Need help taking down a powerful character [Archive]

desmond1323

2010-03-07, 02:35 AM

OK. So, in one of the several games I DM, one of my players has created this ridiculously strong character that I just can NOT beat. Not without going straight overboard.

I mean...things that are totally overpowered for the rest of the party come off as a cake walk for him.

Now, as far as optimization goes....he's very well built. Now, the others are not...they're not optimized, certainly (well, maybe the dread necromancer to an extent), but they aren't the worst builds ever either.

OK, I'ma list all the information I have off him at the moment...
Level 6 Monk/ Level 10 Psionic Fist.
Abilities (magic/base)
Str- 20/16
Dex-22/18
Con-16/16
Int-14/14
Wis-24/18
Cha-9/9

Here's the biggest problem: AC- 40, touch 30.
Bracers of armor +8, ring of prot +3, ring of nat arm +2, and the Dex bonus.

How do I get through this reasonably?

Feats:
Improved: Unarmed, grapple, initiative, trip, nat weapon
Speed of thought, combat reflexes, flying kick, up the walls, expanded knowledge, overchannel, and wild talent.

His BAB is 10, but he hits with +15. He has three hits (maybe four now, he just leveled), and does like...4d8, I believe? I know he hits as a creature a size category larger.

He can shapechange to all sorts of things, grow up to two sizes larger as well.

All his saves are good (it's rare for him to hit below a 35...40s are typical, below 30 almost unheard of), so I can't exploit that.

He nearly made mincemeat (technically, he forgot he woulda got another attack, so he should have) out of tonight's boss of a level 18 lich (who started off with a Wail of the Banshee that killed everyone but him straight up).

How do I properly challenge him without making the other characters feel ridiculously weak?

magic9mushroom

2010-03-07, 02:39 AM

Sinfire Titan

2010-03-07, 02:41 AM

Hit him with Solid Fog?

Really, the problem you are having is this character is a mildly optimized Tier 3 or a heavily optimized Tier 4 (likely the former, due to his saves being his focus) while everyone else is below that.

The solution is to not throw singular enemies at him. Out-tempo him with superior numbers and the action economy. A single CR 16 Dragon is going to get it's ass handed to it by him and his party. 5 CR 16 Warblades, PsiWars, or even a few casually optimized Rangers will give him trouble.

Ranged combat also helps. His unarmed strike is meaningless when every enemy is flying and pelting him with Scorching Rays/Orbs of Force.

desmond1323

2010-03-07, 02:48 AM

The solution is to not throw singular enemies at him. Out-tempo him with superior numbers and the action economy.

Mostly this is what I figured...the adventures we've run with this character has been really big on super poweful singular creatures...I've just not had a chance to try something else. Good to see that thought backed up though.

Ranged combat also helps. His unarmed strike is meaningless when every enemy is flying and pelting him with Scorching Rays/Orbs of Force.

Another thing I was thinking...mostly on the flying aspect. Far too many times, I'd finally start doing damage to him when he'd use whatever Psionic ability and take all the damage he's taken and put it right back on the enemy. Oh, sorry...that 40ish damage Orb of Force you hit me with? You take that back, with 10 extra on top, and I get healed.

This same adventure was also, sadly, in a cave...not a lot of room.

Once again, good to see this suspicion of mine backed up...can't wait to give it another go, with these things a little more in my favor.

Also, shoulda mentioned...No ToB stuff. Currently the one book I disallow.

desmond1323

2010-03-07, 02:50 AM

Also, looks like he has an awful lot of magic items.

Well, that's what happens when the level 15 starting gold is....whatever it is. Some really high amount...and you don't have to spend any on armor or weapons.

Sinfire Titan

2010-03-07, 02:54 AM

Another thing I was thinking...mostly on the flying aspect. Far too many times, I'd finally start doing damage to him when he'd use whatever Psionic ability and take all the damage he's taken and put it right back on the enemy. Oh, sorry...that 40ish damage Orb of Force you hit me with? You take that back, with 10 extra on top, and I get healed.

This is where dispelling comes in. Or just being out of range (IIRC< SHare Pain, Forced, is Close).

This same adventure was also, sadly, in a cave...not a lot of room.

Once again, good to see this suspicion of mine backed up...can't wait to give it another go, with these things a little more in my favor.

Also, shoulda mentioned...No ToB stuff. Currently the one book I disallow.

You really should use it, even if it's NPC-only for the time being. It honestly makes a lot of encounters a lot easier to run (just replace the standard Orc Warrior's feat with Martial Study and you'll see what I mean). It also makes for challenging encounters.

Infernum

2010-03-07, 02:57 AM

I am always a fan of a monster that has an antimagic(Or anti Psionic field if those are a problem, but it appears that the main thing is his magic items that are messing with you.) field around it that loves to enter into melee. Have the rest of the party engaged with fighting its minions or partners or what have you and this mean son of a b**** goes straight for the monk, preferable something that does not need to use magic, is moderately hard to hit, has lots of hit points and deals decent damage so as to make it a fight but still enough to kill him possibly unless you want him dead then just make it a mean damage dealer.

One i used once was an antimagic shrouded half-fiend minotaur monk, took out my problem character with out to much trouble. The monster was of course part of the plot and had a reason to be there, hell he was even a recurring villain for a period of time before the characters cast him into a well of many worlds to be done with him, little did they know he landed in Minauros. There he made a deal forged of hate and malice that morphed him from the neutral good human into the Lawful evil engine of destruction. Then he was summoned by an old servant of his whom he contacted and began to hunt them down.

Player straightened up and flew right after that, mostly cause his soul was dragged off into hell screaming. But everything had a reason for happening and they even had a fair fight and chance to kill him.

Or magic missiles always work as well, lots of magic missiles.

ShneekeyTheLost

2010-03-07, 03:03 AM

You want to screw him up? Easy, peasy.

Psionic Fist has poor Fort saves. He's looking like he only has a Fort save of +11, and no poison immunity. Forcecage + Cloudkill. Hell, even Stinking Cloud would hurt him badly.

Set up a Kabal of Dragonwrought kobold sorcerers... and use Wings of Cover/Wings of Fury to make him regret his decision. Quickened True Strike + Orb of X also works to blow him up quickly.

Kelb_Panthera

2010-03-07, 03:03 AM

desmond1323

2010-03-07, 03:03 AM

This is where dispelling comes in. Or just being out of range (IIRC< SHare Pain, Forced, is Close).

Thus the flying comment I made...that was the first solution I had come up with for future reference. Perfectly justifiable seeing as the lich got away and will come back prepared for these PCs, heh.

You really should use it, even if it's NPC-only for the time being. It honestly makes a lot of encounters a lot easier to run (just replace the standard Orc Warrior's feat with Martial Study and you'll see what I mean). It also makes for challenging encounters.

I've been tempted to use it for NPCs and encounters....but I dislike using something I won't let my players use. I dislike the book. I dislike the idea of the book. I like what martial classes I have to work with. Just...it's hard to explain, but no ToB for me, thanks.

Thanks to all for the current suggestions, though. Definitely giving me a relief for future runnings of this party....whenever that is, this party may be retired now, heh.

AslanCross

2010-03-07, 03:04 AM

Tire him out. It's difficult to run psionic characters out of PP, but it's happened more than once in my game.

desmond1323

2010-03-07, 03:05 AM

um.... unless I'm missing something, perhaps more equipment, or perhaps feats I'm unaware of, the numbers you posted only make 35 for his normal ac, and 25 for his touch. I can guess that the class bonus has been neglected for another point or two, but otherwise..... I guess what I'm trying to say is that you should double check his numbers and make sure everything is in order.

I will, but I strongly doubt that. The groups I play and run don't do stuff like this...and he's been playing a fair while, so I'd be ridiculously surprised if he had made some error. But who knows, we're all human, it happens. I'll double check next time.

desmond1323

2010-03-07, 03:07 AM

Tire him out. It's difficult to run psionic characters out of PP, but it's happened more than once in my game.

This is actually what I was hoping to do...and it never happened. Adventure ended and he still had about 30ish left. Though, once again, this one focused on singular strong creatures. Something I'll rectify next time. Maybe fix up my homebrew True Kobold race...they fight in large, well disciplined groups. Sounds like a good time to me!

Kelb_Panthera

2010-03-07, 03:09 AM

just saw the thing on amf enemies. Both the beholder (MM1) and the astral dreadnought (MotP) produce a shaped amf that can shut down your troublesome character and still leave the other characters at full power as long as the group fans out.

