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View Full Version : Harpoon + Exit Wound enchantment = ow?



The Vorpal Tribble
2010-03-07, 10:34 AM
In one of the 3.5 books there is a weapon special ability called Penetrating or something to that effect. You use it on a ranged weapon and it shoots through them.

Any recall which book it's in?

zagan
2010-03-07, 10:48 AM
Perhaps your thinking about Exit wound ? Complete warrior p 134

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-03-07, 10:56 AM
Thanks, that's it.

Now, question... suppose you have an exit wound harpoon which is capable of lodging itself in the wound and automatically deals the same amount to remove.

I'm wonder if this wouldn't thus deal 1d10 damage twice. 'Also', if you have a rope attached does this mean, with sufficient strength, you could technically pull on any creature you've punctured? Could grab up a whole posse in one go.

zagan
2010-03-07, 11:02 AM
I have no idea, it's possible I suppose this is probably a DM call. Still the image is nice.

Tehnar
2010-03-07, 11:04 AM
The harpoon only deals secondary damage (the damage dealt if it is pulled out) if the creature it is in tries to remove it.

Prime32
2010-03-07, 11:07 AM
What you want to do is combine it with the fleshgrinding enchantment (BoVD), which causes a weapon to stick in the target and keep attacking them until they pull it out.

Rather amusingly, BoVD also has a quality which allows you to command anyone else who holds your weapon to attack themselves with it as a free action. So you can do this whenever they try to pull the harpoon out. :smallbiggrin:

AmberVael
2010-03-07, 11:23 AM
Thanks, that's it.

Now, question... suppose you have an exit wound harpoon which is capable of lodging itself in the wound and automatically deals the same amount to remove.

I'm wonder if this wouldn't thus deal 1d10 damage twice. 'Also', if you have a rope attached does this mean, with sufficient strength, you could technically pull on any creature you've punctured? Could grab up a whole posse in one go.

I wondered about this some time ago, except my question was "what happens when you make it a Returning harpoon."

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-03-07, 12:43 PM
I wondered about this some time ago, except my question was "what happens when you make it a Returning harpoon."
ah, that question too. I'm wanting to give such a harpoon to a Bloodstorm blade :smallamused:

BenTheJester
2010-03-07, 12:57 PM
ah, that question too. I'm wanting to give such a harpoon to a Bloodstorm blade :smallamused:

I can't quote RAW, but I think a returning weapon just disappears from its location and reappears in your hand

Gralamin
2010-03-07, 12:59 PM
I can't quote RAW, but I think a returning weapon just disappears from its location and reappears in your hand

No, that is the Psionic version of returning. Returning zooms across the battlefield.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-03-07, 01:02 PM
No, that is the Psionic version of returning. Returning zooms across the battlefield.
And the bloodstorm blade specifically says you can call it back to your hand.

2xMachina
2010-03-07, 01:06 PM
It'd be nice to add ropes, then bounce it off everything (BSB 10).

Needle and threading everything in sight FTW.

Gralamin
2010-03-07, 01:07 PM
It'd be nice to add ropes, then bounce it off everything (BSB 10).

Needle and threading everything in sight FTW.

See if you can get it some Warmind as well for Sweeping Strike.

BenTheJester
2010-03-07, 01:12 PM
A Fleshgrinding Harpoon isn't better than other Fleshgrinding weapon. The Fleshgrinding special ability sticks your weapon in your opponent no matter what.

A Cursed Unholy/Holy/Anarchic/Axiomatic Fleshgrinding Weapon could be nice

The enemy has the choice between having the weapon deal damage every turn, or permanently lose 1 level(well, until it receives a Remove Curse).

arguskos
2010-03-07, 01:16 PM
A Fleshgrinding Harpoon isn't better than other Fleshgrinding weapon. The Fleshgrinding special ability sticks your weapon in your opponent no matter what.
Actually, it is. Removing the harpoon deals extra damage, no matter WHY it's imbedded into the opponent. :smallwink:

Now, this is a fairly small amount of damage, but hey, it's free damage right? :smallamused:

Also, yeah, I like your suggestion too.

Glyphic
2010-03-07, 03:02 PM
Hm, if only you could get some sort of slashing Harpoon, so you could do Whirling blade!

Darrin
2010-03-07, 11:38 PM
Actually, it is. Removing the harpoon deals extra damage, no matter WHY it's imbedded into the opponent. :smallwink:

Now, this is a fairly small amount of damage, but hey, it's free damage right? :smallamused:


Not so small when you add a massive amount of sneak attack or power attack damage to it. The harpoon has shown up in a few different sourcebooks, but most of them say the damage done on the way out is the same as the damage done on the way in, which usually includes bonuses from Strength, favored enemy, sneak attack, and so on.

