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Delta
2010-03-06, 06:52 PM
So, I was just now looking through some D&D(3.5) books, thinking about a new character. I really like gishes, but I never really got to actually playing a decent one, so I thought, why not ask around and try to get some help here getting one done.

I've got most books available, but the build shouldn't be using anything too exotic, I have to get GM approval for any none-core stuff. Also, the keyword here is "decent", I don't need an Army of One-type character, just a build that can pull its weight in a party. The character should ideally be playable at low levels, too, so nothing that needs 15 levels to kick ass, please ;)

So I'm really looking for any idea or hint you got, here, doesn't have to be a complete build, just some guidelines as to which base classes, PrCs, Feats, Spells and so on I should be looking out for.

Saph
2010-03-06, 07:03 PM
The classic Sorcadin build is one way to do it. There are lots of varieties, but a simple one is Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5, then your choice of Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom to finish it off.

My personal favourite is the Warblade/Wizard combo; Warblade 2 / Wizard 4, then mix Abjurant Champion and Jade Phoenix Mage to taste for the remaining 14 levels. Stronger than the Sorcadin at low levels, but defences aren't quite as good due to the lack of Divine Grace.

Feats-wise, you'll want Power Attack for damage, Practiced Spellcaster to make up lost caster levels, and Combat Casting as the pre-requisite for Abjurant Champion, which is the best gish PrC out there.

Amphetryon
2010-03-06, 07:03 PM
It's really, really hard not to like Psion (Nomad)/Slayer for a gish, and it only needs the SRD.

If you insist, as is your right, that 'gish' means an arcane caster, not a psionicist, Abjurant Champion, from Complete Mage, is the Gold Standard PrC, at 5 levels long. A decent, non-abusive, option for such a gish might be Duskblade 13/Abjurant Champion 5/Ruathar 2, dependent on normal optimization levels in your group. Duskblade is PH2; Ruathar is RotW. I assure you there will be more powerful suggestions offered.

Nero24200
2010-03-06, 07:05 PM
Although I've yet to seem in play, I've heard good things about the Abjurant Champions. Though it's a Prc so it's not avaliable form level 1. However, quite a few solutions to the "make a good Gish" problem tends to involve Prc, for which this is one of the best for the job.

If, however, you simply want a caster in full-plate or warrior mage a war-focused cleric or druid should fill the role easily.

Mythestopheles
2010-03-06, 07:05 PM
This (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868042/Character_Build_Spotlight:_Gish) may help you out.

Dhavaer
2010-03-06, 07:27 PM
I'm fond of Warblade/Hexblade/Suel Arcanamach/Abjurant Champion with Dragonslayer, Ruathar and/or Jade Phoenix Mage to taste.

Pluto
2010-03-06, 07:53 PM
This (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868042/Character_Build_Spotlight:_Gish) may help you out.

Wow, I'd forgotten about that thread.

It's pretty out of date by now... It doesn't include Complete Mage's fantastic Abjurant Champion class, which is a key part of nearly every gish build nowadays.

It's also missing the PHB2's Duskblade, which is the lazy man's answer to Gish-building.

BenTheJester
2010-03-06, 07:57 PM
Why not just Duskblade? They are a gish-in-a-can(and a pretty good one, being tier 3 and all), which are effective at all levels, unlike the popular paladin/sorc build

many builds work; Dusk20, Dusk 13/Wyrm Wizard 7, Dusk 13/IotSV 7, Dusk 13/Divine Crusader 2/Mystic Theurge 5, Bard 1/Dusk 13/Sublime Chord 6, Dusk 13/Warblade 1/JPM 6, etc

See Here for more info (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=525.0)

(Page 2 has a bunch of awesome builds)

BenTheJester
2010-03-06, 08:01 PM
Wow, I'd forgotten about that thread.

It's pretty out of date by now... It doesn't include Complete Mage's fantastic Abjurant Champion class, which is a key part of nearly every gish build nowadays.

It's also missing the PHB2's Duskblade, which is the lazy man's answer to Gish-building.

Lazy is so pejorative. Duskblades are built as a gish should be. You are not lazy because you don't dip 5 classes and 7 PrCs.

(I know it was most likely not your intention to "diss" duskblades, but I wuuuvvvv them so much)

Keld Denar
2010-03-06, 08:16 PM
The classic Sorcadin build is one way to do it. There are lots of varieties, but a simple one is Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5, then your choice of Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom to finish it off.


No no no! You finish a Sorcadin with Sacred Exorcist. d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, full casting, and Turn Undead to power Divine and Devotion feats. Cause having Law Devotion up every fight is Power Attackalicious!

Ernir
2010-03-06, 10:03 PM
Huh. Nothing new or spectacular, but I was just finishing writing up a character, so...

Bard 7/Crusader 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Sublime Chord 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 2-10.

The standard of 17 BAB/9th level spell(s), with an extra dash of an 8th level Maneuver and a 6th level (Devoted Spirit) stance.

KellKheraptis
2010-03-06, 10:23 PM
There is always the perennial favorite of Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-03-07, 12:29 AM
There is always the perennial favorite of Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5.

I'm going to go for this, too. Swiftblade is found online. A quick Google search should draw it forth from the bowels of WotC's site.

For Jade Pheonix Mage (ToB), my preferred entry is Crusader 1/Wizard 5 (Or 4, if you feel like blowing two feats on Favored and whatever the other one is to meet the skill rank requirements a level early [Cityscape])/Jade Phoenix Mage 9 or 10/Abjurant Champion 4 or 5, although probably not in that order.

Bog standard gish would probably be something like Fighter 1 (tops)/Wizard X (whatever you need to qualify with. Sometimes, just Wizard 1 with Militia and Precious Apprentice with Sanctum Spell will do you)/Eldritch Knight 10/Abjurant 5, with Spellsword 1 and Dragonslayer 1 for flavor.


For something different, you may also want to try using Human Paragon (SRD, Unearthed Arcana) in place of Fighter or Wu Jen in place of Wizard. To this end, I had the silly idea to use Archmage and Giant Size/Transcend Mortality for fun and profit.

Roughly, it was Human Paragon 1/Wu Jen 1/HP +2/Wu Jen +2/Eldritch Knight 2/Abjurant Champion 5/EK +1/Archmage 1 (grabbing SLA Giant Size 2/day)/Eldritch Knight +3/ Archmage +1 (grabbing Transcend Mortality 2/day)/ EK +1. Using Body Outside Body, the literal one-man army would pop 4 selves on turn one. Same turn, the clones would drop both Giant Size and Transcend Mortality, which led to a nice bit of beat down. Admittedly, this trick starts late game, past the point where the Rocket Launcher tag as been in place for ages, so don't worry too much about it.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-07, 12:41 AM
Either psion 10/illithid slayer 10, psychic warrior 10/illithid slayer 10, or psychic warrior 20.

Psi-types can manifest in armor, have a ton of really nice buffs, and best of all have only a small handful of sources to pull from.

If you want a fighting buddy, feel free to get a psicrystal; they make incredible combat partners.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-07, 12:41 AM
Phaerimm Warblade 18 (or 20 with LA buyoff). Can also be a Crusader if you want better stat synergy.

If you're lactose intolerant, then basically what everyone else has been saying. Choice A) is a divine caster, then Jade Phoenix Mage, Abjurant Champion et al are choice B).

arguskos
2010-03-07, 12:54 AM
Phaerimm Warblade 18 (or 20 with LA buyoff). Can also be a Crusader if you want better stat synergy.
Why does EVERY SINGLE build you post make me weep inside? :smalltongue:

magic9mushroom
2010-03-07, 01:05 AM
Why does EVERY SINGLE build you post make me weep inside? :smalltongue:

Because I obsess over complicated and interesting things, and 3.5 optimisation is both.

Hatchling Phaerimm aren't all that good for melee, though, thanks to their -6 strength penalty and Tiny size. Juvenile Phaerimm would probably be better.

arguskos
2010-03-07, 01:09 AM
Because I obsess over complicated and interesting things, and 3.5 optimisation is both.
Yes, but I mean, Ur-Priest, Tainted Scholar, Erudite, Spell-to-Power, PHAERIMM. Next, you're gonna be breaking out the Sharns and Sarruks and we're all going to die horrible, weeping, pitiful deaths, as your monstrosities overrun us all. :smallwink:

Your builds are like killing mosquitos with a bunker buster: enjoyable... but only from a REALLY safe distance, and in a sort of deeply violent and catastrophic manner.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-07, 01:11 AM
Yes, but I mean, Ur-Priest, Tainted Scholar, Erudite, Spell-to-Power, PHAERIMM. Next, you're gonna be breaking out the Sharns and Sarruks and we're all going to die horrible, weeping, pitiful deaths, as your monstrosities overrun us all. :smallwink:

Your builds are like killing mosquitos with a bunker buster: enjoyable... but only from a REALLY safe distance, and in a sort of deeply violent and catastrophic manner.

