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Blazen
2010-03-05, 05:44 PM
We got Minotaurs and Shardminds added in, with the new divine class being the Runepriest. I will post new info, and answer questions when able. However I will be at work, so answers will be slow.

Yakk
2010-03-05, 06:50 PM
Question: How does multiclass stonefist monk work?

Blazen
2010-03-05, 07:03 PM
You get the flurry of blows only, not the Mental Bastion, and you can only use the flurry of blows with monk powers.

EDIT: sorry that is the hybrid. The multi-class is that you pick one of the flurry of blows, and get to use it once per encounter.

DiscipleofBob
2010-03-05, 07:34 PM
I've been waiting forever to hear about the Runepriest. What role is it? What are its defining features? What are its primary attributes?

Asbestos
2010-03-05, 07:36 PM
Explain this Shardmind thing?

Reynard
2010-03-05, 07:37 PM
Runepreist sounds like a Leader, and possibly a secondary Controller or Defender. Nothing else really fits in my mind.

Blazen
2010-03-05, 07:43 PM
The Runepriest is a frontline leader who uses Str, Con, and Wis. He doesn't hit hard, and only starts with simple weapons, but the bonuses that he gives allies kinda push him into a secondary defender role.

Shardminds are living crystals created of fragments from the living gate. They count as immortals and gain psychic based abilities (telepathy, resist 5 psychic). They are crystals that form a humanoid shape, but don't have a true gender, or reproduce. When one dies, a new one is made. They get +2 Int, and then either +2 Wis, or Cha.

Mando Knight
2010-03-05, 07:44 PM
Explain this Shardmind thing?
If I remember correctly from previous spoiler threads...

Shardminds are essentially crystal-men from the heavens (immortal living constructs). Well suited for psionics, and get one fixed attribute and one variable attribute, like the rest of the PHB3 races (yes, this includes Minotaur, who's been updated again to have Strength and Con or Wis).

Asbestos
2010-03-05, 07:56 PM
If I remember correctly from previous spoiler threads...

Shardminds are essentially crystal-men from the heavens (immortal living constructs). Well suited for psionics, and get one fixed attribute and one variable attribute, like the rest of the PHB3 races (yes, this includes Minotaur, who's been updated again to have Strength and Con or Wis).

Whaaaat? What about the Gith then? Or the Wilden?

Edit: In terms of stats that is.

DementedFellow
2010-03-05, 08:08 PM
Just how many PHBs are they planning on releasing? Hasn't it been what 2 years or so since they started 4e?

Grynning
2010-03-05, 08:12 PM
Just how many PHBs are they planning on releasing? Hasn't it been what 2 years or so since they started 4e?

It's always been their plan to do a PHB, a DMG, and a setting book every year since release. Don't know how long they plan to keep that up.

So all of the races have a variable stat, hmmm? I suppose that's not really power creep, but it does kinda make it seem like the PHB 1 races got shafted. I know there are a lot of Eladrin who'd like to put that +2 to Dex somewhere else, for instance.

Blazen
2010-03-05, 08:14 PM
Gith get +2 Wis, and +2 Dex/Int, Initiative bonus, bonus to daze, stun, and dom saves. They get an II encounter power that boosts all defenses by 2, and can shift 3 when they second wind.

Wilden get +2 Wis, and +2 Con/Dex, Low-Light, +1 to either Fort, Ref, or Will. After an extended rest they can choose one of 3 encounter powers which are full of awesome.

Mercenary Pen
2010-03-05, 08:14 PM
Just how many PHBs are they planning on releasing? Hasn't it been what 2 years or so since they started 4e?

As many as they have halfway decent ideas for. 3.5 was big, so there's a whole lot of ground to cover to simulate the same creature and class ideas.

Goonthegoof
2010-03-05, 08:14 PM
One a year.

oxybe
2010-03-05, 08:16 PM
one phb per year, containing new classes, feats, paragon paths, ect...

then again, outside of setting books which have their one class each (swordmage for FR & artificier for eberron), all new classes are contained in the yearly PHBs, whereas in 3.5 you had several classes strewn about many different books (complete warrior, divine, arcane, adventurer, miniature handbook, heroes of horror, ect...).

the new PHBs also contain updates to some rules; PHB2 had the stealth skill rule update in there.

also note that those extra PHBs aren't required to play. just like those various complete X in 3rd ed weren't, but if you wanted the class, you had to buy the book.

Blazen
2010-03-05, 08:36 PM
My god, I can't wait to make a Minotaur Runepriest. The at-wills, and rune features give out Resists, and vulnerabilities. I can see the Runepriests becoming quick favorites.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-03-05, 10:26 PM
So all of the races have a variable stat, hmmm? I suppose that's not really power creep, but it does kinda make it seem like the PHB 1 races got shafted. I know there are a lot of Eladrin who'd like to put that +2 to Dex somewhere else, for instance.
Word on the street is they may decide to "Errata" the PHB1 races to do just that.

Of course, Eladrin did end up with some fairly awesome Racial Powers in exchange for their unfavorable Stat Boosts. So who knows?

Blazen
2010-03-05, 11:15 PM
Only the Wilden get low-light vision for the new races, and Eladrin still get some awesome stuff, like a free skill from the entire skill list, and Fey step is still an awesome power.

Artanis
2010-03-06, 02:26 AM
Stat boosts aren't all there is to a race. They're a big deal, yes, but they aren't the be-all, end-all that must perfectly align for a race to be worthwhile.

Grynning
2010-03-06, 02:48 AM
Stat boosts aren't all there is to a race. They're a big deal, yes, but they aren't the be-all, end-all that must perfectly align for a race to be worthwhile.

I wasn't saying that they were, by any means, hence my qualifier "not really power creep." I love the way Elves, Eladrin, Half-Elves, Halflings and Dwarves turned out in PHB1...Dragonborn I could live without, but that's another story. I was just observing that having a floating +2 bonus for one stat for all the races would have been a nice feature to have included from the beginning and would make a lot of sense. Errata'ing that in like OH mentioned would be welcome.

Edit: Oh, and giving Tieflings the ability to switch one of their stats for Con would finally make them good Infernal Warlocks like all the fluff suggests, instead of Fey pact generally being their better mechanical choice, which I always found odd.

Blazen
2010-03-06, 09:10 AM
I still find it hilarious that Half-elves are the better infernlocks.

Artanis
2010-03-06, 12:33 PM
I wasn't saying that they were, by any means, hence my qualifier "not really power creep." I love the way Elves, Eladrin, Half-Elves, Halflings and Dwarves turned out in PHB1...Dragonborn I could live without, but that's another story. I was just observing that having a floating +2 bonus for one stat for all the races would have been a nice feature to have included from the beginning and would make a lot of sense. Errata'ing that in like OH mentioned would be welcome.

Edit: Oh, and giving Tieflings the ability to switch one of their stats for Con would finally make them good Infernal Warlocks like all the fluff suggests, instead of Fey pact generally being their better mechanical choice, which I always found odd.

Yeah, it would've been nice. I don't want to see them "errata" the stats though (with the possible exception of Tieflings, for the reason you mention) because I feel that each race should have a weakness, and stat arrays are one potential source for that weakness.

For instance, look at Humans. They've got by far the most versatile stat bonus, but in exchange, that and some good feat support are about all they get. No awesome racial traits like Dwarves, no good racial power like pretty much everybody, nada. They pay dearly for that versatility. Eladrin, on the other hand, are the opposite: they have one of the weaker stat arrays, but they make up for it in having some REALLY nice racial stuff, with Fey Step being at the top of the list.

