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View Full Version : Introducing brutal grittiness into D&D



Amiel
2010-03-06, 07:22 PM
Some have argued that it is expediently easy to survive in D&D; the plethora of healing spells, the abundance of items of resurrection, the many clerics able to be roped into performing miracles et al; all serve to imbue a measure of immortality.

How would you go about introducing brutal grittiness into D&D?

One idea would be to completely get rid of the Positive Energy Plane; and by extension all healing (this includes remove disease et al) and cure spells. Healing, then, falls to the Heal skill rather than any external spell casting; aspects of the Concentration skill can be folded into the Heal skill for further difficulty.
However, necromancy remains.

Another would be the introduction of item breakdown (wear and tear); all items must be periodically repaired, otherwise they become useless, even breaking in the midst of combat.

No items (rods of resurrections, wands of cure wounds et al) exist. Healing must be undertaken with the Heal skill, or visiting apothecaries (who may know more about pharmaceuticals, herbs or chemicals than about healing).

Monsters deal a greater amount of damage than usual. All monster damage dice are one dice up from previous entries; as per the Increased Damage By Size table.

Anytime the Massive Damage rule comes into play, the total damage able to be sustained is equal to the character's Con modifier x 2 (modifier not ability score). If this doesn't kill the character outright, Fort saves must be attempted at DC 25.
There is no HD-based massive damage threshold.
Additional rule; for every 5 points of damage dealt by an attack in excess of a character's massive damage threshold, Fort saves DCs are increased by 2.

Death is on 0 hit points; you're not disabled any more, you are dead.

Wounds in combat may fester, leak pus, or otherwise become gangrenous. Immediate healing must be done, otherwise the threat of amputation (force-chosen vorpal strikes) increases.
Amputation decreases Str, Con, Dex scores by 2.

Alternate rule; there is no such thing as nonlethal damage.

Flickerdart
2010-03-06, 07:32 PM
That'd work only if you removed casters entirely, since melee is utterly dependant on healing. Also? Tomb-Tainted Soul + Inflicts/Charnel Touch and Repair Damage would still function.

lsfreak
2010-03-06, 07:33 PM
One of the easiest ways is a wound system instead of hit point system. Vitality is you 'hit points' that represent your 'energy level' in combat - once it's gone, you can no longer effectively dodge hits. Wounds are you actual hits, which are drastically lower, and also what critical hits go to. A single crit at any level can ruin your day. There's one presented in UA/SRD.


One idea would be to completely get rid of the Positive Energy Plane; and by extension all healing (this includes remove disease et al) and cure spells. Healing, then, falls to the Heal skill rather than any external spell casting; aspects of the Concentration skill can be folded into the Heal skill for further difficulty.
However, necromancy remains.
This could potentially work. Let the Heal skill actually heal, though, or at least heal vitality (with a wound system). Or keep magic around, but limit it mostly to vitality.


Another would be the introduction of item breakdown (wear and tear); all items must be periodically repaired, otherwise they become useless, even breaking in the midst of combat.
Adds tons of bookwork without really making anything 'grittier.'


Monsters deal a greater amount of damage than usual. All monster damage dice are one dice up from previous entries; as per the Increased Damage By Size table.
Not really needed. Just refeat them, most of them have terribad feats anywho. Giving a small pride of dire lions the Shock Trooper chain, for example, can ruin someone's day. Alternatively, all monsters get an elite array instead of 10/10/10/11/11/11.


Anytime the Massive Damage rule comes into play, the total damage able to be sustained is equal to the character's Con modifier x 2 (modifier not ability score). If this doesn't kill the character outright, Fort saves must be attempted at DC 25.
There is no HD-based massive damage threshold.
Additional rule; for every 5 points of damage dealt by an attack in excess of a character's massive damage threshold, Fort saves DCs are increased by 2.
Not, NOT good, unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean. It's not uncommon to drop 30-50 damage a hit by level 10. That's pretty much guaranteed death.