As far as I know, the harpoon + returning weapon combo has never really been addressed via an official ruling, so you've got to get the DM to agree that something like the Returning ability does the same damage as the target removing the harpoon himself. So... good luck with that.

arguskos
2010-03-07, 11:46 PM
Not so small when you add a massive amount of sneak attack or power attack damage to it. The harpoon has shown up in a few different sourcebooks, but most of them say the damage done on the way out is the same as the damage done on the way in, which usually includes bonuses from Strength, favored enemy, sneak attack, and so on.

As far as I know, the harpoon + returning weapon combo has never really been addressed via an official ruling, so you've got to get the DM to agree that something like the Returning ability does the same damage as the target removing the harpoon himself. So... good luck with that.
Well, yeah, but I was addressing a simple Fleshgrinding Harpoon vs. Fleshgrinding non-Harpoon, in which case, the damage on the Harpoon isn't massively major, but is still enough to count as better than the non-Harpoon (free damage and all).

Course, if I was making a Harpoon user, I'd totally do what you're suggesting, cause uh, Harpoons are pretty sweet. :smallamused:

Glimbur
2010-03-07, 11:56 PM
A Cursed Unholy/Holy/Anarchic/Axiomatic Fleshgrinding Weapon could be nice

The enemy has the choice between having the weapon deal damage every turn, or permanently lose 1 level(well, until it receives a Remove Curse).

The negative level goes away when they drop the weapon. It can't be fixed via Restoration, or Remove Curse.

faceroll
2010-03-07, 11:58 PM
The negative level goes away when they drop the weapon. It can't be fixed via Restoration, or Remove Curse.

And I just looked that up. Dang ninjas. :smallwink:

krossbow
2010-03-08, 12:02 AM
This all sounds like a recipe for harpoon powered anti-gravity.

BenTheJester
2010-03-08, 12:34 AM
The negative level goes away when they drop the weapon. It can't be fixed via Restoration, or Remove Curse.

Except you can't drop a cursed weapon.

(Although I guess you can sheath it)

Leon
2010-03-08, 01:05 AM
I cant recall if it is a Feat or a enhancement but there is something that lets you shoot multiple targets in a line.
That coupled with the Harpoon should be nasty as you would then have several foes on a Rope

Eldan
2010-03-08, 02:19 AM
Then you attach the rope to a catapult...

Bucky
2010-03-08, 02:48 AM
Then you attach the rope to a catapult...

Then you cast Rope Trick. Forget the pocket universe - just use it to make the rope go vertical and stay there for hours.

Shalist
2010-03-08, 02:56 AM
1) Attach chain to above harpoon.

2) Skewer all your hapless targets

3) Have the party gimps standing by, dual wielding "shocking" weapons, to strike that nice conductive, metal chain, and/or have the thrower hold it with a pair of 'shocking' gauntlets...

4) Perhaps insert some 'animate rope' for more fun?

Eldan
2010-03-08, 02:57 AM
Hmm.

Okay. I think with three people, we can make this work.

Person one throws a harpoon. He's probably just a bloodstorm blade.

Person two needs ranks in use rope, and has to be a catapult operator. An expert can do this.

Person three is a wizard flying near the apex of the trajectory, ready to cast rope trick. He has to be pretty fast, most likely.

Result: several enemies hanging from the sky.

Keld Denar
2010-03-08, 03:05 AM
If you don't mind me spilling a little physics on your D&D, the shock loading of a couple people tied the the projectile of a typcial catapult would pretty much damp it's trajectory immediately. You'd need a REALLY large catapult (talkin ~1-1.5 ton projectile, GL with that) to have any luck with launching a couple people tied to the projectile. In fact, you'd probably break either the rope or the person at that point, depending on the quality of rope used. Either way, it wouldn't really work...

Eldan
2010-03-08, 03:10 AM
Now you make me sad.

In that case, let's use a giant throwing the boulder, instead of a catapult :smalltongue:

krossbow
2010-03-08, 03:12 AM
Now you make me sad.

