[Eberron 3.5] So, in apology for the former title. Need gestalt ideas.

[Ryumaru]

Yeah, basic summary again; got an upcoming Eberron game with some slightly iffy rules which I'm not sure on yet (gestalt, but not gestat if using Cleric specifically, or something). While my original idea was Cleric/Wizard (mmm, smell the cheese), looking for some ideas and inspiration for what to play. Current ideas being mulled over are a Swiftblade, or a Wizard/Scout with Swift Hunter.

Looking for a general mix of being capable with weapons (melee and ranged), some powerful abilities and some general usefulness (skills, etc.). Some backstory hooks would be nice too, if anyone has had any fun backstories they've used for their characters previously.

[Beelzebub1111]

Wizard//Cleric isn't that good because of action economy. What you want to pick is a "Main" class with the abilities that you will probably be using and an "Enhancer" class with passive abilities or stats that make up for their weaknesses, for example: Wizard//Fighter for full spell-casting along with full BAB and weapon proficiencies and d10 hit die.

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you want a swiftblade and a wiz// swift hunter why not both?
something like specialist transmuter 5/swiftblade 15// Scout 3/Ranger 17? or that enters into the prohibition?

[Yorrin]

I think Warlock is undervalued as a Melee based Gestalt class, if you want to go that route. Hideous Blow just makes a good melee character (Warblade, for example) into a good melee character with a lot of extra d6s on damage. Stuff like flight/invisibility/teleportation/all the other Warlock goodies don't hurt either.

Conversely, Wizard and/or Psion mixing with a Rogue is a casting focus. The high Int and huge list of class skills makes you the ultimate skill-monkey. And if your DM isn't being a jerk your sneak attack will be usable on your touch spells.

A personal favorite of mine involves monster race- Ogre. Monster races are practically made for Gestalt, and the Ogre makes for a beast of a melee damage dealer. Go Barbarian 20|Ogre 6 (as per Savage Species)/Hulking Hurler 4/War Hulk 10. It gives you ridiculous Str, great rock-throwing abilities, and with a reach weapon War Hulk makes the Ogre like a melee-AOE attack.

[Amphetryon]

Just for fun, consider Hexblade//Warlock. You'll debuff and tank pretty well and never run out of things to do.

[JaronK]

The whole "you can't gestalt with Cleric" thing sounds like the DM doesn't want super powered gestalt combos (like Factotum//Archivist or something). So maybe Factotum//Beguiler or Factotum//Warblade would fit better? Both have some casting, full martial weapons, and a lot of all around utility... but neither has much in the way of world shattering power.

JaronK

[gorfnab]

A Crusader with Thicket of Blades // Warlock with Eldritch Glaive would make for a decent build. It can heal, blast, and tank.
Otherwise since you're in Eberron, a Warforged Warblade // Artificer would make for a great self buffing/repairing tank and with a Wand Sheath (ECS) component you can also blast away with wands of Orb of X or other damaging spells.

[Keld Denar]

I think Warlock is undervalued as a Melee based Gestalt class, if you want to go that route. Hideous Blow just makes a good melee character (Warblade, for example) into a good melee character with a lot of extra d6s on damage. Stuff like flight/invisibility/teleportation/all the other Warlock goodies don't hurt either.

Hideous Blow is just that...Hideous. Use Eldritch Glaive (Dragon Magic) instead. Its everything Hideous Blow should have been and more. Plus, similar to a soulknife, you are never unarmed, but unlike a soulknife, you are actually useful for something other than fertalizing the local flora.

[magic9mushroom]

Hatchling Phaerimm Archivist//Warblade or Mantled Erudite//Warblade.

Both are stupidly overpowered. Tone it down some by using subpar classes if necessary.

[PhoenixRivers]

Barbarian // Druid is fun.

Raging bears is fun, and druids are always powerful. Giving them D12 HD and full BAB doesn't hurt.

Alternately, Paladin // Sorceror is an interesting combination.
Full BAB, d10 HD, strong Fort and Will, Cha based Save bonuses and spell progression, and more definately shore up the weaknesses.

Out of Core?

Necropolitan Sorceror // Evolved Undead.

EU is effectively extra BAB and save DC every level, with more to boot. Warning: This isn't ethical.

[Corey]

If you're low level, mixing artificer with your favorite fighting build leverages Personal Weapon Augmentation. (Specifically, Bane for whatever you need to fight next.)

Also, artificer is synergistic in particular w/ being a Warforged.

Other ideas: Charisma-based caster on one side, Marshal (for the auras) and/or at least two levels of Paladin (for the hit dice and Divine Grace save bonus on the other).

Wizard/Swashbuckler fits well for Insightful Strike, at least in theory, although I never work that out in practice. What I really want to do is 9+ levels of rogue/swashbuckler, with Daring Outlaw, and burglary-enhancing wizard on the other. But I never optimize that build enough to fit into a game. Artificer might also work in place of wizard. Perhaps psion as well.

[magic9mushroom]

Out of Core?

Necropolitan Sorceror // Evolved Undead.

EU is effectively extra BAB and save DC every level, with more to boot. Warning: This isn't ethical.

