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Dyllan
2010-03-07, 10:54 AM
Is there any reason I can't put Scorching Ray into a Spell Storing weapon? It seems a bit overpowered, but also looks legal unless I'm missing something.

If I can't, can you point me to the rules or ruling that explains why?

Thanks.

tyckspoon
2010-03-07, 11:22 AM
Spell Storing requires a targeted spell. Scorching Ray (and most other straight damage spells) is not targeted- there is a game-rule difference between a targeted spell and one that you simply launch at some chosen targets. A targeted spell is one like Hold Person; it has a Target(s) line and it just doesn't work at all if you don't select a target for it. A non-targeted spell like Scorching Ray creates some other effect, which you then direct where you want it. You can cast Scorching Ray and fire them all off aimlessly into the air if you want.

That said, Scorching Ray/Shocking Grasp/Inflict X Wounds are the kinds of things you really ought to be able to put into a Spell Storing weapon, and it's not especially overpowered to allow it.

2xMachina
2010-03-07, 11:26 AM
Cure X Wounds on weapons lol. Healing Shiv FTW.

Dyllan
2010-03-07, 11:27 AM
Spell Storing requires a targeted spell. Scorching Ray (and most other straight damage spells) is not targeted- there is a game-rule difference between a targeted spell and one that you simply launch at some chosen targets. A targeted spell is one like Hold Person; it has a Target(s) line and it just doesn't work at all if you don't select a target for it. A non-targeted spell like Scorching Ray creates some other effect, which you then direct where you want it. You can cast Scorching Ray and fire them all off aimlessly into the air if you want.

That said, Scorching Ray/Shocking Grasp/Inflict X Wounds are the kinds of things you really ought to be able to put into a Spell Storing weapon, and it's not especially overpowered to allow it.

Thanks for the clarification, but I must disagree about it not being overpowered to be able to put a Scorching Ray into a weapon, and then allow someone to attack and unleash an extra 12d6 damage if they have a level 11 wizard or sorcerer ready to cast it for them (or if you interpret it to release the spell at CL 12, as that is the CL of the item). If there's a sorcerer in the party (as there is in ours) throwing a few extra, or even a lot of extra, second level spells into swords every day doesn't phase him at all.

And if you get a two-weapon fighter with quick draw, there's no reason you can't make a dozen or so +1 daggers of spell storing, and drop them after using the spell. You could easily full attack for the first few rounds of combat, doing 1d4+12d6 fire+1+str bonus with each hit.

I'm glad to hear that isn't legal. Now I just have to explain it to my players.

KellKheraptis
2010-03-07, 11:29 AM
IIRC Combust has been used with this and Smiting Spell to create the conflagration from hell. At least that's what I would put on the King of Combustion (along with Elven Spell Lore to make it hellfire).

Demons_eye
2010-03-07, 11:30 AM
Duskblade basically get this as a class feature so its not as overpowered as people think.

2xMachina
2010-03-07, 11:40 AM
Thanks for the clarification, but I must disagree about it not being overpowered to be able to put a Scorching Ray into a weapon, and then allow someone to attack and unleash an extra 12d6 damage if they have a level 11 wizard or sorcerer ready to cast it for them (or if you interpret it to release the spell at CL 12, as that is the CL of the item). If there's a sorcerer in the party (as there is in ours) throwing a few extra, or even a lot of extra, second level spells into swords every day doesn't phase him at all.

And if you get a two-weapon fighter with quick draw, there's no reason you can't make a dozen or so +1 daggers of spell storing, and drop them after using the spell. You could easily full attack for the first few rounds of combat, doing 1d4+12d6 fire+1+str bonus with each hit.

I'm glad to hear that isn't legal. Now I just have to explain it to my players.

You can still chuck Inflict Serious Wounds in it though. 3d8+12 is still a bunch of damage. And it's legal.

Thinker
2010-03-07, 11:40 AM
Thanks for the clarification, but I must disagree about it not being overpowered to be able to put a Scorching Ray into a weapon, and then allow someone to attack and unleash an extra 12d6 damage if they have a level 11 wizard or sorcerer ready to cast it for them (or if you interpret it to release the spell at CL 12, as that is the CL of the item). If there's a sorcerer in the party (as there is in ours) throwing a few extra, or even a lot of extra, second level spells into swords every day doesn't phase him at all.

And if you get a two-weapon fighter with quick draw, there's no reason you can't make a dozen or so +1 daggers of spell storing, and drop them after using the spell. You could easily full attack for the first few rounds of combat, doing 1d4+12d6 fire+1+str bonus with each hit.

I'm glad to hear that isn't legal. Now I just have to explain it to my players.
Are you really suggesting that an extra 12 to 72 damage (average 44) on a single attack is overpowered at level 11, even with the drawback of the sorcerer's spell slots not doing something more useful?

KellKheraptis
2010-03-07, 11:44 AM
Are you really suggesting that an extra 12 to 72 damage (average 44) on a single attack is overpowered at level 11, even with the drawback of the sorcerer's spell slots not doing something more useful?

I think a good deal of that is people having a knee-jerk reaction to seeing "12d6" and "melee attack" in the same sentence. The ironic part is they also probably allow the "+100 or more to each attack" charge tactics without thinking twice, going "well, they're melee, they are supposed to hurt." They just don't seem to grasp that spells can (usually) do it better.

Dyllan
2010-03-07, 11:54 AM
Are you really suggesting that an extra 12 to 72 damage (average 44) on a single attack is overpowered at level 11, even with the drawback of the sorcerer's spell slots not doing something more useful?

I suppose I should add that we're running a Core only (PHB, DMG, MM) campaign, so the damage output of the party is substantially lower than a "every book is fine" campaign.