Death is on 0 hit points; you're not disabled any more, you are dead.
Grittier, but less realistic. See wound points system, which modifies this.

Soranar
2010-03-06, 07:35 PM
Healing in Dnd is similar to comparing rainbow six to counter strike. Hopefully you're similar with both.

Why is counter strike more played (and more fun)? It's just a lot more fun to not die in a single shot. Sure it can happen, but often enough it won't and you have a fighting chance of shooting back before being killed.

If you increase monster damage, invent new rules (for disease and infections) and remove healing you will have players that are a lot more careful than normal. Expect lots of preparation, rope tricks, hesitation and next to no physical action. Actually playing a physical character without say stoneskin, mirror image or the like will be akin to beggin for an early death.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-06, 07:36 PM
The removal of magical healing, with the exceptions of limited wish, wish and miracle, would probably significantly increase the grittiness of the game. At least if you also include the logical ramifications of such. IE; an outbreak of a disease can wipe out large portions of a major metropolis or city and completely annihilate anything of town size or smaller. To balance this you'd want to replace heal with the treat injury skill from d20 modern or something similar.

Devils_Advocate
2010-03-06, 09:45 PM
How would you go about introducing brutal grittiness into D&D?
I'd include the basic setting elements of Dungeons & Dragons in a campaign run using a gritty, at-least-kinda realistic system, like GURPS or something. Level 20 characters who can wade into an army of mooks without feat would be right out. "Hit points" of the D&D variety, which place damage on hold until they fall to 0 and then let you have it all at once (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CriticalExistenceFailure), would be right out. (Certainly I wouldn't abstract everything further into all being generic "damage" by removing nonlethal damage and introducing death at 0 HP! Specific injuries and damage to items go hand in hand as de-abstractions of damage.)

Things like those are the glaringly non-gritty, cinematic elements of the game. Introducing e.g. routine weapon damage before you deal with that stuff seems kinda silly, no offense intended.

Magical healing doesn't need to be eliminated at all if you just want to make player characters' lives dangerous instead of unpleasant. You might want to make it uncommon in order to make peasants' lives suck too, though.

Volkov
2010-03-06, 09:49 PM
I myself go for the black and blacker morality system, where everyone are varying degrees of bastards and the truly good are brutally slaughtered. Evil creatures being far more potent than their good counterparts, leaving only law vs chaos and evil vs evil. Singular pit fiends wipe out entire platoons of solars with little effort, Orcs wantonly slaughter and rape elves, Giants step on dwarves. That sort of thing. This is how I make things "gritty." Or is that Grimdark?

Frosty
2010-03-06, 09:56 PM
You'd need to change the stats to make it reflect logical consequences. If Pit Fiends can defeat Solars effortlessly, then Pit Fiends would need to become much less common, or else the heavens would've been overrun already. Giants stepping on Dwarves do work...or at least they try to. Dwarves get like a +4 AC vs Giants or somethings. Orcs probably already rape elves if the orcs win the battle.

AslanCross
2010-03-06, 09:56 PM
See also: Dark Sun.
You've got practically nonexistent gods, arcane magic that corrupts reality, and a barren wasteland of a world.

They've also thrown out the traditional racial tropes: elves aren't magical hippies; they're scoundrels and swindlers, while halflings are XENOPHOBIC CANNIBALS!

Kylarra
2010-03-06, 09:58 PM
I myself go for the black and blacker morality system, where everyone are varying degrees of bastards and the truly good are brutally slaughtered. Evil creatures being far more potent than their good counterparts, leaving only law vs chaos and evil vs evil. Singular pit fiends wipe out entire platoons of solars with little effort, Orcs wantonly slaughter and rape elves, Giants step on dwarves. That sort of thing. This is how I make things "gritty." Or is that Grimdark?Sounds more like a Crapsack world (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld).