So if they go back and give everybody a "floating" stat, they should take away something in return. Take away Elves' mobility, Half-Elves' ability to take three race's feats (as opposed to only their own), that sort of thing.



*Disclaimer: Things often come out differently from how I intend them to, with tone being especially bad at times. So I'd like to note that this is more just to present my point of view than it is to argue, and I'd like to ask that you take what I mean, not what I say :smallsmile:

Lycan 01
2010-03-06, 01:01 PM
Just out of curiousity, what are all the new races and classes in PHB3? :smallconfused:

Grynning
2010-03-06, 02:05 PM
Just out of curiousity, what are all the new races and classes in PHB3? :smallconfused:

I don't have the book yet, but putting together from what I know:
Races: Minotaur (Str/Con or Wis), Wilden (Wis/Con or Dex), Githzerai (Wis/Dex or Int) and Shardmind, described above.

Classes: Runepriest (Divine leader, discussed above), Battlemind (Psi, Defender), Ardent (Psi, Leader), Monk (Psi, Striker), Psion (Psi, Controller), Seeker (Primal, Controller).

Pretty sure there's another class, but I can't think of it for the life of me. I'm also pretty sure we will get a new Primal or Psionic class when Dark Sun comes out.

RedBeardJim
2010-03-06, 02:28 PM
Classes: Runepriest (Divine leader, discussed above), Battlemind (Psi, Defender), Ardent (Psi, Leader), Monk (Psi, Striker), Psion (Psi, Controller), Seeker (Primal, Controller).

Pretty sure there's another class, but I can't think of it for the life of me.

I think there's just six. The skill powers and hybrid rules take up a fair bit of space, as I understand it.

DragonBaneDM
2010-03-06, 02:40 PM
Skill powers?

RedBeardJim
2010-03-06, 02:56 PM
Skill powers?

Utility powers that you can select at the appropriate level in place of class-based utility powers; each one has a prerequisite of being trained in a particular skill. For example, there's a level 2 Arcana power called Arcane Mutterings that allows you to make an Arcana check in place of a Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate check once per encounter.

Asbestos
2010-03-06, 03:09 PM
Utility powers that you can select at the appropriate level in place of class-based utility powers; each one has a prerequisite of being trained in a particular skill. For example, there's a level 2 Arcana power called Arcane Mutterings that allows you to make an Arcana check in place of a Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate check once per encounter.
Some people don't really seem to like these, but I think they add a nice bit of versatility to certain builds and reward those that want to get more out of their skills. Good for skill monkeys.

Mattarias, King.
2010-03-06, 03:10 PM
Oh, so they're kinda bringing back skill tricks. :smallconfused: That sounds nifty.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-03-06, 03:39 PM
Some people don't really seem to like these, but I think they add a nice bit of versatility to certain builds and reward those that want to get more out of their skills. Good for skill monkeys.
I like their concept, but their execution is horrible.

I mean, looking at some of the Arcana Tricks can be painful - how exactly does babbling incoherently give you any sort of advantage? :smallconfused:

I just hope that the PHB3 Skill Tricks are better than the ones from the preview.

DementedFellow
2010-03-06, 03:45 PM
I'm ignorant, but does the stuff contained in PHB 1 become automatically useless with PHB2 like it was almost with 3.5?

Oracle_Hunter
2010-03-06, 03:53 PM
I'm ignorant, but does the stuff contained in PHB 1 become automatically useless with PHB2 like it was almost with 3.5?
Nope.

Each PHB is supposed to "build on" the core system of classes and races. 4e does not plan to have a "4.5" (fortunately) :smallbiggrin:

Swordgleam
2010-03-06, 05:18 PM
I mean, looking at some of the Arcana Tricks can be painful - how exactly does babbling incoherently give you any sort of advantage? :smallconfused:

I'm not totally sure how it would work for Diplomacy, but I can easily see for intimidate or bluff. "You say I don't have an appropriate party invitation? That's a shame. I hope your vision isn't that important to you. *begin muttering arcane phrases while gesturing*"

Oracle_Hunter
2010-03-06, 05:22 PM
I'm not totally sure how it would work for Diplomacy, but I can easily see for intimidate or bluff. "You say I don't have an appropriate party invitation? That's a shame. I hope your vision isn't that important to you. *begin muttering arcane phrases while gesturing*"
Like I said - it can work (though why you'd need to know actual magic phrases to do that, I don't know) but, by and large, the Skill Tricks don't make much sense.

I have great hope for this mechanic, though. Well, unless the OP wants to say more about Skill Tricks, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Swordgleam
2010-03-06, 05:24 PM
I'm assuming you can do it with Bluff without actual magical phrases - but if you have a sucky Cha score, knowing actual magical phrases is a workable substitute for pretending to know them. It doesn't open actions that weren't available to you before, it just means you can play to your strengths more when taking those actions.

Optimystik
2010-03-06, 07:02 PM
I'm ignorant, but does the stuff contained in PHB 1 become automatically useless with PHB2 like it was almost with 3.5?

How do you figure that? The PHB2 contained a lot of useful variants and expansion material, but it was all based on PHB1 stuff.

DementedFellow
2010-03-06, 07:06 PM
How do you figure that? The PHB2 contained a lot of useful variants and expansion material, but it was all based on PHB1 stuff.

It changed minor stuff that a lot of people I know take to mean that PHB2 trumps everything. Fixing harm and what not. It just seems like once 3.5 came out no one wanted to touch anything 3.0.

Grynning
2010-03-06, 08:16 PM
OK, I just got the book. I have to say, I'm tempted to retract my statement that the new races aren't representative of power creep. Shardminds and Wilden are both really, really good, with good stat and skill boosts and great encounter powers to boot. Feat support doesn't look bad either and will probably get boosted in arcane/divine/primal power 2 and psionic power.

New classes are ok all around, nothing's really standing out so far. The monk is still a playable class but the shift from the enchantable unarmed strike to using ki foci seems to have been a messy one. They keep the good unarmed strike weapon attack but have no weapon powers. Very odd little class, though I'd say it's still a definite improvement over the 3.5 monk (not saying much, but hey, take what you can get, kung-fu fantasists).

I'm having a really hard time justifying the existence of the Runepriest. It's really just a Str cleric with a paint-job. Their main gimmick seems to be that all the encounter powers have path-based riders, and the dailies all have a decent automatic effect. Seriously though, this could have just been a cleric alternate class feature set for Divine Power 2.

Edit: Psions are still my favorite. Their powers are just downright cool, exactly what a controller should be. Paragon paths are a bit weird though, particularly their fluff, and none of them really build on telekinesis or telepathy, instead branching the psychic out into other areas.

Gralamin
2010-03-06, 08:17 PM
It changed minor stuff that a lot of people I know take to mean that PHB2 trumps everything. Fixing harm and what not. It just seems like once 3.5 came out no one wanted to touch anything 3.0.

The 3.5 PHB is not PHB2 for 3.0

DementedFellow
2010-03-07, 05:52 AM
The 3.5 PHB is not PHB2 for 3.0

I understand that now.

Blazen
2010-03-07, 08:50 AM
How I see them, the new races may not necessarily be broken (though they likely are). They are far more appealing than the old ones.

Reynard
2010-03-07, 09:44 AM
Do skill tricks do anything that wasn't covered already by page 42?

