still requires you to use Ardent or Erudite + Practised Manifester, or use Alternative Source Spell, otherwise you can't get it.

Whereas with LA buyoff you can just go straight [Psionic Class] 10/Ur-Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 8 without any early entry shenanigans and still get triple 9s.


Because of the power difference in classes, most races are fine. Basically, only races good for casters are really going to be broken past the early levels. Sure, Half Minotaur Water Orc Fighter 4 is a powerful 5th level character... but a Human Wizard 15 is far stronger than a HMWO Mix of Melee Classes 14. As such I'd say the strongest races are Humans, Strongheart Halflings, Kobolds, and Gnomes, as all of these are great for casters.

JaronK

You forgot Phaerimm. Kinda odd, since they're mentioned in the OP.

sonofzeal
2010-03-07, 12:08 AM
FATAL would like to have a word with you. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FATAL)
Eh, I've actually made FATAL characters. It's not the worst-balanced one I've seen, partially because the only real choice you make through the whole chargen process is your gender.

I mean, it's one of the most tragically horrible examples of design gone wrong on so many fronts it's hard to count, but SenZar and World of Synnibarr probably top it for lack of balance.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-07, 12:34 AM
Eh, I've actually made FATAL characters. It's not the worst-balanced one I've seen, partially because the only real choice you make through the whole chargen process is your gender.

I mean, it's one of the most tragically horrible examples of design gone wrong on so many fronts it's hard to count, but SenZar and World of Synnibarr probably top it for lack of balance.

Well, FATAL is still unbalanced, because of the one choice you get, one option is obviously superior to the other.

Forevernade
2010-03-07, 02:54 AM
Well, FATAL is still unbalanced, because of the one choice you get, one option is obviously superior to the other.

Ahahahahha

Petrocorus
2010-03-07, 04:30 AM
Well, wings might be worth +1 LA if you're a level 3 group, since flight is pretty hard to come by and the general assumption is that you don't have it, but if you're level 10 and it's the equivalent of one Overland Flight spell a day? No, not so much.

What about using it for qualifying for ultimate magus?
Wiz 5 / UA 10. You could cast as a wizard 12 and a sorcerer 30, if i've understood well?


Other thing, what are the Kobolds pun-pun and pozuzu you're speaking about?


. but a Human Wizard 15 is far stronger than a HMWO Mix of Melee Classes 14. As such I'd say the strongest races are Humans, Strongheart Halflings, Kobolds, and Gnomes, as all of these are great for casters.


Where can you find the strongheart halflings?
What do you think of Gray Elves and their Dex and Int bonus?

magic9mushroom
2010-03-07, 04:51 AM
What about using it for qualifying for ultimate magus?
Wiz 5 / UA 10. You could cast as a wizard 12 and a sorcerer 30, if i've understood well?

Um, a) being able to fly doesn't qualify you for UM, b) UM doesn't work like that.


Other thing, what are the Kobolds pun-pun and pozuzu you're speaking about?

Pun-Pun is a Theoretical Optimisation build that gains infinite power.
Pazuzu is a Demon Lord, not a Kobold, and helps with the former.


Where can you find the strongheart halflings?

Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting I believe.

What do you think of Gray Elves and their Dex and Int bonus?

With Elven Generalist, quite good. Also good as Dragonborn if you houserule the inability of Elves to become Dragonborn.

Petrocorus
2010-03-07, 04:56 AM
Um, a) being able to fly doesn't qualify you for UM, b) UM doesn't work like that.


My bad, i took the wrong quote. I was willing to speak of the Phraerim and their free sorcerer level to qualify for UM.



Pun-Pun is a Theoretical Optimisation build that gains infinite power.
Pazuzu is a Demon Lord, not a Kobold, and helps with the former.

Wait... Infinite power?!!?

2xMachina
2010-03-07, 05:07 AM
One of Pun Pun abilities is to add ANY ability he wants.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-07, 05:10 AM
My bad, i took the wrong quote. I was willing to speak of the Phraerim and their free sorcerer level to qualify for UM.

Ah. It's kind of overkill. Besides, there are all sorts of better prestige classes, like Incantatrix, Tainted Scholar, and Shadowcraft Mage.