Godskook
2010-03-06, 10:00 PM
Some have argued that it is expediently easy to survive in D&D; the plethora of healing spells, the abundance of items of resurrection, the many clerics able to be roped into performing miracles et al; all serve to imbue a measure of immortality.

Play E6, and don't allow the 2 or 3 really good healing things that still exist in that variant. Instantly gritty.

1stEd.Thief
2010-03-06, 10:24 PM
Grit? Easy: Low level campaigns. I think it is waaaay more fun to be terrified of a charging minotaur than be wondering exactly how my WB(20th)L and contingent win-buttons will make me invincible. No rule changes required.

Now, I admit, first level kinda sucks... but that's how you forge heroes that one (me, anyway) can really relate to. That and you can't afford (or maybe even FIND) a wand of CLW or a rez, so death is a real possibility.

There is also the advantage of that sweet spot where fighters and wizards can both contribute. (somewhere between 3-10 depending on optimization, I believe)

Yet another thought: Minotaurs are CR 4 as I recall. And there are LOTS of lower CR critters. Too tired to challenge the Wiz20? Grab something easy from the MM to pit against the n0obs. Getting time for a TPK (so you never have to deal with Wiz20)? Mind Flayers and Beholders are the stuff of nightmares, and iconic D&D to boot.


__________________________________________________
That's Right: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html

Volkov
2010-03-06, 10:25 PM
Constantly browbeat the players, thwart all but their best planned efforts. Crush their souls, break their backs. KILL!!! MAIM!!! BURN!!!!

sonofzeal
2010-03-07, 12:03 AM
Play E6, and don't allow the 2 or 3 really good healing things that still exist in that variant. Instantly gritty.
Alternative - play E6, and allow healing stuff, but block most at-will stuff. Warlock, DFA, Binder, Incarnum, ToB, etc. Without those, pretty much every character starts feeling the pressure fairly quickly. A good healer merely prolongs the inevitable, and attrition on the healer's spells works almost as well as mounting hp damage to make the Fighter start squirming.

Godskook
2010-03-07, 12:21 AM
Alternative - play E6, and allow healing stuff, but block most at-will stuff. Warlock, DFA, Binder, Incarnum, ToB, etc. Without those, pretty much every character starts feeling the pressure fairly quickly. A good healer merely prolongs the inevitable, and attrition on the healer's spells works almost as well as mounting hp damage to make the Fighter start squirming.

Actually, my main concerns were Draconic Aura - Vigor(Dragon Shamans and, depending on how your DM reads the feat, anyone who takes Draconic Aura) and Touch of Healing(I think you can still qualify in E6...yep, you can.) Even infinite healing to half-health is a potent resource booster.

Devoted Spirit would also be a concern, as well as anything that involves undead-type shenanigans(Shadow-sun ninja comes to mind), but from what I know of warlocks and DFAs, I can't see them being anti-gritty in any particular way.

Morandir Nailo
2010-03-07, 12:36 AM
Use this combat system (http://lankhmar.pbworks.com/GrimnGrittyCombat). It essentially looks like a version of Exalted's (all of White Wolf's?) combat system, adapted for d20. Very brutal. It's been a while since I played 3.x so I don't know how the various optimization tricks available would interact with it, but it seems like it would provide plenty of grit.

Mor

magic9mushroom
2010-03-07, 12:39 AM
It's easy to make D&D gritty and brutal. Start the game at level 1 and roll the CR of every encounter on a d20.

More seriously, the Bell Curve Rolls variant makes things more dependent on who's better rather than luck, and constantly chucking above-CR challenges at the party means the party's on the losing end.

faceroll
2010-03-07, 12:56 AM
Great, healing takes forever. You kill the monsters in the first dungeon chamber, withdraw for a few days to heal, then discover that something new/worse moved into that same first dungeon chamber. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Congratulations, you've killed off my character Reardon the Mage. Meet his brother Rordan the Mage. His cousin Rurdin the Mage. Send in the clones.

