How slow of a spellcasting progression should a versatile at will caster get? [3.5]

[OldTrees]

I am trying to balance an at-will caster. Please help. Thank you in advance.


requires high Wis to cast spells
gets Cha modifier for spell DCs
Can cast spells spontaneously at will
If the learn spells as an wizard
Can choose form any list

(Fullcaster spell level -> unchanged) Ex. Magic Missile Wiz 1st -> 1st
(Halfcaster Pal/Rgr/Ass spell level -> x2) Ex. Holy Sword Pal 4th -> 8th

[Temotei]

I am trying to balance an at-will caster. Please help. Thank you in advance.


requires high Wis to cast spells
gets Cha modifier for spell DCs
Can cast spells spontaneously at will
If the learn spells as an wizard
Can choose form any list

(Fullcaster spell level -> unchanged) Ex. Magic Missile Wiz 1st -> 1st
(Halfcaster Pal/Rgr/Ass spell level -> x2) Ex. Holy Sword Pal 4th -> 8th

It'll never be balanced if you allow 9th level spells at will.

Time stop! *buffs* Time stop! *buffs* Time stop! *buffs* Time stop! *buffs*

:smallamused:

:smalleek:

Also, it seems kind of arbitrary that half-casting class spells get the shaft.

[OldTrees]

halfcaster spells get the shaft because most halfcasters get certain spells at lower spell level than the fullcasters (IIRC). This was exploited by the archivist.
I do not know if multiplying the level by 2 is fair (suggestions welcome). If it is on both lists they get the lower result which is usually the fullcaster list.


I completely agree that this class cannot get 9th level spells. What is the highest level of spells that is reasonably for them to be able to cast at 20th?

[Temotei]

Probably...4th - 6th. I'd go with the lower numbers if you post it on here. It's hard to say because of the wildly varying powers of spells in that range. Past that, though, spells start to completely destroy reality, defecating on its remains. Those spells aren't really an option.

Granted, enervation at will would be absolutely awesome and probably overpowered.

Half-casting spell lists do get spells earlier than a lot of full-casting classes, but that can be fixed by raising the spell level by one--maybe two, if you're really insecure about it unbalancing the game. I don't think you are, considering you're going for an at-will caster.

[OldTrees]

I am also planing on having there to be an ability check to cast spells

So if I go with
a 10% failure to cast 4th
a 50% failure to cast 5th
a 90% failure to cast 6th
at 20th level that would sound balance?

(Fullcaster spell level -> unchanged) Ex. Magic Missile Wiz 1st -> 1st
(Halfcaster Pal/Rgr/Ass spell level -> +1) Ex. Holy Sword Pal 4th -> 5th

Thank you.


By the way what would be a good estimate of ability modifiers as a function of level for this DAD caster class?

[Temotei]

I am also planing on having there to be an ability check to cast spells

So if I go with
a 10% failure to cast 4th
a 50% failure to cast 5th
a 90% failure to cast 6th
at 20th level that would sound balance?

(Fullcaster spell level -> unchanged) Ex. Magic Missile Wiz 1st -> 1st
(Halfcaster Pal/Rgr/Ass spell level -> +1) Ex. Holy Sword Pal 4th -> 5th

Thank you.


By the way what would be a good estimate of ability modifiers as a function of level for this DAD caster class?

Honestly, failure stinks. That's the reason casters don't wear armor (and the reason they need mage armor and such spells early on, as well as miss chances later on). A ten percent failure isn't so bad, but a ninety percent chance to do nothing for that round? I'd never use a 6th level spell. Or a 5th level spell, for that matter. There's no point, since you could get better effects from multiple lower-level spells. Sure, you have a chance to cast those buffs or effects faster, but you also have a chance of going slower or the same speed. Probability dictates that it will be the same speed or slower for 5th- and 6th-level spells.

Obviously, this is just a rough idea of the class, but seriously, don't do percent failures unless they're small--even then, I'm reluctant to say that's fun.

Ability check DC's should be determined by example and playtesting. The best examples would be favorable circumstances with 15 - 16 in the favorite attribute to start.

Example:
Level 11 human "x" wants to cast an empowered enervation. Example "x" started with 15 Intelligence, has raised it at the available levels (4, 8), and has bought an item raising Intelligence. Example "x" now has 21 Intelligence, effectively. This gives a +5 modifier.