Thurbane

2010-03-07, 03:10 AM

Enemy caster/wand wielder with a good ranged attack bonus, and ray of Dizziness. Cutting him down to a single action with no save will help cut him down to size, although you'll need something to follow up with. The more "no save" spells you can hit him with, the better.

AslanCross

2010-03-07, 03:14 AM

This is actually what I was hoping to do...and it never happened. Adventure ended and he still had about 30ish left. Though, once again, this one focused on singular strong creatures. Something I'll rectify next time. Maybe fix up my homebrew True Kobold race...they fight in large, well disciplined groups. Sounds like a good time to me!

How much PP has he got?

PhoenixRivers

2010-03-07, 03:16 AM

BobVosh

2010-03-07, 03:18 AM

Ok, he is hard to hit and kill. Lets look at his damage: 4D8+5 to 10. Lets assume 7. 3 hits, if they all hit, average 87 total. Straight Barbarian 16: has about 2x the hit points with the con bonus. Damage: 2D6 (assuming greatsword). Str 28 before raging (18, +4 from levels, +6 item) 34 after raging. So a +12. +28 to hit, for 2D6+18 before magic weapon bonuses, and the barbarians baby: power attack. Sac BAB to equal the monks +15 to hit: -13 to hit, +26 Damage. 2D6+44. Average of 51. 3 swings as well. 153 damage, just shy of 2x the monks.

This is obviously leaving out huge chunks of build and gear. I noticed you said "this ridiculously strong character that I just can NOT beat." You are probably look at this the wrong way, does his character really threaten your encounters? Does he kung fu the fights down without a challenge, or is his character just hard to kill?

I missed the lich thing: A monk is one of the classes I feel work very, very well against a lich. Good saves prevent it from doing most of its stuff. He can actually over come its DR with his primary weapon (the optimized martial weapons are slashing, not bludgeoning) High touch ac helps against most other things the lich throws. If he HAD died though, you would have had a TPK.

desmond1323

2010-03-07, 03:19 AM

How much PP has he got?

Um...trying to think....70s or 80s? Somehwere there abouts, if I recall correctly.

desmond1323

2010-03-07, 03:23 AM

You are probably look at this the wrong way, does his character really threaten your encounters? Does he kung fu the fights down without a challenge, or is his character just hard to kill?

*grins* Both. Heh, I think the best I ever knocked him down was...half-ish HP?

See, the sad thing here is when the party was fighting a disabled teratomorph (no reality warping abilities)...and he decided he wanted to fight it. The thing could hit him easily enough for...20-40ish damage, but when the monk was drained too low he'd just transfer the damage back to the ooze.

Anyway, the point is...when the morph hit, and the monk failed a fort (by one, 28 on a DC 29), I rolled a 20 on my d20 check...this is absorption, the character is consumed, instantly killed, and the ooze gains 1 HD.

Picture combined player reactions (though the monk's player just laughed):
Dead silence. Wide eyes. And first words: "Well, we're ****ed. That's TPK right there."

So the party feels he's their best damage dealer. ...though debatedly, they're a little hard on themselves, heh.

Edit: Forgot to say...he was saved by realizing that the ability he had just used gave him extra Fort, so he didn't really die, heh.

BobVosh

2010-03-07, 03:25 AM

I'm just saying if the monk is outshining the party in a combat, the party is doing something terribly, terribly wrong. What are their builds, or close approximations? Throwing good gear to weaker characters is a good way to allow you to make higher level fights that threaten everyone.

*edit* The monk seems to realize a lot of things just afterwords...I don't know the player but one person I knew at a gaming store did this a lot when he was cheating. Humorously he was playing a psionic monk in that game...

desmond1323

2010-03-07, 03:29 AM

Don't know specifics of their builds offhand.

One is 15 (now 16) Druid. Another is 15 (also now 16) Dread Necromancer. And the last is...I guess still an 11 Rogue, but is a Doppleganger.

As far as optimization? Probably not done as well as the Monk, sure. But they certainly aren't broken builds or anything.

As far as magic items...they all had level 15 starting gold, so that's not all that comparitive a problem really.

Edit for BobVosh's edit: Naw, he's just dealing with a lot of numbers. Think of Durkon....sometimes, you just forget a few numbers. He's definitely not a cheater.

ShneekeyTheLost

2010-03-07, 03:30 AM

Toss critters which attack his PP pool instead. There's a few powers which do well to sap a PP pool quickly. One dispel magic later, and he's in for a world of hurt.

The Druid should be going Fleshraker + Venomblast for insane damage output that makes the Monk look pathetic, with better AC, attack bonuses, and in general, just plain better...

Optimystik

2010-03-07, 03:30 AM

desmond1323

2010-03-07, 03:31 AM

Toss critters which attack his PP pool instead. There's a few powers which do well to sap a PP pool quickly. One dispel magic later, and he's in for a world of hurt.

See, this is probably another factor which I should have mentioned...this is the first I've had to deal with psionics. Granted, this was a premade adventure that didn't have any psionic enemies in it...but for future activities, I definitely want to look into it, and use creatures that can match him psionically.

ShneekeyTheLost

2010-03-07, 03:32 AM

To those saying Forcecage, I can't imagine what you expect it to do. If the DM uses the "solid walls" version, then stinking cloud/cloudkill etc. can't touch him in there anyway. If he uses the "bars of force" version, he can use Compression and walk right out of it. With both versions, he can Dimension Swap to toss an ally in there instead (handy with the "walls" version - saving a weaker ally, while remaining in the fight himself), or Dimension Slide/Door to just leave - and those are just from the base Psywar list, with no CPsi or Expanded Knowledge.

Dimension Slide/Door/etc... requires Line of Sight and Line of Effect, both of which are blocked by Forcecage

You go Cloudkill, Celerity, Forcecage (solid version). Now he's trapped inside a forcecage, with a cloudkill, and can't get out.

Optimystik

2010-03-07, 03:36 AM

Dimension Slide/Door/etc... requires Line of Sight and Line of Effect, both of which are blocked by Forcecage

No, the walls are invisible - you still have line of sight. LoS is all you need to slide/door, not line of effect.

With Dimension Door you don't even need that - you just need to visualize where you want to end up, or even just think of a direction.

BobVosh

2010-03-07, 03:36 AM

Druids aren't terrific damage dealers unless you know what you are doing, so not too surprising. Dread Necromancers can be amazing if you spend time learning the undead you should raise. Rogues are rogues. Sneak attack and great.

As for gear I wasn't suggesting that you were currently undergearing them. I was suggesting you overgear the others. Especially easy to do as the monk won't want anything that helps the others.

*edit*

See, this is probably another factor which I should have mentioned...this is the first I've had to deal with psionics. Granted, this was a premade adventure that didn't have any psionic enemies in it...but for future activities, I definitely want to look into it, and use creatures that can match him psionically.

This raised one warning flag: your manifester level is how many PP you can spend a round. It is surprising how many people miss this.

PhoenixRivers

2010-03-07, 03:36 AM

Dimension Slide/Door/etc... requires Line of Sight and Line of Effect, both of which are blocked by Forcecage

You go Cloudkill, Celerity, Forcecage (solid version). Now he's trapped inside a forcecage, with a cloudkill, and can't get out.

DD/etc do not require LOE. They are astral travel, and explicitly are called as being able to bypass stationary force effects.

Still, A True-Strike Maximized enervation from hiding will do a lot to mitigate.

ShneekeyTheLost

2010-03-07, 03:37 AM

DD/etc do not require LOE. They are astral travel, and explicitly are called as being able to bypass stationary force effects.

Still, A True-Strike Maximized enervation from hiding will do a lot to mitigate.

Er... Force effects block astral. Where does it explicitly state this?

Also, by level 16? It's called Dimensional Lock

Optimystik

2010-03-07, 03:38 AM

Er... Force effects block astral. Where does it explicitly state this?

No, they block ethereal, not astral. They explicitly do NOT block astral - read Forcecage again.

desmond1323

2010-03-07, 03:40 AM

Druids aren't terrific damage dealers unless you know what you are doing, so not too surprising. Dread Necromancers can be amazing if you spend time learning the undead you should raise. Rogues are rogues. Sneak attack and great.

As for gear I wasn't suggesting that you were currently undergearing them. I was suggesting you overgear the others. Especially easy to do as the monk won't want anything that helps the others.