We have a solution for that. If you die in the game, you die in real life!

Curmudgeon
2010-03-07, 01:07 AM
All spells have saves and SR -- and there are no willing targets, or willfully failed saves. When magic can't provide an instant solution, D&D picks up a whole lot of grit.

Jastermereel
2010-03-07, 01:10 AM
Anytime the Massive Damage rule comes into play, the total damage able to be sustained is equal to the character's Con modifier x 2 (modifier not ability score). If this doesn't kill the character outright, Fort saves must be attempted at DC 25.
:smalleek:
Are you sure you don't mean score? Otherwise an average score of 10, with an average modifier of 0 could take...0 damage or have to roll a DC Fort Save or die outright. Even if everyone starts at first level with a Constitution of 18 (+4 modifier), any time they take 8 damage, they'd have to make a save that would be impossible to make unless they rolled a 20 on (or a 19 for those with a +2 to the save from their class).

For most players this would mean that the first time you take damage, you die. I suppose it's "gritty" but as far as fun is concerned (it is supposed to be a game after all) that rule alone would can swap the gr- for a sh-. :smallyuk:

sonofzeal
2010-03-07, 01:13 AM
Actually, my main concerns were Draconic Aura - Vigor(Dragon Shamans and, depending on how your DM reads the feat, anyone who takes Draconic Aura) and Touch of Healing(I think you can still qualify in E6...yep, you can.) Even infinite healing to half-health is a potent resource booster.

Devoted Spirit would also be a concern, as well as anything that involves undead-type shenanigans(Shadow-sun ninja comes to mind), but from what I know of warlocks and DFAs, I can't see them being anti-gritty in any particular way.
You're focusing too much on the healing, I think. Hitpoints are not a great way to impose grittiness on the system, as people function just fine at 1 hp (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CriticalExistenceFailure), and even at full health it's not too difficult to take someone out in a round or two with the wrong monster in the wrong position. Preventing cheap healing penalizes the melee characters and massively shortens their lifespans, but that just makes the game more lethal.

To me, grittiness is not about lethality (though it helps), it's about making the characters feel pressured, weak, threatened. It's about being down to your final clip of ammo, or you last good spell of the day, about running low on options and resources and reaching a state of desperation. It's about the fear of defeat, more than it is about actually killing off PCs.

Warlocks and DFAs, then, aren't gritty. They never run low on resources, and tend to have a fairly narrow "oh I'm fine for a few more encounters" -> "whoops I'm dead" window. Basically I find it's hard to make a Warlock or DFA feel desperate without killing them in the process. There's a few situations that can work (dozens of mook archers working together can give a Warlock that attrition feel as he struggles to kill them fast enough while his hp gradually gets wittled down), but in your average game I wouldn't expect it to happen often.

Similarly, Reserve Feats in general probably undermine grittiness a bit. Obviously what I gave before isn't a complete list.

JonestheSpy
2010-03-07, 01:39 AM
Because I prefer low-magic games and generally don't like the "healing magic is as common as band-aids" thing, my campaigns already have a lot of features the OP is talking about.

In my games though, healing magic exists, it's just not at all common. PC's can cast healing spells, but there's none of that "Don't bother using healing spells because you can just buy a wand and then use your spells to become Clericzila" nonsense.

Some other comments:



Alternate rule; there is no such thing as nonlethal damage.

I think this would be a BIG mistake. Nonlethal damage gives a DM all sorts of ways to go after players without arbitrarily killing their characters.



Healing, then, falls to the Heal skill rather than any external spell casting; aspects of the Concentration skill can be folded into the Heal skill for further difficulty.

My method is to rule that a high enough Heal roll will turn some lethal damage into nonlethal damage - the characters are still affected, but will be ready to go after some rest.



