PDA

View Full Version : Skill systems - SWSE vs 4E



Katana_Geldar
2010-03-06, 11:49 PM
Aside from basic combat mechanics, the skill system is where SWSE and 4E have the most in common. They both combine and streamline skills from previous editions and function in similar ways in using skills...

BUT, there are parts where Star Wars works much better than 4E to the point where I am considering homebrewing the skill systems along SE lines. Specifically I am speaking of how many trained skills are assigned to particular classes.

SE is simple, the beefier you are the less skills you have and vice-versa. I looked at it in detail, (http://gmgeldar.wordpress.com/2009/12/12/a-skill-challenge-by-any-other-name-still-needs-a-little-thought/) and tried to apply this logic to 4E and it didn't work. Is there any logic to the number of trained skills per class?

http://gmgeldar.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/table1.jpg

There's also the fact that the number of skills a class has in SE is not static, even at character creation as it's tied to your intelligence modifier. So you can get more skills if you up your Int.

Anymore thoughts? I think the skill system is one of the better mechanics in these systems, providing it makes sense of course.

Vitruviansquid
2010-03-07, 12:06 AM
My gut instinct was to say that skill challenges mattered so little in the game of DnD 4e that it didn't matter how many skills each class could train, but that's just stupid because they would then just give every class the same number of skills and be done with it. Neither could you say that some classes are simply more skilled than others by fluff because then why aren't wizards top tier while warlocks are? Aren't wizards actually really smart people?

So.

:smallconfused:

Katana_Geldar
2010-03-07, 12:11 AM
That's my impression, they just didn't care. And if you look at what I said in the blog, I try and use the squishy and beefy bell curve, but it just does not work.

It does make sense for a bard, a ranger and a rogue to be highly skilled though

FTR, the chapter of Skill Challenges in Galaxy of Intrigue seriously tops what DMG and DMG2 say on the matter.

Grynning
2010-03-07, 12:34 AM
I will say that I think 4E scales a bit better. The +5 from skill focus in Saga makes it a bit too good of a feat, although with the absence of Piloting and Use the Force I suppose it wouldn't be as strong.

TheCountAlucard
2010-03-07, 12:41 AM
I will say that I think 4E scales a bit better. The +5 from skill focus in Saga makes it a bit too good of a feat, although with the absence of Piloting and Use the Force I suppose it wouldn't be as strong.Well, a solution I came up with for that was to slap a character-level-based prerequisite on Skill Focus; it's kinda bad to have a UTF modifier of +30 at level four, after all. :smalleek:

KillianHawkeye
2010-03-07, 01:25 AM
I think it's because Star Wars and D&D have different traditions for which characters have a lot of skills. In Star Wars you can get away with "Worse at fighting = better at skills" partly because there are so few classes compared to D&D. Also, in a Sci-Fi setting the people are usually assumed to have a similar baseline for education, whereas in D&D you are more likely to have people like barbarians and fighters who don't care about "book learning" and don't develop as many skills as others. That's my guess, anyway.

RandomLunatic
2010-03-07, 01:25 AM
The SWSE Soldier gets three trained skills...

TheCountAlucard
2010-03-07, 01:33 AM
I think it's because Star Wars and D&D have different traditions for which characters have a lot of skills.That's not a bad point.


In Star Wars you can get away with "Worse at fighting = better at skills" partly because there are so few classes compared to D&D.Again, pretty good point. On that note, I'd much rather that 4e had fewer classes than SWSE had more.


Also, in a Sci-Fi setting the people are usually assumed to have a similar baseline for education, whereas in D&D you are more likely to have people like barbarians and fighters who don't care about "book learning" and don't develop as many skills as others.I kinda disagree with this last point, though; the Galaxy, even at its best times, was hardly ever "unified," and you're just as likely to have an unschooled character in SWSE as you are in D&D.

Caewil
2010-03-07, 02:38 AM
It's not as simple as an inverse relation between the number of skills and hit points. You have to factor in talents and class skill lists as well.

The scoundrel has fewer HP than the scout but one less skill; the difference is that the scout's skill list just isn't as good. They get a lot of skills which are situationally useful and a few general ones.

The scoundrel gets a selection of the best skills in the game. All of the social and tech skills plus acrobatics (the best combat skill after UtF). Then they get talents like Knack and Fool's Luck to make them even better at the skills they do select.

The difference between SWSE and 4E is that in the former the skill system is a major component of the game and has uses both in and out of combat. As such, it is also plays a significant part in game balance. In 4E, skills feel as though they were tacked onto the combat system at the last minute with scant attention paid to how they would be used.

PersonMan
2010-03-07, 02:49 AM
Well, a solution I came up with for that was to slap a character-level-based prerequisite on Skill Focus; it's kinda bad to have a UTF modifier of +30 at level four, after all. :smalleek:

This.

I made a level 6 character who was able to do insane things due to a grand total of +42 to UTF checks, and being completely optimized for Force powers.

Longcat
2010-03-07, 04:33 AM
This.

I made a level 6 character who was able to do insane things due to a grand total of +42 to UTF checks, and being completely optimized for Force powers.

A quick question: How do you guys do it? Can you take Skill Focus more than once for any skill? If not, I don't really see how the difference between +37 or +42 really matters.

TheCountAlucard
2010-03-07, 06:39 AM
A quick question: How do you guys do it?Away from books, but I'm sure the right combination of stuff can manage it. There's a KoTOR race that gets a pretty obscene bonus to UTF; if you pump up your Charisma, are trained in UTF, take Skill Focus, and start off as an old fogey, I'm pretty sure the number gets fairly close to it...


Can you take Skill Focus more than once for any skill?Again, away from book, but I doubt it.


If not, I don't really see how the difference between +37 or +42 really matters.Sometimes the margin by which you beat a skill check's DC can make a fair bit of difference, especially for Force powers.

Longcat
2010-03-07, 08:31 AM
Which one do you mean? The Draethos gain +5, but only for Telepathy. Other than that, the best I could come up with is:
+5 (Cha 20) +5 (trained) +5 (Skill Focus) +3 (Level6) = +18.

Still good, but nothing spectacular. Even if you're very old, it adds a single digit bonus, at most. Am I missing something here?

KillianHawkeye
2010-03-07, 06:07 PM
I kinda disagree with this last point, though; the Galaxy, even at its best times, was hardly ever "unified," and you're just as likely to have an unschooled character in SWSE as you are in D&D.

I might be wrong on that. I just meant that I figure an unschooled character in Star Wars has a greater field of knowledge than an unschooled character in D&D. Maybe that's not true, but I tend to think of Sci-Fi settings as having more in common with the real world than Fantasy settings, which lets me fill in the gaps a little bit.