Rule 37: There is no "Overkill". There is only "Open Fire!" and "I need to reload."

arguskos
2010-03-07, 01:16 AM
Rule 37: There is no "Overkill". There is only "Open Fire!" and "I need to reload."
True, but I like living, thanks. :smalltongue:

Also, yes, being-on-topic now! :smallcool: I've actually seen a creative gish-type character be forged from a Mystic Theurge (Wiz 3/Clr 3/Theurge 10/something else 4). Use your prodigious spell slots to buff and smash, it's not too tough, and there's a LOT of room for optimization, which is nice. Further, at the end of the day: you're still a pair of crazy powerful casters. :smallamused:

Alternatively, you can do Cleric/Bone Knight/Ordained Champion, and be pretty awesome too, just cause, uh, you're a battle cleric.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-07, 01:18 AM
Oh, another point in favour of Phaerimms: They cast their Sorc spells as SLAs, so you don't have to worry about ASF or means of getting rid of it. You can quite happily wear extremely heavy armour (careful of your Dex bonus though).

Oh, and also, 4 hands.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-03-07, 01:20 AM
Because I obsess over complicated and interesting things, and 3.5 optimisation is both.

Hatchling Phaerimm aren't all that good for melee, though, thanks to their -6 strength penalty and Tiny size. Juvenile Phaerimm would probably be better.

Strength penalty is meaningless with Swordsage. Pick up Shadow Blade and key everything off of Dex.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-07, 01:31 AM
Strength penalty is meaningless with Swordsage. Pick up Shadow Blade and key everything off of Dex.

You need Shadow Blade AND Weapon Finesse, right?

There's still the reach problem.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-07, 01:33 AM
You need Shadow Blade AND Weapon Finesse, right?

There's still the reach problem.And Adaptive Style. That's a pretty heavy feat-tax, although once you get polymorph you really won't need two of those three...

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-03-07, 01:39 AM
You need Shadow Blade AND Weapon Finesse, right?

There's still the reach problem.

Spiked Chain is a Shadow Hand weapon...

magic9mushroom
2010-03-07, 01:56 AM
And Adaptive Style. That's a pretty heavy feat-tax, although once you get polymorph you really won't need two of those three...

Why do you need Adaptive Style? Also, Phaerimms are immune to polymorph.


Spiked Chain is a Shadow Hand weapon...

So it is. However, I can't seem to find the rules for Tiny creatures with reach weapons.

Eldariel
2010-03-07, 01:58 AM
So it is. However, I can't seem to find the rules for Tiny creatures with reach weapons.

It doubles your natural reach. 2x0'=0'.

InaVegt
2010-03-07, 02:00 AM
Human bard 1. Take that feat that makes cross-class skills cheaper from races of destiny.
Take 2 levels of swordsage
Take 3 more levels of bard.
Take 1 more level of swordsage
Take 3 more levels of bard.
Take 1 level of sublime chord.
Take 9 levels of Jade Phoenix Mage.

Eighth level spells, eighth level maneuvers, base attack bonus +17 at 20th level. Playable from start to finish.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-07, 02:06 AM
It doubles your natural reach. 2x0'=0'.

Precisely. And all the other methods I know for increasing reach (Deformity (Tall), Inhuman Reach and Extended Reach) don't work for Tiny Aberrations. OTOH, you have ridiculously high Dex, so you're not all that likely to get hit by the AoO (you've also got spells to help with that).

FMArthur
2010-03-07, 02:17 AM
You can also just bend a Cleric into being an arcane caster archetype in all but name with some work with domains, feats and PrCs. It's an option if you want a simpler build but don't want a Duskblade.

Pluto
2010-03-07, 02:24 AM
Lazy is so pejorative. Duskblades are built as a gish should be. You are not lazy because you don't dip 5 classes and 7 PrCs.Man, that's the selling point. I hate trying to fit five class names onto that little line.

You can also just bend a Cleric into being an arcane caster archetype in all but name with some work with domains, feats and PrCs. It's an option if you want a simpler build but don't want a Duskblade.
This works well. I think half my "gishes" have been Clerics with the War and Magic domains.

Delta
2010-03-07, 07:38 AM
First of all, thank you a lot everybody for a ton of great ideas you've given me :) It's gonna take a while for me to look them all up, but this is just what I've been looking for :)


I'm going to go for this, too. Swiftblade is found online. A quick Google search should draw it forth from the bowels of WotC's site.

The Swiftblade looks great, I love it :) Just a question, could a Sorcerer build be a viable Swiftblade gish as well or would I lose out too much compared to the Wizard? I know Wizards are a lot more versatile, but I just like the spontaneous spellcasting, and if possible I'd prefer a Cha-based caster to an Int-based one, but that's not completely necessary, just a personal preference (I like playing the party face).

Amphetryon
2010-03-07, 07:48 AM
The great thing about Wizards is their INT score allows them to be the party face if they feel like it, through Skill selection. :smallsmile:

term1nally s1ck
2010-03-07, 08:00 AM
What level are you playing at? If below say 16-17, sorc would be fine. Above that, I'd worry, cos you won't get 9th level spells.

Ernir
2010-03-07, 08:10 AM
Human bard 1. Take that feat that makes cross-class skills cheaper from races of destiny.
Take 2 levels of swordsage
Take 3 more levels of bard.
Take 1 more level of swordsage
Take 3 more levels of bard.
Take 1 level of sublime chord.
Take 9 levels of Jade Phoenix Mage.

Eighth level spells, eighth level maneuvers, base attack bonus +17 at 20th level. Playable from start to finish.

Drop one level of Swordsage (it doesn't give any cool class feature anyway) in favour of the first level of JPM before you start Sublime Chord, and you can get 9th level spellcasting and the JPM capstone (or Song of Arcane Power, if you prefer that).

Incidentally, it would then be the exact same build as the one I proposed, only with Swordsage instead of Crusader. :smalltongue:

Saph
2010-03-07, 08:20 AM
Drop one level of Swordsage (it doesn't give any cool class feature anyway) in favour of the first level of JPM before you start Sublime Chord, and you can get 9th level spellcasting and the JPM capstone (or Song of Arcane Power, if you prefer that).

Incidentally, it would then be the exact same build as the one I proposed, only with Swordsage instead of Crusader. :smalltongue:

The trouble with Sublime Chord builds is that they're typically very weak in the level 1-10 range, where most games are played. The ToB/Bard build is going to be very slow starting - your bardic music will be weak, your maneuvers will be only average, and you lose several points of BAB.

At low levels, say 1-5, the best gish is probably a simple Duskblade. From level 6 the Wizard/Sorcerer gishes start coming into their own.

KellKheraptis
2010-03-07, 08:22 AM
If you want to go the ToB route, there was once called the King of Combustion, though I'd most likely adapt the Ruathar in it to something else. Something like Wizard 4/Warblade 1/Spellsword 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 5, with the JPM levels coming last to get more higher level maneuvers. The original had 6 levels of Wizard, no Spellsword or AC, and 3 levels of Ruathar. I think the last level was Mindbender. I kinda like that too, and really you could sub Mindbender for Spellsword and only lose 1 BAB (putting you at 17/17 CL, which is still fine).

Forever Curious
2010-03-07, 08:30 AM
Yes, but I mean, Ur-Priest, Tainted Scholar, Erudite, Spell-to-Power, PHAERIMM. Next, you're gonna be breaking out the Sharns and Sarruks and we're all going to die horrible, weeping, pitiful deaths, as your monstrosities overrun us all. :smallwink:

Your builds are like killing mosquitos with a bunker buster: enjoyable... but only from a REALLY safe distance, and in a sort of deeply violent and catastrophic manner.

Sig please?

Vizzerdrix
2010-03-07, 08:48 AM
I remember seeing an interesting Gish that was Duskblade, Suel, War weaver and something else. I think it was Abjurant Champ. It looked rather solid.



Also, has anyone mentioned Mystic ranger and that feat that allows you to prep spells from a wizards book?

Ernir
2010-03-07, 08:56 AM
The trouble with Sublime Chord builds is that they're typically very weak in the level 1-10 range, where most games are played. The ToB/Bard build is going to be very slow starting - your bardic music will be weak, your maneuvers will be only average, and you lose several points of BAB. It is a bit of a bother to get running, indeed... although it's mostly that for the first (in the build I posted, anyway) 7 levels, you're "just" a Bard, and Bards need their share of work and splatbook power to shine.
It's going to start playing very differently once SubChord enters the build, but I don't think it would be exactly weak. Just different.

I'd imagine that the most painful levels are going to be 9-10. Your pure Sor/Wiz buddies just got their 5th level spells, while you are still stuck with 3rds.


At low levels, say 1-5, the best gish is probably a simple Duskblade. From level 6 the Wizard/Sorcerer gishes start coming into their own.
Have to agree here. Multiclassing combos are fancy, but at 1-5, they're not there yet, so you'd only be a Wizard or Sorcerer with a ridiculous feat selection.

Also, has anyone mentioned Mystic ranger and that feat that allows you to prep spells from a wizards book?

Nope, not yet!

Mystic Ranger is a variant from Dragon 336. Sword of the Arcane Order is a feat from Champions of Valor, which allows you to prepare Wizard spells in your Ranger spell slots, and stacks your Wizard and Ranger levels for purposes of calculating CL. Awesome for archer-magic types.