The former gives you significantly reduced cost of metamagic, the second gives you around quadruple spells per day and DCs around 50, the third if abused allows you to cast Maximised Empowered Twinned Energy Admixtured Searing Enervated Repeated Meteor Swarms out of a 2nd level slot.


Wait... Infinite power?!!?

There's an ability called Manipulate Form which allows you to alter any Scaled One of Toril (which a FR-native Kobold is). Really stupid wording means you can grant yourself any ability in published material and even ones you make up yourself. This means that you can, for example, make yourself immune to anything you don't willingly accept, and make yourself autosucceed at any attempted action.

Petrocorus
2010-03-07, 05:16 AM
Ah.

So, would the Wiz 5 / UM 10 works for a phraerim?



There's an ability called Manipulate Form which allows you to alter any Scaled One of Toril (which a FR-native Kobold is). Really stupid wording means you can grant yourself any ability in published material and even ones you make up yourself. This means that you can, for example, make yourself immune to anything you don't willingly accept, and make yourself autosucceed at any attempted action.
So, in Toril, Kobolds are Gods!

Also, thanks for the other answer.

Myou
2010-03-07, 05:18 AM
FATAL would like to have a word with you. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FATAL)

I was being sarcastic. XD

magic9mushroom
2010-03-07, 05:19 AM
So, would the Wiz 5 / UM 10 works for a phraerim?

See my edit above. It works, but is fairly pointless.

Other options for useful classes include ToB to beef you up a tad.


So, in Toril, Kobolds are Gods!

Also, thanks for the other answer.

No. The ability is only possessed by Sarrukhs. Getting one of those under your control is a hassle. It can be done reasonably easily with a Druid 14. There is a way to pull it off at level 1, but it's extremely cheesy and involves wishing for more wishes.

sonofzeal
2010-03-07, 05:36 AM
At the risk of derailing the thread any farther....


Pun-Pun is a sort of thought experiment in the rules. See this dude over on the Wizards board back in '05, went by Khan_the_Destroyer, he noticed that one monster in the "Serpent Kingdoms" book, had this crazy-powerful ability "Manipulate Form", which could grant other abilities with almost not limitations. Now, getting that in player hands was a hassle, but he figured out a way that initially involved being a level 16 Kobold Druid, but was eventually tightened to level 5 and, at long last, to level 1.

Now that "Manipulate Form" was in player hands (specifically, possessed by a hypothetical kobold named Pun-Pun), Khan_the_Destroyer spelled out various different exploits, loops, and combos that would in time grant Pun-Pun nigh-infinite stats in every area, in addition to every ability in the game. He also worked out and perfected a means of gaining divinity, and from there gained an arbitrarily-high Divine Rank, among other things. In time, and with the help of others, he managed to make all those "nigh infinite" and "arbitrarily high" numbers into true infinities.

And thus was Pun-Pun, a level 1 Kobold paladin, firmly enshrined as the undisputed god of 3.5 optimization. He is not the standard by which all other builds are judged, for all other builds are as specks of dust beneath his taloned hands. His whims are inscrutable, and none may tempt his displeasure, or declare in their hubris that they are the "best" at anything, for there is always one better, and His Name Is Pun-Pun.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-07, 05:38 AM
At the risk of derailing the thread any farther....


Pun-Pun is a sort of thought experiment in the rules. See this dude over on the Wizards board back in '05, went by Khan_the_Destroyer, he noticed that one monster in the "Serpent Kingdoms" book, had this crazy-powerful ability "Manipulate Form", which could grant other abilities with almost not limitations. Now, getting that in player hands was a hassle, but he figured out a way that initially involved being a level 16 Kobold Druid, but was eventually tightened to level 5 and, at long last, to level 1.

Now that "Manipulate Form" was in player hands (specifically, possessed by a hypothetical kobold named Pun-Pun), Khan_the_Destroyer spelled out various different exploits, loops, and combos that would in time grant Pun-Pun nigh-infinite stats in every area, in addition to every ability in the game. He also worked out and perfected a means of gaining divinity, and from there gained an arbitrarily-high Divine Rank, among other things. In time, and with the help of others, he managed to make all those "nigh infinite" and "arbitrarily high" numbers into true infinities.