No, it's not.

Although it's kinda RAW that LA applies to both sides.

[PhoenixRivers]

No, it's not.

Although it's kinda RAW that LA applies to both sides.

And it's kinda RAW that it doesn't (it's done in place of a character level. Characters in gestalt get 2 of those every level). Given the two, and given how badly that LA and RHD are costed, generally, in a Gestalt, having it take up 1 side only is good on power level.

That's the exception.

There's no reason a nymph shouldn't be playable at level 7 in gestalt, though applying LA to both sides would put it at ECL 13 minimum.

[magic9mushroom]

And it's kinda RAW that it doesn't (it's done in place of a character level. Characters in gestalt get 2 of those every level). Given the two, and given how badly that LA and RHD are costed, generally, in a Gestalt, having it take up 1 side only is good on power level.

That's the exception.

There's no reason a nymph shouldn't be playable at level 7 in gestalt, though applying LA to both sides would put it at ECL 13 minimum.

LA is "add LA to your HD to get your ECL". Therefore it bypasses the "both sides" thing.

[PhoenixRivers]

LA is "add LA to your HD to get your ECL". Therefore it bypasses the "both sides" thing.

Class levels do the same thing, IIRC. Should they, as well?

ECL is calculated differently for gestalt.

[magic9mushroom]

Class levels do the same thing, IIRC. Should they, as well?

ECL is calculated differently for gestalt.


In this high-powered campaign variant, characters essentially take two classes at every level, choosing the best aspects of each.

LA is not a class, so you can't take it and another class. You could take monster class levels, though, I guess.

[PhoenixRivers]

LA is not a class, so you can't take it and another class. You could take monster class levels, though, I guess.

LA and RHD are often expressed into monster class levels, IIRC.

Though, by strict reading of gestalt, RHD and LA cannot be used at all. At each level, you select 2 classes. That's it.

Thankfully, most GM's I've seen willing to run gestalt are also willing to allow LA, and allow that a Nymph PC in gestalt and non gestalt have different power levels. Probably for the same reason most DM's rule monks proficient with unarmed strikes.

[magic9mushroom]

LA and RHD are often expressed into monster class levels, IIRC.

Yes, and if such is done then you can use them in gestalt.


Though, by strict reading of gestalt, RHD and LA cannot be used at all. At each level, you select 2 classes. That's it.

Well, no, because Racial Hit Dice and LA aren't levels to start with.


Thankfully, most GM's I've seen willing to run gestalt are also willing to allow LA, and allow that a Nymph PC in gestalt and non gestalt have different power levels. Probably for the same reason most DM's rule monks proficient with unarmed strikes.

I entirely agree.

[term1nally s1ck]

Probably for the same reason most DM's rule monks proficient with unarmed strikes.

They are.

Monk's Unarmed strikes count as natural weapons. Everyone is proficient with their natural weapons.

[Myou]

They are.

Monk's Unarmed strikes count as natural weapons. Everyone is proficient with their natural weapons.

Actually, they're not natural weapons. This is the only reference to natural weapons; "A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. "

Clearly it's saying you can enhance them like a natural weapon, not that they are one.

Unarmed strike is on the weapons table, as a simple weapon. One Monks don't gain proficiency with.

[PhoenixRivers]

I entirely agree.
Then let's leave it be at that, eh? I see no need to indulge argument for argument's sake, when we're both in agreement on pretty much everything of substance.

@Term1nally s1ck: What the guy above me said. They're not natural weapons for all purposes. Only for effects and feats that enhance or improve natural weapons. For other effects, they are simple weapons, that monks do not gain proficiency in. It's laughable, and an obvious oversight, hence why I brought it up as an example of something that's never actually ruled to function that way.

[Ryumaru]

Oh dear. I leave the post for a couple of days, find a bunch of recommendations... and a couple of Monk proficiency debates thrown in there. xD

Really should have put in a bit more detail in the above, admittedly. >.< Would most likely be going for Human, or Elf (probably the voodoo ones), because I love me some emo pretty boys. ;D

Not particularly looking to overpower the game, and it's solo, so I'm trying to get a character to cover a good couple of bases. Cleric/Scout came to mind some, with Divine Metamagic (if I can convince the DM to allow gestalt with Cleric), to have a straight up capable character in a fight straight up, with bonuses to moving around, and jumping around with a bow at the same time, skills -and- healing ability. Or I did have in mind potentially switching out for Psychic Warrior/Scout. I'm trying to find a combo I won't get bored with, and so I can feel like a real mover and shaker, even by canon character standards (I've played three games IRL, and this is online. And in each game, I've played something like a Rogue, only to end up feeling useless about 7 levels in, as everything else goes right by with their fireballs, and save-or-sucks/dies.)

Not very familiar with characters, but do Clerics get any blasting abilities, like fireball? Or AoE capability? As for gear, I'll probably be trying to get a bit lighter armour and a bastard sword/greatsword, and go the BFS anime hero route. So, looking to really remain in my humanoid form and show off with huge, improbable weapons, rather than turning into wolves and throwing Nature's Allies out of my mouth ;D