Kylarra
2010-03-07, 11:14 AM
Do skill tricks do anything that wasn't covered already by page 42?There's a daily heal skill trick that lets someone else spend a healing surge. As a whole, they're markedly unimpressive, due to their generic nature, but hey, options are options.

Gralamin
2010-03-07, 12:08 PM
There's a daily heal skill trick that lets someone else spend a healing surge. As a whole, they're markedly unimpressive, due to their generic nature, but hey, options are options.

Their main use In my Experience (Since Insiders have seen them for a while), is to allow classes without good utilities (such as Rangers) to get something better easily.

AtopTheMountain
2010-03-07, 12:35 PM
Wait, you got the book? I thought it didn't come out until the 16th?

Reynard
2010-03-07, 02:19 PM
There's a daily heal skill trick that lets someone else spend a healing surge. As a whole, they're markedly unimpressive, due to their generic nature, but hey, options are options.
I'll probably still houserule them out, and just go with what page 42 suggests, since that way they don't have to waste feats on pretty worthless things.

oxybe
2010-03-07, 02:36 PM
Wait, you got the book? I thought it didn't come out until the 16th?

i thought that too but my FLGS just got them in on friday... he had a stack of like 7 of them on the counter for sale. i'm hoping to trade in a few M:tG cards for it tomorrow on my day off. the guy gives great deals but he's going to be gone on thursday.

i leafed through it on friday and there are definitely some stuff in there i'd like to try out. the psionic classes look interesting to say the least and the version of DDi i have is bare-bones on hybrid rules, so i'd like to give that a bigger read.

some of the utilities might not seem to fancy, but before we got a bard in our monday group, those Heal based Utilities would have been a godsend.

hamishspence
2010-03-07, 02:37 PM
The 3.5 PHB is not PHB2 for 3.0

The 3.5 PHB2, compared to the 3.5 PHB, is a better parallel- same ruleset, a few new classes.

RedBeardJim
2010-03-07, 06:03 PM
I'll probably still houserule them out, and just go with what page 42 suggests, since that way they don't have to waste feats on pretty worthless things.

They don't cost feats, unless people are specifically taking Skill Training feats to gain access to the power. They're utility powers, available at the same levels as other utility powers, except access to them is based on what skills you're trained in instead of what class you are.

Another example: there's one that requires Acrobatics training that allows you to stand up as a minor action, at-will.

TheEmerged
2010-03-07, 07:39 PM
I'm not totally sure how it would work for Diplomacy, but I can easily see for intimidate or bluff. "You say I don't have an appropriate party invitation? That's a shame. I hope your vision isn't that important to you. *begin muttering arcane phrases while gesturing*"

Or, you can think of it as Charm Person being added as a feat :smallbiggrin:

Tiki Snakes
2010-03-07, 07:58 PM
Personally I view Arcane Mutterings to be, essentially, like the use of sci-fi technobabble, but with more wiggly bits.

You mutter some incomprehensible but authorititive bit of magical gibberish and if you do it right, they just take you at your word.

Blazen
2010-03-07, 08:05 PM
I see it more as you saying whatever, but the magic flows within your words, and causes the person to hear what you want them to hear.

Artanis
2010-03-07, 08:09 PM
"Why no, officer, I didn't steal the stuff from the store! It must've been somebody else!"
"You're full of s***."
"BELIEVE ME."
"On second thought, you make a very compelling argument. You're free to go."

:smalltongue:

RedBeardJim
2010-03-07, 08:11 PM
"Why no, officer, I didn't steal the stuff from the store! It must've been somebody else!"
"You're full of s***."
"BELIEVE ME."
"On second thought, you make a very compelling argument. You're free to go."

:smalltongue:

"These aren't the droids you're looking for."

Edit: although, that would seem more like flavor for a class-based utility power, like Beguiling Tongue for the warlock. Skill training, especially in a knowledge skill like Arcana, is supposed to represent study of the subject -- sounds more like the "baffle them with bullfeathers" approach.

"Look, I got the readings right here. There's grimboggarts in the attic, a whole colony of metatermites in the pantry -- nasty buggers those are! -- and the freenium levels are off the charts. Seriously, you gotta let me in to take care of this, unless you want your boss's next dinner party to feature exploding silverware."

Beleriphon
2010-03-07, 08:44 PM
I like their concept, but their execution is horrible.

I mean, looking at some of the Arcana Tricks can be painful - how exactly does babbling incoherently give you any sort of advantage? :smallconfused:

Its not incoherent babbling so much as arcane BS to trick people into thinking you know what you're talking about by using your deep understanding of the arcane to confuse them.

serok42
2010-03-08, 07:40 AM
Wait, you got the book? I thought it didn't come out until the 16th?

Some of the stores are WOTC premier stores (or whatever they call it). This allows them to sell the books 11 days before the actual release.

The store my group does our RPGA games at was made one because we run so many LFR games (3 to 4 tables every week).

I picked my PHB3 up Friday as well.

Asbestos
2010-03-09, 08:00 PM
I've got it too!

Anyone else notice how awesome Minotaurs are?
They make good: Fighters, Barbarians, Rangers, Warlords, Seekers, Monks, Wardens, Runepriests, Paladins... am I forgetting anything?

Not that I'm complaining, Minos are pretty cool.

The Runepriest really does just feel like a reskinned Cleric, but I don't think this is a bad thing, I think its just a way to retcon the neglected Strength based Cleric build of the PHB1 and make it its own class. It isn't a bad class either.

I think the Seeker is the only new class that doesn't introduce a new mechanic.

Aron Times
2010-03-09, 08:09 PM
Arcane Mutterings = Geass. That should explain it being used for Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate.

Asbestos
2010-03-09, 08:15 PM
Arcane Mutterings = Geass. That should explain it being used for Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate.

Wow, people are really concerned about using Obscure knowledge to convince people of your point of view, to mislead them, or to freak them out. Apparently that can only be explained by magic!

The power is called 'Arcane Mutterings' but the fluff description doesn't make it seem like you're just 'muttering' at all.

Draz74
2010-03-09, 08:15 PM
So, if the book's more or less out, when will the Character Builder get updated? I hope it's before my 1-month subscription runs out!


Anyone else notice how awesome Minotaurs are?
They make good: Fighters, Barbarians, Rangers, Warlords, Seekers, Monks, Wardens, Runepriests, Paladins... am I forgetting anything?

Not that I'm complaining, Minos are pretty cool.

*struggles not to mention how WotC feels the need to compete with WoW* :smallamused:

Asbestos
2010-03-09, 08:19 PM
*struggles not to mention how WotC feels the need to compete with WoW* :smallamused:

Friend, Minotaurs were a major part of Dragonlance long before Blizzard Entertainment even existed. As a side note, I find the art and fluff for 4e minotaurs to be far superior to any form of cow-man since, well, Dragonlance.

Draz74
2010-03-09, 08:29 PM
Friend, Minotaurs were a major part of Dragonlance long before Blizzard Entertainment even existed.

That's fine, you go ahead and believe all you want that PHB3 Minotaurs aren't affected by Taurens in any way, shape, or form. :smallwink:

To nitpick, though: Dragonlance only existed for 7 years before Blizzard did. And (having read the original Chronicles trilogy, where Minotaurs were not prominent) I don't think Minotaurs were a major part of the setting until some of that 7 years had passed.