And thus was Pun-Pun, a level 1 Kobold paladin, firmly enshrined as the undisputed god of 3.5 optimization. He is not the standard by which all other builds are judged, for all other builds are as specks of dust beneath his taloned hands. His whims are inscrutable, and none may tempt his displeasure, or declare in their hubris that they are the "best" at anything, for there is always one better, and His Name Is Pun-Pun.

Pun-Pun doesn't actually have to be a Kobold, any Paladin can Wish to be transformed into a Scaled One of Toril.

sonofzeal
2010-03-07, 05:46 AM
Pun-Pun doesn't actually have to be a Kobold, any Paladin can Wish to be transformed into a Scaled One of Toril.
I do believe it doesn't "have" to be a Paladin either. I believe a Human Commoner could technically get the ball rolling at this point. However, being a Paladin makes getting the Pazuzu-chain rolling a bit easier, and you'll have to gain scaledom at some point so starting off as a Kobold gives you a head start.

Also, tradition. Pun-Pun is a kobold, even if it's not strictly necessary.

Petrocorus
2010-03-07, 08:00 AM
To come back on topic. What do you think of ogre-mage?

Heliomance
2010-03-07, 08:45 AM
Shaedlings from the MM5. 4HD 3LA Fey, but they have this ability:

Shadow Gossamer (Ex): As a swift action, a Shaedling can create a 15 pound or lighter item out of shadow gossamer, and it usually crafts a weapon just before attacking. A Shaedling is proficient with any weapon it creates from shadow gossamer, and such weapons have a range increment 10 feet longer than usual. Shields constructed of this substance have their armor check penalty reduced by 1. Shadow gossamer implements dissipate to nothingness if they leave the hands of a shaedling for more than 1 round.

Don't think this is broken? Note the lack of a monetary limit on what the can create. Also note the lack of a prohibition on creating magic items. I think that may trump your double sorc casting - this things can spin up a Sphere of Annihilation out of whole cloth.

2xMachina
2010-03-07, 09:53 AM
Need to keep on hand though, since it dissipates after 1 round after. But would be good to equip yourself.

Ernir
2010-03-07, 10:08 AM
Need to keep on hand though, since it dissipates after 1 round after. But would be good to equip yourself.

I think that in the case of the Sphere of Annihilation, it disappearing 1 round after you drop it on someone is a definite boon to its usability. :smalltongue:

Less broken - 15 pounds of Black Lotus Extract.

Myou
2010-03-07, 10:52 AM
It doesn't say where you can create the object, and if you don't create it in your hand then it can't leave your hand unles you actually pick it up first.

Unless I misunderstand, by RAW this ability can create a sentient sphere of annihilation on the other side of the planet, or on another plane, that chases down your enemies for you and never vanishes.

Or you could create a 15lb anti-osmium bomb on the material plane while you're hiding in a demiplane away from the explosion.

sreservoir
2010-03-07, 10:54 AM
or you could take cleric levels and create scrolls of miracle and magic items that grant UMD bonuses.

you could also go arcane and make wish scrolls. eh.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-07, 03:42 PM
Shaedlings from the MM5. 4HD 3LA Fey, but they have this ability:

Shadow Gossamer (Ex): As a swift action, a Shaedling can create a 15 pound or lighter item out of shadow gossamer, and it usually crafts a weapon just before attacking. A Shaedling is proficient with any weapon it creates from shadow gossamer, and such weapons have a range increment 10 feet longer than usual. Shields constructed of this substance have their armor check penalty reduced by 1. Shadow gossamer implements dissipate to nothingness if they leave the hands of a shaedling for more than 1 round.

Don't think this is broken? Note the lack of a monetary limit on what the can create. Also note the lack of a prohibition on creating magic items. I think that may trump your double sorc casting - this things can spin up a Sphere of Annihilation out of whole cloth.

It's... eh. Quite powerful, but a Phaerimm gets 4 XP-free Wishes a day 2 levels later.

I also don't think creating a Sphere of Annihilation in your hand (which is where it's implied to form) is a particularly smart idea.

But yes, extremely powerful, since it duplicates a Salient Divine Ability.

Myou
2010-03-07, 04:12 PM
It's... eh. Quite powerful, but a Phaerimm gets 4 XP-free Wishes a day 2 levels later.

I also don't think creating a Sphere of Annihilation in your hand (which is where it's implied to form) is a particularly smart idea.

But yes, extremely powerful, since it duplicates a Salient Divine Ability.