*shrug*
As for Druids not being good damage dealers, a little bit of luck and the Spell Compendium will go a long way to fix that...at least in any games I've participated in. Granted, the SC was locked in a room, out of use tonight...sooooo that didn't help. Granted, it's good the lich didn't have access to it too...so, eh.

Edit: About the manifester level, if once again you're suggesting he's either cheating or missing a rule about something....I seriously doubt it. Though I will give a read through the psionic stuff next chance I get to familiarize myself with the stuff and make 100% sure that stuff like that isn't happening. Better safe than sorry.

ShneekeyTheLost

2010-03-07, 03:42 AM

No, they block ethereal, not astral. They explicitly do NOT block astral - read Forcecage again.

By level 16, Dimension Lock (the area effect version) solves this problem, and lasts days/level. Drop it down before the PC's get there. Then surprise them as they find they cannot 'port.

Optimystik

2010-03-07, 03:46 AM

By level 16, Dimension Lock (the area effect version) solves this problem, and lasts days/level. Drop it down before the PC's get there. Then surprise them as they find they cannot 'port.

a) It's dispellable and b) is only 20ft. per casting. Are you going to cover the entire area in them?

And if you do that, the BBEG can't escape/summon backup either.

ShneekeyTheLost

2010-03-07, 03:49 AM

a) It's dispellable and b) is only 20ft. per casting. Are you going to cover the entire area in them?

And if you do that, the BBEG can't escape/summon backup either.

It's not like it isn't going to be lasting for over two weeks So yea, one per day... should just about blanket any battleground.

Summons suck. Escape is via a more mundane back door.

Once you take out the monk, the rest of the party gets demoralized, and becomes easier to deal with.

To dispel it, first you must know it is there. And go ahead, waste turns dispelling the Dimension Lock... I'll be returning fire with something a bit more... deadly

PhoenixRivers

2010-03-07, 03:49 AM

a) It's dispellable and b) is only 20ft. per casting. Are you going to cover the entire area in them?

And if you do that, the BBEG can't escape/summon backup either.

Yes he can. Dim Lock is easy to bypass when you're a caster and know it's coming. Greater Spell Immunity, for example, can render you immune to it.

ShneekeyTheLost

2010-03-07, 03:50 AM

Yes he can. Dim Lock is easy to bypass when you're a caster and know it's coming. Especially when you're the caster who cast it.

Also, you can leave 5' 'holes' in strategic locations (for the BBEG) to step in and vanish from. As the party has no way of knowing where these are, they cannot take advantage of them as easily.

Optimystik

2010-03-07, 03:51 AM

To dispel it, first you must know it is there. And go ahead, waste turns dispelling the Dimension Lock... I'll be returning fire with something a bit more... deadly

The rest of the party is clearly useless anyway, why shouldn't they be preventing the monk from being trapped with some dispels?

Yes he can. Dim Lock is easy to bypass when you're a caster and know it's coming. Especially when you're the caster who cast it.

Well, I guess he could stand in the one square that he hasn't locked or something, and hope he doesn't need to move.

PhoenixRivers

2010-03-07, 03:52 AM

Well, I guess he could stand in the one square that he hasn't locked or something, and hope he doesn't need to move.

Or hit himself with greater spell immunity, and ignore the entire effect.

CelesTial

2010-03-07, 03:55 AM

Rob him.
Deprive him of those items, or negate their effect. That is what I tend to do when I run games where I want to weaken characters. Then I find the biggest, baddest boss possible and giggle like a mad man.

Optimystik

2010-03-07, 03:56 AM

Or hit himself with greater spell immunity, and ignore the entire effect.

What's to stop the level 16 party buffing their monk friend with the same spell?

Or dispelling the locks, dispelling the GSI from the big bad, doing anything to actually help, etc.

Dhavaer

2010-03-07, 03:59 AM

Er... Force effects block astral. Where does it explicitly state this?

Also, by level 16? It's called Dimensional Lock

Force effects block ethereal. The astral plane is not coterminous and isn't affected by anything on the material.

PhoenixRivers

2010-03-07, 04:10 AM

What's to stop the level 16 party buffing their monk friend with the same spell?

Or dispelling the locks, dispelling the GSI from the big bad, doing anything to actually help, etc.

Each of these actions COSTS something.

At level 16? Punching an AC of 40 should be easier than kicking a kitten.

Elemental Monoliths, Dragons, pretty much any big beefy is going to be able to hit AC 40 on a roll of 2-5.

Yes, these effects can be dispelled, which costs actions. That's called Teamwork.

Yes, it's possible to buff spell immunity on the monk, if they know to select Dimensional Lock as one of the spells. They only get 4 or so.

These aren't saying "oh my god the monk/psywar is unstoppable".

They're saying "oh my god the party's working as a team to overcome obstacles".

If that's the problem? You've got a good party.

In addition, there are backup ways to get out. BBEG casts a burrow spell, enters the floor, and teleports out.

Let me make something clear: No plan is foolproof. Just because a means can be found to overcome it does not make the whole plan crap and not even worth thinking about.

And if a plan is foolproof? It's not an encounter, it's a PC deathtrap or Railroading. Using those is generally the mark of bad DMing.

Myou

2010-03-07, 04:13 AM

I'm surprised that no-one has suggested that the OP just tell the player he's overpowered in the group, and ask him to rebuild his character. That's what I'd do.

PhoenixRivers

2010-03-07, 04:14 AM

I'm surprised that no-one has suggested that the OP just tell the player he's overpowered in the group, and ask him to rebuild his character. That's what I'd do.

Likely because I don't feel his character is. A druid, by virtue of being a druid, can, in one day, outshine that, by selecting a new wildshape form and selecting different spells.

PinkysBrain

2010-03-07, 04:15 AM

grow up to two sizes larger as well.
He should do 3d8 base (assuming he has Improved Natural Attack) and 6d8 with double expansion. To get +15 to attack he already needs a fully augmented offensive precognition, so I assume that's usually his goto buff?

In that case without other buffs he would be doing 3d8*+5+5 = 23 damage on a hit. A rakshasha is going to be wholly unimpressed by that (8 damage after DR). Try something with DR piercing or slashing next?

BTW, if you hate your players enough to open up with wail of the banshee when they aren't death warded you might as well have opened with something which would catch the monk as well ... hell, if you had given him boots of temporal acceleration he could have gone for wail of the banshee followed by boots, followed by acid/solid-fog and dimensional lock on whatever was left.

desmond1323

2010-03-07, 04:31 AM

Lots of things to quote here...

BTW, if you hate your players enough to open up with wail of the banshee when they aren't death warded you might as well have opened with something which would catch the monk as well ... hell, if you had given him boots of temporal acceleration he could have gone for wail of the banshee followed by boots, followed by acid/solid-fog and dimensional lock on whatever was left.

This is the first time I've ever used level nine spells. I wasn't prepared for three people to say...yeah, I rolled poor on my Fort save against a DC 27. My bad for inexperience. That's why I fixed it.

In that case without other buffs he would be doing 3d8*+5+5 = 23 damage on a hit. A rakshasha is going to be wholly unimpressed by that (8 damage after DR).

Except he does 30ish to 40ish damage in an attack. The exact details escape me, maybe I'll get them and post them here later on how that happens.

I'm surprised that no-one has suggested that the OP just tell the player he's overpowered in the group, and ask him to rebuild his character. That's what I'd do.

Likely because I don't feel his character is. A druid, by virtue of being a druid, can, in one day, outshine that, by selecting a new wildshape form and selecting different spells.

The second one....while he's powerful, he's not alarmingly so. Just enough that I feel I might not challenge him enough, and that's a poor gaming experience IMO. So I want a few tricks to make him work for his victories a bit more. Trust me, he even told me before we started that I should look over his build. He warned me it was powerful, and offered to do something else if I wanted him to. So, this point has already been dealt with.

And if a plan is foolproof? It's not an encounter, it's a PC deathtrap or Railroading. Using those is generally the mark of bad DMing.

This is the stuff I avoid...Honestly, I'm a nice DM. When I had my first TPK (it was this adventure, though they did it the right way first and died at the midboss, a Chuul Ranger 11...did it backwards this time), I was so upset with myself. But I mean...that's the game, sometimes it happens. And it was a level 15 adventure...I had to take the kid gloves off to some extent.

Honestly, of all the players/DMs (about three or four of us who do both regularly), they all say I'm the most enjoyable DM. That I give challenges that feel satisfying to conquer, and that they don't ever feel ridiculously overwhelmed.