KellKheraptis
2010-03-07, 09:37 AM
Mystic Ranger is awesome at all levels if you use DavidWL's Chameleon trick to get 9's on it and front load all the standard gish feats. Combine with metamagic rods/a means of getting free metamagic and you're a 20/20 gish. Also, I've had several DM's ok the Battle Sorcerer upgrade for Favored Souls, which when combined with FSoB makes you for all intents a dragon. Combine with a means of getting a Sovereign Archetype and the spell-obsessed psychosis and you're hax good, with the two best lists to cast from spontaneously with no limit to spells known, plus full BAB, 3 good saves, and d12 HD. Hell, throw on Wyrm of War and you're a Warblade for free (well in initiating, but that's all that counts).

Volkov
2010-03-07, 09:41 AM
You can also just bend a Cleric into being an arcane caster archetype in all but name with some work with domains, feats and PrCs. It's an option if you want a simpler build but don't want a Duskblade.

That would be monstrously over powered to say the least.

KellKheraptis
2010-03-07, 09:44 AM
That would be monstrously over powered to say the least.

No worse than a CoM, and besides, they're known for being melee monsters anyhow. If you really wanna be an arcane caster as a Cleric, snag Sword of the Arcane Order from PrC Paladin. You've got 5 levels to kill on a CoM anyhow, so it's not like you don't have wiggle room.

2xMachina
2010-03-07, 10:04 AM
Oh, another point in favour of Phaerimms: They cast their Sorc spells as SLAs, so you don't have to worry about ASF or means of getting rid of it. You can quite happily wear extremely heavy armour (careful of your Dex bonus though).

Oh, and also, 4 hands.

Why not Sharn?

9 hands, HAX portal, 15 anything would give it spell casting of 20 sorc, 7 cleric (or any combo thereof) and 15 class levels. (+5La)

KellKheraptis
2010-03-07, 10:08 AM
Another nice one is Changeling Factotum 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 6 (might have messed up the levels, but the idea is roughly the same). Super flexible, easily nabs stuff like Hunter's Eye and can change personae in the blink of an eye.

Thrantar
2010-03-07, 04:02 PM
Personally, I find Binder 3/Paladin 2/Knight of the Sacred Seal 5/??? 10 to be a perfectly solid supernatural melee/alternate casting hybrid. With improved binding, you qualify for KotSS with vestiges of up to third level. Personally, I'm fond of Focalor, but your mileage may vary. Just two books used.

Zaq
2010-03-07, 05:03 PM
Have you considered being primarily a Bard? Melee bard is a very possible archetype (it's easily possible to get your Charisma to your to-hit two or three times over even at early-mid levels... hell, you can get twice your charisma to your to-hit a few times a day at level 1, at least for ranged attacks. Hint: Killoren are awesome.), and while bards don't get nearly as many spells, they have plenty of other tricks to back themselves up as well. Use the standard tricks to boost Inspire Courage to your desired level of awesome, with or without dragonfire inspiration. At high levels, if the rest of your party is optimized, go into Sublime Chord, and if they're not, just stay bard. (Abjurant Champion also works, I suppose.) A bard who builds for it is totally viable in melee and can definitely bring enough magic to the table to be an undeniable magical warrior.

Sure, it's not nearly as optimized as a good Swiftblade or anything like that, but it's different, fun, and party-friendly.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-07, 09:30 PM
Why not Sharn?

9 hands, HAX portal, 15 anything would give it spell casting of 20 sorc, 7 cleric (or any combo thereof) and 15 class levels. (+5La)

They have 4 RHD as well, so you'd only get 11 class levels in. Which means you need to spend ALL your levels on Sorcerer advancement to get 9ths. Which isn't exactly a Gish. *points at thread title*

Delta
2010-03-08, 12:32 PM
I really like the Swiftblade, and Duskblade looks nice, too, I guess I'll have a closer look at those two :) Is there any further information about suitable races, feat selection for those two and so on?

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-08, 12:50 PM
My combo for a +1 LA Eberron Gish:

Race: Quorbred Grey Elf (Fricken +4 or +6 to Int modifier!!)
Class: Duskblade 6/Warblade 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 8/Monk 1/Dragonslayer 1
Feats: Kung-Fu Genius, Arcane Strike, Mind Over Body, Insightful Reflexes, ect.

Add Int to EVERYTHING (and twice to Reflex Saves ;3)

Delta
2010-03-08, 02:29 PM
What book is Kung-Fu genius from? And I'd really like to avoid any +LA races for this character, would only make things complicated.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-08, 02:46 PM
What book is Kung-Fu genius from? And I'd really like to avoid any +LA races for this character, would only make things complicated.

Dragon Magazine Compendium

and if LA scares you, then simply remove Quorbred

TaintedLight
2010-03-08, 06:09 PM
So, I've been tinkering with the sorcadin gish idea since I'd like to use something like it in an upcoming game. It's level 20, but I'd like to know if there's a way to get healing spells and restorations of some kind on the sorcerer spell list or if we're kind of out of luck there. Any suggestions?

Godskook
2010-03-08, 06:20 PM
So, I've been tinkering with the sorcadin gish idea since I'd like to use something like it in an upcoming game. It's level 20, but I'd like to know if there's a way to get healing spells and restorations of some kind on the sorcerer spell list or if we're kind of out of luck there. Any suggestions?

I suggest you buy some healing belts. Why do you want to turn a Sorcadin gish into a medic? He's explicitly not for that. He's made for hitting people hard, either with physical might or arcane knowledge.

Saph
2010-03-08, 06:29 PM
So, I've been tinkering with the sorcadin gish idea since I'd like to use something like it in an upcoming game. It's level 20, but I'd like to know if there's a way to get healing spells and restorations of some kind on the sorcerer spell list or if we're kind of out of luck there. Any suggestions?

Get a runestaff and put a bunch of status-effect-curing spells into it. I drew one up for my sorcerer character and found you could get one that cures most stuff for as little as 13,000 gp. Alternately just get a regular staff with 50 charges of Heal - that should cost about 49,500 gp. Wands of Lesser Vigour will handle the rest.

You'll need a Use Magic Device modifier of at least +19 to use all of these items reliably, but given that you're a 20th-level Cha-based primary caster, that shouldn't be too hard.

TaintedLight
2010-03-08, 06:35 PM
Get a runestaff and put a bunch of status-effect-curing spells into it. I drew one up for my sorcerer character and found you could get one that cures most stuff for as little as 13,000 gp. Alternately just get a regular staff with 50 charges of Heal - that should cost about 49,500 gp. Wands of Lesser Vigour will handle the rest.

You'll need a Use Magic Device modifier of at least +19 to use all of these items reliably, but given that you're a 20th-level Cha-based primary caster, that shouldn't be too hard.

What book are runestaffs from?

Volkov
2010-03-08, 06:38 PM
I suggest you buy some healing belts. Why do you want to turn a Sorcadin gish into a medic? He's explicitly not for that. He's made for hitting people hard, either with physical might or arcane knowledge.

Besides, he doesn't need to do that at all if theres a cleric around. Of course, if there is a cleric around, he could just go clericzilla and do what your build was made to do, but better.

Keld Denar
2010-03-08, 06:57 PM
What book are runestaffs from?

MIC.

As far as the Suel Arcanamach/WarWeaver, I think that was Surreal's Suel Weaver build over on the 339. I know there is a link to it on Dictum Mortum's Suel Arcanamach Handbook that you can look up if you want. It isn't much of a gish though...

Pluto
2010-03-08, 07:09 PM
So, I've been tinkering with the sorcadin gish idea since I'd like to use something like it in an upcoming game. It's level 20, but I'd like to know if there's a way to get healing spells and restorations of some kind on the sorcerer spell list or if we're kind of out of luck there. Any suggestions?Does Arcane Disciple (CDiv) count?

What about Planar Binding?

Keld Denar
2010-03-08, 07:37 PM
Arcane Disciple is still only 1/day from each spell level, and you need the minimum Wis score to cast them still, so you'd need at least a 13 Wisdom to get 9th level spells, assuming you want to drop 36k on a +Wisdom item.

EDIT: It would, however, add the spells to your spell list, allowing you to use Spell Trigger and/or Spell Completion magic items of the relevant spells.

TaintedLight
2010-03-08, 07:39 PM
Does Arcane Disciple (CDiv) count?

What about Planar Binding?

Planar Binding not so much, and Arcane Disciple presents two problems.

1) It's once per day per spell. That's kind of iffy to me, since I may want to be healing folks more than that.

2) The character is getting dangerously MAD at that point, no?

I've been working on it out to 30th level here since I'm still deciding on a concept for a level 30 game (no epic magic), and here's what I have:

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Abjurant Champion 4/Sacred Exorcist 1/Exalted Arcanist 5/Spellsword 2

I know, a nightmare of PrCs, but they let me do the following:

1) With Rainbow Servant in the middle of the progression, I can swap out things I don't really need at higher levels via the sorcerer's spell-swapping as it gains spells known. This lets me get things like Heal, Greater Restoration, Mass Heal, etc.

2) Exalted Arcanist grants me access to some nice sanctified spells like Greater Luminous Armor, which when paired with Abjurant Champion lets me get a really ludicrous AC bonus AND keep my Rainbow Servant Wings. I wanted to counter the STR damage, so that's where the desire for healing magic came from.