It doesn't say in your hand though. You can create items anywhere at all.

Bibliomancer
2010-03-07, 04:40 PM
It's... eh. Quite powerful, but a Phaerimm gets 4 XP-free Wishes a day 2 levels later.

I also don't think creating a Sphere of Annihilation in your hand (which is where it's implied to form) is a particularly smart idea.

But yes, extremely powerful, since it duplicates a Salient Divine Ability.

True, but the Shaedling could create a Ring of Unlimited Wishes (weight 1/2 lb.), therefore receiving an infinite number of xp-free wishes per day (to a maximum of one per round, probably).

Myou
2010-03-07, 05:05 PM
True, but the Shaedling could create a Ring of Unlimited Wishes (weight 1/2 lb.), therefore receiving an infinite number of xp-free wishes per day (to a maximum of one per round, probably).

It doen't have to follow those rules though. It can create anything weighing less than or equal to 15lbs. It could create custom items that give 100 wishes a second. It could create it's own universe (along as the universe began existence weighing 15lbs or less) if it wanted. And as long as it's creations are never held in it's hand, they never disappear either. This thing is literally as powerful as Pun-Pun, without using any other material. It just starts by giving itself an item that when used, gives it an innate Manipulate Form ability, and from there it's easy. Not that it needs to use Manipulate Form.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-07, 05:34 PM
I kinda vote Nerieds are pretty strong contenders:
3 LA, 3 RHD = ECL 6.
Grants Permanent displacement
Cha bonus as Deflect to AC
1/day Summon Elemental (kinda sucks but eh)
at will air Breathing (so you can breath anywhere)
3/day control currents (Control weather for water)
1/day Control Weather (for anywhere)
1/day Wall of Ice
At will, Drown effect: basically Choking ala Darth Vader Force Choke.
-2 Str, +6 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +6 Cha
Swim speed
Fey Type (good/bad)
Resist Fire/Cold 10

sonofzeal
2010-03-07, 06:34 PM
To come back on topic. What do you think of ogre-mage?
Horribly pathetic for ECL 12. Seriously. Pretty much nothing in the game is worth LA +7, let alone one of the most famously underpowered for its CR.

HCL
2010-03-07, 06:39 PM
Nepharim are a really crazy la +0 that probably have not gotten mentioned due to a couple unique abilities and outsider type. Raptorans also can do some nasty tricks with flying that scales with level, +10 racial on jump checks and no fall damage.

Yukitsu
2010-03-07, 07:25 PM
Shaedlings from the MM5. 4HD 3LA Fey, but they have this ability:

Shadow Gossamer (Ex): As a swift action, a Shaedling can create a 15 pound or lighter item out of shadow gossamer, and it usually crafts a weapon just before attacking. A Shaedling is proficient with any weapon it creates from shadow gossamer, and such weapons have a range increment 10 feet longer than usual. Shields constructed of this substance have their armor check penalty reduced by 1. Shadow gossamer implements dissipate to nothingness if they leave the hands of a shaedling for more than 1 round.

Don't think this is broken? Note the lack of a monetary limit on what the can create. Also note the lack of a prohibition on creating magic items. I think that may trump your double sorc casting - this things can spin up a Sphere of Annihilation out of whole cloth.

I'd argue that something is only ever broken if any sane DM in existance would let anyone ever use it at some point in time with that interpretation. Most DMs I know? They'd argue that a lack of "No magic items" means nothing when it doesn't explicitly say it can create any magic item. With that interpretation, it's about as broken as saying death doesn't prevent actions.

Heliomance
2010-03-07, 08:41 PM
Actually, I'd imagine it's quite easy to get your DM to allow magic items. You just have to start with something innocuous, like "can I use it to make some Sovereign Glue?"

Once you've got that through, the precedent is set.

Also, it doesn't need to say it can create magic items explicitly. It can create an item weighing 15 pounds or less. That is literally the only qualifier on it. {magic items weighing 15 pounds or less} is a subset of the set {items weighing 15 pounds or less}, and completely contained within it.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-07, 09:25 PM
I'll note that generally, the magic of an object is not innate to that object's form; it'd be reasonably valid to say that when it used Shadow Gossamer to attempt to duplicate a Ring of Three Wishes, it would get a ring that looked like a Ring of Three Wishes but was not in fact such. Especially since the ability is (Ex).