I merely fear, with this monk/psy warrior, I'm not challenging him enough...so it becomes a tedium: "I walk up, full attack him for 80ish-90ish damage till he dies." "I take no damage because: you can't hit my AC, I make my save, I fail my save but have Evasion, etc."

I merely wanted a few strategies to challenge him a bit more, that's all.

PhoenixRivers

2010-03-07, 04:42 AM

Lots of things to quote here...

This is the first time I've ever used level nine spells. I wasn't prepared for three people to say...yeah, I rolled poor on my Fort save against a DC 27. My bad for inexperience. That's why I fixed it.

Except he does 30ish to 40ish damage in an attack. The exact details escape me, maybe I'll get them and post them here later on how that happens.

The second one....while he's powerful, he's not alarmingly so. Just enough that I feel I might not challenge him enough, and that's a poor gaming experience IMO. So I want a few tricks to make him work for his victories a bit more. Trust me, he even told me before we started that I should look over his build. He warned me it was powerful, and offered to do something else if I wanted him to. So, this point has already been dealt with.

This is the stuff I avoid...Honestly, I'm a nice DM. When I had my first TPK (it was this adventure, though they did it the right way first and died at the midboss, a Chuul Ranger 11...did it backwards this time), I was so upset with myself. But I mean...that's the game, sometimes it happens. And it was a level 15 adventure...I had to take the kid gloves off to some extent.

Honestly, of all the players/DMs (about three or four of us who do both regularly), they all say I'm the most enjoyable DM. That I give challenges that feel satisfying to conquer, and that they don't ever feel ridiculously overwhelmed.

I merely fear, with this monk/psy warrior, I'm not challenging him enough...so it becomes a tedium: "I walk up, full attack him for 80ish-90ish damage till he dies." "I take no damage because: you can't hit my AC, I make my save, I fail my save but have Evasion, etc."

I merely wanted a few strategies to challenge him a bit more, that's all.

Seriously: I'd try one of the following:
Quickened True Strike + Enervation + Hiding/invisible = vs Flatfooted touch AC for negative levels.

9th level spells:
Caster Gates in a solar, and for the service, demands 1 wish. (reduces xp cost of wish from 5000 to 1000). The Wish? Give the monk a -9 to his next save. (limited wish allows for -7, so an additional -2 for wish is reasonable).

Next spell? Dominate Person/etc. Some save or suck.

Big Beefy: Send an Air elemental monolith after them. 400 hp, give or take, attacks at +40 and higher, High DC Reflex save abilities, etc.

Psionics: Ego whip does 1d4 cha (can be increased) damage, and allows a save for half. He'll worry a bit when he takes 6-7 cha damage. 9 = vegetable.

desmond1323

2010-03-07, 04:55 AM

Seriously: I'd try one of the following:
Quickened True Strike + Enervation + Hiding/invisible = vs Flatfooted touch AC for negative levels.

9th level spells:
Caster Gates in a solar, and for the service, demands 1 wish. (reduces xp cost of wish from 5000 to 1000). The Wish? Give the monk a -9 to his next save. (limited wish allows for -7, so an additional -2 for wish is reasonable).

Next spell? Dominate Person/etc. Some save or suck.

Done and will do. Oooh, it will be beautiful...I'll really play up that Gate and Wish, let the players do a little "insert worst nightmare here"...then they'll be like, Oh he made a wish for that? Meh, not so ba-WHAT HAPPENED TO OUR MELEE?!?!

Big Beefy: Send an Air elemental monolith after them. 400 hp, give or take, attacks at +40 and higher, High DC Reflex save abilities, etc.

Like I said, one problem of this module....not a lot of those. This one is a nice one to keep in mind. I must say though, that the teratomorph with a Atk +28 was having no trouble hitting him. So, things that are supposed to be powerful against AC are fine...no problems there. But when the baddie is a Lich who, offhand, relies on getting through AC with touch or saves...and the touch is 30, and the saves are like +23....that was the real problem. But meh, problem addressed.

Psionics: Ego whip does 1d4 cha (can be increased) damage, and allows a save for half. He'll worry a bit when he takes 6-7 cha damage. 9 = vegetable.

Does Cha damage = 0 do that? Our group was always uncertain about that.

PhoenixRivers

2010-03-07, 05:08 AM

Like I said, one problem of this module....not a lot of those. This one is a nice one to keep in mind. I must say though, that the teratomorph with a Atk +28 was having no trouble hitting him. So, things that are supposed to be powerful against AC are fine...no problems there. But when the baddie is a Lich who, offhand, relies on getting through AC with touch or saves...and the touch is 30, and the saves are like +23....that was the real problem. But meh, problem addressed.Summon Elemental Monolith is a 9th level spell. :)

Does Cha damage = 0 do that? Our group was always uncertain about that.
Int, Wis, or Cha 0 = Vegetable.
Str or Dex 0 = Can't move at all (like paralyzed, but not).
Con 0 = Dead.

Myou

2010-03-07, 05:11 AM

Likely because I don't feel his character is. A druid, by virtue of being a druid, can, in one day, outshine that, by selecting a new wildshape form and selecting different spells.

Yes, but the druid isn't doing that, so this guy needs to tone it down a little to match everyone else.

AslanCross

2010-03-07, 05:23 AM

Um...trying to think....70s or 80s? Somehwere there abouts, if I recall correctly.

Hmm. Observe the patterns in which he uses his psionic powers. I know many of the Psychic Warrior's powers last in the minutes, so it's going to be harder to spread out the encounters so that he runs out of PP without exhausting the others to death.

In my campaign, the Psion (about Lv 10) has over 120 PPs, but I was able to force her to use her most expensive powers on individual enemies that were just too far for her to use her more economical powers on.

It's going to be hard to do that for a self-buffer, so you might want to playtest some encounters against him.

My group is pretty powerful, but I've gotten around their overwhelming prowess by ambushing them. The enemies (a hobgoblin army) now instinctively go for the psion since their intel says she's the one who wasted a dragon and incinerated a garrison or two. She's almost died a couple of times and has actually died once quite recently.

Despite my players' paranoia in spotting for ambushes, whenever one does come, they often get forced into a desperate situation very quickly. Divide and Conquer works really well.

Also, never ever have bosses alone. It sounds climactic and cool, but it's a lot more practical for villains to have a screen of mooks to hide behind as they buff up. Stoneskin would work really well for casters, not to mention fly.

desmond1323

2010-03-07, 05:39 AM

Hmm. Observe the patterns in which he uses his psionic powers. I know many of the Psychic Warrior's powers last in the minutes, so it's going to be harder to spread out the encounters so that he runs out of PP without exhausting the others to death.

In my campaign, the Psion (about Lv 10) has over 120 PPs, but I was able to force her to use her most expensive powers on individual enemies that were just too far for her to use her more economical powers on.

It's going to be hard to do that for a self-buffer, so you might want to playtest some encounters against him.

Self buffer? Erm...as far as I can recall, he's not done a single thing that does that. Being unfamiliar with Psionic stuff, specific names escape me....but the largest uses are that one that transfers damage to an enemy touched (solved with flying or some other way of staying away from those bloody fists), um one that let's him pounce basically...and, honestly, those are the only two I can remember him doing, but I wasn't watching his PP total, leaving that up to his own self.

Edit: Though I will most certainly do that...it's something I think I subconsciously realized, but thanks to your little verbal boot, it'll get done for real, heh.

My group is pretty powerful, but I've gotten around their overwhelming prowess by ambushing them. The enemies (a hobgoblin army) now instinctively go for the psion since their intel says she's the one who wasted a dragon and incinerated a garrison or two. She's almost died a couple of times and has actually died once quite recently.

Despite my players' paranoia in spotting for ambushes, whenever one does come, they often get forced into a desperate situation very quickly. Divide and Conquer works really well.

This is actually one of my most successful tactics, typically...not just with this level 15/16ish group, but with any group I run. My players are very paranoid as well when it comes to such things.

I also assume this is Red Hand? Heh, that's what taught me to do this in the first place.

Also, never ever have bosses alone. It sounds climactic and cool, but it's a lot more practical for villains to have a screen of mooks to hide behind as they buff up. Stoneskin would work really well for casters, not to mention fly.