DC's for the empowered enervation should be in the ballpark of DC 10 - 15, depending on how hard you want it to be for that caster to cast the spell, assuming failure means no cast spell. Of course, this would probably be based on spell level.

Actually, I would use a system where failure means a lesser effect, instead of outright failure. The example enervation would lose its metamagic and deal half the roll's negative levels. That means, at most, two negative levels. Using this system, you'd probably have to use a slightly higher DC than what you would use with the outright failure system.

[Latronis]

If you look at spell levels as half-HD (such as the sorc\fs\ss\warmage\beguiler etc except they start with 1st level and theres no 10th level) than half that is probably perfectly fine for at-wills in combat situations.

Ofc only having half the casting of everyone else is a little weaker even at will, so you might want to give them an extra ability with X\uses a day that can be used up for metamagic or the like (similiar to divine metamagic)

Or otherwise advances other aspects of the class (say 3\4HD BAB instead of half, all good saves etc)

[OldTrees]

Thank you both

@Temotei
For a reduced Failure mechanic:

If succeed -> Regular effect
If failed by X -> Shadow Effect 100%-10X%



@ Latronis
3/4 BAB and good saves are a good ideas

I was planing on them being able to substitute a modified will save to disbelieve instead of AC or saves as an immediate action to turn an attack into a shadow effect. (still need lots of thought on this though.)

Also I hope to give them the ability to create shadow objects (lots of thought and advice needed on this part. I failed twice at this before: The Hypothetical and the Deluded)

[Temotei]

If you look at spell levels as half-HD (such as the sorc\fs\ss\warmage\beguiler etc except they start with 1st level and theres no 10th level) than half that is probably perfectly fine for at-wills in combat situations.

Ofc only having half the casting of everyone else is a little weaker even at will, so you might want to give them an extra ability with X\uses a day that can be used up for metamagic or the like (similiar to divine metamagic)

Or otherwise advances other aspects of the class (say 3\4HD BAB instead of half, all good saves etc)

Base attack bonus is the last thing an at-will caster would want. Saves wouldn't be a bad thing though. Neither would hit dice.

I had an idea about an ability similar to the one you proposed, but instead of the metamagic factor, it would allow you to cast higher level spells. Using your suggestion as well, we could end up with something like this:
{table=head]Level|"Y" Ability Charges
1|1
2|1
3|2
4|2
5|2
6|3
7|3
8|3
9|4
10|4
11|4
12|5
13|5
14|5
15|6
16|6
17|6
18|7
19|7
20|7[/table]

One charge equals one level of metamagic increase, and two charges means an increase in actual spell level casting ability. An 15th-level caster could use six charges to gain a spell three levels higher than the maximum available, or they could spend four charges on quickening a spell.

Of course, that's just an idea. You might want to give a few more points as well.

[OldTrees]

I like the charge idea.
How would I fluff a X/day ability like that to be compatible with an at-will class?

Basic fluff of the class is: Member of the class exert their mental strengths (Wis[defensive]/Cha[offensive]) to impose an semi-real illusion of the world onto reality.

[Temotei]

I like the charge idea.
How would I fluff a X/day ability like that to be compatible with an at-will class?

Basic fluff of the class is: Member of the class exert their mental strengths (Wis[defensive]/Cha[offensive]) to impose an semi-real illusion of the world onto reality.

Just say they focus on their inner beings, letting it out in a previously unseen fury. Or something. It's hard to fluff something when we can't see it.

[OldTrees]

Focusing could work. I would need to have a reason why they can only refocus 1/day but that suspension of disbelief is common in D&D. Thanks.

Now all I need is a good estimate of ability modifier as a function of level.
Factors I need to factor in

Items of ability +2/+4/+6
Ability increases every 4HD split between Wis and Cha
Tomes/Wishes to give inherent bonuses


DAD modifiers as a function of level?
{table=head]Level|1st Ability|modifer|2nd Ability|modifier

1|
17|
3|
16|
3

4|
18|
4|
18|
4

5|
20|
5|
18|
4

7|
20|
5|
20|
5

8|
20|
5|
21|
5

9|
22|
6|
21|
5

11|
22|
6|
23|
6

12|
24|
7|
24|
7

20|
30|
10|
30|
10

[/table]

After 12th level I assume they would have both a Cloak +6 and a Periapt +6
I assume between 12th and 20th level two +5 tomes would be used and an additional +1 from HD would be added to each


When would they buy inherent bonuses?