That said, if you allow it to mean "any item with any amount of magic including stuff specifically not duplicatable by mortals" then yes, you have Pun-Pun in a can.

faceroll
2010-03-07, 09:54 PM
It doesn't say where you can create the object, and if you don't create it in your hand then it can't leave your hand unles you actually pick it up first.

Unless I misunderstand, by RAW this ability can create a sentient sphere of annihilation on the other side of the planet, or on another plane, that chases down your enemies for you and never vanishes.

Or you could create a 15lb anti-osmium bomb on the material plane while you're hiding in a demiplane away from the explosion.

I don't think the rules work like that.


It doesn't say in your hand though. You can create items anywhere at all.

The problem with that is that the rules also don't say that you can create the item wherever you wish.

The crafting rules also don't state where the item you create is crafted, and 0 gp items, like quarterstaffs, require no materials and no time to build, so by your reasoning, a commoner could conjure an entire universe out of quarterstaffs as a free action.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-07, 09:59 PM
and 0 gp items, like quarterstaffs, require no materials and no time to build, so by your reasoning, a commoner could conjure an entire universe out of quarterstaffs as a free action.

RAW states that as a fact. No leeway.

faceroll
2010-03-07, 10:03 PM
RAW states that as a fact. No leeway.

Quote the relevant Ex ability of commoners that allows them to craft an arbitrary number of quarter staffs 10 million miles away, please. You can show me where it is free to make quarter staffs, how it takes 0 days, and that it doesn't specify where the quarter staff appears after crafting, but that's it.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-03-07, 11:07 PM
Just thought I'd let our lurkers know that there is A LOT OF MISINFORMATION on this thread. Its not worth my time to list it all, but some of the BGers even took the bate. Basically the LA+0 races are the strong ones, barring the shaedlings' suspiciously lack of restrictions.

Lastly sorry to rain on the parade but Phaerims don't work like that. I have had to remind people about how phaerims aren't broken for quite a while. If anyone bothered to read the text and provide quotes to this stuff, the thread would be useful.

Apropos
2010-03-07, 11:11 PM
Humans. I'd pick a bonus feat over an ability bonus any day.

Petrocorus
2010-03-08, 01:11 AM
I've just found the Half-Vampire template from the Liber Mortis.
LA 2.
What do you think of it?

Mushroom Ninja
2010-03-08, 01:49 AM
I've just found the Half-Vampire template from the Liber Mortis.
LA 2.
What do you think of it?

Meh. 2 LA is no small investment. I'm not sure Half-Vampire is worth it.

Myou
2010-03-08, 02:13 AM
I don't think the rules work like that.

The problem with that is that the rules also don't say that you can create the item wherever you wish.

The crafting rules also don't state where the item you create is crafted, and 0 gp items, like quarterstaffs, require no materials and no time to build, so by your reasoning, a commoner could conjure an entire universe out of quarterstaffs as a free action.

Well, by RAW they could. :smallconfused:

It doen't say you can't make magic items, or where items appear, it gives no limitation on either. By the rules as written, this ability it literally infinite in power.

Eldan
2010-03-08, 03:27 AM
Hmm. They really should have written "mass", when there's such things as low-gravity planes, then. Hello Astral plane.

faceroll
2010-03-08, 03:37 AM
Well, by RAW they could. :smallconfused:

It doen't say you can't make magic items, or where items appear, it gives no limitation on either. By the rules as written, this ability it literally infinite in power.

The rules also don't give any limitations on how often my monk can use his 9,000d9,000 breath weapon in a round. Heck, it doesn't even have any limitations on me getting that breath weapon! Pretty sweet!


The wording could stand to be clearer, but it seems that a level 18 phaerimm hatchling barbarian would be able to cast level 1 sorcerer spells, with a CL of 18--ie, grease lasting 18 rounds, etc *shrug*.

edit: The '...cast as a SLA...' bit is definitely all kinds of brokenly cool, though anything that cast "as an Xth level X" as part of it's racial hit dice, aside from stacking with class levels, can use that magic without any material components. That being said, 'favorable sacrifice,' pg 89 of the SC, bears a quick reading :P

Mmm, true, doesn't get a barb 9th level spells. Read the second paragraph though. Great for the sorcerer class, since they do stack for spells known, spells per day, and so on.