Yes, I agree completely, and anything I make myself follows this.
However, points:
I didn't write the module.
He actually wasn't alone, but had his CR 17 'Dragon' mook (Deathbringer) with him.
They were in a cave with no room to fly, heh. Otherwise, he'd have done just that.

Edit: And I sound so bloody newbie, it makes me sick. That's it, I'm stealing me a Psionics handbook and reading it within the week!

desmond1323

2010-03-07, 05:43 AM

Summon Elemental Monolith is a 9th level spell. :)

I was being nice and using the spells the module gave me. Normally I wouldn't, but with the potential in all the spells available....it was necessary.

Int, Wis, or Cha 0 = Vegetable.
Str or Dex 0 = Can't move at all (like paralyzed, but not).
Con 0 = Dead.

Good to know. We were always sure with the Str, Dex, Con, and Int. Wis and Cha we were always a little more fuzzy with...but no more!

desmond1323

2010-03-07, 05:45 AM

Yes, but the druid isn't doing that, so this guy needs to tone it down a little to match everyone else.

If I ever have to make a player do that, I will declare myself a failure as a DM. Straight up.

magic9mushroom

2010-03-07, 05:47 AM

Good to know. We were always sure with the Str, Dex, Con, and Int. Wis and Cha we were always a little more fuzzy with...but no more!

Technically, there's a difference between Int, Wis, and Cha.

Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless.
Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless.
Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless.

PinkysBrain

2010-03-07, 05:57 AM

This is the first time I've ever used level nine spells. I wasn't prepared for three people to say...yeah, I rolled poor on my Fort save against a DC 27. My bad for inexperience. That's why I fixed it.
Didn't mean to sound harsh, sometimes they really deserve it :) Just meant that if you are going to hit that hard it would make sense to pull out all the stops ... which includes time stop (or boots of temporal acceleration).

Except he does 30ish to 40ish damage in an attack. The exact details escape me, maybe I'll get them and post them here later on how that happens.
If he does a double expansion he gets another 15 damage on top of the number I gave, and he can get more with offensive prescience ... that's just the nature of buffing.

Maybe he should take EK(Psionic Revivify) since he's always last man standing :) (Or maybe get access through psychic chirurgery, but that power is a bit abuseable.) Then he can carry around power stones of psionic revivify, a relatively cheap way to revive characters quickly after they died without level loss (2125 gp + 500 gp per extra round after death it should be able to work).

I merely fear, with this monk/psy warrior, I'm not challenging him enough...so it becomes a tedium: "I walk up, full attack him for 80ish-90ish damage till he dies." "I take no damage because: you can't hit my AC, I make my save, I fail my save but have Evasion, etc."
The problem is you faced him with a caster seemingly without protection (mirror image, displacement, blink etc). With contingency a high level caster should be able to get up defenses (of course there is the celerity line of spells too, but that's not a defense ... that's a win button).

Anyway, he seems to be going big on damage ... so face him with DR and lots of hitpoints (so mainly monstrous races). He gets to throw lots of dice, you get to keep stuff alive for a while.

When you do use a weak race for a NPC ... go for a decent level of optimization towards defense. The monk can't by himself dispel defenses, he will have a tough nut hitting a defensively buffed caster (miss chances) for instance. The summoned elemental monolith mentioned earlier would also hit him like a ton of bricks without help from party members (protection from evil).

AslanCross

2010-03-07, 06:02 AM

Self buffer? Erm...as far as I can recall, he's not done a single thing that does that. Being unfamiliar with Psionic stuff, specific names escape me....but the largest uses are that one that transfers damage to an enemy touched (solved with flying or some other way of staying away from those bloody fists), um one that let's him pounce basically...and, honestly, those are the only two I can remember him doing, but I wasn't watching his PP total, leaving that up to his own self.

Edit: Though I will most certainly do that...it's something I think I subconsciously realized, but thanks to your little verbal boot, it'll get done for real, heh.

Hmm, I'd have expected him to use Expansion or some of the other self-buffs.
The first one is Hostile Empathic Transfer, which is indeed pretty strong. The second is Psionic Lion's Charge.

I don't watch my psion's PP either; she's pretty honest and always declares how many she has left.

Also: http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/psionicPowerList.htm Psionics are on the SRD.

I found that after I playlisted encounters under one or two assumptions regarding what tactics the players might take, I'm able to run the encounter in a much more challenging way.

This is actually one of my most successful tactics, typically...not just with this level 15/16ish group, but with any group I run. My players are very paranoid as well when it comes to such things.

I also assume this is Red Hand? Heh, that's what taught me to do this in the first place.

Yeah, it takes some scaling up to keep ambush encounters fresh and interesting no matter how many times they happen, but my players seem to let their guard down at the absolute worst (best for me) times.

It is indeed RHOD; I gave them a very big problem when they were ambushed while escorting refugees to safety--a little embellishment I added to the module to make them feel the urgency of the war.

Yes, I agree completely, and anything I make myself follows this.
However, points:
I didn't write the module.
He actually wasn't alone, but had his CR 17 'Dragon' mook (Deathbringer) with him.
They were in a cave with no room to fly, heh. Otherwise, he'd have done just that.

As a DM, you have the prerogative to change the module according to your needs. My run of RHOD is so heavily edited that I practically used none of the statblocks out of the box. The dragons were all upgraded and so were the Wyrmlords. Modules are never hard and fast.

Edit: And I sound so bloody newbie, it makes me sick. That's it, I'm stealing me a Psionics handbook and reading it within the week!

The SRD has everything you need to know about Psionics. :)

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2010-03-07, 06:02 AM

First of all, he doesn't have Practiced Manifester so his manifester level is stuck at 10 unless he's using Overchannel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#overchannel), which deals damage to him though that's usually absorbed by an augmented Vigor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/vigor.htm). He has 106 powerpoints/day, he cannot spend more than his manifester level in powerpoints on any one power, and he only knows ten powers total plus Expanded Knowledge. I'll assume he's used Expanded Knowledge to gain Metamorphosis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosis.htm), but keep in mind he cannot take the form of anything with more than 13 HD if he Overchannels it.

I see Str +4, Dex +4, Wis +6, and no items to boost any of those stats, but he probably has a Periapt of Wisdom since natural armor is on a ring. I'll assume the Str and Dex come from manifesting Animal Affinity, which costs him 8 powerpoints for two stats and lasts only 10 (13) minutes. Is he spending a round on this at the start of combat, or is he counting it as being up the whole time? Maybe throw one random low-CR opponent at them, probably some sort of servant or maybe even an illusion, he manifests that power, and then they go down a trap-strewn hallway and have to search/disarm enough for its duration to run out.

Or maybe they're going through a forest/wilderness toward their opponent's lair, drop an easy (low CR) random encounter on them and he spends points on that and it runs out before they get to any other fights. Maybe give them a sense of urgency, they have to get to the lair today but there are orcs roaming around. Be ready to throw about a dozen encounters at them all 20-30 minutes of in-game time apart. The first should be 1st level warriors and adepts with white dire wolves, probably 10 orcs and 4 wolves total. The orcs will be wearing armor under heavy fur clothing because it's cold, so they won't see what kind of armor they have. He'll buff, they'll mop the floor with the low-level encounter, and his buff wears off while they travel. The second encounter should be 10 orcs and 4 wolves again, but this time they're advanced Winter Wolves of Legend (MM2) and the orcs are six 12th level Fighters, two 13th level Wizards (Conjurers), and two 13th level Clerics, all dressed the same as the previous encounter.

The Wizards open up with Black Tentacles, Freezing Fog, and use a targeted Greater Dispel Magic on anyone who buffs themselves. Give them the Abrupt Jaunt variant from PH2, and the Travel domain at Wizard 5 via Complete Champion. Abrupt Jaunt can be used in response to an attack to teleport out of reach, thus automatically avoiding it. The Clerics used Mass Bull's Strength/Bear's Endurance and Bless on everyone when the Wizards' Arcane Eyes spotted the PCs approaching, will ready an action to cast Wall of Stone in front of a charging opponent to waste their round, be buffed with (DMM: Persist?) Divine Power, Divine Favor, and Righteous Might, and will try to heal damage inflicted on their allies. Three of the Fighters should be glaive-wielders who focus on hit and damage feats like Greater Weapon Focus/Specialization and Melee Weapon Mastery. Two should be sword-and-board defense-focused opponents with Elusive Target (CW), Combat Form feats (PH2), Greater Heavy Armor Optimization (RoS), Shield Specialization/Ward (PH2), etc. with Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill). The other can be an archer, with feats similar to the glaive-users and Ranged Weapon Mastery. The Winter Wolves should have Entangling Exhalation (RotD) and should first breathe on as many opponents as they can and then try to keep everyone tripped. They'll have seen the PCs approaching and used buffs like Extended Displacement, Haste, Shield of Faith, Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, etc.