[Latronis]

Base attack bonus is the last thing an at-will caster would want. Saves wouldn't be a bad thing though. Neither would hit dice.

It was more about throwing them some bones for giving up the highest levels of spells. You can reshape reality at will but you can't hit the broad side of a barn? Besides it's marginally useful depending on what you are facing\your spell list choices.

I like the charges idea too, just giving everyone metamagic may begin to seem like a copout. They really need to do something with the magic though to make lower level at-wills appealing or it'll never be used

[Temotei]

It was more about throwing them some bones for giving up the highest levels of spells. You can reshape reality at will but you can't hit the broad side of a barn? Besides it's marginally useful depending on what you are facing\your spell list choices.

I like the charges idea too, just giving everyone metamagic may begin to seem like a copout. They really need to do something with the magic though to make lower level at-wills appealing or it'll never be used

Agreed on all points.

[GoC]

One thing: Don't make this at will!
Otherwise entire cities are going to end up charmed and/or dominated and castles will be popping up overnight!
I'd recommend setting a limit of some sort. 20 spells per day per level? Can't use the same spell more than five times per day? Remove out of combat utility spells from his spell list?

[Temotei]

One thing: Don't make this at will!

That was my first thought, but if the OP wants to do it, it will be done, and I plan to help them accomplish that goal.


Otherwise entire cities are going to end up charmed and/or dominated and castles will be popping up overnight!

I've seen worse (better examples).


I'd recommend setting a limit of some sort. 20 spells per day per level?

Twenty spells per day per level is essentially at-will casting, no matter what level you are, unless your DM can justify setting you against forty encounters a day at first level.


Can't use the same spell more than five times per day?

Restricting the use of same-spell casting could be difficult to fluff, but I suppose that restriction would be...something.


Remove out of combat utility spells from his spell list?

Making another warmage, are we? They at least get eclectic learning, too...

I see your points, but if the OP wants this to be done, we'll just have to work that much harder at balancing it.

Playtesting is going to be needed. Definitely.

[Lysander]

How about requiring a longer casting time for higher level spells. Low level spells would be at wills, 9th level would still be at will but require hours to cast.

[Fortuna]

You could look to the Warlock for ideas of how powerful at-wills should be. Just throwing that out there.

[Lysander]

You could look to the Warlock for ideas of how powerful at-wills should be. Just throwing that out there.

What about making an arcane warlock, who gets to pick a small number of at will SLA from the sor/wiz spell list.

[OldTrees]

Limitations I was thinking of including


All spells are semireal illusions. Thus a will save (disbelief) will end effects for the disbeliever.
They can only focus on X spells at a time. X = A + B x level (X=3+2L?)
All spells have a maximum duration of Y rounds. Y = ECL


@Random Person
I am trying to make a Warlock with a more extensive list while making a Wizard that does not watch a clock to tell him when he can cast.

Since the goal was a synthesis of these two mechanic I hope reducing the level of spells achieved would help balance it.

[GoC]

Twenty spells per day per level is essentially at-will casting, no matter what level you are, unless your DM can justify setting you against forty encounters a day at first level.
That's the point.

[OldTrees]

What at-will tricks can you think of that would not be quelled by my three limitations? (that way I can add a 4th)

@ GoC

If twenty spells per day per level is balanced with at-will casting then why not just use at will casting?



@ Lysander I was thinking of having their spell progression advancing at less then half the rate of a wizard.
0th at 1st, 1st at 5th, 2nd at 9th, 3rd at 13th and 4th at 17th

with the option of

spending 10x the casting time to take a ten on the check (add a spell level)
spending 100x the casting time to take a twenty on the check (add two spell levels)

[Temotei]

That's the point.


If 20 spells per day per level is balanced with at will casting then why not just use at will casting?

Couldn't have said it better myself (except I would have spelled out twenty, added a hyphen in at-will...etc. because I'm a grammar pirinazinja).


What at-will tricks can you think of that would not be quelled by my three limitations? (that way I can add a 4th)

Wish and miracle could probably get around them if you're allowing 9th-level spells. Limited wish might be able to if you're allowing 7th-level spells.

[OldTrees]

The highest spell level they will be able to cast is 6th level with either a 90% failure rate or 100x the casting time.

Thanks for the grammar tip.

[erikun]

I would say start with the Bard's spells known. It's already capped at 6th level spells, and a smaller number of spells known that the Sorcerer.