There is probably a better way to do this, but right now I can't think of one. Some help simplifying and streamlining this monster please?

Keld Denar
2010-03-08, 08:13 PM
If I was you, I'd focus on getting 16/20 BAB before level 20, as epic BAB doesn't grant extra iteratives. That pretty much bumps Rainbow Servant to the end of the build, unfortunately, but that 4th attack is important.

truemane
2010-03-08, 08:55 PM
Aside from the previously mentioned admonition against non-arcane gishes, I'd like to offer an alternative: Wilder.

Straight-up Core. All your best options are in the SRD. 3/4 BAB, d6 HP, and while your power selection sucks, you get the PP progression of a full Psion and access to 9th level powers.

11 powers doesn't sound like a lot, and it isn't, but a lot of Psionic powers scale with level and so even 1st level powers remain relevant into the highest levels of the game.

PrC into Slayer if you want a little extra HD and BAB bang for your buck. But as it, they're a solid choice.

Pluto
2010-03-08, 09:13 PM
1) It's once per day per spell. That's kind of iffy to me, since I may want to be healing folks more than that.

2) The character is getting dangerously MAD at that point, no?
Healing comes from Wands. For real.

(Also, you could just modify the Sorcerer spell list according to your concept along the lines of the DMG's Witch. Ask the DM.)

TaintedLight
2010-03-08, 09:40 PM
Healing comes from Wands. For real.

(Also, you could just modify the Sorcerer spell list according to your concept along the lines of the DMG's Witch. Ask the DM.)

How does one acquire a wand of a 6th or 9th level spell? To the best of my knowledge, they only go up to 4th level.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-08, 09:42 PM
How does one acquire a wand of a 6th or 9th level spell? To the best of my knowledge, they only go up to 4th level.Cure light wounds and mass lesser vigor.

TaintedLight
2010-03-08, 09:44 PM
Cure light wounds and mass lesser vigor.

Will that really cut it at 30th level?

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-08, 09:59 PM
Will that really cut it at 30th level?By that point, there really should be someone with regeneration or fast healing, and the rest of the group can obtain a vampiric weapon.

Draz74
2010-03-08, 10:00 PM
Precisely. And all the other methods I know for increasing reach (Deformity (Tall), Inhuman Reach and Extended Reach) don't work for Tiny Aberrations. OTOH, you have ridiculously high Dex, so you're not all that likely to get hit by the AoO (you've also got spells to help with that).

And since we're talking about a Warblade, you could just use the Dancing Blade Form stance to give yourself 5-foot reach on your turns. Won't help you make AoOs, though.

2xMachina
2010-03-09, 03:44 AM
They have 4 RHD as well, so you'd only get 11 class levels in. Which means you need to spend ALL your levels on Sorcerer advancement to get 9ths. Which isn't exactly a Gish. *points at thread title*

I must note that they get +1 to Sorc or Cleric per HD.

So, those RHDs? They advance casting.

11 class in melee, cast as 20 Sorc, 7 Clr.

Pluto
2010-03-09, 05:01 AM
Will that really cut it at 30th level?
At level 30, no.
Surviving to level 30, sure.

(Once you get access to Plane Shift, Planar Bubble shenanigans or Gate, healing becomes a non-issue. The Positive Energy plane has more than enough HP for everyone.)

Epic levels themselves are weird.

You're tossing Geneses around, making planes that do whatever you want: You want an accelerated Positive-dominant plane? Bam. You have one.

Plane Shift the party in, full heal, plane shift out (maybe with a brief stop to turn undead and regain spells and soak up a few thousand temporary HP) and then be back wherever you started from in the next round.




...And even without epic spells, spellcasters are supposed to be able to research and otherwise design their own spells. For a Paladin/Sorcerer who wants to heal, I don't see where the problem lies.

at epic levels, Arcane Disciple and Wands won't do anything for you, except give a handful of spell slots for metamagicked Mass Heals. But if you're starting at epic levels, you shouldn't need that.]

magic9mushroom
2010-03-09, 07:10 AM
I must note that they get +1 to Sorc or Cleric per HD.

So, those RHDs? They advance casting.

11 class in melee, cast as 20 Sorc, 7 Clr.

Incorrectness! When something racial refers to HD, it only refers to racial HD. Also, its original HD are included in the "average" casting. So, if you got yourself 11 more racial HD, you would get 18 Sorc, 5 Clr.

In other words, no.

Delta
2010-03-09, 01:02 PM
at epic levels, Arcane Disciple and Wands won't do anything for you, except give a handful of spell slots for metamagicked Mass Heals. But if you're starting at epic levels, you shouldn't need that.]

Just for the record, as this thread has already gone waaaaaaay beyond what I had asked for ;) I do not expect to ever play this planned character at epic levels, much less start at at. Playability from Level 1 is much more important then epic potential, although the build should ideally be able to contribute to the party at Level 15+ as well.

Petrocorus
2010-03-09, 02:20 PM
Also, I've had several DM's ok the Battle Sorcerer upgrade for Favored Souls, which when combined with FSoB makes you for all intents a dragon. Combine with a means of getting a Sovereign Archetype and the spell-obsessed psychosis and you're hax good, with the two best lists to cast from spontaneously with no limit to spells known, plus full BAB, 3 good saves, and d12 HD. Hell, throw on Wyrm of War and you're a Warblade for free (well in initiating, but that's all that counts).

Woah! This one seems too awesome. Can you give the reference for all that stuff? PrC, feats, template?

Delta
2010-03-09, 02:21 PM
Now that I took a closer look as the Swiftblade, if I get it right, probably the best way to get into it would be to choose an Elven Wizard, correct? (Elven for the martial proficiency and Int bonus)

But wouldn't a wizard going for Swiftblade be really hard to keep alive at low levels?

Oh I almost forgot, how about the Battle Sorcerer? I found it on the SRD, and on first look, it looks like a quite decent choice, but I'm not really sure if giving up all those spells would be worth it? Any suggestions on this one?

Petrocorus
2010-03-09, 02:28 PM
No worse than a CoM, and besides, they're known for being melee monsters anyhow. If you really wanna be an arcane caster as a Cleric, snag Sword of the Arcane Order from PrC Paladin. You've got 5 levels to kill on a CoM anyhow, so it's not like you don't have wiggle room.

What is a CoM?

herrhauptmann
2010-03-09, 03:16 PM
Now that I took a closer look as the Swiftblade, if I get it right, probably the best way to get into it would be to choose an Elven Wizard, correct? (Elven for the martial proficiency and Int bonus)

But wouldn't a wizard going for Swiftblade be really hard to keep alive at low levels?

Oh I almost forgot, how about the Battle Sorcerer? I found it on the SRD, and on first look, it looks like a quite decent choice, but I'm not really sure if giving up all those spells would be worth it? Any suggestions on this one?

I'd swear there's an elf variant that doesn't lose con. Though those variants might lose int instead...
Yes elf is great for the martial profiencies. There really aren't many other races that get those AND have a 0 LA.
Other options, lesser tieflings/genasi I think count as outsiders. And outsiders automatically get full martial weapon profiency (granted they were intending slaadi, demons, celestials etc when they said that).

Optimator
2010-03-09, 03:26 PM
Snow Elves work.

Delta
2010-03-09, 04:27 PM
Snow Elves work.

Where are those from?

Eldariel
2010-03-10, 01:50 AM
Where are those from?

Book of snow, aka. Frostburn. There are plenty of no-Con-loss Elves, honestly. Snow Elves (Cha-penalty), Wild Elves (Con-penalty), Arctic Elves (Str-penalty), Desert Elves (Str-penalty), Painted Elves (Int-penalty), etc.

Godskook
2010-03-10, 02:00 AM
Other options, lesser tieflings/genasi I think count as outsiders.

Lesser tieflings are explicitly not outsiders. Since the proficiencies are type-based and not racial, they're probably lost in the conversion to lesser.

Pluto
2010-03-10, 02:05 AM
Oh I almost forgot, how about the Battle Sorcerer? I found it on the SRD, and on first look, it looks like a quite decent choice, but I'm not really sure if giving up all those spells would be worth it? Any suggestions on this one?
Battle Sorcerer plays very poorly with Swiftblade.

BS is only really useful when the alternative is 2+ levels in a non-casting class. In the Swiftblade's case, you're probably going Sorcerer 6/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion 4 either way.

You might want to use it at low levels, when survival can be a problem. But then, only if you can retrain it away later on in the build. (Or you could just stay away from melee until you have 50%+ miss chance, Polymorph and Wraithstrike on.)

Rhyvurg
2010-03-10, 02:55 AM
I've had a lot of luck with an egoist/slayer, with a fighter dip in the beginning. I also took warforged, the heavy armor feat, immunities, and light fortification was a real help. Plus, with the construct type I could use Metamorphosis to become various golems (two at once with a psicrystal) for awesome facepunching goodness and even more immunities that make DMs rip their hair out in frustration. I eventually dipped into a psionic variant Dragon Disciple at high levels just for fun (and getting the melee ability enhancements didn't hurt either, nor did the blindesense or bonus level 8-9 powers).

magic9mushroom
2010-03-10, 07:05 AM
Elves can be outsiders with a single regional feat, Otherworldly.