After that use mostly 1st level orc encounters but throw in one or two more elite encounters to keep them on their toes. Include a few Cure scrolls in the tough encounters so the PCs can heal up afterward. When they finally get to their destination he should be low enough on powerpoints that he'll only use them at crucial times. Maybe they find out where the Lich's phylactery is, but once they get to this point stopping to rest would mean he reforms and escapes. He's picked this particular area to hide it because long-range teleportation and other fast-travel spells don't function (properly), though he has a permanent Teleportation Circle which always takes someone outside this area, after which he can simply teleport or plane shift reliably away.

desmond1323

2010-03-07, 06:09 AM

Didn't mean to sound harsh, sometimes they really deserve it :) Just meant that if you are going to hit that hard it would make sense to pull out all the stops ... which includes time stop (or boots of temporal acceleration).

Well, Time Stop is how he got away...but he was more focused on running then attacking, also, my Too-Niceness kicked in to really utilize it.

Rest assured, when he comes back for round two, he will be much, much more prepared in all fashions, both defensive and offensive.

I will have to look up these boots, for I know not what they do.

If he does a double expansion he gets another 15 damage on top of the number I gave, and he can get more with offensive prescience ... that's just the nature of buffing.

Yes, but he wasn't. Couldn't, what with the relatively small cave and all. Large was as big as he could go...soooo, I'ma look at his numbers to get a better understanding. His characters are always like this...so hard to understand if they're not your own, heh.

Maybe he should take EK(Psionic Revivify) since he's always last man standing :) (Or maybe get access through psychic chirurgery, but that power is a bit abuseable.) Then he can carry around power stones of psionic revivify, a relatively cheap way to revive characters quickly after they died without level loss (1000 gp + 500 gp per round after death it should be able to work).

I shall mention this to him. And the party in general...though...it's really difficult when they're all either Neutral or Lawful Neutral (Or Neutral Evil in the Doppleganger's case, but they don't know that)...they don't really care too much about each other. It's been...an interesting experience DMing a party with no Good characters.

The problem is you faced him with a caster seemingly without protection (mirror image, displacement, blink etc). With contingency a high level caster should be able to get up defenses (of course there is the celerity line of spells too, but that's not a defense ... that's a win button).

Thus was the problem when the two sort of stumble upon one another. No real time for such nice defenisve buffs. But next time!

All in all, all advce taken into consideration and just further backing up what's been said. Woot. I think I know what to now!

...and here I was, just threatening him with the Mailman as a way to get past him. Now I won't have to resort to something that ridiculous.

magic9mushroom

2010-03-07, 06:13 AM

Thus was the problem when the two sort of stumble upon one another. No real time for such nice defenisve buffs. But next time!

Foresight/Celerity/Time Stop. So awesome.

Alternatively, Foresight/Celerity/Plane Shift to specially prepared demiplane where time flows at rate 0 minutes on Material Plane = 1 minute on demiplane.

desmond1323

2010-03-07, 06:14 AM

As a DM, you have the prerogative to change the module according to your needs. My run of RHOD is so heavily edited that I practically used none of the statblocks out of the box. The dragons were all upgraded and so were the Wyrmlords. Modules are never hard and fast.

Well obviously, and I do so all the time. With the most potent example being RHoD. Granted, mine's not nearly as edited as yours...but still, changes all around. Especially on the big baddies.

But with these one shots, I tend to stick things as they are. It usually works out, it's less work for me, it's faster to fun times. I alter things on the fly here and there all the time of course. I get small ideas to combine these one shots with others, or with some larger thing I'm doing as a DM personally all the time and make quick changes. Overall, we can call it laziness, heh.

Of course, for the return of this lich, that'll all be designed by me, and thus put way into my favor...to a reasonable extent of course. Be nice to have the SC by my side though, hehe.

PhoenixRivers

2010-03-07, 06:16 AM

Technically, there's a difference between Int, Wis, and Cha.

All 3 of those descriptions are accurately described by my slightly less than technical "Vegetable".

Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless.
Coma-Like Stupor = Vegetable

Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless.
Sleeping and unable to wake up = Vegetable.

Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless.
Catatonic, coma-like stupor = Vegetable.

All 3 are functionally the same. The only difference is fluff. Hence, why I used a nontechnical term and grouped them under the common term, "Vegetable".

Now Str 0 and Dex 0 DO have a mechanical difference (oddly, the one you didn't focus on).
Str 0 means you collapse, unable to move. You're a limp rag-doll.
Dex 0 means you're frozen in place, unable to move. You're stiff as a board.

The difference? Dex 0 doesn't make you prone.

magic9mushroom

2010-03-07, 06:17 AM

PinkysBrain

2010-03-07, 06:20 AM

The Wizards open up with Black Tentacles, Freezing Fog
Any player without FoM or teleportation is so going to hate you.

DMM: Persist?
As you said he didn't even take practiced manifester, so I'd say no ... that level of cheese is over the top. In fact an encounter with that many casters is a bit over the top IMO.

The Winter Wolves should have Entangling Exhalation (RotD) and should first breathe on as many opponents as they can and then try to keep everyone tripped.
This is about the point where anyone without FoM or already flying out of reach leaves the room ... that's a little too much :)

AslanCross

2010-03-07, 06:21 AM

Well obviously, and I do so all the time. With the most potent example being RHoD. Granted, mine's not nearly as edited as yours...but still, changes all around. Especially on the big baddies.

But with these one shots, I tend to stick things as they are. It usually works out, it's less work for me, it's faster to fun times. I alter things on the fly here and there all the time of course. I get small ideas to combine these one shots with others, or with some larger thing I'm doing as a DM personally all the time and make quick changes. Overall, we can call it laziness, heh.

Of course, for the return of this lich, that'll all be designed by me, and thus put way into my favor...to a reasonable extent of course. Be nice to have the SC by my side though, hehe.

Oh, I see, it was a one-shot. Well, I still hope you can find a way to challenge the guy. Had a hard time finding a way to challenge my party at first, but after their artificer got killed in that night raid, they completely lost their sense of invincibility.

desmond1323

2010-03-07, 06:21 AM

To Biffoniacus_Furiou:

That's very awesome, and I'll keep it in mind...though some of those assumptions...well, a lot of 'em are wrong. And that's mostly my fault for lack of detail on this character, heh. Those stats your using are after magic items. Thus the (magic/base), though I shoulda said (magic item/base). He's got belt +4, gloves +4, and periapt +6 (because every single one of us puts Nat armor on a ring, just for such an occasion usually, heh).

Though as Pinkeysbrain pointed out...it is pretty hardcore. 'Fraid that goes against my niceness a little much, heh.

Thanks all the same though! I'll definitely keep it in mind when I familiarize myself with the psionic stuff. But it's 630 in the bloody morning...as fun and enlightening as all this has been, bed might just call me. Maybe.
Edit: Well, that's not happening now, geez...

So thanks to all, and keep posting if anything else comes to mind!

desmond1323

2010-03-07, 06:29 AM

Oh, I see, it was a one-shot. Well, I still hope you can find a way to challenge the guy. Had a hard time finding a way to challenge my party at first, but after their artificer got killed in that night raid, they completely lost their sense of invincibility.

Oh I most certainly will. The adventure might have been a one-shot, but the party probably isn't. The players like their characters too much! And I guess I do too, so I'm kind of glad everyone got out alive. Though I liked their first party tons more, and was ridiculously sad to see that Chuul kill them all one at a time...it's nice to be playing higher levels for the first time. And educational, for whenever a character I'm playing gets there.

But yes, since that TPK...death has just been cropping up. My players are getting paranoid of me. And I can give them the DM smile to send chills up their backs....I like it best when we all have fun and a successful trip, but freaking your players out every once in a while is too good a feeling to never do.

Myou

2010-03-07, 07:29 AM

If I ever have to make a player do that, I will declare myself a failure as a DM. Straight up.

Wow, you're incredibly rude, you're actually suggesting that I'm a failure as a DM. I'm pretty angry right now, but I don't want to get banned for something so stupid, so I wont say what I'd like to.