Spell failure won't be a fun way to balance the class. You're randomly determining if you can't do anything that turn, with no way to improve it and no way to avoid it. Far better would be to simply increase the casting time. Full-round spellcasting for 4th and 5th spells, and up to 1 round spellcasting for 6th spells would really cut down on the spellcaster's mobility. Of course, this doesn't stop them from spamming Charm Person or Glitterdust all over the place.

[GoC]

If twenty spells per day per level is balanced with at-will casting then why not just use at will casting?
Because then charming cities, wiping out armies and completely breaking the economy without any effort whatsoever become much harder (and more in line with the norm).
This class might be just fine for an epic BBEG but for a PC who doesn't actively try to stay on the rails and has an int more than 8? You're going to get a broken game.

[Temotei]

Because then charming cities, wiping out armies and completely breaking the economy without any effort whatsoever become much harder (and more in line with the norm).
This class might be just fine for an epic BBEG but for a PC who doesn't actively try to stay on the rails and has an int more than 8? You're going to get a broken game.

Remembering twenty spells per level is so cumbersome though...it's better to just increase casting time, methinks. Perhaps increasing it the more they cast, so they can't completely abuse it.

Something like (for each level of spellcasting):
{table=head]Cast|Actions
1|Standard
2|Full-round
3|Full-round
4|Full-round
5|Two full-round
6|Two full-round
7|Two full-round
8|Three full-round
9|Three full-round
10|Three full-round[/table]

Don't just copy that though. Extensive playtesting will be needed before it can be properly gauged.

[OldTrees]

To summarize my thoughts as of now.

• requires high Wis (Wis Score = 10+Spel level) to cast spells
• gets Cha modifier for spell DCs
• Can cast spells spontaneously at will
• It learns spells as an wizard
• Can choose from any list (archivist does not count as a list)
(Fullcaster spell level -> unchanged) Ex. Magic Missile Wiz 1st -> 1st
(Halfcaster Pal/Rgr/Ass spell level -> +1) Ex. Holy Sword Pal 4th -> 5th


3/4 BAB and good saves


I was planning on them being able to substitute a modified will save to disbelieve instead of AC or saves as an immediate action to turn an attack into a shadow effect. (I still need lots of thought on this though.)

Also I hope to give them the ability to create shadow objects (I need lots of thought and advice on this part. I failed twice at this before: The Hypothetical and the Deluded)


Ability Check:
Deluded Level = ½ Class Level + ¼ ECL (modified from Initiator Level it ToB)
Ability Modifier: Either Wis (reactive) or Cha (active). Cha is used for Spells
Expected to both increase by +7 over 20 levels (from HD, Items and Wishes)
Trendline has a slope of a +4 increase per 10 levels
Progressive Illusion: (used to smooth the progression) +3 at 3rd level +3/5 class levels thereafter
(Borrowed from Advanced Bending class feature on brilliantgameologists.com http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1233.0)

1d20+Deluded Level + Ability Modifier + Progressive Delusion
vs
DC: 10+8xSpell Level

Success: The spell is cast
Failure: If a check fails the spell still goes off but at a reduced effectiveness. The spell becomes a Shadow Effect with a 10% reduced reality per point under the DC.
Take 10: By spending ten times the casting time they may take 10 on the check.
Take 20: By spending one hundred times the casting time they may take 20 on the check.

All spells gain a Will Save to disbelief that will end the effect for the disbeliever.
All spells have a maximum duration of 1 round / ECL
Only 3+twice class level spells can be maintained at one time.

[Latronis]

Generally i work out a hierarchy for choosing from spell lists. (or more accurately dictate which version they can use but in theory there is)

[Realms of Chaos]

I am trying to balance an at-will caster. Please help. Thank you in advance.


requires high Wis to cast spells
gets Cha modifier for spell DCs
Can cast spells spontaneously at will
If the learn spells as an wizard
Can choose form any list

(Fullcaster spell level -> unchanged) Ex. Magic Missile Wiz 1st -> 1st
(Halfcaster Pal/Rgr/Ass spell level -> x2) Ex. Holy Sword Pal 4th -> 8th