Player's Guide to Faerun.

Delta
2010-03-10, 11:09 AM
Elves can be outsiders with a single regional feat, Otherworldly.

Well, but if I'm playing an Elf in the first place, I don't need the Outsider anymore, I already get the martial proficiency needed for Swiftblade from the Elf, right?

magic9mushroom
2010-03-10, 04:46 PM
Well, but if I'm playing an Elf in the first place, I don't need the Outsider anymore, I already get the martial proficiency needed for Swiftblade from the Elf, right?

I don't know, I haven't seen Swiftblade.

You do get four free feats to replace the one you gave up, though, because the MWPs are now redundant and can be Chaos Shuffled with no loss.

herrhauptmann
2010-03-10, 08:24 PM
I don't know, I haven't seen Swiftblade.

You do get four free feats to replace the one you gave up, though, because the MWPs are now redundant and can be Chaos Shuffled with no loss.

I don't think that the racial bonuses can be swapped with chaos shuffle. I know SRD says you get them as bonus feats, but I don't think they can be swapped.

FMArthur
2010-03-10, 09:31 PM
I don't think the "Chaos Shuffle" is even a relevant suggestion in a thread asking for actual, practical advice. "I flagrantly begin to cheat" is not as successful as one might hope in games with DMs.

OP: If you are willing to give up your racial weapon proficiency in exchange for +2 Con, -2 Dex and nonmagical flight, or a crappy breath weapon, or some other option I can't even remember (probably because it is so much worse), Being a Grey Elf Dragonborn might be useful. On the other hand, since you will need to waste a feat on the proficiency you need... maybe Improved Toughness is worth +2 Con for what you'd need it for.

Tackyhillbillu
2010-03-10, 10:14 PM
This thread needs more Ruby Knight Windicator.

Delta
2010-03-11, 04:28 AM
I don't know, I haven't seen Swiftblade.

Prereq for entering Swiftblade is having at least one martial weapon proficiency.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-11, 05:51 AM
I don't think that the racial bonuses can be swapped with chaos shuffle. I know SRD says you get them as bonus feats, but I don't think they can be swapped.

Sure they can. Embrace the Dark Chaos allows you to lose any feat. They're feats that you have.


I don't think the "Chaos Shuffle" is even a relevant suggestion in a thread asking for actual, practical advice. "I flagrantly begin to cheat" is not as successful as one might hope in games with DMs.

OP: If you are willing to give up your racial weapon proficiency in exchange for +2 Con, -2 Dex and nonmagical flight, or a crappy breath weapon, or some other option I can't even remember (probably because it is so much worse), Being a Grey Elf Dragonborn might be useful. On the other hand, since you will need to waste a feat on the proficiency you need... maybe Improved Toughness is worth +2 Con for what you'd need it for.

You're assuming X Elf Dragonborn works, which it doesn't by RAW (inability to complete the ritual).

Petrocorus
2010-03-11, 10:15 AM
From what i've heard, there are some builds that could work. Some of them have already been proposed on this thread or some others. Someone who know the mechanics better than i do could probably improve them.


Wizard 6 / Swiftblade 3 / Abjurant Champion 4 / Sacred Exorcist 7
BAB +15 CL 19 Skill points 52

Wizard 6 / Swiftblade 6 / Abjurant Champion 4 / Sacred Exorcist 4
BAB +16 CL 18 Skill points 58

Wizard 6 / Swiftblade 9 / Abjurant Champion 5
BAB +17 CL 17 Skill points 64

I don't know the game well enough to say if the swiftblade abilities at high lvl worth the lose of the caster level?

You can try with Knight Phantom also:


Wizard 5 / Fighter 1 / Knight Phantom 9 / Spellsword 1 / Abj. Champion 4
BAB +17 CL 18 Skill points 46

Being an outsider and buying aff the LA could allow to build this:
Wizard 5 / Knight Phantom 10/ Abj. Champion 5
BAB +17 CL 19 Skill points 46

Eldariel
2010-03-11, 10:33 AM
They sorta are. Swiftblade is one of the very few cases where giving up caster levels isn't automatically wrong. Mind you, it isn't automatically right and probably still worse to give up CLs for the abilities, but it's close. Perpetual Options and Innervated Speed in particular are just plain amazing. As is getting the full slew of defenses from just one Ex-spell. Really, I rate Extraordinary Haste among the top abilities the class gets. Gives it so much exclusive power.

a typical hero
2010-03-11, 11:19 AM
If you're up for some shenanigans you should try:

-Wizard 1 / Anima Mage X
- get the feat Arcane Disciple to add a clerical domain to your spellbook
- ???
- Go to town with Divine Power 24/7


Full Spellcasting with Full BAB

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-11, 11:33 AM
Well...

There's arcane gish (Gish)- Dwarf Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Runesmith 1/Sacred Exorcist 6/Archmage 2

There's divine gish (Holygish)- Human Crusader 6/Divine Crusader 8/Contemplative 1/Divine Oracle 1/Sacred Exorcist 4

Then there's the psionic gish (psigish)- Elan Nomad 6/Elocator 1/Slayer 5/Sacred Exorcist 4/Arch Psion 4

Petrocorus
2010-03-11, 12:30 PM
They sorta are. Swiftblade is one of the very few cases where giving up caster levels isn't automatically wrong. Mind you, it isn't automatically right and probably still worse to give up CLs for the abilities, but it's close. Perpetual Options and Innervated Speed in particular are just plain amazing. As is getting the full slew of defenses from just one Ex-spell. Really, I rate Extraordinary Haste among the top abilities the class gets. Gives it so much exclusive power.

Innervated Speed look awesome, but it cost the 9th lvl of spell. Leaving the class at the 9th lvl seems, at first glance to be the best. Have you try to compare it in play? I just ask.

For the holy gish, Jaronk came on another thread with something like this:
Cloistered Cleric 4/Church Inquisitor 3/PrC Paladin 2/Sacred Exorcist 10/Contemplative 1

CL 19, BAB 12, 80 skill points, 3 bonus domains (Knowledge from cloistered, inquisition from church inquisitor + one from contemplative).

The low BAB is solved with DMM: persist Divine Power.
Plus, an emphasis on Knowledge Devotion and the feat Holy Warrior.
With Spontaneous Domain, you have almost always +9 to damage.

There is apparently a feat called Serenity that allows you to use Wis instead of Cha for the paladin's class feature, but i don't know what book it comes from.

If you use that recommendation (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/we/greyhawkdeities.html) for the spell domain, you can take Heironeous and the planning domain, which gives, IIRC, a free extend spell feat.

Gametime
2010-03-11, 12:37 PM
Nothing really compares to 9th level spells. Innervated Speed is amazing, but by getting 9th level spells you can pick up Time Stop and a slew of other world-shatterers as well.

That said, Innervated Speed is probably a lot more fun than most 9th level spells, what with the fact that it piggy backs on Haste's autoquicken. If you like stopping time every few seconds to piss off your enemies, accept no substitutes!

a typical hero
2010-03-11, 12:41 PM
And keep in mind that you get "swiftblade-timestop" with lvl 16.

So one Lvl 9 spell while everyone else is still "stuck" with lvl 8.

Can be handsome in a campaign that doesn't go past lvl 16.

Delta
2010-03-11, 01:14 PM
I guess I'll give the Swiftblade a shot, then, I simply love the style of it :)

Guess I'll worry about how many levels of the PrC to take when (or if) I ever get that far.

Eldariel
2010-03-11, 02:53 PM
Innervated Speed look awesome, but it cost the 9th lvl of spell. Leaving the class at the 9th lvl seems, at first glance to be the best. Have you try to compare it in play? I just ask.

As I said, it's one of the few cases where the decision isn't clear. By "not being clear", I'm saying "there is no absolute right choice but there are arguments for both sides". Ultimately, yes, 9s are better, but Innervated Speed is pretty damn good too.

Not only is it autoquickened, it's also Ex. Which is pretty scary.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-11, 06:19 PM
If you're up for some shenanigans you should try:

-Wizard 1 / Anima Mage X
- get the feat Arcane Disciple to add a clerical domain to your spellbook
- ???
- Go to town with Divine Power 24/7


Full Spellcasting with Full BAB

Anima Mage is tame. If you want proper free metamagic, use Metaphysical Spellshaper or Tainted Scholar.

Also, how in the heck are you qualifying for Anima Mage at level 1?

a typical hero
2010-03-12, 05:46 AM
Anima Mage is tame. If you want proper free metamagic, use Metaphysical Spellshaper or Tainted Scholar.

Also, how in the heck are you qualifying for Anima Mage at level 1?

Never said it was the best method of doing so.
I watched your tainted spellcasting thread a while ago but I doubt OP will get it past his DM. :smallwink:

You need Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige to qualify for Anima Mage as far as I can remember...but it should be possible. You don't advance your binder-level and waste 2 feats but you don't have to give up spellprogression.

Just wanted to mention another method :smallsmile:

Sparta2388
2010-03-17, 01:35 AM
The classic Sorcadin build is one way to do it. There are lots of varieties, but a simple one is Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5, then your choice of Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom to finish it off.