In that case, let's use a giant throwing the boulder, instead of a catapult :smalltongue:



You know boulders are like Godwin's law; bringing them in means that, eventually, a hulking hurler will be brought into the equation and the world will be destroyed.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-03-08, 03:13 AM
If you don't mind me spilling a little physics on your D&D, the shock loading of a couple people tied the the projectile of a typcial catapult would pretty much damp it's trajectory immediately. You'd need a REALLY large catapult (talkin ~1-1.5 ton projectile, GL with that) to have any luck with launching a couple people tied to the projectile. In fact, you'd probably break either the rope or the person at that point, depending on the quality of rope used. Either way, it wouldn't really work...

Sure... use an enchanted rope, the people are attached to the rope, and would continue to be dragged along with it.

As for someone able to toss a 1.5 ton projectile... may I introduce you to Mr. Hulking Hurler?

term1nally s1ck
2010-03-08, 03:13 AM
Custom-made Nail to the Sky. Sweet.

Bucky
2010-03-08, 03:15 AM
You don't need the giant catapult to make the rope trick work. Just attach the other end of the rope to something large enough that the enemies can't move it. Not as sweet as suspending them in midair, but good enough to take them all out of combat.

Eldan
2010-03-08, 03:16 AM
Sure, you could do that. But it would leave the enemies on the ground, with the area covered by the rope to still move around in. Eventually, they could get rid of the rope.

When they are hanging 100 feet up in the air? Bad idea.

krossbow
2010-03-08, 03:26 AM
Sure... use an enchanted rope, the people are attached to the rope, and would continue to be dragged along with it.

As for someone able to toss a 1.5 ton projectile... may I introduce you to Mr. Hulking Hurler?



Damnit! I KNEW THIS WOULD HAPPEN!

Soonerdj
2010-03-08, 03:43 AM
Hmm there is a weapon in Frostburn that acts like a harpoon but better I think.
Whenever you hit with it you can (as a free action) embed it in them vs. a Reflex save DC 10+damage dealt by attack. It deals the same damage when removed that it did when put in.

I once made a Neanderthal Lion Totem Barbarian / Fighter that carried 12 of these around and would charge -> Full Attack with Power Attack -> Skewer as a Free Action -> Draw a new one as a free action (Quickdraw) -> Repeat.

Person_Man
2010-03-08, 10:38 AM
Hmm there is a weapon in Frostburn that acts like a harpoon but better I think.
Whenever you hit with it you can (as a free action) embed it in them vs. a Reflex save DC 10+damage dealt by attack. It deals the same damage when removed that it did when put in.

You're thinking of the Ritiik. If you successfully hit an enemy, you can twist it to force your enemy to make a Reflex Save (DC = 10 + damage dealt). If they fail, you get a free Trip attempt. Here is the weird part though - unlike the harpoon the ritiik doesn't specifically "lodge itself" into the enemy - but it has similar "the damaged creature can pull the ritiik from it's wound" language. Presumably it's an editing error. Note however that the ritiik is a melee weapon. Although it's superior for Trip builds, it doesn't have a trailing rope, and doesn't limit your enemy's movement beyond the free Trip attempt.

Here's another a few more related combos:

You and a friend each use a harpoons. Stand at opposite ends of an enemy. The enemy can't move in any direction without making an opposed Str check unless it pulls a harpoon out of it.
Buy a mules (8 gp) or some similar large animal (elephant, rhino, etc). Tie rope to animal. Throw harpoon into enemy. Order animal to run in opposite direction.
Tie rope to a very heavy bag. (If your DM doesn't let you use Quickdraw on non-weapons, then have a custom one handed weapon built with elemental loadstones in it). Presumably you have a very high Str, but your target does not. Throw harpoon into enemy. Throw bag over side of cliff or bridge (preferably into trap or lava).
If you have time to set up an ambush, you can put tie the rope to any heavy object in the trees (or random gargoyle, or chandelier, or just install a pulley into the roof). Throw harpoon into enemy. Push heavy object down, forcing your target into the air.
Find a way to further limit your enemy's actions (any spell or effect that nauseates, dazes, staggers, etc). Enemy will be unable to pull harpoon out of them until they get a full round action to do so.

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-03-08, 10:39 AM
How about we leave out the middle man and make the wizard strong enough to lift everyone on the chain in the air. Say polymorph to a Frost Giat and either cast bull strengh or wear a belt of giant str +4 for a strengh of 34 should be effective when you get to caster level 14.

Glimbur
2010-03-08, 10:57 AM
Except you can't drop a cursed weapon.

(Although I guess you can sheath it)

So, the plan is to get a cursed Axiomatic/whatever harpoon, have the party cleric cast Remove Curse but not drop it, and instead next combat you throw it into somebody so when they pull it out they can't drop it? That's... intricate.