Faleldir
2010-03-09, 08:57 PM
Question: What do Minotaurs get to replace Oversized?

holywhippet
2010-03-09, 09:09 PM
Given that D&D was basically "borrowing" from pretty much any mythos they could find it's no surprise that minotaurs have been in D&D for so long. Dragonlance was probably the first setting where they were a civilisation rather than just a random encounter. Not sure when they became prominent though, you'd need to check the original Dragonlance setting books.

DeltaEmil
2010-03-09, 09:15 PM
That's fine, you go ahead and believe all you want that PHB3 Minotaurs aren't affected by Taurens in any way, shape, or form. :smallwink:Penny Arcade knows the answer to everything. :smallwink:
http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/215543608_oPsC3-L-2.jpg

Sir Homeslice
2010-03-09, 09:16 PM
That's fine, you go ahead and believe all you want that PHB3 Minotaurs aren't affected by Taurens in any way, shape, or form. :smallwink:

That's fine, you go ahead and believe all you want that WoW invented Minotaurs as a playable race and that 4e is obviously copying WoW as a result.

Asbestos
2010-03-09, 09:43 PM
Rogues are great at DPR in 4e, they clearly copied WoW!

Anyway... I think Shardminds are weird, though the madness that is the Shard Slayer background is some neat fluff. For those that don't have the book, the Shard Slayers are Shardminds that believe that the only way to repair the Living Gate (that thing that keeps out the Far Realm's influence) is to kill all Shardminds so their psionic power can be sent back to the Gate.

Zaq
2010-03-09, 10:16 PM
Is the Seeker as sexy as they look in the Character Builder preview? They look like a lot of fun. I think they should have been Martial, not Primal, though. I've been saying all along that the Martial Controller should just be the Guild Wars ranger who adds poisons and explosives and nasty bits to his arrows and fires all sorts of nasty status effects at foes... and when that happens, it turns out not to be Martial at all, but instead Primal for no adequately defined reason. Oh well. It's WotC. No matter how much changes, martial-types still fundamentally can't have as many nice things as everyone else. Like Controllers.

Anyway, Seekers?

Sir Homeslice
2010-03-09, 10:36 PM
No matter how much changes, martial-types still fundamentally can't have as many nice things as everyone else. Like Controllers.

Obviously you haven't:
a) seen what atrocities the latest errata has done to every implement striker
b) realized that martial characters are hands down the BEST classes in the game.
--i) Striker? Rangers are the best, hands down. Rogues, while not as crazy as Rangers, are still one of the top damage-dealers in the game.
--ii) Leaders? Offensively, Warlords rock so hard at any time, any Warlord character will just spontaneously acquire a mad case of whiplash from the temporal rocking on their future selves will throw down.
--iii) Defenders? Fighters probably do it best, with fancy strings optional.
--iv) Controllers? Who needs them, all martial characters and especially rogues and rangers are great at ripping through minions like demented blenders, and Rogues can be pretty controlly if that's your inclination. And as the joke commonly goes, the best status effect is death.

P.S:

I've been saying all along that the Martial Controller should just be the Guild Wars ranger who adds poisons and explosives and nasty bits to his arrows and fires all sorts of nasty status effects at foes... and when that happens, it turns out not to be Martial at all, but instead Primal for no adequately defined reason.
You have proposed a Martial Controller which is based on the following concept(s):

1. [ ] Trap-Setter
2. [ ] Grenade Tosser
3. [x] Exotic Weapon Master
4. [x] Trick-Shot Master
5. [ ] Grappler / Tripper / Brawler
6. [ ] Melee Multiattacker
7. [ ] Faster-than-Human Movement
8. [ ] Non-Magical Emotional Manipulation
9. [ ] Minion Master

Your idea does not provide a viable replacement for a Wizard as the party's Controller for the following reasons:

1. [ ] Powers require too much set up time to use in a newly entered area.
2. [x] Powers rely on expendable (and potentially expensive) items that can run out.
3. [x] Powers rely on items (or moves) that can be used by anyone in the manner described, even a child.
4. [x] Powers rely on equipment which cannot be used in extremely common adventuring environments.
5. [ ] Powers rely on severe suspension of disbelief about monster / NPC behavior.
6. [x] Concept is a one-trick wonder that does not lend itself to 30 levels of powers.
7. [ ] Concept, in the abstract, belongs better in one of the other three roles.
8. [ ] Concept's specific core mechanics are better associated with another role.
9. [ ] Concept relies on a core mechanic that, fundamentally, is not battlefield control.
10. [ ] Concept does not effectively provide battlefield control against multiple opponents.
11. [x] Concept cannot control enemies before they reach the party.
12. [ ] Concept may be required to put itself in harm's way too much, leading either to quick death or to stepping on the Defender's toes.

Additionally, your concept has the following stylistic issues:

1. [ ] Powers are prone to absurd, game-breaking results.
2. [ ] Powers violate physics and common sense (even at Heroic tier).
3. [x] Powers rely on extremely specific gear and constrain flexibility in equipping the character.
4. [ ] Powers rely on items that are magical in origin, diluting the Martial flavor.
5. [ ] Concept requires a technology level that makes it unsuited for many games.
6. [x] Concept is "gimmicky" in execution and is too specific to offer versatility in PC creation.
7. [ ] Reliance on minions may make the class take up an unfair amount of time at the table by making it a "party of one."

Mando Knight
2010-03-09, 10:46 PM
a) seen what atrocities the latest errata has done to every implement striker

I didn't notice anything that killed implement-based strikers...

Grynning
2010-03-09, 11:01 PM
I didn't notice anything that killed implement-based strikers...

I think he's referring to the nerf of implement expertise. Implement users are much more dependent on multiple sources of hit bonuses, and this hurts them more than melee'ers, who rarely need any to-hit feats besides expertise as it is.

Sir Homeslice
2010-03-09, 11:06 PM
I didn't notice anything that killed implement-based strikers...

Ankhmon's Bracers, the Staff of Ruin nerf.

deathpigeon
2010-03-09, 11:11 PM
Is the Seeker as sexy as they look in the Character Builder preview? They look like a lot of fun. I think they should have been Martial, not Primal, though. I've been saying all along that the Martial Controller should just be the Guild Wars ranger who adds poisons and explosives and nasty bits to his arrows and fires all sorts of nasty status effects at foes... and when that happens, it turns out not to be Martial at all, but instead Primal for no adequately defined reason. Oh well. It's WotC. No matter how much changes, martial-types still fundamentally can't have as many nice things as everyone else. Like Controllers.

Anyway, Seekers?

Why can't martial have a controller? Other martial classes have some very controllery powers like villains menace from the warlord.

Asbestos
2010-03-09, 11:20 PM
Is the Seeker as sexy as they look in the Character Builder preview? They look like a lot of fun. I think they should have been Martial, not Primal, though. I've been saying all along that the Martial Controller should just be the Guild Wars ranger who adds poisons and explosives and nasty bits to his arrows and fires all sorts of nasty status effects at foes... and when that happens, it turns out not to be Martial at all, but instead Primal for no adequately defined reason. Oh well. It's WotC. No matter how much changes, martial-types still fundamentally can't have as many nice things as everyone else. Like Controllers.

Anyway, Seekers?

I like 'em. Its like being a magical Green Arrow, which in a setting where tech isn't very vaunted, is the only reasonable seeming way to get a Green Arrow-type character. Mundane, non-magical tech seems pretty limited in 4e. For example check out traps and you'll notice that at a certain level they are all magical. Gears and oil can only go so far in a world of Wizards, Druids, and fighters that could have been in the Iliad.