This is awesome. I've been trying to find a Spellsword setup for days. And this is almost exactly what I had.

My question is...which would you guys say would be better? Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom?

Knight Phantom requires Still Spell as a prerequisite. The abilities seem to be OK at best, but maybe I'm mistaken. Maybe someone could enlighten me?

Eldritch Knight although it has no abilities, provides a bonus feat. So in essence you get two feats when picking this class (since you don't need Still Spell).

However, the Knight Phantom has a d8 for hit die and the Eldritch Knight has a d6 for hit die.

Also after 21 I was thinking of taking Level 4 of Spellsword, thoughts on this? Provides a bonus feat and Channel Spell 3/Day.



Edit: Also my character is a Drow (CG), maybe Phantom-esk abilities would be more fitting? Although I don't want this to weight my decision.

KellKheraptis
2010-03-17, 02:41 AM
There is also the Chrono-Legionaire for psi-gish, which is Nomad 3/Ranger 1/Nomad 1/Anarchic Initiate 3/Slayer 2/Fighter1/Slayer 8/Anarchic Initiate 1. The full build is posted several places and you can google it, complete with powers known and such. He can take down a Heca (CR 57 Epic Aberration) at ECL 20 reliably :)

magic9mushroom
2010-03-17, 03:56 AM
Never said it was the best method of doing so.
I watched your tainted spellcasting thread a while ago but I doubt OP will get it past his DM. :smallwink:

Which one? I've posted multiple Tainted Scholar threads.


You need Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige to qualify for Anima Mage as far as I can remember...but it should be possible. You don't advance your binder-level and waste 2 feats but you don't have to give up spellprogression.

Just wanted to mention another method :smallsmile:

That Intimidate requirement is a pain. A big pain. You'd need 3 levels to get that. Also, 4 feats at first level is a big investment, especially if you're not playing with flaws or taint.

Pluto
2010-03-17, 08:45 PM
My question is...which would you guys say would be better? Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom?
Is Sacred Exorcist an option? Because Sacred Exorcist (CD) is a better choice than either.
But of those two, I lean toward EK, both because it gives extra feats to a feat-starved build and because it comes in the DMG (instead of an obscure setting-specific sourcebook). And it doesn't look as ridiculous at first glance.


Knight Phantom requires Still Spell as a prerequisite. The abilities seem to be OK at best, but maybe I'm mistaken. Maybe someone could enlighten me?
You're right. Still Spell may as well be a wasted feat. If Sudden Still can substitute, the class might be better off, but only slightly.


Eldritch Knight although it has no abilities, provides a bonus feat. So in essence you get two feats when picking this class (since you don't need Still Spell).

However, the Knight Phantom has a d8 for hit die and the Eldritch Knight has a d6 for hit die.
Take Improved Toughness with EK and it still has one free feat.

(The armor thing isn't so impressive alongside Greater/Luminous Armor and Mithril Chain.)


Also after 21 I was thinking of taking Level 4 of Spellsword, thoughts on this? Provides a bonus feat and Channel Spell 3/Day.
Epic is crazy. I like Spellsword, but anything requiring melee to function is something I'd prefer to avoid. (Even with Barbarians.)


Edit: Also my character is a Drow (CG), maybe Phantom-esk abilities would be more fitting?Maybe.

Sparta2388
2010-03-18, 01:17 AM
Is Sacred Exorcist an option? Because Sacred Exorcist (CD) is a better choice than either.

How so? I understand it seems to have some handy abilities, but I think for this character I'd rather have the extra BAB and the feat, know what I mean? I'm not in a rush to get 9th level spells to the point where I would take Sacred Exorcist to get them one level sooner. Maybe I'm missing something about the class, Idk.

I'll definitely put Improved Toughness on my feats to get list. :P

Pluto
2010-03-18, 02:09 AM
How so?Turn Undead is huge.
Well, Divine and Domain feats are huge.

See: Divine Might and Vigor (CW) or Law, Travel, Animal or Trickery Devotions (CC).

All are very worth a 1-level delay in BA.

TheMadLinguist
2010-03-18, 02:39 AM
Nothing really compares to 9th level spells. Innervated Speed is amazing, but by getting 9th level spells you can pick up Time Stop and a slew of other world-shatterers as well.

That said, Innervated Speed is probably a lot more fun than most 9th level spells, what with the fact that it piggy backs on Haste's autoquicken. If you like stopping time every few seconds to piss off your enemies, accept no substitutes!

Being a sharn brings you pretty close, though.

Three standard actions per round can make up for a whole lot, actually.

Escheton
2010-03-18, 04:26 AM
Book of snow, aka. Frostburn. There are plenty of no-Con-loss Elves, honestly. Snow Elves (Cha-penalty), Wild Elves (Con-penalty), Arctic Elves (Str-penalty), Desert Elves (Str-penalty), Painted Elves (Int-penalty), etc.

might want to edit that

also a Ruby Knight Vindicator is total win as said before.
full bab, hd d8 ,full initiator, 8 cl increases, 4+int skills, maneuvers every other lvl and stances thrown in as well. And neat abilities as well.
Swordsage2, cleric 3, with 2 feats to get the prereqs and you even get wis to ac like a monk.
havent worked it out beyond lvl 15 yet though

Escheton
2010-03-18, 04:51 AM
also Im thinking dread necro8/ paladin of tyranny or slaughter2/gish appropriate prestigeclass 10
havent worked it out as I dont feel like it. But im thinking of using a arcane disciple and wardomain loop to cast rightious might a lot or as a 24hour spell or something
anyone care to help me flesh this guy out?

Sparta2388
2010-03-18, 05:38 AM
Turn Undead is huge.
Well, Divine and Domain feats are huge.

See: Divine Might and Vigor (CW) or Law, Travel, Animal or Trickery Devotions (CC).

All are very worth a 1-level delay in BA.

So the first level of this class seems to be extremely useful. Would the next 9 be good for anything more than just caster levels? I'm really feeling Divine Vigor with Improved Toughness.

Pluto
2010-03-18, 10:55 AM
So the first level of this class seems to be extremely useful. Would the next 9 be good for anything more than just caster levels?
The class's abilities are pretty tame, but its frame is good. The next 3 levels give 3 points BA, d8 HD and 3 CL. It's hard to beat that once you've finished AbjChamp.
Also, it fluffs well with Paladin. But I think I worry about that more than most posters.

I'm really feeling Divine Vigor with Improved Toughness.Sounds good. Just be sure you still have resources left for offense.
[Monk Syndrome is kind of a drag.]

Godskook
2010-03-18, 11:03 AM
How so? I understand it seems to have some handy abilities, but I think for this character I'd rather have the extra BAB and the feat, know what I mean? I'm not in a rush to get 9th level spells to the point where I would take Sacred Exorcist to get them one level sooner. Maybe I'm missing something about the class, Idk.

I'll definitely put Improved Toughness on my feats to get list. :P

You're also missing that there a few(if any) other options out there that'll get you L9 spells at all in non-epic play on a sorcadin. In an epic game, it becomes unimportant, but at L20, would you really want 17 BAB, L8 spells and a fighter feat over 16 BAB and L9 spells? I mean, what fighter feat is worth giving up access to 9th level spells? That BAB isn't worth it in the long run, as +2 damage just doesn't stack up with Shapechange, for instance.

Sparta2388
2010-03-18, 02:15 PM
You're also missing that there a few(if any) other options out there that'll get you L9 spells at all in non-epic play on a sorcadin. In an epic game, it becomes unimportant, but at L20, would you really want 17 BAB, L8 spells and a fighter feat over 16 BAB and L9 spells? I mean, what fighter feat is worth giving up access to 9th level spells? That BAB isn't worth it in the long run, as +2 damage just doesn't stack up with Shapechange, for instance.

Very well said.

I'm sadly have a harder time with Gish feats than most people for a few reasons.
*I'm a Drow, so I have Daylight Adaptation.
*For RP purposes, my character worships Eilistraee, so I had him use a Bastard Sword, for fun. Exotic Weapon Prof. sucks.

Sparta2388
2010-03-18, 02:58 PM
*For RP purposes, my character worships Eilistraee, so I had him use a Bastard Sword, for fun. Exotic Weapon Prof. sucks.

So I was looking into the "Skillful" enchantment. I'm having trouble making sense of the second part...does it mean that it also improves your base attack bonus to that of a cleric of the same level?


Skillful

There is no non-proficiency penalty for wielding a Skillful weapon.

The minimum Base Attack Bonus for this weapon only
(i.e., does not apply to the other hand) is 3/4 Character level
(i.e., same as a Cleric of the same level).

Pluto
2010-03-18, 04:43 PM
*For RP purposes, my character worships Eilistraee, so I had him use a Bastard Sword, for fun. Exotic Weapon Prof. sucks.
That it does. So don't take it.

(Fighter/Wizard-types usually can't use their off-hands for anything interesting, so you might as well two-hand the sword. Dropping and grabbing the weapon with your offhand is a free action anyway. Spending a feat for less damage makes no sense.)

(Edit: Neither does paying extra for less damage.)

Sparta2388
2010-03-18, 05:10 PM
That it does. So don't take it.