Anyway, that doen't even make sense. If one player is playing a hulking hurler and the rest are sword and board fighters you think the DM has failed if he asks the hulking hurler to play a less broken build?

PhoenixRivers

2010-03-07, 07:51 AM

Wow, you're incredibly rude, you're actually suggesting that I'm a failure as a DM. I'm pretty angry right now, but I don't want to get banned for something so stupid, so I wont say what I'd like to.

Anyway, that doen't even make sense. If one player is playing a hulking hurler and the rest are sword and board fighters you think the DM has failed if he asks the hulking hurler to play a less broken build?

I believe he's saying that he considers it a point of pride to balance his adventure to the party (much as I do). I doubt he's saying you're a failure as a DM, merely that it's a failure to him, based on his DMing style.

He didn't make a single reference to you, guy. A slightly thicker skin would serve you well.

Myou

2010-03-07, 08:02 AM

I believe he's saying that he considers it a point of pride to balance his adventure to the party (much as I do). I doubt he's saying you're a failure as a DM, merely that it's a failure to him, based on his DMing style.

He didn't make a single reference to you, guy. A slightly thicker skin would serve you well.

Unless he plans to balance his combats by entirely focusing on things that are challenging to that one player that isn't practical, and any time he doen't build an encounter specifically to beat that guy, the other players will end up feeling useless as that one guy effortlessly wins it. I consider it more important to make sure my players have fun, and if all my attention is on the one guy with a broken build, I'm neglecting the others.

Anyway, the way I read what he said it's a very deliberate insult, since I had specifically said that it was what I would do. Perhaps I'm wrong, but the way it's worded it does imply that even if it's not meant to.

alisbin

2010-03-07, 09:59 AM

one minor point (but probably very useful for you), hostile empathic transfer is a mind effecting power, so purely by using undead, outsiders or any other naturally mind effecting immune creature, you can deny him the "ow that hurt, oh well too bad now all that pain is yours" tactic. even protection from alignment spells give immunity to that so at the very least you can limit his ability recover easily from damage without seriously distressing the rest of the party (assuming you don't have an enchanter type).

Corey

2010-03-07, 10:02 AM

Have the party encounter a marching mariachi band of kobolds, all dressed in sombreros. When they stop laughing, let them discover that the kobolds all cast Level 3 bard spells, specifically Unlock and Slow, as well as Glitterdust.

Then start in with the Suggestions ...

desmond1323

2010-03-07, 05:49 PM

Anyway, the way I read what he said it's a very deliberate insult, since I had specifically said that it was what I would do. Perhaps I'm wrong, but the way it's worded it does imply that even if it's not meant to.

I apologize for the misunderstanding...but that's why I specifically said that if I have to do that, I would declare myself a failure as a DM. I did not use general terms, so it was not meant to go beyond referencing myself and only myself.

As I've said before, everyone has their own styles, likes and dislikes. When I judge myself as a DM, I feel I should be able to handle whatever the players throw at me, and respond with something that makes everyone feel useful and have a good time. The majority of players in our group don't really optimize...the few who--arguably--do, is only to a mild extent and not in some No Fun game breaking way. If someone does build something like that, I should catch it before we start. If I let it through, I should be able to deal with it. Those're my own standards that I hold myself to, no one else.

That's why I won't ask him to rebuild this character. He likes this character, he put work into making him. As this thread has proven, while he's powerful, there ARE ways to get around this and give him a run for his money. So, for myself as a DM, I will figure out a way to use some of what has been suggested in such a way that will challenge the monk, but allow the other party members to compensate in some way...thereby allowing them to come together as a team, rather than individuals. And thus fun and enjoyment and pride in one's character can be had by all.

Unless he plans to balance his combats by entirely focusing on things that are challenging to that one player that isn't practical, and any time he doen't build an encounter specifically to beat that guy, the other players will end up feeling useless as that one guy effortlessly wins it. I consider it more important to make sure my players have fun, and if all my attention is on the one guy with a broken build, I'm neglecting the others.

As to that, well, I'm not going to do that either. Fun is my first priority as well, I just think you and I have different ways to ensure that happens. Probably because our groups have fun in different ways.

Yes, I will come up with something that this monk will have trouble with. But I will do it in such a way that allows the other team mates to step in and help. Part of the problem here is that I focused on describing his actions--I didn't say what anyone else was doing. While he was the most effective PC at the time, it was mostly because everyone else was at a disadvantage...Dread Necro couldn't use her spells or undead (basically leaves her useless), Rogue started off captured and paralyzed (and the party didn't want to help him), and the Druid had been acting kind of paranoid and skittish since his raptor was mummy rotted away (and he didn't have the SC, so no access to his favorite spells).

I've apparently done a grand job as a DM, according to my players, and this surprised the hell out of me considering I was the newest member at the time. Personally, I'd like to keep up the good work. And part of the way I do that is by asking others opinion here...so I thank you, and everyone, again personally.

one minor point (but probably very useful for you), hostile empathic transfer is a mind effecting power, so purely by using undead, outsiders or any other naturally mind effecting immune creature

Is it a mind affecting ability? I had wondered that, but didn't care to look it up at the immediate moment. If so, then several things he used that on....he shouldn't have used that on. Well, way to go me. Just more evidence for me to get to know bloody psionics and how they work. *facepalm*

Have the party encounter a marching mariachi band of kobolds, all dressed in sombreros. When they stop laughing, let them discover that the kobolds all cast Level 3 bard spells, specifically Unlock and Slow, as well as Glitterdust.

Then start in with the Suggestions ...

Hah! I may keep that in mind for the parody game that is inevitably going to show up sometime soon. Ah, I love kobolds so much. Not 100% sure why, but they are just awesome. Mostly because Deekin of Neverwinter Nights was awesome.

Thurbane

2010-03-07, 06:51 PM

How about a Rakshasa sorcerer? Have him pump DEX, and rely on ranged touch attacks with no save. Ray of Dizziness, Enervation etc. Give it Fly, to stay out of reach of those fists, and something like Greater Mirror Image. Also, spells like Heroism and Cat's Grace to boost it's ranged touch attacks. If you really want to be fiendish, give it the Vestigial Twin trait from DMG II so it can pop off two spells a round. If it's high enough level, take the Rapid Metamagic and Quicken Spell feats. It has decent DR, and you can give it spells like Electric Vengeance and Fire Shield so that if he does start pummeling it, he'll be taking damage at the same time.

Is there any defense against the power that allows him to transfer damage to an opponent? If it is a Fort save, for instance, give the Rakshasa some sort of Fort boosting item.

...I'm shooting in the dark a bit, here, I'm totally unfamiliar with psionics.

PinkysBrain

2010-03-07, 09:53 PM

Is there any defense against the power that allows him to transfer damage to an opponent?
He has to hit with a touch attack and it is mind affecting.

faceroll

2010-03-07, 10:13 PM

One solution, and I don't know how attractive to you as a DM this is, is to send your players here for optimization advice. That way, if the whole party goes up to his level, you can readjust encounters without spoiling their fun. While 40 AC and +15 to hit are pretty big numbers, they're just numbers. You're the DM. You can easily beat those numbers by using bigger monsters, advanced monsters, re-feated monsters, monsters with class levels, etc.

desmond1323

2010-03-07, 10:29 PM

He has to hit with a touch attack and it is mind affecting.

To reiterate: *endless headdesk*.
The logic was there, I just didn't question it! *hangs head* Oy...

One solution, and I don't know how attractive to you as a DM this is, is to send your players here for optimization advice. That way, if the whole party goes up to his level, you can readjust encounters without spoiling their fun.

No thanks, because that's not the actual problem. Thanks anyways, though!

While 40 AC and +15 to hit are pretty big numbers, they're just numbers. You're the DM. You can easily beat those numbers by using bigger monsters, advanced monsters, re-feated monsters, monsters with class levels, etc.

I suppose I may have been a little quick on the draw here...not a lot of variation in what this character was coming up against--these are obvious solutions which I just haven't been able to implement yet...but to see them suggested just backs up what I had already suspected, so, that's always comforting.

alisbin

2010-03-07, 10:36 PM

its ok, you can fix it in the future.

ShneekeyTheLost

2010-03-07, 11:04 PM

He has to hit with a touch attack and it is mind affecting.

Well, it can be augmented to do a PBAE rather than a touch, but it will still be mind-affecting.

Thurbane

2010-03-07, 11:06 PM

faceroll

2010-03-07, 11:18 PM

All 3 of those descriptions are accurately described by my slightly less than technical "Vegetable".