Anyone notice the abundance of female character art? And not all of it with boobie-windows and chainmail bikinis? The Mountain Savant (or whatever that monk PP is) actually looks damn tough, a little sexy, and not at all girly-girl. The Psions are sluts though.

Sir Homeslice
2010-03-09, 11:22 PM
Anyone notice the abundance of female character art? And not all of it with boobie-windows and chainmail bikinis? The Mountain Savant (or whatever that monk PP is) actually looks damn tough, a little sexy, and not at all girly-girl. The Psions are sluts though.

I don't, because none of the LGSes near where I love sell the PHB3 despite one of them saying they would. I have to wait until next frigging week.

Asbestos
2010-03-09, 11:23 PM
Why can't martial have a controller? Other martial classes have some very controllery powers like villains menace from the warlord.

The Anti-Martial Controller crowd seems to believe there isn't enough design space for an entire class based on being a martial controller without being gimmicky. If you want to be a martial controller there is a slew of Ranger powers in a Dragon article that effectively turns it into a martial controller. Its all about area attacks and area denial. If you just have the PHB1, then be a Cha-rogue and you can do quite well at moving around enemies and putting status effects on them.


Oh, and for Polearm users... they can now get CA with Reach and can gain the benefit to AC and Reflex of a light shield if they are wielding a polearm/staff in both hands. (Two feats there, not one, don't want to confuse people)

Grynning
2010-03-09, 11:40 PM
Why can't martial have a controller? Other martial classes have some very controllery powers like villains menace from the warlord.

They could make a martial controller, but they probably won't and there's really no reason too. As has been stated above, an all-martial party won't have any control problems (especially with all the power options out now with MP2), and any attempt to create a martial controller class would probably come off as too gimmicky and/or overlap with the flavor of existing classes too much.

Also, they've already printed two martial power books now. I doubt they'll want to throw another class into the mix that will that far behind the other martial classes in feat/path support.

Draz74
2010-03-10, 01:29 AM
Penny Arcade knows the answer to everything. :smallwink:
Heh, yeah, that was a good one.

That's fine, you go ahead and believe all you want that WoW invented Minotaurs as a playable race and that 4e is obviously copying WoW as a result.

I don't believe that, and I never said I did.

I mean, if you really want to get technical about it, I'm pretty sure they're all copying the Theseus myth. :smalltongue:

* * *

Again I must ask: does anyone know when, exactly, this material will show up on DDI?

Sir Homeslice
2010-03-10, 01:45 AM
Again I must ask: does anyone know when, exactly, this material will show up on DDI?

Sometime in April, as far as the content calendar is concerned.

Draz74
2010-03-10, 01:47 AM
Sometime in April, as far as the content calendar is concerned.

Argh. :smallfurious:

Gralamin
2010-03-10, 02:07 AM
Argh. :smallfurious:

First Tuesday of April, So the 5th, if they are being consistent. I'm just waiting for my preordered physical copy to get here when its "Actually out". Crazy companies not sending it to me early.

Zaq
2010-03-10, 02:26 AM
The biggest weakness the Character Builder version of the Seeker presents is a totally crippling overabundance of "Wisdom vs. AC" abilities. Hardly anything (at least up to around level 5, which is where I was looking) hits anything other than AC, and we all know that pigeonholing yourself like that is just asking for trouble. Does the full version get anything worthwhile (preferably at least one at-will) that hits anything that's not AC? Because that's a pretty nasty flaw for a class, really.

Asbestos
2010-03-10, 02:36 AM
The biggest weakness the Character Builder version of the Seeker presents is a totally crippling overabundance of "Wisdom vs. AC" abilities. Hardly anything (at least up to around level 5, which is where I was looking) hits anything other than AC, and we all know that pigeonholing yourself like that is just asking for trouble. Does the full version get anything worthwhile (preferably at least one at-will) that hits anything that's not AC? Because that's a pretty nasty flaw for a class, really.
How is targeting AC flawed? They're a weapon class, does that mean that Rangers are flawed?

Anyway, there's a level 1 encounter that targets will and a level 1 daily that targets reflex.

All at-wills target AC, kind of like Rangers.

And the Spiritbond build gets a +1 to attack rolls with light thrown and heavy thrown weapons.

Zaq
2010-03-10, 02:51 AM
Guess those Martial characters are pretty flawed, eh? You realize they are a weapon class and not an implement class right?

Anyway, there's a level 1 encounter that targets will and a level 1 daily that targets reflex.

All at-wills target AC, kind of like Rangers.

Eh, I don't like the possibility that an enemy with a single awesome stat can shut me down because I can't do anything else. Gotta have a backup plan, you know? Just because you're primarily non-magical doesn't mean you can't hit something other than AC. At least, it shouldn't mean that. Besides, Martials (especially Warlords) sometimes get non-AC attacks (not nearly often enough... I mean, you'd think that they'd get a few bell-ringer or gut-punch moves against Fort, or maybe a trip or shove against Reflex, but those are far less common than I would have expected), but yeah, the fact that they don't get enough of them is a strike against them in my book. It's a real shame, too, because I'm enough of a 3.5 lover to be tickled by Badass Normals finally getting nice things... even if they don't seem to be as nice as everyone else's.

Edit: I guess I should be clearer: Targeting AC is just fine. Targeting ONLY AC is just asking to be made useless. The same goes for the careless Wizard who targets (for example) only Will, or the Druid who targets only Reflex. Enemies have four defenses; you should be able to hit at least two of them, preferably with your at-wills, since they're your bread-and-butter.

I can't speak about Rangers, since I haven't really looked into them. Strikers as a whole tend to bore me, though I admit that Warlocks look fun. I'm new to the system as a whole, though, so I might be surprised when I finally get around to looking at more of them... but just MOAR DICE doesn't really interest me.

Sir Homeslice
2010-03-10, 02:55 AM
your entire post

I've played 4e up and down, and you're vastly overestimating monster AC and underestimating how easily you can trivialize enemy AC/defenses. You're also once again, vastly underestimating Martial characters.

Asbestos
2010-03-10, 03:13 AM
Edit: I guess I should be clearer: Targeting AC is just fine. Targeting ONLY AC is just asking to be made useless. The same goes for the careless Wizard who targets (for example) only Will, or the Druid who targets only Reflex. Enemies have four defenses; you should be able to hit at least two of them, preferably with your at-wills, since they're your bread-and-butter.


For every level of attack power (except at-wills) they have at least one power that targets a non-AC defense (at quick glance)

I agree that mixing in some non-AC powers is a wise decision. But a weapon user having at-wills that only target AC is fine.

Evard
2010-03-10, 09:44 AM
I was hoping to high hell that the monk would be a Martial Controller. I don't like the idea of the monk being psi powered >.<;; But ever since they previewed I've been sad.

Before the monk though a friend of mine homebrewed a martial controller that was basically a wizard but used martial arts. Instead of a spell book they have scrolls etc etc Implements were a gauntlets and quarterstaves :p

Yakk
2010-03-10, 10:07 AM
Ankhmon's Bracers, the Staff of Ruin nerf.
I think you mean "the off-hand staff of ruin nerf".

The staff of ruin is completely unchanged, unless you held it in your offhand.

RebelRogue
2010-03-10, 10:11 AM
I was hoping to high hell that the monk would be a Martial Controller. I don't like the idea of the monk being psi powered >.<;; But ever since they previewed I've been sad.
I'm with you. Actually, in many ways the Druid is similar to what I wanted the Monk to be originally.