Myou
2010-03-08, 05:31 AM
The rules also don't give any limitations on how often my monk can use his 9,000d9,000 breath weapon in a round. Heck, it doesn't even have any limitations on me getting that breath weapon! Pretty sweet!

Er, yeah, by the rules the monk doesn't get one. This is an already existing ability and it has clearly defined limits. The problem is that they forgot to add important limitations. It doesn't say that it can't make magic items, it says it can make anything that weights less than or equal to 15lbs. If monks had a breath weapon doing 9000d9000 and it was a free action, and they then forgot to say you could only do it once per round, then yes, then there would be no limit on it. This is basic logic, obviously in any real game these abuses won't fly, but that's the point of theoretical optimisation - Pun-Pun isn't going to be allowed either you know.

And Shalist, I was thinking about the mass =/= weight thing myself, as long as you're away from any gravity wells you can make whatever the heck you want. Of course, if you then move such objects into gravity wells they probably remain - they were created weighing nothing, and it doesn't say they vanish if gravity changes, although that point you could argue I think. But it's a moot point anyway - the first thing you create is a consumable item that gives the ability to use this ability without the written limit of weight. And without requiring a swift action.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-08, 06:49 AM
re: Phaerimms.

The "hatchling casts as a first level sorcerer" is flavour text, and is overridden by the description of the ability (it doesn't specify any of the age categories between the two).

The description of the ability does refer to caster level, as does the table. Caster level, without bonuses, is equal to your effective levels in the spellcasting class. Also, the other interpretation results in Juvenile, Young Adult, Adult, and Elder Phaerimms having a caster level but no spells per day or spells known.

The only viable interpretation is the broken one.

Contrast Sylphs where it explicitly spells out their spells per day and spells known, so only the caster level scales.

hamishspence
2010-03-08, 07:36 AM
the PGtF web enhancement has an un-broken Phaerimm- Caster level = Racial Hit Dice. (any sorcerer levels- and only sorcerer levels- stack)

I figure the Lost Empires one was written very poorly. Maybe they should have written an errata to say it should be treated the other way?

magic9mushroom
2010-03-08, 07:40 AM
the PGtF web enhancement has an un-broken Phaerimm- Caster level = Racial Hit Dice. (any sorcerer levels- and only sorcerer levels- stack)

I figure the Lost Empires one was written very poorly. Maybe they should have written an errata to say it should be treated the other way?

They probably should have. Unfortunately, it overrides.

hewhosaysfish
2010-03-08, 07:57 AM
RAW states that as a fact. No leeway.

Incorrect. It requires raw materials worth 0gp. This is not the same thing as no materials.

RAW doesn't specify precisely what materials, though, so if you want to make a quarterstaff out of dead leaves, fly poop, gnomes or something else completely worthless then, by RAW, I can't argue with you.

With a sufficiently broad definition of "materials" (and a suitably cynical definition of "worthless") then you can even make a quarterstaff out of love.

But not out of nothing.


Hmm. They really should have written "mass", when there's such things as low-gravity planes, then. Hello Astral plane.

I though pounds were a measurement of mass? The shadeling text makes no mention of neither mass nor weight, merely poundage (and thus implicitly to mass).
And just in case anyone jumps in with spell from somewhere else that does indeed refer to objects, creatures and or substances weighing less than some certain number, I'm going to go ahead and guess that that number is also listed as a number of pounds.

So is 10N more or less than 23kg?

Heliomance
2010-03-08, 08:00 AM
Nope, pounds are a measure of force, and hence weight. Kilograms measure mass, pounds actually measure weight. Odd, I know.

Beelzebub1111
2010-03-08, 08:16 AM
I heard there's a race (Black Ethergaut?) that is something like LA 18 but +20 Int and cast spells as a 19th level wizard. (I'm sure I'm off a bit on the numbers, but I think the relative amounts are something like that.) Pretty sure it's MMIII-V, as those are the ones my DM had but I did not.

It's only playable at near epic levels, and class abilities might be better than +20 Int, but that's a really high DC on your save-or-dies.
It's in the fiend folio, 2 str, +8 dex, +4 con, +20 Int, +4 wis, +4 cha, 16 abberation HD +4 LA, wizard level 17, has blindsight 40ft, Dominate Monster 3/day, a gaze attack (which can be turned off) for 1d4 int wis and cha damage, AND immunity to spells 6th level and lower.