Monsters deal a greater amount of damage than usual. All monster damage dice are one dice up from previous entries; as per the Increased Damage By Size table.

i really can't think why this would be a good idea when you're eliminating most access to easy healing, unless your goal is killing characters.



Anytime the Massive Damage rule comes into play, the total damage able to be sustained is equal to the character's Con modifier x 2 (modifier not ability score). If this doesn't kill the character outright, Fort saves must be attempted at DC 25.

Um, you're saying a fighter with 20 Con and 100 hp can die if he's hit for 10? That seems pretty silly, especially since hit points are supposed to represent a number of factors, not just how much physical punishment you can take.



Death is on 0 hit points; you're not disabled any more, you are dead.

Again, that doesn't seem "griitty", that seems about killing characters. I mean, people receive injuries all the time that would be lethal without medical attention but perfectly survivable if treated properly.

Eldariel
2010-03-07, 02:09 AM
Because I prefer low-magic games and generally don't like the "healing magic is as common as band-aids" thing, my campaigns already have a lot of features the OP is talking about.

In my games though, healing magic exists, it's just not at all common. PC's can cast healing spells, but there's none of that "Don't bother using healing spells because you can just buy a wand and then use your spells to become Clericzila" nonsense.

...but wouldn't that just force players to keep healbots around? How does that work for low-magic?


Personal approach is VP/WP system; every hit can be instantly lethal, but it's unlikely. Right now, I'm playing a game that just bans all magic from PC use and it's rare in NPC use too. Works like a charm.

Really has the fantasy feel of exploring an unknown world and dealing with things beyond your understanding. And VP/WP system works great for non-magical healing; as VP specifically represent not-actual-damage but ability to avoid damage, it "heals" quick but actual WP damage takes long to heal.

In addition to that, scaling penalties for having taken damage fit nicely into this. Just removing magical healing at this point works great, or doing as VP/WP system suggests and dividing Heal-spells so the level-based bonuses go to WP and the rolls to VP; this way WP are healable with said spells, but slowly. Of course, since WP don't increase with level, they suddenly become very easy to heal in a couple of levels and thus I don't really like it.

The campaign journal in my signature outlines some of these houserules. I also like the ability for hits hitting WP (that is, dealing real damage) to deal limb damage. Makes for one-eyed, one-armed adventurers.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-07, 02:35 AM
HP isn't injury, HP is actual battle fatigue (not to be confused with the status effect). Don't mix the two up. "Healing" HP "damage" is actually removing that lesser fatigue.


Actual injury happens when you hit 0. Whatever hits you inflicts a life-threatening injury and renders you unconscious. Damage dealt to a character at or below 0 is also a physical injury (for those of use with Diehard or Rage Claws).

Eldariel
2010-03-07, 02:38 AM
HP isn't injury, HP is actual battle fatigue (not to be confused with the status effect). Don't mix the two up. "Healing" HP "damage" is actually removing that lesser fatigue.

Actual injury happens when you hit 0. Whatever hits you inflicts a life-threatening injury and renders you unconscious. Damage dealt to a character at or below 0 is also a physical injury (for those of use with Diehard or Rage Claws).

Only to a degree; e.g. poison is delivered through HP damage and regeneration negates HP damage so it's injury also. The system isn't consistent in that regard, one of the biggest strikes against the HP system in the first place.

VP/WP makes the distinction more clear; everything that deals damage to VP is mere grazing blows, while WP means real injury. Dropping to a lake of lava always deals WP damage, for example.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-07, 02:38 AM
HP isn't injury, HP is actual battle fatigue (not to be confused with the status effect). Don't mix the two up. "Healing" HP "damage" is actually removing that lesser fatigue.


Actual injury happens when you hit 0. Whatever hits you inflicts a life-threatening injury and renders you unconscious. Damage dealt to a character at or below 0 is also a physical injury (for those of use with Diehard or Rage Claws).

Nah, scratches are involved in HP > 0.