(Fighter/Wizard-types usually can't use their off-hands for anything interesting, so you might as well two-hand the sword. Dropping and grabbing the weapon with your offhand is a free action anyway. Spending a feat for less damage makes no sense.)

(Edit: Neither does paying extra for less damage.)

True, true. Then Greatsword I would assume is the weapon of choice?

I may just keep a Masterwork Bastard Sword on my character since it was for RP purposes only anyway.

@1 Daylight Adaptation
@3 Power Attack
@6 Combat Casting
@9 Arcane Strike
@12 (Yeah, I still don't know. Maybe Weapon Focus.)

The group is ECL15 right now, which puts me at Level 13 since I'm a Drow, I figure at Level 15 I'll pick up Divine Might.

Thoughts on all that?

Petrocorus
2010-03-18, 06:47 PM
So, you're going for the Sorcadin?
Chaotic-Good?

Do you worship only Eilistrae or some other gods also?
The domain access ACF could be useful.

Sparta2388
2010-03-18, 09:26 PM
The domain access ACF could be useful.

Not to sound like a noob, but what do you mean by domain access ACF? :x

And yeah, only Eilistraee, unless the above changes my opinion on the matter, lol.

Petrocorus
2010-03-18, 10:22 PM
Not to sound like a noob, but what do you mean by domain access ACF? :x

And yeah, only Eilistraee, unless the above changes my opinion on the matter, lol.

You're surely not as noob as me, anyway.

The Domain Access is an alternative class feature from Complete Champion that allow you to take a cleric domain. You replace one spell known per lvl by the domain spell and you gain the domain granted power.
Such as the weapon proficiency and weapon focus for the war domain (which could solves your bastard sword problem if Eilistraee would allow this domain), or a free extend spell feat for the planning domain.
You can cast the domain spell once per day only,which is a problem since you know one less arcane spell; but you have access to spell like cure spell (not optimal but unusual for mage), Miracle (Luck domain), Divine Power (war domain) among others, and it allow you to use some feat like Holy Warrior (complete champion too).
Some others give you turn/rebuke abilities that can be useful in combo.

Pluto
2010-03-18, 10:30 PM
True, true. Then Greatsword I would assume is the weapon of choice?

I may just keep a Masterwork Bastard Sword on my character since it was for RP purposes only anyway.
Bastard Swords are martial weapons when you weild them 2-handed.

You'll lose a little damage if you use one instead of a Greatsword, but it shouldn't really matter.

Sparta2388
2010-03-18, 10:35 PM
Bastard Swords are martial weapons when you weild them 2-handed.

You'll lose a little damage if you use one instead of a Greatsword, but it shouldn't really matter.

Yeah, I actually just read that in my PHB and was going to post it, lol. I might do that, it'll be fun to RP. I'm gonna make a rival for this guy anyway, also a Gish and he'll use a Greatsword. ;P

Besides, most of the damage from Sorcadin comes from all of the crazy feats and what-not. It's 1-8 damage verses a more consistant 2-12. Greatsword is definitely better, I'm not debating that, it just isn't that big of a deal. :)



Also:
Would I meet the Prerequisites for Weapon Focus for a Bastard Sword if I don't have the Exotic Weapon Prof. even if I use it with two hands as a Martial Weapon?

herrhauptmann
2010-03-18, 10:46 PM
Bastard sword is d10. Longsword is d8. both crit on 19-20x2.
I believe you'd be able to use the benefits of Weapon Focus so long as you kept it 2handed.
If you swapped to onehanded, you'd take penalties for lack of proficiency, even if DM said you still got the benefit of your weapon focus. :smallconfused:

As a warning, Weapon focus is considered subpar on this forum. But if you're doing it to be flavorful, then go nuts and have fun. (My complaints with Eilistraee, only female clerics, and the whole running naked through the woods sounds like a designer was having a wet dream)

Sparta2388
2010-03-18, 10:52 PM
Bastard sword is d10. Longsword is d8. both crit on 19-20x2.
I believe you'd be able to use the benefits of Weapon Focus so long as you kept it 2handed.
If you swapped to onehanded, you'd take penalties for lack of proficiency, even if DM said you still got the benefit of your weapon focus. :smallconfused:

As a warning, Weapon focus is considered subpar on this forum. But if you're doing it to be flavorful, then go nuts and have fun. (My complaints with Eilistraee, only female clerics, and the whole running naked through the woods sounds like a designer was having a wet dream)

Haha, yeah I guess I could see that. Yeah I picked her when I was looking at the crystalkeep index for deities and saw she was the only CG deity, it just seemed like I should pick her. CG Drow who plays the lute in the moonlight (yeah it's a little gay), and since she has moon as a domain I thought it would be kind of cool. That's also why I went with the Bastard Sword, since it's her favored weapon.

Why do people on this forum consider Weapon focus to be sub-par, I'm new here. :( I'll definitely be around here a lot though, I've been looking for a good D&D forum.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-18, 10:55 PM
Haha, yeah I guess I could see that. Yeah I picked her when I was looking at the crystalkeep index for deities and saw she was the only CG deity, it just seemed like I should pick her. CG Drow who plays the lute in the moonlight (yeah it's a little gay), and since she has moon as a domain I thought it would be kind of cool. That's also why I went with the Bastard Sword, since it's her favored weapon.

Why do people on this forum consider Weapon focus to be sub-par, I'm new here. :( I'll definitely be around here a lot though, I've been looking for a good D&D forum.

Because it gives a small mechanical bonus that does not scale with your level. In core it's fine since there are so few good feats, but non-core you can do so much better.

Sparta2388
2010-03-18, 11:04 PM
Because it gives a small mechanical bonus that does not scale with your level. In core it's fine since there are so few good feats, but non-core you can do so much better.

Understood. :)

This is what I was thinking of doing for the first 21 levels...

Drow (CG) uses a Bastard Sword (2H, Martial).
Paladin of Freedom 2/Metamagic Specialist 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

And then Spellsword 2 at level 21.

Feats...

@1 Daylight Adaptation
@3 Power Attack
@6 Practiced Spellcaster
@9 Combat Casting
@12 Arcane Strike
@15 Divine Might
@18 Extend Spell
@21 Epic Spellcasting

Spellsword Bonus Feat
@21 Persistent Spell

I was considering switching Extend spell with Practiced Spellcaster for the sake of having it earlier, but I couldn't decide which was more important. ;/

Thoughts on this setup? This is my first time making a Gish so I'm trying to soak in as much as I can from so many different sources, lol.

I was having some trouble picking between Metamagic Specialist and Blood of Siberys for the Sorcerer variant, but I figured that Metamagic Specialist would save a feat for me (Arcane Preparation).

Also, I've been looking for the answer for this everywhere. The Spellsword's Channel Spell ability, can you use Epic Spells for this? It says that it's only a move action to store a spell and says nothing of the spells casting time. Can you store a 1 minute cast time Epic Spell as a move action and then use it when you hit your opponent? As far as what spells you can cast using the ability, all that it states "a spellsword can channel any spell he can cast into his melee weapon".

Sparta2388
2010-03-20, 01:40 AM
Should I be worried about any other feats? :x

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-20, 01:59 AM
I personally like Archivist 2/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 10/Archivist PrC 7

Great Gish build. Full BAB, 6th arcane, full divine for buffing. Clerics make better warriors than warriors.

Pluto
2010-03-20, 02:14 AM
I was having some trouble picking between Metamagic Specialist and Blood of Siberys for the Sorcerer variant, but I figured that Metamagic Specialist would save a feat for me (Arcane Preparation).I'd drop Metamagic Specialist.

You don't get any metamagic until ECL 18. And then it's Extend/Persist (which are usually used to minimize in-combat casting).

I'm not familiar with Blood of Siberys, but anything is going to do more for you than MS.

Sparta2388
2010-03-20, 02:48 AM
I'd drop Metamagic Specialist.

You don't get any metamagic until ECL 18. And then it's Extend/Persist (which are usually used to minimize in-combat casting).

I'm not familiar with Blood of Siberys, but anything is going to do more for you than MS.

Blood of Siberys gives you +4 CHA when deciding what level of spell you can cast and bonus spells per day. :)

And I didn't even think about that. Generally if I use Persistent Spell I won't need to worry about Full Round cast time anyway, huh? Since I'd probably cast it at the beginning of the day. Blood of Siberys will give me a few more spells. Are there any Sorcerer variants you might suggest, cause you made a very good point with the Metamagic Specialist.

term1nally s1ck
2010-03-20, 10:53 AM
I think there's a 10gp item that negates the dazzled in direct sunlight problem...Sundark goggles (races of the wild/races of the dragon, can't remember which)

That would free up a feat which you could use for a melee feat or a caster feat...I'd get quicken spell if possible, 2 castings a round are much better than one.

EDIT: And you can get extend spell as that domain ACF ability (planning domain)

Sparta2388
2010-03-20, 04:45 PM
I think there's a 10gp item that negates the dazzled in direct sunlight problem...Sundark goggles (races of the wild/races of the dragon, can't remember which)

That would free up a feat which you could use for a melee feat or a caster feat...I'd get quicken spell if possible, 2 castings a round are much better than one.