Coma-Like Stupor = Vegetable

Sleeping and unable to wake up = Vegetable.

Catatonic, coma-like stupor = Vegetable.

All 3 are functionally the same. The only difference is fluff. Hence, why I used a nontechnical term and grouped them under the common term, "Vegetable".

Now Str 0 and Dex 0 DO have a mechanical difference (oddly, the one you didn't focus on).
Str 0 means you collapse, unable to move. You're a limp rag-doll.
Dex 0 means you're frozen in place, unable to move. You're stiff as a board.

The difference? Dex 0 doesn't make you prone.

I believe the term vegetable implies no brain function, so 0 wisdom wouldn't be a vegetable. Theta waves would show up on brain scanning someone with zero wisdom.

No thanks, because that's not the actual problem. Thanks anyways, though!

Well, the obvious solution to your problem is just to use tougher monsters. Take something in the module, give it +3 class levels of whatever helps it most. If it has a ton of HD, a couple level of warblade will basically turn it into a midlevel martial class. Give its minions a couple levels of something that give them stacking buffs- dragon shaman auras, cleric spells, crusader stances/maneuvers. You can quickly rack up +5 to +10 to hit with proper class/feat/ability cherry picking. Use the elite array, too. There are some really sweet templates out there, as well. Giving levels in swordsage, monk, or fist of the forest to monsters that don't wear armor but have good wisdom/con scores can easily bump a monster up 10 touch AC.

Of course, that makes the rest of the party possibly even worse off.

However, if you DO go the buffing minion route, the rest of the party can minion-rape until the BBEG is at a manageable level for the monk to take down. Or simply buff AC, but not touch AC or saves, so the druid can still do stuff. Don't know what the rogue can do. Kill minions, I guess.

aivanther

2010-03-07, 11:27 PM

Disjunction if the tool my DM always used when he got to POed at us...screw his magic items.

Then again, that might be a bit of an over-reaction. I might have missed it, but are you doing full transparency, partial, or what?

ShneekeyTheLost

2010-03-07, 11:27 PM

So, reading up on Hostile Empathic Transfer, it requires a touch attack allows SR/PR, has a Will save for 1/2, and is mind affecting.

This makes the Rakshasa Sorcerer even better as a foe. It's Mirror Image/Blur/Displacement will help with the touch, with SR/PR transparency he will have to overcome it's resistance, and it's Will save should be quite high.

Or a random CR1 skeleton... who is immune to mind affecting.

Corpsecrafter feats, being created in a Desecrated and Unhallowed location, and a few other boosts... undead can get pretty beefy. Then you throw the Mummy Lord Cleric at them, who bolsters and buff-bot's the pack of undead, then starts tossing his own spells around. And that's only if he doesn't want to get *real* nasty with his Mummy Rot...

PhoenixRivers

2010-03-07, 11:28 PM

I know all of what you stated.

So, then, your point in splitting hairs was?

I believe the term vegetable implies no brain function, so 0 wisdom wouldn't be a vegetable. Theta waves would show up on brain scanning someone with zero wisdom.
See above. That may be what you inferred, but it is not what I implied.

Informal. a person who is so severely impaired mentally or physically as to be largely incapable of conscious responses or activity.Wis 0 qualifies.

1. the making of unnecessarily fine distinctions.
Get the point?

Paul H

2010-03-07, 11:28 PM

Hi

Noticed no-one mentioned Warmages?

12th lvl Warmage, (Int 22, Extra Edge), with Boots of Flying casts Leomund's Tiny Hut. Now no-one can see in, so they're flat-footed. Follow up with Empowered Magic Missiles for 5D4+15 damage.

Or: Quickened Truestrike with Empowered Orb of Acid (avg 93 pts dam). Using Disintegrate instead of Orbs is just plain Nasty!

And Cloudkill is also on their spell list! :smallwink:

Cheers
Paul H

desmond1323

2010-03-07, 11:31 PM

Well, the obvious solution to your problem is just to use tougher monsters. Take something in the module, give it +3 class levels of whatever helps it most. If it has a ton of HD, a couple level of warblade will basically turn it into a midlevel martial class. Give its minions a couple levels of something that give them stacking buffs- dragon shaman auras, cleric spells, crusader stances/maneuvers. You can quickly rack up +5 to +10 to hit with proper class/feat/ability cherry picking. Use the elite array, too. There are some really sweet templates out there, as well. Giving levels in swordsage, monk, or fist of the forest to monsters that don't wear armor but have good wisdom/con scores can easily bump a monster up 10 touch AC.

Of course, that makes the rest of the party possibly even worse off.

Hrm, *nods*, all very nice sans the ToB stuff (which I don't use). Basically, I was kind of put in a bind by the pre-made module and stuff...but from here on out, anything I do with this party will be completely under my control and design...the Dragon Shaman stuff particularly interests me...I made one (and a Marshal), loved them both, then never got to play them. It'd be nice to actually use it for a change.

Paul H

2010-03-07, 11:34 PM

Hi

........ and the basic Warmage, dont forget Warmages...:smallbiggrin:

Cheers
Paul H

faceroll

2010-03-07, 11:35 PM

Get the point?

Hey man, relax. The OP said he didn't know the rules, we're just trying to help clarify them.

Paul H

2010-03-07, 11:41 PM

Hi

I'll see the Lost Schneekey's complicated Undead thingy with my Kobold, and raise with 12 levels of Warmage...... [LOL]

Have FUN guys & gals - the game's about FUN!

Cheers
Paul H

ShneekeyTheLost

2010-03-07, 11:43 PM

Hi

I'll see the Lost Schneekey's complicated Undead thingy with my Kobold, and raise with 12 levels of Warmage...... [LOL]

Have FUN guys & gals - the game's about FUN!

Cheers
Paul H

a) My option is completely core

b) My option doesn't target the character's strengths

c) My option is flat immune to his method of defense

d) My build is simpler, and requires fewer splatbooks, than yours does.

Try again.

desmond1323

2010-03-07, 11:45 PM

Hi

I'll see the Lost Schneekey's complicated Undead thingy with my Kobold, and raise with 12 levels of Warmage...... [LOL]

Have FUN guys & gals - the game's about FUN!

Cheers
Paul H

Hahah, OK OK, Paul H, I see your warmage suggestion, have no fear...all things not ToB related are being considered!

Also, thanks faceroll....yeah, if you all want to continue that discussion, take it elsewhere, please? It's off topic, and pointless...My group was merely never sure if all Ability=0 caused death or some other disabling feature. The question has long since been answered, and you're now arguing semantics. Thanks for your time and concern.

Paul H

2010-03-07, 11:52 PM

Or a random CR1 skeleton... who is immune to mind affecting.

Corpsecrafter feats, being created in a Desecrated and Unhallowed location, and a few other boosts... undead can get pretty beefy. Then you throw the Mummy Lord Cleric at them, who bolsters and buff-bot's the pack of undead, then starts tossing his own spells around. And that's only if he doesn't want to get *real* nasty with his Mummy Rot...

Hi Shneeky

1) Corpsecrafter ISN'T Core
2) Warmages are simpler build, concentrating on THEIR strengths
3) How can you be both immune to their defence AND ignore it? (their strengths)
4) I only used ONE splat book - you used AT LEAST one - so WRONG AGAIN
5) Chill - I play for fun

Paul H

ShneekeyTheLost

2010-03-08, 12:11 AM

Hi Shneeky

1) Corpsecrafter ISN'T Core
2) Warmages are simpler build, concentrating on THEIR strengths
3) How can you be both immune to their defence AND ignore it? (their strengths)
4) I only used ONE splat book - you used AT LEAST one - so WRONG AGAIN
5) Chill - I play for fun

Paul H

1) Corpsecrafter is purely optional to my suggestion. Using Core material is perfectly viable

2) Warmages target the problem PC's strengths... Reflex Saves and high Touch AC. A Sorcerer would be a dozen times better than a Warmage for this. And pure Core as well.

3) My option is immune to Hostile Empathic Transfer, which is the Problem PC's primary way to both heal himself and take down BBEG's. Yours is not. Yours will always take at least half damage from this, and will let him heal himself up.

4) Again, Corpsecrafter is optional. How complicated is Mummy Lord + Undead Mooks? This has been a perfectly viable encounter since the original D&D some thirty years ago.

5) You attack someone, expect flack back. [LOL]