Coplantor
2010-03-08, 08:20 AM
it's got 17 levels of wizard or casts like a 17 level wizard?

Petrocorus
2010-03-08, 08:20 AM
Nope, pounds are a measure of force, and hence weight. Kilograms measure mass, pounds actually measure weight. Odd, I know.

Well, strictly speaking, pounds is not a standard unit, so cannot we use it for mass?



So is 10N more or less than 23kg?

No. 10 (9.81 actually) N are the force of weight applied by the Earth on a mass of 1 kg = 2.2 lbs.

Beelzebub1111
2010-03-08, 08:27 AM
it's got 17 levels of wizard or casts like a 17 level wizard?

Similar to the rakshasa's sorcerer ability, It casts like a 17th level wizard and any wizard levels gained stack.

Heliomance
2010-03-08, 08:34 AM
Well, strictly speaking, pounds is not a standard unit, so cannot we use it for mass?


Nope, you might as well try to use miles for mass. It's quite easy to see that pounds measure force - the imperial measurement for pressure is pounds per square inch, and pressure is force per unit area.

Coplantor
2010-03-08, 08:49 AM
Similar to the rakshasa's sorcerer ability, It casts like a 17th level wizard and any wizard levels gained stack.

Then it's not that bad of a race, ECL 20, cast like 17 lvl wizard with a freaking +20 to int, sure, you are three levels behind but you have access to 9th level spells, and that int score surely will give you bonus spells, plus, those DC's are craAzy. LA buyoff considers RHD? because the 12th RHD would eliminate 1 point of LA.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-08, 09:12 AM
Then it's not that bad of a race, ECL 20, cast like 17 lvl wizard with a freaking +20 to int, sure, you are three levels behind but you have access to 9th level spells, and that int score surely will give you bonus spells, plus, those DC's are craAzy. LA buyoff considers RHD? because the 12th RHD would eliminate 1 point of LA.

LA buyoff is class levels only.

Myou
2010-03-08, 09:14 AM
Nope, pounds are a measure of force, and hence weight. Kilograms measure mass, pounds actually measure weight. Odd, I know.

Yeah, pounds are a measure of the downward force that a mass exerts on objects around it, when in Earth's gravity and on or near Earth's surface.

Irbis
2010-03-08, 11:02 AM
Or you could create a 15lb anti-osmium bomb on the material plane while you're hiding in a demiplane away from the explosion.

Why anti-osmium? :smallconfused:

sofawall
2010-03-08, 11:06 AM
Why anti-osmium? :smallconfused:

The antimatter equivalent of osmium, an extremely dense material.

Irbis
2010-03-08, 11:18 AM
Yes, yes, but... Why osmium? It doesn't feel D&D at all. Why not lead, gold or platinum? If you need something dense, meitnerium or hassium would be even better.

Myou
2010-03-08, 11:20 AM
Why anti-osmium? :smallconfused:

It's a reference to the Create Matter Bomb, a trick that doesn't actually work but was based on creatig antimatter to make a bomb.

Great avatar by the way. :smallsmile:

Heliomance
2010-03-08, 01:51 PM
As this one is restricted by weight not volume, the density of the material is irrelevant.

Myou
2010-03-08, 02:48 PM
As this one is restricted by weight not volume, the density of the material is irrelevant.

Yeah, until you create matter in zero-gravity. In any case as I say it was a joke, there are more broken things you can do.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-08, 09:55 PM
Yes, yes, but... Why osmium? It doesn't feel D&D at all. Why not lead, gold or platinum? If you need something dense, meitnerium or hassium would be even better.

Osmium is the densest known element. Neutronium would actually be better.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-08, 10:05 PM
Incorrect. It requires raw materials worth 0gp. This is not the same thing as no materials.

RAW doesn't specify precisely what materials, though, so if you want to make a quarterstaff out of dead leaves, fly poop, gnomes or something else completely worthless then, by RAW, I can't argue with you.

With a sufficiently broad definition of "materials" (and a suitably cynical definition of "worthless") then you can even make a quarterstaff out of love.

But not out of nothing.


Is it cynical to make a quarterstaff out of respect?