Still, I'm excited about the new PHB: If my Warlord bites it anytime soon, I think I want to try out a half-elven battlemind.

Hzurr
2010-03-10, 10:20 AM
The Psions are sluts though.

I choose to take this quote out of context.

Draz74
2010-03-10, 11:34 AM
I was hoping to high hell that the monk would be a Martial Controller. I don't like the idea of the monk being psi powered >.<;; But ever since they previewed I've been sad.

Hmmm, and on my end, long before 4e (or even Tashalatora) existed, I was asking the question, "What, exactly, is the difference between a Monk and a Psychic Warrior, fluff-wise? Seems like they just call things different names, 'ki' vs. 'psionics.'"

Asbestos
2010-03-10, 04:39 PM
One thing that I dislike is the silly halo floating around the head of nearly every single psionic character, monks included.

That's probably not going to exist in my games.


Also, does it matter that one of the Rune Priest builds can use military hammers and maces? Don't most weapon users spend an early feat on a superior weapon anyway?

Hzurr
2010-03-10, 05:27 PM
Also, does it matter that one of the Rune Priest builds can use military hammers and maces? Don't most weapon users spend an early feat on a superior weapon anyway?

That depends. Do you base "most weapon users" off of what you see here on the boards, or "what people play in real life." In optimization circles, taking a superior weapon feat is standard, but from what I've seen in "Real Life (tm)" it isn't used nearly as often.

Doug Lampert
2010-03-10, 05:38 PM
That depends. Do you base "most weapon users" off of what you see here on the boards, or "what people play in real life." In optimization circles, taking a superior weapon feat is standard, but from what I've seen in "Real Life (tm)" it isn't used nearly as often.

I'm running for seven people. The only current exotic weapon user is the Avenger I built myself for one of the players who was new to roleplaying.

One retired character used an (original MM) minotaur + brutal weapon from AV1 + cheeze to get [w]=2d6 brutal 2. But that's long gone now.

No one else bothers. The exotic weapons in PHB1 aren't that good, and most of the players don't own the splats or DDI subscriptions.

Asbestos
2010-03-10, 05:43 PM
That depends. Do you base "most weapon users" off of what you see here on the boards, or "what people play in real life." In optimization circles, taking a superior weapon feat is standard, but from what I've seen in "Real Life (tm)" it isn't used nearly as often.

Touche. Personally I find that there are many more interesting feats out there. I prefer snatching racial feats myself.



I'm assuming this 3rd iteration of Minotaur will supersede the one from Dragon, but I'm wondering about the racial feats. The PHB3 one seems to have a few, but not all, of the Dragon feats. The one that lets you use your gore attack as an OA, without expending it, is missing for instance.

Desmond Tiny
2010-03-10, 07:39 PM
Are there any new epic destinies? I am going to get the book as soon as I can.

Asbestos
2010-03-10, 10:33 PM
Are there any new epic destinies? I am going to get the book as soon as I can.

Yes, each class has an associated Epic Destiny, except for the Psion which will have to be content with 'Godmind' which can be entered by any psionic class.

Immortality is becoming a meme for that one.

Evard
2010-03-10, 10:50 PM
Hmmm, and on my end, long before 4e (or even Tashalatora) existed, I was asking the question, "What, exactly, is the difference between a Monk and a Psychic Warrior, fluff-wise? Seems like they just call things different names, 'ki' vs. 'psionics.'"

Where did they get the idea to make monks using ki/psionic power anyways? In 3.5 I always looked at it to be hitting pressure points and not really projecting any mental power out of their body.... The only place I've seen monks using "ki" is final fantasy tactics.

Asbestos
2010-03-10, 10:53 PM
Where did they get the idea to make monks using ki/psionic power anyways? In 3.5 I always looked at it to be hitting pressure points and not really projecting any mental power out of their body.... The only place I've seen monks using "ki" is final fantasy tactics.
How did you view them teleporting or having feather fall or all that other magical stuff in 3.5?

Evard
2010-03-10, 11:04 PM
the monk didn't get feather fall they got slow fall and needed to be near a wall

the teleportation was dimensional door which could be explained as a burst of speed (think some anime shows where they just move really fast)

Empty body was a bit odd for me though, but this and perfect self can be explained by some sort of divine intervention with their cult/sect that once they attain a higher knowledge they are given these abilities.

All in all they are mainly martial and could make a great martial controller. Jujitsu would make a good controller form to base the martial controller off from.

Tiki Snakes
2010-03-10, 11:05 PM
the monk didn't get feather fall they got slow fall and needed to be near a wall

the teleportation was dimensional door which could be explained as a burst of speed (think some anime shows where they just move really fast)

Empty body was a bit odd for me though, but this and perfect self can be explained by some sort of divine intervention with their cult/sect that once they attain a higher knowledge they are given these abilities.

All in all they are mainly martial and could make a great martial controller. Jujitsu would make a good controller form to base the martial controller off from.

Just as you are doing here, you can still refluff the 4e Monk to be purely martial. Problem solved?

Evard
2010-03-10, 11:18 PM
The problem would be that it's not a controller, I would have to create all new powers (which btw I'm in the process of making a martial controller) or take other controller powers. Refluff wouldn't help as much as a rehaul

Asbestos
2010-03-10, 11:30 PM
the monk didn't get feather fall they got slow fall and needed to be near a wall

Correct, my mistake


the teleportation was dimensional door which could be explained as a burst of speed (think some anime shows where they just move really fast)
Except it is defined as: "Abundant Step (Su)
At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces"



Empty body was a bit odd for me though, but this and perfect self can be explained by some sort of divine intervention with their cult/sect that once they attain a higher knowledge they are given these abilities.
Don't forget Wholeness of Body

Anyway, as Tiki Snakes pointed out this is refluffing.

Its a secondary controller by the way, and not that bad at it.

Centered Breath style lets you slide enemies around.
At-wills:
Crane's Wings (push), Five Storms (AoE)
Encounters:
1, Drunken Monkey: Slide an enemy away and make it attack an ally
3, Eternal Mountain: Knock prone in a burst 1
7, Grasping Tide: Daze OR Strike the Avalanche: launch a target and turn it into a ranged burst 1 knockdown.
Dailies:
1, Masterful Spiral: Large AoE OR Whirling Mantis Step: Move around your enemies and then Slow them (save ends).
5, One Hundred Leaves: Blast 3, push targets 2 squares.
9, Twilight Touch: Blind target

There, I just made a monk in Heroic tier that, while it isn't a Psion (even other controllers aren't Psions), can still be a controller.

Tiki Snakes
2010-03-10, 11:30 PM
The problem would be that it's not a controller, I would have to create all new powers (which btw I'm in the process of making a martial controller) or take other controller powers. Refluff wouldn't help as much as a rehaul

The Previewed build is secondary controller, though, which really is pretty close.

Draz74
2010-03-11, 01:48 AM
Where did they get the idea to make monks using ki/psionic power anyways? In 3.5 I always looked at it to be hitting pressure points and not really projecting any mental power out of their body.... The only place I've seen monks using "ki" is final fantasy tactics.

... you missed the part where they have three abilities called "Ki Strike." :smalltongue:

n00b killa
2010-03-11, 08:52 AM
The best attempt at a martial controller would be something like a Dragonball caracter who shoots blasts of ki. There's quite a lot of design space there (I'm thinking a close attack specialist with some flavorful unnarmed melee strikes). Probably striker would be it's secondary role.