EDIT: And you can get extend spell as that domain ACF ability (planning domain)

You think Quicken Spell is worth it? I'm not saying I think it's a bad idea, it's just that the +4 adjustment hurts. ;/ And how would I get the planning domain?

@1 Power Attack
@3 Practiced Spellcaster
@6 Combat Casting
@9 Extend Spell
@12 Arcane Strike
@15 Divine Might
@18 Persistent Spell

@21 Epic Spellcasting
@21 Quicken Spell

Though I should probably get Quicken Spell earlier. I was also looking at Law Devotion, but apparently I can't get it because I worship a CG deity? :x

term1nally s1ck
2010-03-20, 04:59 PM
Planning domain grants it as a bonus feat, if you can get access to that.

Don't get quicken, abj champ lets you quicken abjurations anyway, I forgot.

Sparta2388
2010-03-20, 06:48 PM
Planning domain grants it as a bonus feat, if you can get access to that.

Don't get quicken, abj champ lets you quicken abjurations anyway, I forgot.

Well at least my first 20 levels are pretty much decided then, I think.

@1 Power Attack
@3 Practiced Spellcaster
@6 Combat Casting
@9 Extend Spell
@12 Arcane Might
@15 Divine Might
@18 Persistent Spell

And I guess I'll go with Blood of Siberys over Metamagic Specialist, unless someone knows a better variant. :x I was thinking maybe Arcane Reabsorbtion but I wasn't liking the damage factor.

Can someone maybe explain Law Devotion a little better, or well, Domain feats really. If I worship Eilistraee can I get Law Devotion? The description of domain feats makes it seam like it doesn't matter.

KellKheraptis
2010-03-20, 06:56 PM
Let's see if I can fire this from the hip from memory :

Cloistered Cleric 3/Wizard 1/Spelldancer 2/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Heirophant 2/Fochlucan Lyrist 10

Bamboo Spirit Folk or an ACF/racial variant that nabs Wilderness Stride (or whichever one FL needed...might have been Trackless Step). You will want Initiate of Mystra, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, DMM : Persistent Spell, and you need Dodge, Mobility, Endurance, and Combat Casting. Hard to do without Flaws, but far from impossible (actually, Wizard ACF + 1st and 3rd feats means only one flaw needed, or human if a means exists through ACF to get Trackless Step, assuming BSF don't also get a human feat). The end result? Dual 9's, BAB 16 fractionally (moot point with Divine Power, but nice nonetheless), high skills, Knowledge Devotion, Bardic Music and Knowledge as at least a 10th level Bard, autopersisting from Spelldancer, and all this inside an AMF if the situation arises.

term1nally s1ck
2010-03-20, 07:12 PM
Can someone maybe explain Law Devotion a little better, or well, Domain feats really. If I worship Eilistraee can I get Law Devotion? The description of domain feats makes it seam like it doesn't matter.

You can take any devotion feat as a normal feat if your deity has that domain.

You can trade any domain you have access to (cleric domain, or paladin domain acf) for the relevant devotion feat. But you lose the benefits of that Domain if you do.

Petrocorus
2010-03-20, 10:14 PM
Can someone maybe explain Law Devotion a little better, or well, Domain feats really. If I worship Eilistraee can I get Law Devotion? The description of domain feats makes it seam like it doesn't matter.


You can take any devotion feat as a normal feat if your deity has that domain.

You can trade any domain you have access to (cleric domain, or paladin domain acf) for the relevant devotion feat. But you lose the benefits of that Domain if you do.

Actually:



Usually, domain feats go together only if they correpond to the domains offered by the deity you follow.
...
Appropriate Theme: If you do not follow any specific deity, your basic system of beliefs should support your domain feat choices.
...
These beliefs must also be consistent with your alignment.


Emphasis mine.

I think a DM would not allow a CG character worshipping Eilistraee to take the Law Devotion. At least, he shouldn't.

Sparta2388
2010-03-20, 10:41 PM
Actually:



Emphasis mine.

I think a DM would not allow a CG character worshipping Eilistraee to take the Law Devotion. At least, he shouldn't.

Understandable. I just wanted to double check, I pretty much figured that. Pretty amazing feat though, I will say that. ;o

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-20, 10:42 PM
Chaos devotion isn't bad, it got the posibillity of having a better bonus thatn law devotion.

Petrocorus
2010-03-20, 11:11 PM
You're not forced to take a devotion corresponding to a domain offered by Eilistraee, you're just forbidden to take a devotion which contradict your alignment or Eilistraee's principles. Like Evil, or Law. But i don't think that would be a problem if you took Animal or Knowledge Devotion.

Sparta2388
2010-03-21, 12:15 AM
For Sorcerer variant, I picked Blood of Siberys because it gave me extra spells, but it seems like Arcane Reabsorbtion would be a better variant? Seems like I'd end up with more spells if some of mine get resisted, but I also take damage.

Blood of Siberys
Your Charisma is effectively +4 for the purpose of receiving extra Sorcerer spells and the maximum Sorcerer spell level you can cast.

Arcane Reabsorbtion
If a spell you cast is Countered –or– fails to overcome the target’s Spell Resistance, you may “reabsorb” the spell as an Immediate Action by making a Spellcraft check vs. DC 20 + [3 * spell level]. If successful, you retain the Spell Slot, but take (spell level) nonlethal damage (which bypasses your Damage Reduction /resistances). Note: to use this ability, the spell must have had no effect whatsoever.

Using Extend Spell and Persistent Spell doesn't really require me to have Metamagic Specialist, so these are what I narrowed myself down to.

Kallisti
2010-03-21, 01:01 AM
A Cleric or Druid's buff spells make it a Gish straight out of the box with minimal effort. Especially Cleric.

Also, Warlock. A Glaivelock can be a pretty scary melee combatant even without the real cheese.

Sparta2388
2010-03-21, 02:07 AM
Blood of Siberys
Your Charisma is effectively +4 for the purpose of receiving extra Sorcerer spells and the maximum Sorcerer spell level you can cast.

Arcane Reabsorbtion
If a spell you cast is Countered –or– fails to overcome the target’s Spell Resistance, you may “reabsorb” the spell as an Immediate Action by making a Spellcraft check vs. DC 20 + [3 * spell level]. If successful, you retain the Spell Slot, but take (spell level) nonlethal damage (which bypasses your Damage Reduction /resistances). Note: to use this ability, the spell must have had no effect whatsoever.


Wouldn't Arcane Reabsorbtion work with Epic Spells too? Although the DC would be 50. Wouldn't be able to make that for a while though... :/ Although, I mean it's based off of the Spellcraft check and so is Epic Spellcasting, so maybe Epic Skill Focus (Spellcraft) is called for? That is, if Arcane Reabsorbtion is worth it over Blood of Siberys.

term1nally s1ck
2010-03-21, 07:59 AM
Appropriate Theme: If you do not follow any specific deity, your basic system of beliefs should support your domain feat choices.


He can't just do that if he does follow a deity. He's limited atm to his deity's domains.

Sparta2388
2010-03-21, 09:20 PM
Oh, would anyone be able to point me in the direction of a good (basic) gish spell list? Also, I've noticed that most lists don't include Scorching Ray. Is this because it's fire damage? Or just because gish usually focus on buffs only?

Also, Wings of Flurry (RotD) seemed interesting. It scales with your level, infinitely it seems. But RefHalf and SR. :/

Eldariel
2010-03-22, 06:38 AM
Oh, would anyone be able to point me in the direction of a good (basic) gish spell list? Also, I've noticed that most lists don't include Scorching Ray. Is this because it's fire damage? Or just because gish usually focus on buffs only?

Also, Wings of Flurry (RotD) seemed interesting. It scales with your level, infinitely it seems. But RefHalf and SR. :/

Why would a Gish prepare damage spells? He has even less reason to do so than a caster. You spend a ton of levels and spells and resources on becoming a competent damage dealer with your weapon, you should be using that. If you want one, pick something that does something you can't replicate with your weapon; Wings of Flurry is a good one as is Enervation.

Mostly though, your spells should see to:
- Your mobility
- Your anti-magic capabilities
- Your buffing
- Your sensory abilities
- Some limited Control-abilities to morph battlefield as you desire
- General utility (Disintegrate et al.)
- Maybe few offensive spell for types best not fought through weapons (poor save/high AC+HP types, hard-to-reach types, etc.)


But really, all depends on your class, level, sources allowed and...well, everything.

term1nally s1ck
2010-03-22, 10:15 AM
And take a lot of Abjurations you'd want to use as a swift action. Dispels are best, but there are other good ones.

Sparta2388
2010-03-24, 01:30 AM
The last three games I've played Wings of Flurry kicked some serious ass. As long as I'm not going against Evasion, I'm usually dealing nice AoE damage and it doesn't hit my allies. The extra daze effect is awesome. Some 32 Dire Bats attacked us and I dropped more than half of them in that round, even if it's just for fun, this spell is a keeper. :)

term1nally s1ck
2010-03-24, 10:31 AM
Swift/immediate action spells are nice, too.

Rhino's rush, Wings of Cover (block ANYTHING as an immediate action? Yes please.), etc.