If this thing truly learns spells like a wizard (complete with "scribing"), you are suggesting a class that effectively gets every single spell of up to a certain spell level at will. There is apparently no cost for casting the spells and the only penalty is a bit of MAD.
If I understood properly, this class makes (approximately) 90% of all other classes worthless and is going to be tier 1. Even if you never get the higher spell levels, the tier system is based on adaptability more than power and having access to hundreds of splatbooks of spells lets you deal with pretty much any problem (to a greater or lesser extent) even if you are limited to low-powered spells. Surprisingly, there aren't many problems that can only be fixed with a high level spell.
Putting that aside, the biggest problem that you're going to have is with the first 4 levels or so of this class. If your guy starts with level 1 spells at will, it will have an advantage over both the wizard and the sorcerer and less optimized members of almost any class. If your guy starts with 0 level spells, you'd probably need to give some other class feature at 1st level to balance things out, something that would likely make this class even more powerful in the long run. If you delay casting until level 4, you will similarly need to put something in those first 3 levels, giving this guy an unecessary boost.

If I were trying to design the class, I'd have it so that your spells start with spell slots per day when you first get them but that they become unlimited as time goes on. In fact, this is what I'd suggest as a progression list

Unlimited class
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th

1st|u|1

2nd|u|2

3rd|u|2

4th|u|u|1

5th|u|u|1

6th|u|u|2

7th|u|u|2

8th|u|u|u|1

9th|u|u|u|1

10th|u|u|u|2

11th|u|u|u|2

12th|u|u|u|u|1

13th|u|u|u|u|1

14th|u|u|u|u|2

15th|u|u|u|u|2

16th|u|u|u|u|u|1

17th|u|u|u|u|u|1

18th|u|u|u|u|u|2

19th|u|u|u|u|u|2

20th|u|u|u|u|u|u[/table]

u= unlimited uses per day.

On top of that, I would put a hard rule limiting players to 2 spells known per level. Lastly, give this guy a bad bab, a d4 HD, cast all spells as arcane, and give no other class features and you've got a class to your basic qualifications that isn't that powerful.

Edit: I didn't see that you were taking this in the direction of shadowy magic. :smalltongue:
In that case, there is one idea that I've had floating in the back of my mind for awhile that may appeal to you.
The results of all spells, other than checks failed/succeeded due to bonuses/penalties, movement taken, and knowledge gained are temporary, lasting 1+Wis modifier rounds. After that time, a summoned wall vanishes, healed hit points are lost, damage or death resulting from spells is undone, ect. (even for instantaneous spells). In addition, you can only maintain a number of spells at once equal to your Wisdom modifier (or perhaps your Charisma modifier). You can "dismiss" a spell's effects early as a move action.

Edit Edit: I just a close look at your idea and saw that you are proposing pretty much the exact same thing (with a couple of differences). From now on, I need to read more carefully. :smallredface:

[OldTrees]

@ Realms of Chaos
I like your idea about tying Wis and Cha into the limitations.


Max duration of 3xCha modifier rounds
Can maintain 2xWis modifier spells at a time

[Latronis]

Can maintain 2xWis modifier spells at a time

What does that mean?

[OldTrees]

@Latronis

A limitation I am thinking of imposing on the class was that it can only have twice its wisdom modifier in spells active at a time.

So at 1st level with a wisdom of 16-17 they can have 6 active spells (number of spells active includes instantaneous spells as they are cast).
Ex. 1 Ray of Frost per turn, 3 castings of Resistance, 2 Light spells and a Detect Magic spell active. If they want to cast Detect Poison as well they will have to forsake one of their other spells.

This was meant to prevent using every buff know or charming a whole city.

[Latronis]

@Latronis

A limitation I am thinking of imposing on the class was that it can only have twice its wisdom modifier in spells active at a time.

So at 1st level with a wisdom of 16-17 they can have 6 active spells (number of spells active includes instantaneous spells as they are cast).
Ex. 1 Ray of Frost per turn, 3 castings of Resistance, 2 Light spells and a Detect Magic spell active. If they want to cast Detect Poison as well they will have to forsake one of their other spells.

This was meant to prevent using every buff know or charming a whole city.

oic

well that bookkeeping is going to get annoying.

[OldTrees]

oic

well that bookeeping is going to get annoying.

About 20 spells at 20th level? Not so hard to keep track of. Most of those would be standard operating procedure before long.

Additionally that is a maximum number that can be active. I cannot imagine many of them (from an RP aspect) pausing to refresh that many spells so regularly. Most likely it will only near the limit during precombat buffing.