Maybe using robes as implements? (is that even possible??)

That would be something I'd look forward to play.

Faleldir
2010-03-11, 09:43 AM
The best attempt at a martial controller would be something like a Dragonball caracter who shoots blasts of ki.
That's not what "martial" means in D&D.

Evard
2010-03-11, 10:21 AM
... you missed the part where they have three abilities called "Ki Strike." :smalltongue:


As I said the description in 3.5 sounds as if the monk is hitting pressure points on the enemies body more so than having a psionic/ki magic power

Maybe phb4 or the next martial power will have martial controller *sigh*

n00b killa
2010-03-11, 10:36 AM
That's not what "martial" means in D&D.

On D&D Martial means that you have aquired your talents by and extensive elite training and/or innate capacity for combat.

While I do agree that DBZ caracters are more in line with the Psyonic power source, on the DBZ universe they are clearly martial combatants.

The class shouldn't let you handle powers that allow you to destroy planets with a single standard action (seriously, Akira Toriyama, what were you thinking?!), the class should have acces to blast and area attacks fueled by martial prowess.

If this is possible on YOUR campaign world, that's entirely up to you (I don't think it will be possible, or reasonable, on the Forgotten Realms for example. And ironically, it won't be possible on my homebrew campaign setting)

Faleldir
2010-03-11, 10:53 AM
On D&D Martial means that you have aquired your talents by and extensive elite training and/or innate capacity for combat.

Wizards and Sorcerers acquire their their talents by extensive elite training and innate capacity respectively, but that says nothing about the source of their power.
Martial is anything that can be done in real life, only more so. No one can deflect bullets with a sword, but it's just a matter of increasing the speed and precision of existing techniques; a fantasy hero might be able to do that. However, there is NO existing technique that can be exaggerated into shooting a fireball from your hands, not even a tiny one.

n00b killa
2010-03-11, 11:26 AM
There's where the whole "High Fantasy" thing pops up.

Of course there is no way of shooting an energy ball from your bare hands, just as there is no way of surviving complete inmersion on molten lava (something an epic fighter could do without much effort).

The PH sais it right there, experienced martial characters can use powers are outright imposible by normal human (or demi-human, be that as it may) standars.

Martial power is about raising the bar, sometimes a lot.

Faleldir
2010-03-11, 11:34 AM
there is no way of surviving complete inmersion on molten lava
There are ways, or at least a chance, to survive a lot of things. Healing surges are an exaggeration of that.

So you wouldn't see anything wrong about, for example, a martial power that turns an enemy into a frog?

n00b killa
2010-03-11, 11:41 AM
I just can't come up with an explanation of a martialy fueled power that turns someone into a frog.

But if someone can, and that explanation convinces other people, and they all agree to include it on the campaign world, that's awesome for them!

To me it's just a matter of flavour and what things people are comfortable with.

Faleldir
2010-03-11, 11:56 AM
"Ki" is not an explanation, it's a way to avoid the M-word.

n00b killa
2010-03-11, 12:09 PM
"Ki" is not an explanation, it's a way to avoid the M-word.

And I agree with you completely.

Aparently, the guys at WotC also agree, and that's why we have Psyonic monks now.

However, "Ki is not an explanation" on the Forgoten Realms, or Eberror, or Krin or whatever classic D&D setting (with classic D&D cosmology and magic theory). On... I don't know... an Oriental themed world it might make more sense.

Being a DM myself I don't like running games on non-homebrew settings (although I am familiar with several of them), so if one of my players wants to play one such character and presents a decent explanation for it's powers (an balanced rules) I would certainly allow it

Faleldir
2010-03-11, 12:18 PM
But you called it "the best attempt at a martial controller"; it can't be that good if it doesn't fit into any official 4e setting.

n00b killa
2010-03-11, 12:21 PM
But you called it "the best attempt at a martial controller"; it can't be that good if it doesn't fit into any official 4e setting.

That's why they haven't done ANY martial controller.

If the only martial controller someone came up with is Goku, then I think we are better off without any.

Camelot
2010-03-11, 12:44 PM
I've thought of an idea for a martial controller being a Noble or Diplomat, or something of the likes. I'm working on making it, though I'm not making much progress. I started with them dealing psychic damage as they convince their enemies to surrender either with diplomacy or intimidation, but that doesn't really work too much.

As to the PHB3, I can't wait! Monk as psionic works for me, and all the other stuff works too. One of my players is going to make a psion to replace his warlock, and since we have no other controllers, and I'm obsessed with party balance, I am stoked to get the book.

Although it's clearly and undeniably power creep, I wouldn't mind if they added another ability option for the previous races. In fact, it would be a good move because it could give each race its own niche, since there are 120 possibilities for +2 a, +2 b/+2 c combos. Tieflings with Int, Con or Cha would make my day. In fact, any Con/Int race would be cause to cheer. Hmm...I wonder what combinations they'd come up with...

Dragonborn: Cha, Str/Con (to help dragon breath and retain intimidation) or Str, Int/Cha (because of their knowledge of history)
Dwarf: Wis, Str/Con (actually make them good warlords and battle clerics)
Eladrin: Int, Dex/Cha (noble fey makes sense to have Charisma)
Elf: Dex, Str/Wis (this is a stretch, because I really can't see elves as having anything else but Dex/Wis)
Half-Elf: Cha, Con/Wis (I don't know why it wasn't Wis/Cha in the first place)
Halfling: Dex, Wis/Cha (they strike me as knowing just how to be happy in life)
Human: any one (stays the same, I hope)
Tiefling: Int, Con/Cha (like I said)
Deva: Int, Dex/Wis or Int, Con/Wis (give them physical options, though I don't know which makes more sense)
Gnome: Cha, Dex/Int (kind of obvious in my opinion)
Goliath: Con, Str/Wis (they seem very in tune with nature, yet always tough)
Half-Orc: Str, Con/Dex (again, obvious)
Shifter: Str, Con/Wis (for longtooths) or Dex, Con/Wis (for razorclaws)
Drow: Dex, Int/Cha (they're conniving, and it makes them perfect shadowy rogues, as they should be)
Genasi: Int, Str/Con (makes them the masters of all swordmage forms, as they should be)
Changeling: Oh, wait, nevermind.
Kalashtar: Wis, Int/Cha (because they're just completely mental)
Warforged: Str, Con/Int (maybe I'm just thinking of robots, but I think they should have an option for good memory)

Huh, if they think like me there's actually not that many races that always have Wis. Balances with the fact that almost every class uses it, I guess, unless that just makes it even more unbalanced. Still, I like this idea.

Asbestos
2010-03-11, 01:16 PM
Warforged: Con, Str/Dex. Regular Warforged vs the more Scouty kind that was abandoned in 4e. Either one is tougher than a normal critter.

Caen'ir
2010-03-11, 02:43 PM
I haven't read through everything yet, just sorta peeked at the pretty pictures. >_>


Anyone notice the abundance of female character art? And not all of it with boobie-windows and chainmail bikinis? The Mountain Savant (or whatever that monk PP is) actually looks damn tough, a little sexy, and not at all girly-girl. The Psions are sluts though.
I agree, I love the Mountain Devotee. She's powerful-looking, but still quite attractive. Love 'er. :smallbiggrin:

Camelot
2010-03-11, 03:16 PM
Warforged: Con, Str/Dex. Regular Warforged vs the more Scouty kind that was abandoned in 4e. Either one is tougher than a normal critter.No, I don't see those hulking metal men being that dexterous by nature. It seems like more the exception rather than the rule. I think they'd also always have a bonus to Strength, since they were originally made for war. The ones with more metal plating or better inner workings would have a bonus to Constitution, but there could easily be ones made with less protection or who were more fragile. Dex could sneak its way in there, but I think it would make more sense to be Int. They were made from a magic ritual, it would make sense to try and make them smarter than average.