You people talking ropes might want to look in to an adamantine cable to make it harder for your foe to just cut themselves free.

Person_Man
2010-03-08, 12:24 PM
So, the plan is to get a cursed Axiomatic/whatever harpoon, have the party cleric cast Remove Curse but not drop it, and instead next combat you throw it into somebody so when they pull it out they can't drop it? That's... intricate.

That sounds like an interesting encounter to use against low level PCs. Have an enemy cleric assassin throw a Cursed harpoon into a PC. PCs fight back, and presumably kill the enemy. But once the PC with the harpoon stuck in his chest removes it, he is incapable of dropping it. Possible solutions include going on a side quest to get Remove Curse, Sundering the weapon, changing alignment, continuing to use the otherwise powerful weapon at the cost of losing a level or following some Curse induced compulsion, etc.

2xMachina
2010-03-08, 01:16 PM
If you want to be evil, add Fleshgrinding, and the ability mentioned somewhere up there, where they attack themselves.

Stab, removes, stabs self. Hand is stuck, while take damage.

sonofzeal
2010-03-08, 01:25 PM
You miiiight want to check out the Kuo-Toa Harpoon (MMV pg 96). It's a pretty nasty piece of work, as it comes complete with "skewer them and drag them towards you" rules.

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-03-08, 03:10 PM
If you want to be evil, add Fleshgrinding, and the ability mentioned somewhere up there, where they attack themselves.

Stab, removes, stabs self. Hand is stuck, while take damage.

Do you mean fleshgrinding or masterslaying?

fleshgrinding contiues to deal your damage once per round for five rounds meaning that your opponent will take damage equivilent to your attack if they don't pull it out and since it's harpoon they take damage pulling it out. +2 enhancement bonus

masterslaying damages the wielder as if they were hit by the wearer of the scabbard when a command word is spoken so right after they take damage for pulling the harpoon out the harpoon attacks them. +1 enhancement bonus

They both have their uses masterslaying much more so than in a standard build. I like the damned if you do damned if you don't aspect of fleshgrinding though inflicting two more hits is just awesome and still has a feel of damned if you do damned if you don't since anyone using harpoons is going to have something nasty instore for anyone who doesn't pull their harpoon out.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-03-08, 04:11 PM
Here is the mostly finished build that sparked all this:


Could you make me the nastiest CR 16 demon you can create? Or, if not a demon, at least some sort of demonic creature (half fiend, fiendish, etc)

Crazy Legs

Half-Marillith Thri-kreen Swordsage 9, Bloodstorm Blade 6
Medium Outsider (native)
Hit Dice: 2d8+6 + 9d12+27 + 6d12+18 (157 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 21 (+4 dex, +7 natural), flat-footed 17, touch 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +17/+22
Attack: Claw +22 melee (1d6+5)
Full Attack: 6 claws +22 melee (1d6+5), Bite +17 melee (1d4+2 plus poison), and Tail Slap +17 melee (3d8+2) or 4 harpoons +18 melee (1d10+5, range 60 ft.), double-bladed sword +17/17 melee (1d8+2/1d8+2 19-20x2), 1d8+2 Bite +17 melee (1d4+2 plus poison), and Tail Slap +17 melee (3d8+2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Battle ardor, battle cunning, blood wind ricochet, lightening ricochet, maneuvers and stances, martial throw, poison, psi-like abilities, smite good, spell-like abilities, thunderous throw, uncanny dodge
Special Qualities: damage reduction 5/good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to poison and sleep, improved uncanny dodge, naturally psionic, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +8 (+10 if not flat-footed), Will +8
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 19, Con 16, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 14
Skills: Concentration +18, Balance +24, Hide +24 (+28 in arid or sandy terrain), Jump +55, Listen +9, Spot +11, Tumble +19
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Far Shot, Grasshopper Strike (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Grasshopper_Strike), Improved Multiweapon Fighting, Leap of the Heavens (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Leap_Of_The_Heavens), Mobility, Multiweapon Fighting, Point Blank Shot, Quick Draw, Spring Attack, Throw Anything (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Throw_Anything)
Challenge Rating: 16
Possessions:
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +4

This horrible being appears as a six-armed thri-kreen with an incredibly long ovipositor upon which it slithers snake-like. It has six arms ending in talons, and two thick, powerful springing legs which fold up alongside the body as it moves. The human-like face is female, and covered covered in a flexible exoskeleton. Her large, golden eyes sparkle like a diamond, displaying many facets.

Combat

Battle Ardor (Ex): As Tome of Battle, p. 22.