And I'm suggesting that an enchantment that allows a weapon to do 12d6 fire damage with minimal restrictions is overpowered when priced the same as an enchantment that adds 1d6 fire damage with no restrictions. If it was a +2 equivalent enchantment, I wouldn't think so. But, you can't use Scorching Ray in it, so in core I'd say it's pretty well balanced at +1.

2xMachina
2010-03-07, 11:59 AM
It also needs 1 spell slot.

The 1d6 works the whole day. Your spell storing weapon needs to be charged every time you use it.

All it does is abuse action economy so your blaster wiz can chuck in more damage spells in 1 round.

tyckspoon
2010-03-07, 12:04 PM
You can still chuck Inflict Serious Wounds in it though. 3d8+12 is still a bunch of damage. And it's legal.

Clerics usually have more important things to do with their spell slots than dump Inflicts into weapons, but yeah, that works. I'd forgotten the Cure/Inflict spells are technically targeted because most target spells don't use attack rolls.

Thinker
2010-03-07, 12:28 PM
I suppose I should add that we're running a Core only (PHB, DMG, MM) campaign, so the damage output of the party is substantially lower than a "every book is fine" campaign.

And I'm suggesting that an enchantment that allows a weapon to do 12d6 fire damage with minimal restrictions is overpowered when priced the same as an enchantment that adds 1d6 fire damage with no restrictions. If it was a +2 equivalent enchantment, I wouldn't think so. But, you can't use Scorching Ray in it, so in core I'd say it's pretty well balanced at +1.

Right and in core it is easy to do more than >12d6 damage at level 11. I think you're undervaluing the usefulness of the sorcerer's spell slots if they're not used to constantly charge spell-storing weapons. They also only work once before needing to be recharged (and thus costing actions).

Anyway, as you said, scorching ray doesn't matter because it doesn't work. Good luck with your game.

Dyllan
2010-03-07, 12:36 PM
Right and in core it is easy to do more than >12d6 damage at level 11. I think you're undervaluing the usefulness of the sorcerer's spell slots if they're not used to constantly charge spell-storing weapons. They also only work once before needing to be recharged (and thus costing actions).

Anyway, as you said, scorching ray doesn't matter because it doesn't work. Good luck with your game.

Well, the sorcerer almost never uses all his level 2 and 3 spell slots, so it's virtually a free resource (or at least an untapped one) at this point. And I'm not talking about doing 12d6 damage, I'm talking about doing an extra 12d6 damage (or 11d6 over the 1d6 normal fire enchantment he could get) - he'll still do all the damage he'd normally do with the attack. I get that it's only one round, but unless the battle goes 12 rounds, it's still more damage than a fire sword per combat. And doing it all up front is a tactical advantage. But at this point, we're discussing something we already know is moot.

Yuki Akuma
2010-03-07, 12:39 PM
I think a good deal of that is people having a knee-jerk reaction to seeing "12d6" and "melee attack" in the same sentence. The ironic part is they also probably allow the "+100 or more to each attack" charge tactics without thinking twice, going "well, they're melee, they are supposed to hurt." They just don't seem to grasp that spells can (usually) do it better.

No, actually, spells generally can't do it better.

Spells deal variable damage. Rather than a melee attack doing, say, 2d6+54 damage, a spell might deal, say, 11d6 damage - both have the same maximum, but melee is on average dealing a lot more damage.

Plus spells have slots, and melee attacks don't. :smallwink:

Throwing around a huge number of dice is pretty meaningless - even 20d6 only has an average damage of 70. Flat damage bonuses are better than bonus dice.

Thrawn183
2010-03-07, 01:08 PM
Duskblade basically get this as a class feature so its not as overpowered as people think.

Duskblades get to channel touch spells, not ranged touch spells, so a Duskblade could not in fact channel a scorching ray through a melee attack.

arguskos
2010-03-07, 01:23 PM
Duskblades get to channel touch spells, not ranged touch spells, so a Duskblade could not in fact channel a scorching ray through a melee attack.
Yes, but the concept of tossing damage spells into weapons, then whacking people with them ala Duskblade isn't OP in anyway.

Also, I think there is a way to get rays in your weapons. I'm trying to recall how I saw it done, but it's not coming to me...

WAIT! I've got it. Spellblade (Scorching Ray). :smallcool:

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-07, 01:45 PM
Duskblades get to channel touch spells, not ranged touch spells, so a Duskblade could not in fact channel a scorching ray through a melee attack.

Beat me to it, though I'm wondering why it took so many posts to point this out.


No one wants to see someone Channel Disintegrate with Full BAB.

ericgrau
2010-03-07, 01:49 PM
Cure X Wounds on weapons lol. Healing Shiv FTW.

I actually have one of these.

For offensive spells try inflict X wounds, vampiric touch (at high levels), empowered shocking grasp and poison.

Flickerdart
2010-03-07, 01:49 PM
It's not like a touch attack is hard to make even at half-BAB.

Beorn080
2010-03-07, 02:54 PM
I think the guy with the dagger idea had it right. Could be real fun too if you use alternate materials. Healing shivs made out of bone for minimal damage.

DM "You see bob get stabbed and collapse"
Fighter "I full attack him with thrown bone daggers of spell storing with Cure Crit stored"

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-07, 03:09 PM
I think the guy with the dagger idea had it right. Could be real fun too if you use alternate materials. Healing shivs made out of bone for minimal damage.

DM "You see bob get stabbed and collapse"
Fighter "I full attack him with thrown bone daggers of spell storing with Cure Crit stored"

The problem is the weapon damage triggers before the spell does. You could potentially kill them before they get healed.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-07, 03:13 PM
Fell Drain Magic Missile in it.

5d4+5+neg level.