Nai_Calus
2010-03-11, 04:17 PM
WIS makes absolutely no sense at all for Half-elf, the stereotypical Bard race, just as the CHA/WIS bow build for Bards makes no sense at all.

For that matter, CHA doesn't really do it for me, but I really hate the whole 'my entire racial schtick is that people like me and I make people like other people better' thing.

Half-elves I would do as CON set, with a choice of CHA or INT. With INT making sense for half-pointies of Eladrin stock, because it's idiotic that there ISN'T a half-eladrin option officially.

Eladrin with their weird feyness and strangeness I don't see with CHA at all. INT and DEX or CON, because the original fighter/mage should be... Good at being a freaking fighter/mage.

Camelot
2010-03-11, 04:46 PM
I could maybe see eladrin with Con...but they're pretty skinny folk. Their castles in the Feywild don't seem like very harsh conditions. 4e seems to put them more on the lines of nobles than warriors, so Cha makes more sense to my 4e mind.

...if there's a Cha/Wis bard build, and half-elves are the ideal bard, why does Wis not make sense? Cha would have to be a half-elf's static score, not only so they're always good bards, but because that is their entire racial schitck, whether you like it or not. Con never made much sense to me for half-elves, I thought it should have been Wis in the first place. I could see Cha and Con/Int, but not Con and Cha/Int. But Wis fits with their good insight and insight granting ability much better than Int.

Blazen
2010-03-11, 06:25 PM
As some one else mentioned, at this point it is too late to add in a martial controller. I doubt they will release an MP3, and the class would not be able to keep up. Besides that, a properly built Martial character can do control type things. Finally, and I mean no insult to controller players, but I find controllers to be the least needed party members. They aren't useless, I would never say that, and they are still fun. However your party is more likely to survive without one.
EDIT: I wanted to add, that I played my Dwarf Battlemind at RPGA Tuesday, and loved it. Also, after doing so, I can say that the races do not have that high a power creep. Dwarf is still one of the best races around.

holywhippet
2010-03-11, 06:50 PM
Are there any feats that actually require you to have a specific power source? Off the top of my head I only recall feats that are restricted to certain classes.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-03-11, 06:59 PM
Are there any feats that actually require you to have a specific power source? Off the top of my head I only recall feats that are restricted to certain classes.
Yeah, there are a bunch. They usually show up in the X Power books.

Asbestos
2010-03-11, 10:17 PM
Are there any feats that actually require you to have a specific power source? Off the top of my head I only recall feats that are restricted to certain classes.
I think a Dragon article even had feats restricted to class Role. As in you had to be a controller to take them.

Inyssius Tor
2010-03-11, 11:50 PM
Are there any feats that actually require you to have a specific power source? Off the top of my head I only recall feats that are restricted to certain classes.

Yes. There are 144 of them as of now, in fact.

(Not counting the ten role-specific feats currently available.)

Tough_Tonka
2010-03-11, 11:50 PM
I just got the book today and so far my favorite new class is the Psion. At the very least it seems to have the coolest paragon paths. The Dreamwalker and the Uncarnate both have cool fluff and effective looking powers.

What would you guys say is your favorite class/paragon path in this book?

I have to say though, I'm kinda unimpressed by the Shardminds. They just seem like psionic themed devas to me.

Asbestos
2010-03-12, 12:04 AM
I'm torn between Seeker/Rune Priest right now for fave. Mostly because I haven't tried out any psionic classes yet...

Colmarr
2010-03-12, 12:56 AM
the Uncarnate

This PP wins purely on the awesomeness of its name.

Nai_Calus
2010-03-12, 04:39 AM
I could maybe see eladrin with Con...but they're pretty skinny folk. Their castles in the Feywild don't seem like very harsh conditions. 4e seems to put them more on the lines of nobles than warriors, so Cha makes more sense to my 4e mind.

...if there's a Cha/Wis bard build, and half-elves are the ideal bard, why does Wis not make sense? Cha would have to be a half-elf's static score, not only so they're always good bards, but because that is their entire racial schitck, whether you like it or not. Con never made much sense to me for half-elves, I thought it should have been Wis in the first place. I could see Cha and Con/Int, but not Con and Cha/Int. But Wis fits with their good insight and insight granting ability much better than Int.

And as I said, the CHA/WIS Bard build makes no sense at all to me. WIS on a Bard is like a screen door on a submarine. People with high WIS scores don't become Bards, they take up more sensible professions.

CON makes more sense than CHA under the 'adaptable' thing. They can put up with a bunch of crap from being exposed to a bunch of different things. They've toughened up. Or that 'hybrid vigor' thing people like to bandy about whenever someone says 'wtf' to CON on half-elves. CHA is just... Uh... Why again does being a half-breed that people don't always trust make me more likable? And if they're not automatically the best Bards ever, GOOD. I'm sick of that half-elf == bard thing. It annoys me to death and it's a sacred cow that needs to be a nice juicy hamburger already.

The Feywild's feel the way they keep pushing it isn't really 'sitting around in an ivory tower', it's more 'Here's the world turned up to 11. Summer is more summery. Winter is more wintery. Everything is bigger, badder and more likely to kill you. Hope you're tough enough to take it'. And unlike gnomes, the Eladrin's schtick isn't hiding and trying to be likable enough to avoid being squished.

Satyr
2010-03-12, 06:58 AM
There is a strong interrelation between bards and druids, making bards some kind of "druid light", at least fluff-wise. In this context, Wisdom as a core abiltiy is very sensible.

Camelot
2010-03-12, 10:28 AM
Wisdom on a bard may not make sense to you, but it makes sense to a lot of other people, including the beach mages. They put Insight on the Half-Elf, why not give it the Wisdom to go along with it?

Wise bards are like at that third tier of wisdom. First tier people look at the world, see that it's happy, and go about singing and writing beautiful poetry. Second tier people look at the first tier people and see that they're ignoring all the bad things in the world, so they become somber and try to stalwartly defend the good. Third tier people see the second tier people leading miserable lives, and they realize that the way to spread good and defeat evil is actually to be happy and joyous, so they behave like the first tier people but with greater understanding of why.

Just my take on it.

And Charisma is a very adaptable score. Get people to like you, and you won't have to adapt to the harsh wilderness because you'll be able to live in towns. And I don't think people mistrust half-elves as much as they mistrust, say, tieflings. Half-elves (at least in my world) are accepted pretty widely, except by human hating elf tribes or vice versa. In the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, it makes half-elves out to being diplomats who "feel at ease among different cultures and societies," and it goes on to talk about their superb social skills but the only mention of their physical skills is that they have bigger muscles than elves. Eberron has less to say about them, but it specifically says that they combine "human flexibility and ambition with elven wisdom and foresight." So, officially, Charisma and Wisdom make a lot of sense.

I can see how eladrin could have Constitution, if you put it that way. Makes them better swordmages, as they are said to be, from a mechanical viewpoint. Intelligence should be all around though; eladrin education and all.