Battle Cunning (Ex): As Tome of Battle, p. 23.

Blood Wind Ricochet (Ex): As Tome of Battle, p. 101.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): As Rogue Ability.

Lightning Ricochet (Ex): As Tome of Battle, p. 101.

Maneuvers & Stances Known (IL 9th):
Stances - Absolute Steel Stance (3rd), Blood In the Water (1st)
Strikes - Bounding Assault(DM4), Claw At the Moon(TC2), Death From Above(TC4), Sapphire Nightmare Blade (DM1), Steel Wind (IH1)
Boosts - Dancing Mongoose(TC5), Moment of Alacrity (DM6), Sudden Leap(TC1)
Disciplines: Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Tiger Claw

Martial Throw (Ex): As Tome of Battle, p. 101.

Naturally Psionic (Ex): Crazy Legs gains 1 bonus power point.

Psi-like Abilities: Manifest level 8th. Save DC's are Charisma-based.
1/day - Psionic Displacement, Metaphysical Claw
3/day - Chameleon, Know Direction

Poison (Ex): 1/day - bite, initial damage 1d6 Dex, secondary damage paralysis, DC 14.

Smite Good (Su): Once per day Crazy Legs can make a normal melee attack to deal 16 extra damage against a good foe.

Spell-like Abilities: Caster level 16th. Save DC's are Charisma-based.
1/day - Blade Barrier, Telekinesis, Greater Teleport
3/day - Align Weapon, Magic Weapon, See Invisibility

Thunderous Throw (Ex): As Tome of Battle, p. 101.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): As Rogue ability.

Ormagoden
2010-03-08, 04:48 PM
not to burst your collective bubble but


FLESHGRINDING
Price: +2 bonus
Property: Piercing or slashing melee
weapon
Caster Level: 11th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 20) transmutation
Activation: Free (command)

Emphasis mine.

Sadly a harpoon is an exotic ranged weapon.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-03-08, 04:54 PM
not to burst your collective bubble but

Emphasis mine.

Sadly a harpoon is an exotic ranged weapon.
A harpoon can also be used as a spear.

Grumman
2010-03-08, 04:58 PM
A harpoon can also be used as a spear.
Do you have evidence of this claim?

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-03-08, 05:05 PM
Do you have evidence of this claim?
It's description is that of a 'barbed spear'.

Cute_Riolu
2010-03-08, 05:08 PM
Yes. Yes he does. It's called thrusting a long pointy object.

Edit: Ack! Vorpal Ninjas!

Person_Man
2010-03-08, 05:30 PM
Just looked up the description of Masterslaying (BoVD p112, 3.0 material btw) on crystalkeep:


On the command of the person wearing the weapon’s scabbard / belt hook, the weapon will attack its current holder at the Base Attack Bonus of the scabbard wearer. The target is considered Flat-Footed (but the weapon cannot do a ‘sneak attack’). If the weapon hits, it does a Critical Hit.

Time for a Fleshgrinding Masterslaying Tentacle (On a critical hit, the opponent’s brain is pulled out unless it makes a Fortitude save vs. DC 21) harpoon...

Also, while I doubt that a DM would allow it due to the Sneak Attack exclusion, I wonder if by RAW you could roll for Iaijutsu Focus damage? The weapon is being drawn from a scabbard (your enemy's chest) and they are flat footed.

herrhauptmann
2010-03-08, 10:18 PM
Except you can't drop a cursed weapon.

(Although I guess you can sheath it)

Being an aligned weapon (holy, anarchic, axiomatic etc) weapon doesn't make it cursed. It only punishes people from using it if they're not the right alignment. They get a negative level so long as they're wielding it (holding it unsheathed).
A weapon that can't be dropped, or one that you keep drawing even when you want to draw a different one, IS cursed, but that's a whole other thing than alignment weapons.
You can however, make one of those INTO a cursed weapon like the backbiting spear...

BoVD is 3.0, but still valid since it was never updated to 3.5.

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-03-09, 12:45 AM
I'm working on a build to capitalize on some of this I think I'm gonna go with masterslaying weapons to capitalize of battlefield control leaving harpoons in enemies for trip attempts and limiting movement and forcing them to spend actions to get them out. Right now I'm looking at warblade 5/Master thrower1(trip trick)/BSB 10 possibly with templates to help him with tripping and making opposed str checks. I'm not sure how best to finish the build more Warblade comes to mind but it might not be the best option since BSB doesn't progress initiator lvl fully I'm not sure it's the best option though lvl 6 manuevers at ecl 16-18 are still nothing to sneeze at.